[MyRoad]

Does anyone know of one off the shelf? I'd be deer hunting in thick brush. I've thought about the Ruger Frontier or Compact, but the 16" barrel seems extreme and possibly limiting to me.

If need be, I can get something like a Remington PSP and have it cut down and recrowned. I've heard of people seemingly randomly having rifles cut down, is there anything I should know about it? On the surface, a shorter stiffer barrel should be nearly as accurate (some would say more accurate), but are there any risks involved in terms of diminishing accuracy or functionality when we alter a design?

(I understand that there could be the normal results of having a shorter barrel: some loss of efficiency of the use of the gasses resulting in less bullet velocity, and possibly more muzzle blast and higher recoil.)

[nhhillbilly]

my handy short 308 bush rifle is a remington model 7. sweet handleing rifle.

[Ol` Joe]

The Rem M7 was IMO designed for the 308 class of cartridges. It is a great little rifle you won`t want to over look. They have recently went to 20" bbls so you may have to hunt for a older 18" model. They shouldn`t be hard to find though.

[MyRoad]

Thanks for the suggestions. I wonder why Remington changed the M7 from 18" to 20"? Perhaps 20" is optimal for .308?

[Terrierman]

The Ruger M77 RSI is available in .308 with an 18" barrel. It is the Mannlicher stock version - very nice looking rifle.

[Selfdfenz]

If the 308 version of the 18 inch M7 Remington shoots as well as the 7-08 version, it is one fine shooting rifle indeed.

S-

[rbernie]

Perhaps 20" is optimal for .308?My 308 loads lose about 100fps dropping from a 24" to a 20" barrel. I'm not sure that I'd want to lose much more.

[Lone_Gunman]

The Ruger M77 RSI is available in .308 with an 18" barrel. It is the Mannlicher stock version - very nice looking rifle.



I had one of those, and it would only shoot about 3 or 4 MOA.

[ArmedBear]

It's not cheap, but Ruger's Frontier Rifle really won me over as a compact bolt gun, when I first shouldered it. With the Leupold scope that's made for it, it acquired targets like a shotgun. With both eyes open, you spot the target, point the rifle and it's right on it.

Again, the price is up there. But it also feels like an old military bolt action, which is a good thing. A forever gun, especially in gray stainless.

http://www.ruger.com/Firearms/FAProdView?model=17914&return=Y

One thing I don't know: the ballistics of .308 from a 16.5" barrel. I'd research that before dropping the cash.

[MyRoad]

First, let me say I'm fairly new to rifles, and very new to hunting, so forgive my ignorance and my propensity for repeating things I've read but not experienced - so far, that's most of what I have to go on.

ArmedBear - I actually started my search with the Ruger Frontier concept. I was curious enough about 'scout style' rifles to have already "sporterized" a MosinNagant M44 scout (positioned) scope and all, basically making a rough version of the Frontier. The Mosin shoots decently, but its barrel is quite heavy and the bolt is crude and stiff (I actually went as far as to have a trigger job done to it). That was a fun project, and if it had to, it would serve. What I did learn from it is that I like forward mounted (scout style) scopes.

Having completed that project, I just picked up the copy of Shooting Times with the Frontier on the cover, the article title being "Why you need a Scout-Style Bolt Gun". If I had seen that six months ago...

I'm looking for something very versatile and well balanced. I do like the forward scout scope position, but in this case I'd like to be able to put a 3-9x variable scope on it so that it has more range, so I think a standard scope mount might be better (my Mosin has a Burris 2-7x handgun scope on it). The Frontier is very interesting, and if I get to the point where I have several rifles for various conditions, I'd love to have that be one of them.

Here's a pick of my "Mosin Frontier"
http://www.xlr8nrg.com/images2/mn2view.jpg
.vs the real thing
http://www.ruger-firearms.com/Firearms/images/Products/222L.jpg

[ArmedBear]

I see.

If you are willing to consider a 20" barrel, this is a relatively unknown option. A good gun; comes with two stocks, one short LOP, one standard. #1 barrel contour, 6.75 lb. total weight.

http://www.weatherby.com/_images/products/rifles/vgd_compact.gif

http://www.weatherby.com/products/guns.asp?prd=Rifles&prd_sub_type=3&prod_code=VGC7M08RR0O

I have the full-sized, walnut version in .30-06. It groups well, balances well, and the Weatherby cheekpiece gives you a nice cheek weld but gets out of the way under recoil.

[ChestyP]

there is no shortage of compact carbines in .308. Mitchell Arms is also importing a cut-down 98 Mauser (17.7" barrel al la "police carbine") in several calibers, including .308.

As for acuracy problems with the Ruger 77RSI, been there, experienced that, too. Pick up a stock from a Ruger 77RL (the 20" barrel, no sight version). The RSI barreled action drops right into the RL stock and groups start tightening up to a more reasonable 11/2" or so, depending on load. Traded it off to another high power rifle shooter who laughs every time i ask him if he'd like to trade it back. :uhoh:

[Gordon]

Find a 600 Rem or Mohawk with the early 18" barrel. Put it in a fiberglass stock and tune the trigger.:)

[redneck2]

If you're interested, my local dealer has a custom .308 sporter weight with a Kreiger barrel, Fajen stock and aftermarket trigger built on a 700 action. One of the guys that works in the shop had it built. He gets the bug to make up something custom, develops loads, then gets bored and sells them. This guy has forgotten more about guns than the next 10 guys will ever know.

He wants $585. If I needed a good all around medium caliber, I'd be in my safe. I'm trying to thin the herd, and the last thing I need is another rifle, but man, you look and it and think of the money he spent, and it's hard to pass up. It's beautiful.... walks out of the shop muttering "you DON'T need another rifle...

PM me if you're interested and I'll dig up the phone number.

[rangerruck]

go find an old remmy mohawk at a gun show, especially if it has the vent rib all theway down the top of the bbl, it will be light super handy , and a real unique rifle. should be able to get it for about 500.

[MyRoad]

Thanks for all the suggestions. There aren't really any decent gun stores within 40 or so miles of me, so if I'm going to make a road trip out, I like to call first and see what they have in stock that I can check out, and now I'll have some things to be looking for. Don't seem to be too many gun shows this time of year, but I suppose with the fall right around the corner, they'll start picking up again too.

[brianc]

Why does it have to be a factory 18"??? Get any rifle you like and have the muzzle cut and recrowned.... I have a Rem 700 ADL, I turned into my first scout, had the barrel cut to 18.5"... shoots about 1.5 MOA. What more do you want?

[MyRoad]

brianc - in my initial post I mentioned that option. I've not had too much experience, but I've had enough to find out that some things work better when they are used the way they were designed or intended to be used. Other times, it really doesn't matter. That's why I had asked if there were any negative repercussions from cutting barrels down.

Economically speaking, I think it would come out to be less expensive, for instance, to get and ADL or SPS and cut it down than to get a Seven. I'm still open to that.

[Nematocyst]

Brianc (or others), can you share an approximate estimate of how much that barrel job (cutting and recrowning) cost?

And what, exactly, is "recrowning", please?
___

For the first time ever, as a result of this thread I'm starting to take a serious look at those Ruger Frontiers. I think the barrel is shorter than I'm looking for, but they look quite interesting.

Nem

[USSR]

MyRoad,

Please be aware that after you've butchered a rifle by cutting it's barrel so short, you will never get anything out of it should you wish to sell it.

Don

[swampdog]

Go ahead and get the model 7. I fell in love with the first one I fired. I tried for years to find something similar in left hand and ended up getting a browning micro-hunter. If they made a LH model 7, that's what I'd had gotten.

I've played with the scout rifle concept and came to the conclusion that I was just as well served by a 1x4 variable mounted in the normal position. I noticed that if the sun was at the correct angle behind me, it totally obscures my vision through the scope. I've also noticed this with pistol mounted scopes, one time while trying to shoot a copperhead. I'm glad he was headed the other way. I've read other reports of this occurring, too. It's fast and accurate, but so is a low powered, rear mounted variable and it's shaded by your head.

I do like the .308 carbine. A handier rifle with it's performance is hard to find.
The gunsmith I normally go to charges $50 bucks to shorten and recrown a barrel, btw. I have found a 20" barrel to be short enough, though.

Have Fun

[Ol` Joe]

Economically speaking, I think it would come out to be less expensive, for instance, to get and ADL or SPS and cut it down than to get a Seven.

I think if you check the M7 action is about 3/4 inch shorter then a M700 you would still have a M700 action lenght just a shorter barrel. The M7 I had only allowed a cartridge OAL of 2.80 or less, my M700 short action will allow a slightly larger cartridge. The barrel conture is also a lot lighter in the M7 and other "carbine type" rifles, the balance of the rifle might not be what you want after cutting and removing barrel end wgt. If you are looking for a light, easy handling woods rifle I would go with one already built for it or consider a new barrel of a proper conture to keep the balance and weight down.
To be honest, I hunt Michigans balsam/cedar swamps and use a Kimber M84 with a 22" barrel. "Thick stuff"! I`ve in the past used a 24" Sauer, rebarreled 20" M700, M94, on top of the mentioned M7. The little added lenght of the 22" rifle hasn`t been noticable yet except in a shooting hut I use to hunt from, and the M7 was still to long there to allow easy switching from window to window.

BTW
I`ve a 24" 7-08 and had a 20" 7-08 that the parent 308 should follow somewhat in velocity with different barrel lenghts. The difference between the two with ammo from the same box ran normally about 50-75 fps crono`ed with 140gr bullets. My Kimber M84 in 260 and my M700 24"DBL 260 also follows this same trend with even less change. No deer will ever know the difference, nor will the trajectory change enough in the first 250-300 yds for you to notice. Velocity loss is a none-issue IMO
I had a recrown done a few years back on a rifle that ran me $35. (no cutting just a crown) I don`t know what todays prices are but they shouldn`t be much more, if you still feel this is the way to go.

[brianc]

Recrowning is getting a perfect cut on the end of the muzzle. The base of the bullet is released from the barrel all at the same time. General cost of cut and recrown is $35-50. I've read somewhere to .308 will not lose too much fps when cut 18'' from 22''. 16" is alittle short ( Ruger frontier ) And alot more muzzle blast!!

[Nematocyst]

Any thoughts on the Ruger M77 Mark II International (http://www.ruger-firearms.com/Firearms/FAProdView?model=7902&return=Y), please?

Nem

[Anthony T.]

I think you're looking on both sides of the spectrum. You want a close range timber rifle, but want a 3x9 scope. You wouldnt need near that big of a scope for a brush gun. I recommend either a lever action or a bolt with no less than a 20" barrel. 18in is just too short IMO. You'd basically have a 30-30 with that much loss in velocity.Well it would'nt be quite as slow, but almost. 20in barrel is fine for brush rifles. If you have to have an 18", I'd just get a 30-30. Either a model 7 type rifle with 20" barrel with a 1x4 or 2x7 scope or a 30-30 marlin with a 1x4 or 2x7. Just my thoughts..

[Nematocyst]

Anthony, good points all. Sounds very reaonable.

Liking the looks of that Rem M7 more and more...

In case no one has offered this to you, welcome to THR.

Kick back, and enjoy the ride.

Nem

[Anthony T.]

Thanks alot! I like the model 7 also. Lighter the better in the mountains I say.
Glad to be here.:)

[Nematocyst]

The word on the street (Internet) is that the lighter barrel of the M7 "heats up", which affects the trajectory of the shots after number 3 (or so) at the range, but on the hunting field, where it counts, the only ones that count are the first one or two.

So, my strategy for the range with an M7 would be, take a book.

Shoot 2 or 3, then read for a while as it cools down before taking the next shot.

In fall/winter, that won't take long.

Any thoughts?

[Anthony T.]

Oh yea, any lighter thinner barrel will heat quicker. I'd say the book would be a great idea. This rifle is definetly a woods only rifle, not a praire dawgger or target plinker.:D but they do make a great woods rifle.

[MyRoad]

I'm liking the Model Seven, and after handling a few guns today, I think the 20" barrel will be fine.

Does anyone know if there are any differences between the way the blued vs. the SS barrel will react when it heats up? Different metals seem to have different characteristics regarding stiffness, heating, and cooling. I don't know if it would be enough to matter, but I'm just wondering.

[Nematocyst]

Does anyone know if there are any differences between the way the blued vs. the SS barrel will react when it heats up?Excellent question.

<pours another drink, sits back and waits for intelligent, informed answers...>

[Nematocyst]

This rifle is definetly a woods only rifle, not a praire dawgger or target plinker.'Xactly what i'm looking for: a woods rifle.

Still, that A-bolt looks awefully nice....

[Anthony T.]

The a-bolt micro hunter. Hve you seen it yet? Very nice rifle and close to the remington m7 price. A little more, but its bedded and floated, plus has adjustable trigger from the factory. They are well built rifles.

[Nematocyst]

a-bolt micro. (http://www.browning.com/products/catalog/firearms/detail.asp?value=001B&cat_id=035&type_id=020) no, hadn't even heard of it til now.

just checked it out.

nice looking. sounds good. thanks for the heads up.

still thinking i like the Stainless Stalker. I'm not exactly a "smaller stature shooter" (at 6', even if I'm on a small frame).

Still, in winter, with layers on, the micro could shoulder easier, like the M7. Not to mention be lighter to carry around.

Hmm...lot's to think about.

[Anthony T.]

Boy, I'd hate to shoot that thing in a 325wsm. OUCH! I'd say the shop price would be around 500 maybe. The msrp on my medallion was 850 and I paid 710 for it.
The stainless stalker is a nice rig also. If it's browning, I like it.

[MJ]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v130/montereyjack/25ee90aa.jpg

[phydaux]

I have the Remington M7 ss in 308 with a 1.5x5x20 scope. It will shoot groups less than an inch at 100 yd if I do my part correctly, and weighs less than 7 lb. I love my M7!!!!:)

[Selfdfenz]

The word on the street (Internet) is that the lighter barrel of the M7 "heats up", which affects the trajectory of the shots after number 3 (or so) at the range, but on the hunting field, where it counts, the only ones that count are the first one or two.

This rifle is definetly a woods only rifle, not a praire dawgger or target plinker. but they do make a great woods rifle.

Note to self,
....gotta remember this is the Internet.

Selfdfenz

[Richard.Howe]

My .308 Steyr SBS Mountain rifle will shoot sub-MOA with several factory hunting loads, and is a breeze to lug. Too bad it's so ugly...

I also have a Kimber 84 Montana on the way. It's also a short-barrel 308, but a bit pricey for an off-the-shelf rifle.

Rich

[Mike Sr.]

If I were you I'd also consider the Rem 7600P: damn nice rifle and the one I have, @ 200 yards (longest distance available at the range I shot at) shot as well as my REm 700/bull barrel/stainless 308

By the way I sold the stainless pocketed the extra $300

7600P:

Pump action, 308, DBM, Ashles Sights, I put Redfield scope on it;
Black synthetic stock.

5-shot; one in chamber, 4 in mag.

Black receiver and barrel.

I've got two now and I take them Deer hunting in Nebr Sandhills where a shot can be at 1-yard or 1,000 yards.

Frankly, it's all the rifle you'll ever need.

It'll shoot as well as any rifle mentioned above...plus you'll have $$$ in the pocket vs the cost of the others...laugh if you want about the accuracy of a 7600, you just name the time and place and at reasonable and responsible and ethical shooting game distances I'll shoot my $550, 7600P against your
$600-$700-$800 or $1,000 dollar Rem 700 308...

Don't kid yourself it is faster than a bolt!

Don't know how the RED words got here...

[rangerruck]

there is a guy here in houston that has a beautiflu old remmy mohawk, with a 16 inch bbl, and the ultra cool vent rib, that starts atop the receiver, and goes all the way to the muzzle end, he wants about 500 bucks for it. if i didn't allready have two 308's , I would snatch this one up myself.

[Nematocyst]

Mike Sr, glad to finally hear someone recommend that 7600P.

I've been eyeing one of those for some time (as I already am very fond of my pump 870P, it seems a reasonable step for a centerfire rifle...same action and all). I like the idea of a short carbine pump about as much as a carbine bolt like the Ruger Frontier (or something similar).

I've done a fair amount of reading about the pump rifles. They seem to get, um, mixed reviews.

The only criticism I've read about the 7600 is that some have contended that it tends to jam a bit, that extraction is not quite as reliable as with a bolt (especially mauser action). I can't find the thread where that was asserted, so can't stand behind the assertion.

Any comment on that?

Also, please, what is DBM?

Thanks,

Nem

[obm]

FN PBR .308 comes in 16, 18, 20" w/or w/o factory muzzle brake in .308.

tho, they are kind of pricey:

http://www.impactguns.com/store/fn_pbr.html

[Mike Sr.]

DBM, Detachable Box Magazine/clip if you will.

As for jamming: dirty chamber; over-loaded reload...

Never, never had one jam; be more concerned about a metorite hitting your yard, your block, your neighborhood, your city. etc., etc.,


Barrel is already free floated..kinda how I feel after 7-ounces of Corona...:what:

[Nematocyst]

Thanks for the DBM clarification, Mike.

Now, can anyone offer more about those FN PBR's? I like the barrel options. Are they worth that much money? Why?

[Nematocyst]

Mike (or others),

Is the Remington 7600P (http://www.remingtonle.com/rifles/7600.htm) drilled/tapped for scope mounts?

I see it has those back up irons (GR) that I'm interested in, but wondering if one can scope it also.

Nem

PS: sorry to ask a pump gun question in a bolt gun thread, but the 7600P does have an 18" barrel ...

[Mike Sr.]

Receiver is drilled and tapped for a scope; have an original Redfield on mine....these trifocal eyes I have will not let me see the end of the barrel..:eek: :eek:

Buy it, you'l like it....compactness, portability..is great.
>........................................................................................................
New to our line of Remington law enforcement products is the Model 7600P Patrol Rifle in .308 Win featuring an advanced sight system. Answering the call for a low profile, user-friendly patrol rifle, Remington now offers this durable, pump action rifle for standard duty use.

The Model 7600P action, slide release and safety are based on the industry standard, pump action Model 870™ shotgun. The similar design and function of this patrol rifle provides a familiar feel for ease of transitional training. The Model 7600P features a quick release magazine and rotary bolt lock-up design providing fast follow-up shots, exceptional strength and reliability. The 16 ½-inch carbine barrel and receiver are coated with a Parkerized finish, reducing reflections and providing abrasion and weather resistance. Completing this well-built LE tool is a matte black synthetic stock and fore-end with swivel studs and an upgraded sight system consisting of the Wilson Combat® Scattergun Technologies™ TRAK-LOCK® rear ghost ring sight and AO Sight Systems™ Standard Dot front sight.

Proven by numerous law enforcement departments and federal agencies, the Wilson Combat TRAK-LOCK rear sight is the standard and defines the market concept of a true ghost ring sight. Renowned for its durability in the field, the TRAK-LOCK Ghost Ring sight is the fastest, easiest-to-use shotgun sight available today. The XS Sight Systems Standard Dot provides fast front sight acquisition and the dovetail front base provides added flexibility by allowing the user to upgrade to an AO Sight Systems Standard Dot Tritium sight. This versatile front sight provides extremely fast alignment in all light conditions. Rugged and dependable, both sights withstand the National Institute of Justice drop test exposure of a direct three foot impact on concrete.

Model 7600P Patrol Rifle
Action Pump/Short
BBL Length 16 1/2 inches
Overall Length 37 1/2 inches
Overall Length 37 1/2 inches
Avg. Weight 7 lbs.
Stock Material Synthetic
Stock Finish Matte Black
BBL Material Carbon Steel
BBL Finish Parkerized
Sights Wilson Combat Rear Ghost Ring - XS Sight Standard Dot Front
Order Number 4681

[rbernie]

The only criticism I've read about the 7600 is that some have contended that it tends to jam a bit, that extraction is not quite as reliable as with a bolt (especially mauser action).It has been my experience that, due to the shape of their feed path, the 7400/7600 rifles do NOT like to feed HP bullets (e.g. Barnes) very well at all. This may or may not be an issue to you (you may not like Barnes bullets, for example) but it deserves note.

[anotherinkling]

Any thoughts on the Ruger M77 Mark II International, please?
There's a good review over on Chuck Hawk's site. Having trouble connecting to it right now, but the general site is www.chuckhawks.com.

[Terrierman]

I have a 760 in .30-06 that is a pretty good rifle. It's about a 1.5" shooter at 100 yards. It has a full length barrel and wears a VX II 2x7. I've never yet had it offer to jam. It weighs noticably more than my 77RL, if I were in long distance carrying mode, the 77RL would definitely be first choice for that reason. But I really do like the pump action and the removable magazine, it makes it really quick and easy to make the rifle vehicle safe and then ready to hunt again quickly, which is an issue when hunting deer with dogs as I do now and again.

[BCHunter]

About 20 years ago I had a Ruger M77 RSI (International) in 308 Win. It printed 200 gr Barns bullet consistently at under 3MOA. Considering I was hunting Moose and the distances were well under 150 yards I considered it perfect. That kit sure worked.

Why the hell would I need a ½ MOA rifle for that kind of hunting??? The RSI was perfect then, why not now?? (Under 150 Yards)

If I remember correctly 165 gr handloads would print around 2 MOA in that rifle. What more could you want in a 200 yard rifle????

[GeoW]

QUOTE]Why does it have to be a factory 18"??? Get any rifle you like and have the muzzle cut and recrowned.... I have a Rem 700 ADL, I turned into my first scout, had the barrel cut to 18.5"... shoots about 1.5 MOA. What more do you want?[[/QUOTE]

Hey Bubba, ya got a ID where my hack saw and file is? Werent it you using them tuning and fitting that Sako last week? :evil:

GeoW

Kidding aside.. find a Remington Model 7 in 308, 7-08, 260 or 243.
Mine served me well for years..

[CarpenterCrack]

Picked up an 18" barreled Remington 788 Carbine in .243 last week. Not so much range but plenty of accuracy.

[TheGunGuru]

If you are planning on hunting dear in thick brush, a shot gun would be a much better choice than a rifle. I have taken shots at animals in thick cover and, as any experienced rifle shooter would know, rifle shots are VERY easy to be deflected. A 1 ounce shotgun slug will cut down saplings and branches and have more killing power at close range.

[GunTech]

If you want short and pretty accurate, you might want to look at the FN PBR. It's available in a 16, 18 barrel with recoil reducer, and 18, 20, 22 and 24 ich standard barrel.

http://www.fnhusa.com/support/images/dynamic/m/FNM0011m.jpg

http://www.fnhusa.com/products/firearms/family.asp?fid=FNF007&gid=FNG004

[rangerruck]

a ruger frontier will do it, also an old remmy mohawk, in 600 or 660, will fill the bill.

[one-shot-one]

in oregon:

http://www.auctionarms.com/search/auctions.aspx?&aa=600&ab=301&ad=&ae=OR&af=0&ag=8