Low Bore Axis 9mm.


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bg226
August 2, 2006, 02:01 AM
Besides the Steyr and P7, is there anything else with a very low bore axis in 9mm?

I'm looking for low bore axis so I can minimize muzzle flip.

Thanks. :)

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PO2Hammer
August 2, 2006, 02:02 AM
Glock, 1911. Not as low as the P7, but pretty good.

choochboost
August 2, 2006, 02:32 AM
Does a 9mm have a lot of muzzle flip?

mattw
August 2, 2006, 02:49 AM
I shot a 5" XD9, that thing had zero muzzle flip. I've got the 4" XD 9 and it has some but not much.

Jonathan
August 2, 2006, 02:57 AM
The Kahr is about the lowest you'll find in a traditional auto, but of course the small size will result in more flip than a full-size 1911 in 9mm.

VegasDude
August 2, 2006, 03:20 AM
What do you want, that the Steyr doesn't have? I love mine... it it awesome. It shoots great, has 14 rd capacity and takes all of five seconds to disassemble (if I am taking my time) :D

MTMilitiaman
August 2, 2006, 04:02 AM
As mentioned, Glock does pretty good in the bore axis department. My Glock 20 has less muzzle flip shooting full power Double Tap ammo than my USP Tactical shooting standard .45 ACP ball.

I have no experience with the Glock 9mms personally, but the 10mm is pretty stout. While controllable, it is on the upper end of what I personally consider suitable for self defense--right up there with its ballistic partner, the .357 Magnum. If the design of the Glock is such that it can make the 10 Auto that controllable and pleasent, I am sure the 9mm Glocks would be kittens.

Mac Attack
August 2, 2006, 10:58 AM
Sig 210 has a low axis to bore ratio.

bg226
August 2, 2006, 11:02 AM
Beretta says their Px4 has especially low bore axis.

If anyone has a Glock and Px4 9mm, please chime in. Which is lower of the two?

armoredman
August 2, 2006, 11:30 AM
CZ75.

ccw9mm
August 2, 2006, 12:09 PM
The CZ 75 line is pretty good. I've got a 28oz CZ P01 with very little muzzle flip. The barrel and slide sit fairly well down, inside the frame. Though the hand could be higher toward the bore axis, it's good enough for great control, even on the lighter examples like the P01/PCR.

BlkHawk73
August 2, 2006, 07:26 PM
Just buy a P7 model and be done with it.

Pilot
August 2, 2006, 08:30 PM
CZ-75 variants. Get a P7, you won't be dissapointed.

ugaarguy
August 2, 2006, 09:42 PM
Beretta says their Px4 has especially low bore axis.

If anyone has a Glock and Px4 9mm, please chime in. Which is lower of the two?

I don't own a Px4, but I can give you bore axis info on it. Most pistols, Glocks included, use the Browning tilt-breech underlugged barrel method of locking the breech. This necessitates keeping the bore high enough to make for the lugs and clearance for them to tilt into the frame to unlock the breech. On the other hand the Px4 uses the rotating barrel method of locking the breech. The lugs are more of a thickened area area around and just forward of the chamber with a groove cut diagonally in it to accomplish breech locking, which makes the overall bbl height from the bottom of the lug to the top of the hood shorter than using the tilt breech system. Bore axis is allowed be kept lower still in the frame because the barrel rotates concentric to its bore axis to lock and unlock the breech so it does not need any additional clearance for the barrel to tilt. Hopefully that all made sense. Some also reason that since the rotating barrel recoils strait along its axis while unlocking, rather than the muzzle tilting up, that muzzle flip is reduced and recoil feels more linear. From my experience firing a CZ 24, which also employs a rotating bbl for breech lockup, I would agree.

LoadedDrum
August 2, 2006, 11:01 PM
Glock or CZ variants as previously stated.

SP01 from CZ has the combination of low bore axis and high mass (over 40oz) which is only surpassed by porting in reducing muzzle flip. My G17C had the lowest flip of any gun I have ever tried but my SP01 is nothing to sneeze at in this regard.

Spackler
August 2, 2006, 11:41 PM
Maybe try the S&W M&P.

teombe
August 3, 2006, 01:54 AM
Glock. For bore axis, you can't get too much better.

As for the P7 - I think I am the only person on the planet that was underwhelmed - the one I shot had stouter recoil than I expected. Probably due to the high expectations.

http://home.austin.rr.com/teombe/gun_pages/gun_images/USPvG19_rearSM.jpg

MTMilitiaman
August 3, 2006, 02:04 AM
That's a great picture teombe. It does a good job of showing just what a crappy bore axis the HK has. Since I have gotten used to my Glock 20, when I go to bring up my HK USP Tactical, I find that I am looking at about the back of the hammer/firing pin about an inch underneath the rear sight just because that is how much lower the Glock sits in the hand than the HK. Some people try to convince me that bore axis doesn't make much of a difference. I call bullpucky on that one.

bg226
August 3, 2006, 10:57 AM
I think hammer guns require a higher bore axis because they need clearance for the hammer.

SteveS
August 3, 2006, 11:19 AM
Some people try to convince me that bore axis doesn't make much of a difference. I call bullpucky on that one

In 9mm, I haven't noticed a difference when it comes to bore axis. It makes sense that there should be a difference, but I seem to do just as well with my comparatively high axis P228, then when I shoot other low axis 9mm's.

hkusp
August 3, 2006, 03:18 PM
I don't believe the whole low bore axis thing either. So many other factors involved. Frame and slide weight. Recoil spring strength. Personally I feel the P7 has a very snappy recoil. My SP-01 is very soft shooting. Glock G17 is nice too. My Steyr M9 also felt snappy. My USP9F's were somewhere in between. Different strokes for different folks.

albanian
August 3, 2006, 05:26 PM
"As for the P7 - I think I am the only person on the planet that was underwhelmed "

You are not alone. I didn't what the big deal was with them either. I am a HUGE 9mm fan and single stack medium frame 9mms in particular and I still didn't get all exicted about it. It is a well made gun but not in anyway the end all and be all of single stack 9mms.

I like the Kahr K-9. Super low bore axis by design and less recoil than it should have considering the size. You can actually get a good grip in the Kahr as well unlike the Glock so that also helps in terms of controlling recoil. Glocks are good guns but they need to make the grip a little more ergonomic.

The 1911, Beretta, XD-9, SIGs, and Rugers all have fairly high bore axis. I don't think bore axis alone is the most important thing to reduce recoil but all other factors being equal, the lower the bore axis, the better it is going to point and handle recoil. It is science.;)

I think Glocks and Karhs are some of the the lowest bore axis guns out there.

huntershooter
August 3, 2006, 06:06 PM
P-35/Browning HI Power has a low bore axis in relation to web of hand. My favorite 9mm platform after the 1911.

Coronach
August 3, 2006, 06:14 PM
Low bore axis 9mms that I can think of right now, and have shot:

CZ-75
BHP
P7
M&P9

Well, I shot an M&P40. All are very good guns. The CZ is a DA/SA that can be carried cocked and locked. The BHP is a traditional SA. The P7 is a squeezecocker, and the M&P is a striker-fired polymer duty gun.

I think any one of them would be a killer addition to a collection of 9s. I own two (BHP, P7), and am about to own a M&P in .40 S&W. The CZ just never really called to me, even though there is not a darned thing wrong with it.

I think the whole bore axis thing is a relevant factor, but that it can be overstated. You can compensate for it with technique, but it's nice to not have to do so. I think a lot of mediocre shooters blame poor performance on barrel flip due high barrel axis.

Mike

otomik
August 3, 2006, 06:15 PM
I think hammer guns require a higher bore axis because they need clearance for the hammer.exactamundo

personally I think the new Steyr M1A series looks fantastic, I've said it before but I'd really love to see a gun with a low bore axis like that also use a rotating barrel system like the PX4. I think such a gun would be a very soft shooter.

ugaarguy
August 3, 2006, 06:54 PM
I think the new Steyr M1A series looks fantastic, I've said it before but I'd really love to see a gun with a low bore axis like that also use a rotating barrel system like the PX4. I think such a gun would be a very soft shooter.

I think a conversion is possible, and wouldn't be difficult. The CZ 24, the rotating bbl design I'm most familiar with, uses a small block to engage the bbl for lockup. The block is held in by the takedown catch, so it being seperate from the frame allows the pistol to be dissasembled. If you could design a block to be held by either a take down latch like on a Glock, or lever/pin like on others then you could move on to the bbl. For the bbl all you'd need is a diagonal lug to meet a matching groove on the block, or vice versa, and the basics are there. The only other thing I'd do is add a bushing at the muzzle, or a bushing held in a small block within the slide, to support the bbl since rotating lug alone doesn't quite provide the same stability as the tilting lugs. Since it would be a conversion from a tilt breech design the bore wouldn't be as low as it could be if made that way from the ground up, but it would help counter muzzle flip since the bbl is no longer tilting up to unlock under recoil. Still on something with a low bore axis like a Glock or Steyr such a conversion could make for even sweeter shooting. If you could machine the muzzle end of the slide to take a bbl support bushing then using a large bushing made from a dense metal like tungsten would even further reduce felt recoil affects, as long as the slide didn't get too heavy for standard ammo to cycle the action. Anyway, I think it's do-able.

CraCZ
August 3, 2006, 07:05 PM
Ditto to what ccw9mm said. All the CZs have a very low flip. With the slide being internal to the frame you can place both thumbs high on the frame which helps some too.

bg226
August 4, 2006, 12:43 AM
In 9mm, I haven't noticed a difference when it comes to bore axis.

I have noticed significant muzzle flip in 9mm with high bore axis. Some say technique trumps low bore axis. All being equal, lower bore axis results in less muzzle flip.

JohnKSa
August 4, 2006, 01:01 AM
The bore axis on the 9mm PX4 is about a quarter inch higher than the Glock 17 bore axis.

Kind of interesting, to read Beretta's commentary about the Browning tilting barrel system requiring space under the barrel for locking mechanisms. It sounds pretty good until you take the PX4 apart and realize that they put the "central block" underneath the barrel. It appears to be a wash to me.

(The "central block" is the part that controls the barrel's rotation during slide motion.)

ugaarguy
August 4, 2006, 01:11 AM
JohnKSa, thanks for the info, I now know not to trust anyone to execute a design correctly, even a major player like Beretta. If only they'd fully maxamized the rotating bbl concept.

JohnKSa
August 4, 2006, 01:17 AM
Well, I'm not really saying anything negative about the design--I was just pointing out that there's pretty much the same amount of mechanism under either action type (at least as implemented in the two pistols I was comparing.)

The PX4 is a nice pistol and my wife says it has less felt recoil than a Glock 17. I can't tell the difference.

JohnEP
August 4, 2006, 02:35 AM
I agree with SteveS, hkusp, and albanian. Many factors determine percieved recoil and muzzle flip.

I purchased the Steyr S9 exactly b/c of the low bore axis, believing it would minimize flip. I now realize that light-weight polymer frames offer very little inertia to counteract the slide. I now believe that the weight of the frame, and the quality of your grip matter more. At my CPL class, my instructor let my wife and I shoot his 1911 .45ACP. Our experience is mostly 9mm, but we had no complaints with 'muzzle flip' on that .45 pistol. She knocked down all the standing targets w/o a miss (controlled rapid fire), and I finished off the discs downrange, on first go with that caliber. For comfort, muzzle flip, and speed to next shot, I'd rather fire his .45 than our 380acp Walther PPK/S.

As a relative newcomer to this sport myself, let me suggest that you go to a range and rent as many pistols as you can. Ask to hold several to see how you like the grip before you pick one to rent. Some ranges will allow you to save your rental fee reciepts toward the purchase of a pistol.

Of the pistols we own, my wife and I like the Steyr S9 the best.
See my review and range repot here:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=213940

I believe the Steyr MA1 should be a great pistol, but check others out before your are enamored with some 'spec' such as low bore axis.

John

ugaarguy
August 4, 2006, 02:37 AM
Well John(KSa) I guess she may be more sensitive to muzzle flip and perhaps the strait back recoil is easier on her wrist. I guess my comments were a bit negative on the PX4. When i say execute the design correctly I mean not only make it reliable, but take advantage of the potential to seat the bore lower in the frame by moving the block forward. Who knows, maybe they'll tweak the design.

Edited to clarify which John. Also, good post JohnEP, and welcome to THR.

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