Smallest Elephant Cartridge


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Action_Can_Do
August 1, 2006, 01:29 AM
Hello Everyone. I was hoping to find out what the smallest legal elephant hunting cartridge is and what the most common one is. I realize that the law probably varies country to country, but I figure there must be a general standard.

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carpettbaggerr
August 1, 2006, 02:52 AM
Ivory hunter Karamojo Bell killed more than 1,000 elephants with a .275 Rigby (common name - 7x57 Mauser).

http://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2006/05/picking-airgun-caliber.html

Dr.Rob
August 1, 2006, 03:43 AM
"smallest legal elephant hunting cartridge"

.375 H&H is THE MINIMUM for dangerous game in most countries.

If you can afford an elephant hunt you can likely afford a pricier rifle and caliber.

mete
August 1, 2006, 06:03 AM
While Bell used a 7x57 or 6.5 Mannlicher ,don't leave out the rest of the story. He was one of the best shots in Africa ,he knew elephant anatomy better than anyone else, so he could place FMJ bullets into the brain from any angle .Those two cartridges DO penetrate very well.....Today the sensible and legal minimum is the 375 H&H. Other common ones are the 416 Rigby, 458 Win, 470.

uk roe hunter
August 1, 2006, 12:37 PM
Sadly i think most elephants are shot with 7.62 x 39 bursts from an AK these days.:uhoh:

'Card
August 1, 2006, 03:35 PM
http://home.online.no/~kgroenn/disney/dumbo/dumbo18.gif

I'm thinking 12-gauge #6 birdshot may be the way to go on this one.

Impala
August 1, 2006, 03:55 PM
oh god, not dumbo, for him you'll need a quad .50 with anti-aircraft sights.

In the June issue of G&A there was an article entitled "The Modern African Battery" the smallest cartridge I think the author mentioned was a .325 WSM, but I may be wrong

Spec ops Grunt
August 1, 2006, 05:03 PM
I at least want a .375 H&H. I still don't see why anyone would want to kill an elephant.

Dave P
August 1, 2006, 05:16 PM
"Smallest Elephant"

Didn't PT barnum have the worlds smallest?

Do you need a special lisence for the small ones? I have heard that a 22 behind the ear is all you need. :neener:

H&Hhunter
August 1, 2006, 11:19 PM
The minimum caliber for elephant in most countries is a .375H&H. A few countries allow a 9.3.

Depending on where you are hunting will depend on what a sensible minimum should be.

In the thick jesse a hard hitting .458 Diameter such as the Lott, Rigby, Dakota ETC are a sensible minimum. Some even recommend nothing smaller than a .500 for these conditions. The .416 Rigby is also a fine choice in my opinon.

I have never felt under gunned with a .458 Lott or a .470NE using quality solids.

In more open country a .375 is just great if and only if you know exactly how to place a brain shot from any angle. The .375 has plenty of penetration but it doesn't have any stop on an elephant. A .500NE will knock an elephant off of it's feet even if the brain is missed.

UK Roe hunter,

Your statement is only very marginally true. There are certain areas where elephant poaching is still rampant. Mostly in Kenya the Sudan and the Congo. These countries all have one thing in common. They do not allow legal sport hunting of elephants and or are having a war in progress.

Areas that allow sport hunting of elephants have very little or no poaching they have abundant and growing elephant populations and in fact some of these countries such as Zimbabwe, Botswana, Namibia, South Africa, and Zambia have elephant overpopulation problems at the present time.

Spec ops grunt,

That is why we should hunt elephants. Because hunting assigns monetary value to a natural resource , in this case elephants, through license fees and jobs associated with the hunting of said species. When an animal becomes valuable as a natural and renewable resource it becomes financially sound and profitable to protect and grow said resource.

If the animal has no monetary value besides a quick buck from some ivory it will be wiped out such as it has been in anithunter friendly Kenya and other non sport hunting African countries.

I hope that helps to answer your question as to why anybody would want to hunt an elephant.

Greg

uk roe hunter
August 2, 2006, 05:48 AM
Hi Greg,
i watched a documentrty the other day on tv about over population of elephant and the value of hunting, i agree it is the way forward to give them a monetry value higher for them hunted then for ivory.

steve

H&Hhunter
August 2, 2006, 12:16 PM
Steve,

Thank you for your reply.

That sport hunting actually protects and improves the long term survivability of a species is a very difficult concept for people understand.

Even the vast majority of hunters in the USA don't understand it because we don't have a trophy fee system as is used in Africa where one pays a license fee then pays a daily fee to hunt and if successful pays a fee for each animal collected.

In the USA we just pay a license fee which is very minimal for residents of the state in which the hunting is done. It is very difficult for the average hunter to understand that with out his license fee's and the fee's collected in taxes from his sporting goods purchases we would have far fewer game animals and more importantly less open country to hunt them.

Our fee system here in the USA is very transparent when compared to many other hunting locations.

I would guess that in the UK one must pay the land owner a daily fee and a collection fee for his buck?

In Africa there are three types of areas generally hunted. Private ranches, Government hunting blocks and communal areas. In the last two types of areas they are usually vast blocks of land with little or no human inhabitation. And they are kept wild and uninhabited with fees from sport hunters and sport hunters fees ONLY.

Without these fees these vast tracts of land would have been settled long ago and the animals would have disappeared. In cases like Kenya where this has happened due to the cessation of sport hunting. There are no wild animals left outside of their various national and private game parks.

If the international anti hunting lobby ever gets it s way and stops sport hunting in Africa there will be a massive and rapid kill off of most of the continents remaining wild game. It's been proven time and again.:(

Double Naught Spy
August 2, 2006, 01:26 PM
Are you hunting small elephants?
http://thestar.com.my/news/list.asp?file=/2003/9/4/nation/6201264&sec=nation

pat86323
August 2, 2006, 02:14 PM
Ok im really not trying to be unpleasant or a joykill here, but we need to keep in mind.....NOTHING WE CARRY WILL KNOCK DOWN AN ELEPHANT! In order to consistantly knock down anything big game sized the cardridge that you are shooting would be so powerful that no one would ever shoot it for fear of their own lives. Its a simple lesson of physics "every action has an equal and opposite reaction" So a cartridge capable of knocking down an elephant would flip a jeep when you pulled the trigger. Same as a cardridge that would knock down a deer would send an average sized man bouncing probably 5 or six feet back.
I know that this post is sorta irrelevant....but i keep seeing things about rounds thatl "take said target off of its feet". And for some reason i just really felt the need to post the little physics lesson. Think about that the next time someone tells you about how a 300 winmag will send a deer bouncing.

Matt G
August 2, 2006, 03:34 PM
Pat, of course you're absolutely correct. Nothing man-carried will literally blow an elephant off of it's feet. :) Nor, despite Hollywood's insistence to the contrary, will anything short of high-explosive rounds lift a man out of his tracks.

But I feel compelled to answer for Greg (H&H Hunter), who had said, "A .500NE will knock an elephant off of it's feet even if the brain is missed."

Greg is knowledgible, and knows the physics involved (trust me!). What he means is, a hit to the head --but not the brain-- will still cause enough shock to the animal that it will keel over. Often central nervous system shocks cause quadrapeds to stiffen their legs and literally tip over, giving the very real impression of having "knocked them off their feet."

While it is true that Greg is referring to that odd calculus that we call "knockdown power," he is NOT trying to claim that a one-ounce projectile can drive a 7 ton critter off the ground for any distance. But the hephalump will most assuredly NOT be on its feet when the dust settles. :)

Spec ops Grunt
August 2, 2006, 06:34 PM
I can understand hunting for population control, or for food. I just don't see the point to trophy hunting.

Oldnamvet
August 2, 2006, 07:00 PM
The game isn't thrown away. It is still eaten and since it is a licensed kill, it is population control. Some hunters just like to keep something of the animal to remember it. So they have it mounted, have the hide tanned, etc. If they don't see a trophy animal, many times they don't shoot anything. The challenge is everything.

A recent story on elephants and how agressive they have become, killing about 600 people a year, was interesting. Seems like they had been culling the herds for years, always taking the big bulls. So the young bulls had no one to teach them "respect" and they were overly agressive. Took to killing people just for the hell of it. Sort of like how some game law violators operate.

mete
August 2, 2006, 08:24 PM
Protein is never wasted in Africa.On one of the TV programs they showed that after the elephant was killed a swarm of villagers came and cut up the meat .That was a BIG job. The meat was greatly appreciated !!

T.R.
August 2, 2006, 10:07 PM
Several decades ago, Eleanor O'Connor took a good sized bull with Jack's 30-06. The bullets were machined from solid bronze and heat treated with a torch and quench tank.

Just shows what a tough bullet and proper shot placement can be accomplished with the old 30-06!!
TR

H&Hhunter
August 2, 2006, 10:55 PM
Pat,

What Matt said...

I am refering to stopping an elephant with a head shot. The .500 and up express and nitro calibers give a hunter a much wider margin of error in regards to a head shot. Which is the ONLY way to stop a charging elephant.

The larger the diameter heavier bullets cause a greater radius of brain shock in an elephants skull which gives greater "knock down" ability when faced with a charge. For example as rule of thumb a .500NE will allow a hunter to miss the brain by as much as 6 or 8 inches and still put down a bull elephant where a .375H&H must contact brain matter to do the same.

What you said is absolutely correct there is nothing we use in sport hunting that will knock an elephant off it's feet with out breaking major bone or hitting or shocking the brain or CNS.

If you are truly interested in this there is a great instructional video out on elephant hunting, shot placement and the difference in calibers on elephants in regards to what we are speaking about. It can be found at www.cmsafaris.com

There is a HUGE difference in stopping ability between even a .470 NE and a .500NE it is truly amazing watch.

TomFromTheShade
August 3, 2006, 04:49 AM
I wouldn't hesitate to shoot my .375 Holland & Holland. I have faith that it would get where it needs to go. I have shot end to end through anything it has ever hit. I haven't ever shot anything the bulk of an elephant before, but I would give it a shot...or four LOL.

Double Naught Spy
August 3, 2006, 08:37 AM
Protein is never wasted in Africa.On one of the TV programs they showed that after the elephant was killed a swarm of villagers came and cut up the meat .That was a BIG job. The meat was greatly appreciated !!

I am not sure what you mean by the meat not being wasted. Something will eat it, but it isn't always people. It may be that canned hunts are set up such that kill surplus is used by locals, but this isn't the case with poaching or the killing of taboo animals. Protein is most definitely not always utilized fully by people, especially when they don't know about it or have an aversion to consuming what is killing.

H&Hhunter
August 3, 2006, 11:03 PM
I am not sure what you mean by the meat not being wasted. Something will eat it, but it isn't always people. It may be that canned hunts are set up such that kill surplus is used by locals, but this isn't the case with poaching or the killing of taboo animals.

Double,

Since you seem to be a bona fide African lore and taboo expert could you please supply us here at THR with a list of "taboo" animals. Please do so by region and tribe starting in the cape and working north to the Mediterranean.

Or even just one example would be fine. Tarzan movies don't count.

Who here was refering to canned hunting? That is pretty hard to arrange with elephant, with a few exceptions in the republic of South Africa.

PS

Did you ever come up with an answer to my previous question about your feelings towards animal rights?

Kahr T9
August 4, 2006, 11:18 AM
Fred Bear killed an elephant with a recurve bow and arrow...of course each component was custom made for the job. The bow was a 75 lb pull and the arrows were oversized in length and diameter to get enough mass for penetration. Certainly, a couple of back up gunners can give you the courage to try something like this. :what:

USMC_2674
August 4, 2006, 05:20 PM
Visit the excalibur crossbow website to see footage of an elephant being killed with one of their crossbows.

Someone has to say it.

Even a .22 LR will put an elephant down if you shoot it in just the right place ;)

Semper Fidelis!

H&Hhunter
August 4, 2006, 10:23 PM
Even a .22 LR will put an elephant down if you shoot it in just the right place

There ALWAYS has to be one!:rolleyes:

Lets put it in terms even a Marine can understand. One man can kill a tank with a 9mm handgun if he plans it right. Please be my guest.:D

killzone
August 5, 2006, 02:57 PM
I think the 800 grains .50BMG AP would easly kill him...

The question is - does it still have to be a brain or close to brain shot? What would happen if you hit him else where,,,

H&Hhunter
August 5, 2006, 05:21 PM
Killzone,

No the brain does not have to be hit to kill an elephant. They will die just like any other mammal with a heart lung shot. It just takes a while and of course the body shot is not useful in stopping a charge.

If one can break a leg bone on an elephant that anchors them. An elephant can not walk on three legs.

As far as the .50 BMG yes it kills elephants very efficiently HOWEVER they are a bit cumbersome to carry in the field and they lack entirely on handling qualities. They are meant to be fired prone.

It is pretty tough to swing a shoulder fired .50 into action at close range and snap shoot a charging elephant. And during a fast action shooting situation you really don’t have time to deploy a bipod lay down and shoot. Of course it is fun to talk about but they are entirely useless as a big game sporting weapon.;)

They would be a very useful culling tool one could set up on a high ridge and slaughter ole tembo by the thousands if one needed to I guess. But that isn’t hunting it’s culling a totally different operation.:(

Of course with some of the attitudes I see on this web sight towards sport hunting of elephants you are going to see more and more culling as the population of elephants continues to out strip and out pace the available range in modern Africa.

Either we as sport hunter do it or the culling teams and mother nature will.

Anthony T.
August 5, 2006, 06:21 PM
I did'nt take the time to read this but I think .375 is the minimum for african D game. I'd personally use a 375 holland or 416 rigby. Maybe find one of those 700 nitros in a double barrel elephant rifle. Poor shouder.:D

MCgunner
August 5, 2006, 07:13 PM
Umm, I'll stay here and hunt feeders for deer. I can almost afford that...:rolleyes: Well, I can afford it depending on the price of gas that week. :scrutiny: I've read that the various 7 mags were popular for antelope over there. Not dangerous game, of course, but goes along with the "African battery" thing.

I guess a Barrett would work. A might slow to the shoulder, considering the weight, but I don't think I'd wanna shoot a .50 BMG in a 6 lb gun. :scrutiny:

It is pretty tough to swing a shoulder fired .50 into action at close range and snap shoot a charging elephant.

Umm, like I said, I'll keep hunting my feeder. It's easier on clothing, not so many brown stains for the wife to get out. I'll continue to stalk the killer hog for dangerous thrills, or race fast motorcycles. Don't need to become goo between some elephant's toes. :D

usmccpl
August 15, 2006, 08:19 PM
In a book I read once it talked about Bell and not only did he use the 7x57 but he also used a 303 and a 318. At the time the book was printed he still had the record for most elephants killed.

H&Hhunter
August 15, 2006, 10:17 PM
Bell also used a .256 Rigby on occasion.

But I believe that John Pondoro taylor described Mr. Bell's small bore antics best when described Mr Bell as being extremely lucky to have survived.

The other thing no one likes to remember about Walter Bell was that he recomended and used a .416 Rigby for hunting elephant in thick cover or for following up a wounded elephant.

And of course he must have bee a phenominal shot to have pulled off what he did.
:)

HankB
August 16, 2006, 01:40 PM
For example as rule of thumb a .500NE will allow a hunter to miss the brain by as much as 6 or 8 inches and still put down a bull elephant where a .375H&H must contact brain matter to do the same. John "Pondoro" Taylor said something of the sort in his writings, but I'm not aware of anyone - even Taylor - who put numbers into such a refined model. What's the source of this "rule of thumb" and what sort of methodology was used? Enquiring minds want to know, since it would take shooting a heck of a lot of elephants and doing a heck of a lot of autopsies, and tabulating the results, to come up with actual numbers. :confused:

(In the "Africa's Black Death" video, controversial PH Mark Sullivan shoots a number of Cape buff with a .500 . . . it was effective, true, but it wasn't exactly like smiting the critters with the hammer of Thor.)

BTW, there ARE some "taboo" animals . . . one example I know of is in the Mwanya portion of Zambia's Luangwa Valley, right around Yakobi, where the natives won't eat hippo . . . and they don't even want to skin a hyena in the same area they skin "eating" animals like bushbuck and impala.

In large parts of North Africa they won't have anything to do with warthogs - religious grounds, obviously. (High Moslem populations.)

steveracer
August 16, 2006, 02:29 PM
Pretty sure about that one.
But .375 is more realistic.

H&Hhunter
August 16, 2006, 04:14 PM
Hank,

No scientific data. There never has been a true scientific study on this subject so how would you expect ME to present you with a double blind study on it?

This is not a "refined" number in anyway shape or form. I never claimed it to be. It is rather based on multiple opinions from some of the most experienced elephant hunters alive today. Buzz Chilton and Johan Colitz to name a few. The 6 to 8" number is an estimation. Anytime you are dealing with bullet and caliber performance on live game there is a great deal of variability. So we must speak in generalities thus the reference to a "rule of thumb" otherwise known as an educated guess. an estimation or a SWAG. There is nobody alive that can say with definitive proof that a such and such caliber when missing the brain by 6Ē or *Ē will always or will never knock the elephant down. I am a bit surprised that it was taken as such. It is a known fact However that a larger caliber will generally give you a wider area of knock down than a smaller one on a head shot on elephant.

If you are interested in this subject I would once again recommend that you buy Buzz Chiltonís video on elephant hunting available at www.cmsfaris.com.

As far as your reference to Mark (snuff flick) Sullivan and his .500 sequences on buffalo. You are talking about an entirely different subject. Body shooting buffalo is not the same thing as head shooting elephant.

We are talking about shock effect on an elephants brain. Which of course an experienced hunter like you knows is an entirely different subject.

I can tell you this however. I've witnessed consecutive kills on buffalo with .470, 458Lott and a .500 Jefferys. There is a major difference in observed effect with the .500.

As far as taboo animals go of course there are some taboo animals with different tribes, that was my point. There are thousands of tribes with thousands of legends, loreís and taboos, which one was Mr. Spy refering to? There are also tribes that will eat anything and everything so who exactly who was Mr. spy refering? Also in what manner was he refering to only "canned" hunts feeding people. That may have been one of the most ridiculous statements I've yet seen on this sight. But Mr. Spy never fails to amaze me with some of the stuff he come up with. yet he is free to post just as I am free to question it

Hank, it all boils down to personal experience and to use what works for you. As we've discussed in the past I don't think your choice of a push feed .375H&H with a fixed 6 power scope is a wise choice for hunting dangerous game. But it works for you so my opinion on the subject doesn't really matter to you. Anybody is free to take my opinion and use it or discard it as they'd like. It doesn't affect me either way. But I will continue to write about one of my true passions in life and that is big game hunting with heavy rifles. For what it's worth you can either read it or choose to ignore it. That is the beauty of a public web sight.

Sometimes when I write on this sight I feel that if I donít over explain every little detail it will come back to me. This is proving true more and more often. For some of you Iíve become a target. One thing I can promise you is that some of you will not agree with me, some of you will, some of you will be insulted by me because I donít pull my punches and I will never censure my writing with political correctness. Please rest assured however, that it is not my intent to ever give bad information and I always try to back up my information with facts. And I will defend what I know to be true and what I know to be right.:) :)

You will not receive a reply from until after Monday the 21st as I am off to Texas to shoot hogs with a heavy caliber rifles.
;)
God bless America

And use whatever you want when hunting elephants. But please try and enjoy yourself, life is short and good health fleeting.

Greg

HankB
August 16, 2006, 05:38 PM
H&H, chill . . .

When I see someone quote specific numbers (like 6" - 8" from the brain to down an elephant) I just figure that there's some reason things were quantified - IIRC, Pondoro just said words to the effect that "a near miss" of the brain from a large caliber would knock out an elephant for a while whereas the same shot placement with a lesser caliber wouldn't. Taylor didn't define "near" so it could have meant 1 inch or 1 foot. If someone with Taylor's experience didn't quantify it, I was wondering about the background and basis of the person(s) who had.

Never having taken a jumbo myself, I'm in no position to debate from my own experience what will and what won't "knock out" an elephant - but I'm always interested in learning from those who do have extensive experience. And many of them don't seem to write much, if at all, about "knock out" with a near miss to the brain. That's why the figure you referenced piqued my interest - I hoped it might be based on something more than " . . . an educated guess. an estimation or a SWAG . . ."

Note that I allowed as Mark Sullivan was "controversial" . . . I suspect that over a couple of beers we'd find much to agree on regarding him . . . and I've seen buff downed by the "little" .375 that crumpled just as definitively - if not more so - than most of those in Sullivan's flick. Body shot on buff isn't the same as a head shot on elephant, but it's the kind of thing that makes you go "Hmmm . . . " (BTW, though I very much love the .375, I hope you don't think I'm implying the .375 hits like a .500, or even a .470 or .458 - it clearly doesn't. Caliber is important, but IMHO above some threshold, which will certainly vary from one animal species to the next, bullet placement means a whole lot more than caliber.)

And when you asked Double about "taboo" animals, I thought it was a genuine inquiry, so I weighed in with what I knew in that regard . . . And yes, with very few exceptions all protein is consumed, the animals taken either serving as camp meat or shared out with the locals, as I've seen first hand. Little or no waste.

As far as Double's other points were concerned, other than some scandalous "canned" lion hunts in RSA several years ago with old circus lions (and rumors of the same in Namibia,) I'm unaware of any "canned" hunts in Africa.

H&H, I think we agree on many things, and will continue to disagree on a few others, but we've been able to keep things civil . . . enjoy your hunt in Texas (thanks for spending money in my state! ;) ) and be sure to post pictures when you get home.

p35
August 30, 2006, 03:17 PM
Peter Capstick, in one of his books, told the story of a couple jokers who killed two elephant with a .22 LR just behind a front leg where it reached the arteries near the heart. Back around 1900 IIRC. The first was more or less an accident while trying to scare it off, the second was with witnesses to prove they weren't lying about the first. Not a great idea, but apparently it has happened.

claywt
August 30, 2006, 04:24 PM
In one of capstics books "last ivory hunter story of Wally Johnson" he said that Wally didnít believe in the head shot he only used hart shots on elephants and he started his career using a 30-06 and a .318 Rigby ( very similar to a 06' with 250gr solids). its all about sectional density!

he also said that the 318's chamber was so corroded that he had to fill the pits with fingernail polish so the brass didnít expand into the pits and cause a failure to extract, this trick only worked three shots at a time, that was back in WWII and guns that you could find ammo for were rare

H&Hhunter
August 31, 2006, 12:48 AM
Peter Capstick, in one of his books, told the story of a couple jokers who killed two elephant with a .22 LR just behind a front leg where it reached the arteries near the heart

P35,

Yes I actually heard of this on several occasions. There is a major artery that runs behind the front leg low on the shoulder. When the animal's leg is in forward stride the vessel is fully exposed and about the size of a large garden hose. I've HEARD that a well placed .22 round through that vessel will bleed an elephant out in a short time.

I've also read of a not to distant situation where a hunter killed a bull elephant with a knife. He had knocked the elephant out with a near brain miss and then had his gun go out of service. So he climbed up on the jumbos back and cut the major artery behind the bulls ear with his hunting knife. The elephant bleed out before he regained consciousness.

Of course both of these stories are just that, stories and have no proof positive back up. But they do sound good around the camp fire.:)

Claywt,

Johon "Pondoro" Taylor writes a very graphic description of the remains retrieval of the bodies of two inexperienced hunters who tried to press a .318 into service in tight cover on a bull elephant.

He also goes onto describe what he thought about Bell and his 7X57 Mauser in word he considered Bell to have been "lucky".

All of this small bore shooting on elephant are fascinating but to pull it off everything must be perfect and the shooter must be very knowledgeable about shot placement and elephant behavior so as to know when to back off and when to pursue. these pip squeak rounds leave absolutely no room for error.

claywt
August 31, 2006, 11:02 AM
H&Hhunter,

trust me i would not go after elephant with my "light Rifle" to many elephant hunters have met there end even carrying a big gun, im just a big fan of and have great respect for those old timers that had that much skill with a rifle.

kjack
August 31, 2006, 03:13 PM
~45 years ago, The American Sportsman (as I recall - I'm talking ancient history here) filmed Robert Stack on safari. (This was well before the politically correct days and this was a regular Sunday afternoon broadcast.) Mr. Stack was a US champion skeet shooter in his younger days.

It seems as though a large elephant was not impressed with Mr Stack's entertainment career and charged. The cameraman was slightly behind Mr. Stack's right shoulder. Bob put a .458 between the elephant's eyes at 20 yards or so. The shot was apparently a no-kidding brain shot, because the elephant seemed to go back on his rear haunches rather abruptly. Not "knckdown", but extremely fast reaction to a shot! A very fast working of the bolt and the second shot went in about 2 inches from the first (shown in closeup on the deceased critter).

The camera angle shrank the depth perception, but it looked like a real close-in encounter. I'm sure the sound man had to tone down the clanking of the brass balls on both the shooter and the cameraman!

I'd love to see that sequence again - mostly to prove to myself that my memory isn't as bad as my kids say it is!

H&Hhunter
August 31, 2006, 03:28 PM
The shot was apparently a no-kidding brain shot, because the elephant seemed to go back on his rear haunches rather abruptly

Kjack,

That is indeed a reaction to a true brain shot rather than a near miss. A brain shot elephant will invariably react in the following manner: Hind quarters collapse, trunk flies into the air, head pitches back animal collapses, hind leg will go straight out and tremor.

Also there will be massive amounts of blood coming from the ear drums which burst in a brain shot and a copious blood slick will emit from the trunk.

Art Eatman
August 31, 2006, 05:30 PM
The thing about pipsqueak cartridges on large critters is that, yeah, they'll kill--but they won't stop the animal from leaving the scene of the crime or stop a charge.

In Bell's day, I've read, elephants were not as likely to run from men, herds apparently were larger and were easier to sneak up on. (Dunno; even I'm not old enough to have been there.) And, Bell is said to have usually shot from the side and would exit rearward and wait for the elephant to finally die. He wasn't into the, "See me stop this charging elephant!" deal.

The whole enchilada for minima for dangerous game cartridges is to be able to deal with a worst-case scenario.

FWIW, H&H, I don't recall anything you've ever said about hunting that jangled my Huh? nerve...

:), Art

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