[Tubwaa]

Hi All

Looking to get the best 9mm auto money can buy - most probably some of you will say go to a custom gunsmith but if I wanted an 'off the rack' quality pistol what would it be ?

Apologies if this question has been done to death but upto now I have been a revolver man and have just got the auto bug !

cheers

Andy

[dfariswheel]

The Swiss SIG P210.

It's a single action available in 9mm or 7.65 Parabellem.
First introduced in 1947 as the standard Swiss service pistol, it's world famous for it super high quality.

They were as well finished inside as most pistols are outside.
There were also deluxe models with custom engraving and gold inlays. Prices for the deluxe models started around $4000.

The standard P-210 sold for around $2000.

Discontinued, these can still be found.

Another option would be the Korth auto.
Literally a true custom hand machined, hand made gun, prices start around $7500.

If those are a little TOO rich for your blood, you can have custom guns built by the S&W Performance Center, and several other top gun makers.

[10-Ring]

Let's see...HK P7M8, SIG 210, Walther P88 :cool: I know there are a couple others, but they don't come to mind at the moment :banghead:

[Tubwaa]

Thanks for the quick replies....the Sig P226 X-five had been suggested to me.....would that be a good idea ?

I know I said money not an option but I think I should take that back when it comes to how much a Korth costs !

[ugaarguy]

I'll add the old all Belgian made Hi-Powers, Swiss Lugers, and from what I hear the the Swiss Sphinx clone of the CZ.

[Tubwaa]

you know when you post a thread and then wish you had been a little more specific ?
Ok, well that applies to me right now....other than the Sig P226 Xfive the other one suggested was a S&W Performance Centre Model SW1911 DK - I know it is a .38 Super and not a 9mm but that is ok....basically cannot go upto anything larger than a .38 or 9mm

[SAG0282]

P210. It might not be the most expensive, but when you consider elegance, cachet, and cost, it is the Rolls.

[RustyShackelford]

The SIGarms model 210 9mm Smith and Wesson 952 9mm and/or the rare custom ASP 9mm.

The SIG and the S&W model 952 are SA(single action) and are designed for target/range use.

The ASP was made in the 70s/80s. It was a Smith model 39 with over 200 modifications. Several posts were made here about the ASP. It was also used by 007/James Bond in a few 007 novels(John Gardner). ;)

[MAGNUMMAN]

CZ SP-01 and Sig 226ST

[asiparks]

Korth....astoundingly ugly even more expensive...
http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-286.html
http://www.korthusa.com/pistol_en.htm

[asiparks]

double post- sorry

[ugaarguy]

Well I guess the Korth truly fits the "Rolls Royce" analogy. My Truck was $20K when I got it slightly used. My Hi-Power, also slightly used was $500. A new Rolls is approx $200K or 10 times the cost of my truck; a new Korth is $5K or 10 times the cost of my BHP. Most folks here shoot $200-$1000 pistols, and, I would guess, arent big on vehicles that cost more than $30K-$40K. I suppose once you drive a car that cost 4 to 10 times what most people's do, then a handgun of equally exhorbitant price should be normal.

[444]

You need to specify exactly what you mean by "Rolls Royce" of 9mm handguns.
Is this a cosmetic thing ? Is it a bragging thing (mine costs more than yours) ? Is it a performance thing ?

I can tell you that when I bought my 9mm handguns, money was not an object. If I thought that I could get a better gun for a couple thousand dollars, I would have bought it. But, I was buying based on performance. I didn't care about looks or prestige. I bought what I consider the best performing gun out there regardless of cost.

[huntershooter]

Baer slide/frame, custom build.

[Rembrandt]

Rolls Royce has never been considered a performance auto, but rather an elegant example of craftsmanship. The first two 9mm's that come to mind would be the Renaissance Browning High Power and the Luger.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v405/Rembrandt51/Firearms/RenaissanceHP.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v405/Rembrandt51/45calLuger.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v405/Rembrandt51/Navyluger.jpg

[Cousin Mike]

Would definitely have to be the Hi-Power posted above me. That's a thing of beauty.

The Sig P210 would fall in the Bentley-of-9mm's category.

A fancy P226 (say the X-Five or the Equinox) would fall into the same category, maybe more like a Continental-T or Maybach :D

Then there are of course, the luxury sport car 9mms, like the Sig 226 Tactical version. The Lotus of 9mms, if you will.

Of course, you could always get 20 Daewoo's (Hi-Points) for the same price as one Bentley :evil:

[Pilot]

To me the Browning Hi Power is the ultimate 9MM. It may not be finished as nicely as the P210, but it is the best all around 9MM. The HK P7 series is more the Mercedes Benz of semi autos.

[Seraph]

Surely this one deserves mention as well.
http://www.impactguns.com/store/media/smith_952_ss_wood.jpg

[Ash]

Korth.

Ash

[larry starling]

Sig P-210 hard to find a better 9mm . Of coarse its very expensive to boot!:eek:

[browningguy]

Sig P210's are very nice, for elegance I'd go with a Renaissance grade High Power or even one of the new high grades they build. They usually have to be special ordered but what's a little time.

Here's one http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976708327.htm

[Furncliff]

http://www.korthusa.com/images/pistole1.gif


Special Walnut grips....$295 extra.

[steelhead]

http://www.shootingtimes.com/handgun_reviews/SThipoint_100605C.jpg


Whoops!!! Sorry, I though this was the YUGO thread....

[......]

bryco with a duracoat slide with millet adjustable sights and a custom leather rig will put others to shame.second would be the cobra series

[orionengnr]

PSP
M-8
Jubilee
M-13

visit
http://www.parkcitiestactical.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=forum;f=10

Park Cities Tactical, "The Cult of the P7"

Warning: once hooked, you are done.:evil:

[kansas45]

I'm not sure, but I saw a Kimber 1911 in 9mm at a gun show in Wichita Saturday. It's gotta be at or near the top of the list. I'm gonna check into it a little further this week. Maby I NEED one!

[Angus Podgorney]

You haven't said what you want to use it for... best for what?

[JoeHatley]

You might want to give the 952 a look...

http://www.iowatelecom.net/~hatley/952_r.jpg

Joe

[bubbygator]

Well, to open a slightly new dimension, how about the Glock 18C? What would be the car analogy for that?

[Quintin Likely]

That's easy.

The P210.

[Black Majik]

I have to agree to the SIG 210 and SIG X5. I've shot the X5, and that is probably the sweetest 9mm I've ever shot. No chance to shoot the P210 yet :o

HK P7M8 is up there too.

[Rob1035]

high end sphinx?

[cardboardkiller]

A 210, 226 X-Five or an SV.

I shot a prototype SV 1911 that was aluminum framed with tungsten rods driven down through the grip area of the frame. No other gun has ever felt that good to me.

[KC&97TA]

I'm addicted to 1911's, there's no cure except to buy more... I'd have to say the Les Baer Premier II 9mm and add in the guarentee 1-1/2 inch groups at 50 yards offer.

http://images.gunsamerica.com/upload/976555730-1.jpg

If you ever get the chance to shoot a Les Baer or Ed Brown 1911, you'll know why they pay so much for them, it'll make a grown man weak kneed

[Deer Hunter]

I'm with everyone when they say Korth. Money isn't an object, and you'll definantly have an original.

[JohnKSa]

Korriphila.
http://www.korriphila.com/index.htm

http://www.korriphila.com/web_Bild_23.jpghttp://www.korriphila.com/web_Bild_13.jpg

[AJAX22]

Well I'll kick in a vote for the 210,

The engineering is incredible, internal frame rails, and they came with a .22 conversion slide.

the p210 is hands down the best built pistol I've ever drooled over.

Alot of the other custom built guns nowadays are nice, but they're bling guns. showy customs.

the p210 is a factory perfect weapon, the pinnacle of form following function, and excelent execution of concept.

[Dr.Rob]

Artillery Luger
C-96 Mauser from Abercrombie and Fitch
Renaissance Hi-Power
HK P7

[CK]

SIG P 210.

[pocketgun]

More votes for the SIG P210 and Walther P88.

[Ash]

Yeah, I was thinking of a Odin's Eye Korriphila.

Ash

[444]

"Rolls Royce has never been considered a performance auto, but rather an elegant example of craftsmanship. "

Very good point.

[Big Gay Al]

For me, the choice comes down to two pistols. The Steyr GB, almost impossible to find, but still out there.

Or the Para-Ordnance P18-9. Neither one is cheap to get, and both are well made pistols.

In my Humble opinion that is. :D

[Stony Lane]

Beretta Billennium! (Only 2,000 made for U.S. sale.)

Also, honorable mention, Beretta Steel I.

[TexasRifleman]

If you are going per ounce price, look at the Rohrbaugh R9/S
Lot of money for a half a handful of handgun......


http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/R9_files/image002.jpg

[modifiedbrowning]

Walther P88.

[XDKingslayer]

I've got a silly question, actually a few.

First, if money was no option, then why would you buy a 9mm?

Second, isn't buying the worlds best/most expensive 9mm kinda like buying a Ferarri and putting a Ford Escort engine in it?

For this much money there are way cooler guns in way cooler calibers...

[albanian]

If someone was buying me one, I would take the Korth. If it were my money, I would go with a Kahr K-9 Elite. The Kahr is my version of the perfect personal handgun.

I have examined but not shot the SIG 210 and H&K P7 but I was not impressed with either of them. Maybe if I shot them, I would be more impressed. They didn't feel all that good in my hand and they just didn't do anything for me.

Kahr is the H&K P-7 beater and the S&W 952 is the SIG 210 beater. IMHO.

[Big Gay Al]

First, if money was no option, then why would you buy a 9mm?

Second, isn't buying the worlds best/most expensive 9mm kinda like buying a Ferarri and putting a Ford Escort engine in it?

For this much money there are way cooler guns in way cooler calibers...
Trying to compare cars AND engines to pistols and calibers, well, I won't comment.

As for WHY someone would buy a 9mm if money was no object. I would say there could be two responses for it.

1. Maybe they like the caliber.
2. MAYBE they can shoot 9mm better than they can something else.
3. I think it's safe to say that anyone could find their "ultimate" gun in whatever caliber they wanted. This one just asked about 9mm.

Ok, I lied, there could three, THREE responses. ;)

[ugaarguy]

Second, isn't buying the worlds best/most expensive 9mm kinda like buying a Ferarri and putting a Ford Escort engine in it?

Per the Ferrari website the F430 has a v-8 that displaces 263 (262.89 to be exact) cubic inches. Per the Ford website the Escort's replacement, the Focus, has a 121 or 140 cubic inch I-4. For comparison the Corvette in base form has 364 CID V-8, and that grows to 427 CID in Z06 form. Another comparison is the Noble M12 which uses a 3.0 liter Ford Duratec v-6 - literally a rebuilt and turboed escort/taurus engine Different means to accomplish the same goal.

[Tubwaa]

to answer a few questions asked in the responses above..

why 9mm ?
Being based in Australia the largest calibre allowed is the .357 and whilst I am pretty new to to the auto game I have been told the only 2 real options are 9mm or .38 Super.

I will be using it for as many disciplines as possible but at the end of the day it will be 100% for target shooting with no carry or defence requirement.

I want a high quality, reliable, accurate pistol - those are the main three attributes and after that well looks, reputation & style etc would just be a bonus !

thanks for all the suggestions so far

[johnsonrlp]

You might consider just getting a really nice (I.E. high quality, reliable, accurate) plain looking gun and then get it customized w/ whatever floats your boat. That way it's trully and uniquely yours.

[pablo45]

Hk p7
korth
Fn high power

[fvf]

If we are talking about looks:
A Taurus PT92 Model 92SSGR-17

If we are talking about form and function:
A H&K USP9

My 2 cents

[jaysouth]

Tuned Performance center Smith 952 or PPC

OR

STI Rangemaster or Wilson Combat 1911s.

My money would be on the 1911s. More parts and smiths to work on them. Every single person I have known with a Sig 210 is now shooting a 1911. Most still have the Sigs, but the 1911s go to the range with them.

My personal wet dream would be a Les Baer mated frame and slide send off for AA engraving, then a trip to Jerry Keefer in Richmond, VA to become one of his PPC guns. All probably do-abe under $5,000 and in less than three years.

[Big Gay Al]

If we are talking about looks:
A Taurus PT92 Model 92SSGR-17

Ok, I'll go with that. In that case, I already have my "for looks" Rolls-Royce."

http://www.albertlowe.com/images/rollsroyce.gif
PT-911SSGR. No -15 after this model number. It was made before the AWB sunset, so it came with a 10 round mag. I ordered 2 15 round mags that I use now. :D

I used this down in New Orleans. I'm told some of the guys I worked with couldn't tell the difference between me and the New Orleans Pimps. I told them, it's easy. My pimp gun doesn't have pearl grips. :evil:

[Dr.Rob]

The Steyr GB is certainly an interesting pistol, it's also finicky and when its gas sytem jams it jams SOLID until the gun cools off.

[Hawk]

P7 is nice but it'd be a shame not to carry it. Might as well have more sight radius if it's a target machine, and a better trigger and maybe a touch more weight, and something that doesn't toast your trigger finger...

(before I get swarmed, I own 2 P7s, but the poster said "Target")

I keep hearing about Korth semi's gagging - unlike their buttery smooth revolver. Sometimes more money is just ... more money.

Browning HP in Sunday-go-to-meeting duds is sweet.

But for the use you describe, the P210 is hard to beat.

Gratuitous BHP plug:
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=30268&d=1130024264

[GUNS_N_WRENCHES]

I have a Glock 17, 26, 27, and 22.
You can shoot any round you want in any for practice n omatter how inexpensive and they are nearly indestructable.
I also have 2 sigs.
When it comes down to reliability, I would grab the glock.
They tell me you can soak them in salt water and a 5 gallon bucket of motor oil and they still will fire.
Just a thought.

[cardboardkiller]

A Glock is more like the International Scout of the firearms world. Rolls Royce it is not. :D

[John C]

Well, if you're looking for a primarily target pistol, to presumably use for many disciplines, then probably the "Rolls Royce" isn't what you want.

(Unless it's a Rolls Royce Merlin engine, the one that powered the Supermarine Spitfire)

Rolls Royces are made to be comfortable and flashy. I want a pistol that performs.

Many of the pistols that have been mentioned won't "do it all". P7? Great carry pistol and perfect for the IPSC range, but will it hold 3 inches at 50 yards offhand for bullseye? A SIG 210 or S&W 952 will hold at 50 yards, but with single stack mags, will they be competive on the IPSC field?

The Korths, etc. are seriously pimpin', but I've never heard anything about them being particularly accurate or even good pistols.

If I were in your shoes, I'd want the best "do it all" pistol, and so I'd probably get a plain jane Beretta 92FS and send it to David Sams. You'll get it back ($2600 later) capable of holding 3 inches at 50 yards with military spec ball ammo. The trigger will be perfect, tuned to 3.5lbs. At home in both bullseye and IPSC.

Or I do what I did for my .45. I got a Pardini GT-45. They also make it in 9mm and .40. This is an Italian made pistol that, out of the box, will shoot the magical 3 inches at 50 yards. High Capacity (if that's allowed in Oz). The trigger is completely user adjustable via two hex screws in the trigger guard, for weight and letoff. A truly awesome pistol.

-John

[mindwip]

Another vote for a hi-power but make sure its the browning MK III which is the newest version and has some upgrades on it. Whats not to like, used by more almost every gov over the last 70 years, The hi-power is like the 1911 just in a better offering the 9mm;). Both share a great history with a great gun.

Great site about the hi-power
www.hipowersandhandguns.com


http://www.browning.com/products/catalog/firearms/images/051001m.jpg


or the same gun but the duel tone

http://www.browning.com/products/catalog/firearms/images/051005m.jpg

they also have a blued finish one,

[mindwip]

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_2_50/ai_112128013

Good artical on the history of the hi-power

[MrAcheson]

Get a hipower and have Ted Yost give it the works.

Now granted that is more like a shelby mustang of 9mms than the Rolls Royce, but I really don't care.

[Srigs]

Smith Performance Center 952 would be ideal 9mm out of the box accurate pistol.

[English1]

The SIG 210 was definitely not designed for target shooting - it was the standard Swiss military side arm for about four decades. It is also very expensive and very accurate and it lasts for ever and it has a super trigger and an excellent grip shape and it has elegant lines, but it only has an eight shot magazine and only the latest version (somthing like the 7th) had a magazine release near the trigger. Only the Swiss would use it for their army but for target shooting, provided the hammer doesn't bite you as it does for about 25% it is a super target pistol. if it does bite you can grind it down a little without any problem. They come in a wide range of quality and minor variations. The military version has fixed sights.

The Spinx 3000 could well be described as a Rolls Royce 9mm. They are expensive, beautifully made, ergonomic, have excellent triggers with a choice of SA only or DA/SA. Highly recommended.

The S&W52 top end model is the last, I can't remember the proper designation. Another near perfect 9mm target pistol by reputation but unlike the other two I have no personal knowledge of it.

English1

[Peter M. Eick]

http://pages.sbcglobal.net/eickpm/210x2.jpg

The best is the 210's in my opinion. I really like mine a bunch and they are the best I could expect in a full sized 9mm.

http://pages.sbcglobal.net/eickpm/3p7s.jpg

These are the runner ups. P7 PSP's. I like the PSP's over the M8's because of the way the mag eject hits my hand. They are close but they are not 210's.

[J.M.N.]

Contact SVI and order the Titanium TIKI pistol in 9mm, I'll bet money becomes an issue then...:evil:

[Lonestar]

For something small a Rohrbaugh R9 Stainless (go for over $1000)

Larger the Sig 210

I have seen a stainless PT92 Taurus up close and they do look very "shiney" however with the gold accents it looks like a Rolls Royce owned by a pimp or rapper. Soming pretty to pistol whip your Ho:p

[atblis]

No doubt.

[HMMurdock]

Korth is too pricey for even a Rolls Royce. And does anyone make holsters for them?

P7 is outstanding, but difficult to shoot if you train with anything else (because of the unique squeeze cocker).

I'd suggest the FN Hi-Power because they work (common in combat zones in Iraq with insurgents and civilian contractors that know their @#%^, and you can personalize the hell out of it.

Only other thing suitable to customize so much, in my opinion, would be a 1911 but many see chambering a 1911 in 9mm as neutering the damned thing since it's long been .45. So for the "Rolls Royce" of 9mms, I'd say the Hi-Power. You can drive her around town and show her off, fix her up a bit to personal specs and still have fun. The Korths of the world are the cars you'd find in Jay Leno's garage. Nice to look at and say you have but not practical in the slightest (in my personal opinion-- sorry if I offended anyone!)...

TRL

[45R]

Your two choices would be the Sig 210 or the Sig X-5L1 Two of the best 9mm pistols on the market.

[mindwip]

Well have you picked one yet?


dont listen to all those saying sig they fall apart worst pistols:neener: Get the hi-power it feels better then sig, and last forever

[Cousin Mike]

...and I lived in a place where anything .357"+ is illegal?

I'd move to the US and buy whatever the hell I wanted :D

Sorry, just kidding (sort of), I just had to say it. :evil:

Have you come any closer to making a decision on your 9mm? I'd probably have to add that Odin's Eye Korriphila to my list based on looks alone... That S&W 952 is a beauty as well.

Someone asked what car analogy one would use to describe a Glock 18C...
I'd say a rice-rocket. Any rice rocket of any make or model. Maybe a tricked out, neon green Nissan - with matching brake pads :evil:

Mindwip: I see that! :D

Blasphemy!! lol

[Mayo]

No question it is either the P210 or the P7M8!:D

[Correia]

Of all the posters on here voting for a Sig 210, how many of you have ever actually shot one?

I thought it was nice, but I didn't get all flabbergasted by it.

[mindwip]

I'd move to the US and buy whatever the hell I wanted

Sorry, just kidding (sort of), I just had to say it

But dont move to CAL or Newyork it will be just as sad as were you live now.

Cousin Mike: See what??:cool:



ps i have shot a sig (226)in the past becuase i was planning on buying one but the one i rented was "bad" for me the feel of the gun was off, just did not feel like it was right. Plus i had crappy ammo out of 50 rds 20 did not even fire just sat there. Rent both and see what feels good to you.

[varoadking]

If we are talking about looks:
A Taurus PT92 Model 92SSGR-17

:what: :barf:


Of all the posters on here voting for a Sig 210, how many of you have ever actually shot one?


A better question might be: Of all the posters here comparing something to a Rolls Royce - how many have driven one?

[mindwip]

OO oOOo i have seen one up close does that count:confused:

[Peter M. Eick]

Correia,

Yes, I shoot my 2 210's. I find them to be very nice and easy to shoot well but to a certain extent I do not believe they are "intrinsically" better then say a very nicely hand built 1911. What you are buying is the workmanship, not a fundementally better design. Yes it has some advantages, but if it were that dramatically better everyone would copy it.

The biggest difference is the fit and finish of the gun. The insides of my 210's are better finished then the outsides of my colt 1911. That is what you pay the extra say 2000$ for. Yes you also get better accuracy and better reliablity for your $2000 but in general you are buying fit and finish.

[freedom and guns]

A Browning Hi Power with a nickel finish or gold leaf, 24 carat ambidextrous safety and cherry stained (rare) tropical hardwood grips,

[PT-Partners]

Personally and it may not be what the original posters objective was. A full house custom Browning High Power by one of the one man shops such as Ted Yost, Wayne Novak, or Richard Heinie (does very few).

Second and easier to find. Sig P210.

And I have shot both many, many times. I prefer the feel of the BHP due to my hand size but I really like the Sig P210.

Many others out there are very good but due to my hand size, experience level and just plain "what I like" are just not as good.

[GroovedG19]

Sig P210, S&W 952, HK P7, Sig X5

[Smith357]

For me it's a Belgian Browning Hi-Power. The original wunder nine.

[OH25shooter]

Still not sure what Rolls Royce means to you. But, I'll assume you mean a solid combination of looks, reliablity and accuracy. For me, it's my P99. I think she's pretty accurate. Can you get the Walther down under? Mine was manufactured in Germany.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y68/OH25shooter/DSCN1027.jpg

[Hawk]

Of all the posters on here voting for a Sig 210, how many of you have ever actually shot one?
Raises hand. Wasn't mine, though.

Then again, I never did fire the Korth.
:)

[Dave Markowitz]

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c340/davemarkowitz/BHP_Practical.jpg

[ramon]

I like classic Rolls and fine machines. Ever fire a HK P9s? It feels more like a fine watch than a gun when it cycles. Also Walter P5. Those are Rolls Royces IMHO.

[Michael Zeleny]

Of all the posters on here voting for a Sig 210, how many of you have ever actually shot one?Yes. (http://larvatus.livejournal.com/33732.html)

[JCB1911]

Walther P5 or SIG 210

[hakr]

Of 9's actually available new today, between the S&W longslide 952 and the Sig X-Five, which is inherently more accurate and of higher quality?

[alpha6164]

I say definitely an HK P7M8 or M13

[PO2Hammer]

This is the thread that finaly got to me.

I bought a S&W 952.

Now that I've been shooting it for a couple months, it is certainly the finest auto pistol I've ever shot.

I've never seen a pistol with dual rails before. The main rails on the frame like a 1911, and a second set of rails lower and on the dustcover. Amazing fit between slide and frame (hand lapped).

The spherical barrel bushing (Briley style) is also a perfect fit.

I'm not even good enough to test the accuracy. From the bench any decent load shoots 1-1/2" or less at 25 yards (about all the better I can see).

All that fitting and accuracy and it has been 100% reliable from round one.

[Michael Zeleny]

I've never seen a pistol with dual rails before.The Browning Hi-Power has dual rails.

[atblis]

Of all the posters on here voting for a Sig 210, how many of you have ever actually shot one?

I thought it was nice, but I didn't get all flabbergasted by it.

That makes the analogy even more valid. Most of us will never drive a Rolls, and it most likely isn't too high up on our list of things to do.

So we're comparing a gun we've never shot to a car we've never driven.

[Dr.Rob]

Just to spit in the wind... I forgot the Novak's Custom HRT Browning Hi-Power and the sleek HK P9S Target model.

A gentleman doesn't need such details as colobolo grips hand checkered at 24 lines per inch, rather, he demands them.

That's the kind of hooplah you got with an Ambercrombie and Fitch cased Luger, or a Rolls.

[Eightball]

Korriphila Odin's eye? Never heard of it, just saw it a few minutes ago :eek: . What can anyone say about them?

Aside from that, I'd say a Korth, as well. It isn't like everyone on the block's going to have some derivative of it, that's for sure.

[Ultima-Ratio]

Greetings from Anchorage Alaska, having owned at least several of all the guns mentioned the only 9mm I'm still lusting after is a one off show gun Beretta made (comp-ducktail etc) but, what the HK P-7 folks always neglect to mention is the terrible heat generated in extended firing sessions!
My pick is the custom shop S&W 952, STS or Blue you choose. The 952 is fully capable of besting the accuracy of the highly modified AMU Berettas (Army Marksmanship Unit). I bought my last one at a local discount store for a bargain $1000.00, good luck mate!

[Kymasabe]

Sig P226 X-five....no comparison.

[The Real Hawkeye]

I'll add the old all Belgian made Hi-PowersI second that.

[JohnKSa]

Greetings from Anchorage Alaska, having owned at least several of all the guns mentioned...Hey Monte,

What did you think of the Korths and the Korriphilas you owned? I'm impressed, I've never heard from anyone who owned a Korriphila, let alone several. :rolleyes:

[Serpico]

You could spend more, but I don't think there are two finer 9mms than the Hi-Power and the P7.
http://www.parkcitiestactical.com/album/00000364/1IMG0001.JPG

[ShootinDave]

The S&W 3953 is my favorite 9mm i have ever shot..... it might not be a rolls royce psitol.... but I wouldn't trade it for one. A lot of my buddies like their Sig better.... but the S&W fits me much better and was half as much.

Price and reviews don't make a pistol. Its how you shoot it.... thats your Rolls Royce.

[Michael Zeleny]

Yes, I shoot my 2 210's. I find them to be very nice and easy to shoot well but to a certain extent I do not believe they are "intrinsically" better then say a very nicely hand built 1911. What you are buying is the workmanship, not a fundementally better design. Yes it has some advantages, but if it were that dramatically better everyone would copy it.The reason that no one copies the SIG P210 is the prohibitive expense of its manufacture. The difficulty of precisely machining full length inverted frame rails from scratch is one example. By contrast, CZ-75 and its clones get around this problem by substituting cheap castings for forging or steel billet. Similar considerations apply to the Luger that inspired its method of frame/receiver coupling. The only postwar Lugers machined from forgings in the traditional fashion have been priced over $10,000.

In fact, the difficulty of copying the P210 design ultimately stymied even its original makers, whose manufacturing techniques and quality of fit steadily deteriorated starting in 1981. A typical P210 of recent manufacture can scarcely measure up to its predecessors made from the Sixties through the mid-Eighties.

[PhillyGlocker]

The Glock 19
http://www.gold-elektronic.com.pl/szescset/glock19.jpg

[Zero_DgZ]

No, I think the G19 is more like the '76 olds that simply refuses to die, no matter what you do to it.

And if that's so, my Storm is the '99 Honda Accord with a jet engine strapped to it.

[Dodger02WS6]

Hmm, since you said target, and no carry, I'd say Beretta Steel I 92 SA, not as rare as a Billie and not as flashy, but still gets the job done at 1/2 the cost.
If you don't like the Vertec Grip, find an Elite II 92G.

[Manedwolf]

No, I believe the Glock is the Saturn. Or Ford Taurus. :D

Absolutely NO style at all, but it'll run.

[4fingermick]

Peters Stahl, definetly in Rolls Royce territory.

My recommendation would be from what I've seen:

Bullseye/USP style Target shooting:

952 S&W:
(more Lincoln/Cadillac territory than Rolls)

SIG 210:
(definetly a Roller)

Peters Stahl:
( A real Roller this one and you can get different cal barrels, most of which you can't use in Australia. This is made like Swiss Watch and is made of metal that just won't quit, a great for Service Pistol in Australia, but make sure it fits in the box for IUT/Olympic style shooting*)

Service style shooting

SIG 226 or whatever the new one is:
great pistol and definetly in Rolls territory.

You can make a 1911 perform like a roller, but these guys are no expense pistols, straight out of the box, are priced accordingly and work like a dream.

Best all rounder first pistol for a new shooter in a pistol club in Australia:

a .22LR standard pistol (the new Baikals are as good as some of the Rolls Royce pistols at half the price. You can compete in more matches with this sort of pistol, aren't reliant on relaoding ammo or getting someone else to do it and will prepare you properly for a centrefire (I know you didn't want to hear this, but if you seriously want to be a good shot, you have to get your ground strokes right.)

Best all rounder first centrefire pistol for a 'newish' shooter in a pistol club in Australia who has learnt to master his 22:

S&W 38 Special or 357. K frame without the sexy underlug (al la 586, these are too heavy to hold one handed for most target disciplines).

Go ask the champeens, none of them started with a centrefire and in Australia you are a target shooter period :-(

Bitter pills to swallow, but that's the way it is, if you are not serious about becoming a really good shot, start at the top, it's up to you. Good luck.

Mick.

[Texas9]

I'm going brave on this one. I read the first 70 or so posts, and didn't see one mention of the Sexiest Damn Pistol on Earth, the Beretta 92FS Inox.:what:

Oh, it's bling you want? I give you the 92FS Deluxe.:cool:

http://www.beretta.com/dati/ImmaginiProdottiBeretta%5C2%5C82_elenco.jpg

http://www.beretta.com/dati/ImmaginiProdottiBeretta%5C2%5C81_elenco.jpg

The drooling starts now.:evil:

Also available in blued.

[berettaman]

Hands down it's the Billineum.:neener:

[Shear_stress]

The reason that no one copies the SIG P210 is the prohibitive expense of its manufacture. The difficulty of precisely machining full length inverted frame rails from scratch is one example. By contrast, CZ-75 and its clones get around this problem by substituting cheap castings for forging or steel billet.

No argument from me about the first sentance. However, the second and third are not quite accurate. There is nothing magical or particularly difficult about milling inverted rails. At worst, it is simply a matter of making up a custom cutting tool to chuck in the mill. I assure you that this would be one of many custom-made cutters needed to perform all the machining operations in practically any firearm.

The third sentance confuses a cast frame (which CZs have, just like a multi-thousand dollar Caspian-framed race-gun) with cast-in features. Yes, the full-length frame rails of a CZ pistol are indeed machined (you can tell by the rough commie tool marks, natch). I know you are a fan of the P210, but, please, there is no need to run down other pistols in order to enjoy yours.

Now back to your first sentance. I agree that the prohibitive cost of the P210 is due in part to that famous Swiss quality, but it is also a product of high labor costs and simple economies of scale. The Sig P220 was developed for a reason, sheetmetal slide and all.

[Michael Zeleny]

There is nothing magical or particularly difficult about milling inverted rails. At worst, it is simply a matter of making up a custom cutting tool to chuck in the mill. I assure you that this would be one of many custom-made cutters needed to perform all the machining operations in practically any firearm.The word from P210 historians is that SIG found the inverted frame rails much harder and costlier to machine to the required dimensions and tolerances. I have no idea why the same considerations should not apply to the slide rails on the M1911. But absent reliable evidence or knock-down arguments to the contrary, I am inclined to take them at their word.Yes, the full-length frame rails of a CZ pistol are indeed machined (you can tell by the rough commie tool marks, natch). I know you are a fan of the P210, but, please, there is no need to run down other pistols in order to enjoy yours.The cost of machining plummets when gunmakers start out with castings made in the shape roughly approximating the finished part. By contrast, "old school" P210 frames started out as forging that weighed 2.33 kg, ending up at .033 kg after 107 machining operations. No other postwar service handgun was nearly as labor-intensive.The Sig P220 was developed for a reason, sheetmetal slide and all.Yes. But note that Sauer continues to treat its design as cost-effective even after taking its execution upmarket with the X-Five and the like. Regrettably, that was not to be with the P210.

[doubleg]

http://www.sigarms.com/images/catalog/product/226X5allround_left.jpg

[Shear_stress]

The cost of machining plummets when gunmakers start out with castings made in the shape roughly approximating the finished part. By contrast, "old school" P210 frames started out as forging that weighed 2.33 kg, ending up at .033 kg after 107 machining operations.

Both forging and casting result in blanks that are approximately the same shape as the finished part and both forged and cast blanks require serious hogging out in order to obtain their final shapes. That's part of the entire point of forging, besides work hardening the material. The P210 frame is not machined from a billet like the "flame pantographed" Inglis High-Power (made by a washing machine company, of all things) or even the original AK-47 receivers. And for some perspective, until CNC became king, it took over 2000 operations to build a simple S&W Model 10 in the 1950s, not including 500 different inspections. Recall that, until the late 1990s, nearly every part of a S&W Model 10 was forged, machined and hand-fitted.

The word from P210 historians is that SIG found the inverted frame rails much harder and costlier to machine to the required dimensions and tolerances. I have no idea why the same considerations should not apply to the slide rails on the M1911. But absent reliable evidence or knock-down arguments to the contrary, I am inclined to take them at their word.

I am not sure who these historians are, or whether they also happen to be engineers as well as historians, so it is difficult to respond to this argument. However, this does not change the fact that the Czechs, Italians, Israelis, Turks, and Chinese are also somehow capable of machining inverted rails in CZs and CZ clones without resulting in one, two, or three thousand dollar guns.

Again, I do not say this to diminish the quality of the P210. There is no question that it is a fine piece. All I am trying to convey is something you say yourself:

No other postwar service handgun was nearly as labor-intensive.

This is the key to the high cost of the P210: labor, not design. The gun was expensive to make because it was largely made by hand by Swiss laborers. Cost, volume, and production efficiency were not priorities, so SiG could indulge in more time-honored methods of manufacture. For comparison, look at the Smith and Wesson Registered Magnum, considered by some to be one of the finest revolvers ever made. From a design standpoint, it is essentially the same as any other Hand-Ejector. However, each RM involved a tremendous amount of hand fitting and finishing. That is where the cost came from, not a design handed down from god or reversed engineered from alien spacecraft or made from dead unicorns.

[Michael Zeleny]

The cost of machining plummets when gunmakers start out with castings made in the shape roughly approximating the finished part. By contrast, "old school" P210 frames started out as forging that weighed 2.33 kg, ending up at .033 kg after 107 machining operations.Both forging and casting result in blanks that are approximately the same shape as the finished part. The P210 frame is not machined from a billet, like the "frame pantographed" Inglis High-Power (made by a washing machine company, of all things) or even the original AK-47 receivers. Both forged and cast blanks require serious hogging out in order to obtain their final shapes. And for some perspective, until CNC became king, it took over 2000 operations to build a simple S&W Model 10 in the 1950s, not including 500 different inspections. Recall that, until the late 1990s, nearly every part of a S&W Model 10 was forged, machined and fitted (often by hand).The original pattern of SIG P210 frame forgings can be seen in Lorenz Vetter, Das große Buch der SIG-Pistolen, Stuttgart, Verlag Stocker-Schmid, Dietikon-Zürich / Motorbuch Verlag, Stuttgart, 1995, p. 180. Whereas H.P. Doebeli, Die SIG Pistolen, Motorbuch Verlag, Stuttgart, 1981, p. 190, spells out the transition to frames machined out of steel billet.The word from P210 historians is that SIG found the inverted frame rails much harder and costlier to machine to the required dimensions and tolerances. I have no idea why the same considerations should not apply to the slide rails on the M1911. But absent reliable evidence or knock-down arguments to the contrary, I am inclined to take them at their word.I am not sure who these historians are, or whether they also happen to be engineers as well as historians, so it is difficult to respond to this argument. However, this does not change the fact that the Czechs, Italians, Israelis, Turks, and Chinese are also somehow capable of machining inverted rails in CZs and CZ clones without resulting in one, two, or three thousand dollar guns.I have identified the historians above. The key aspect of the P210 is its manufacture to strictly regulated dimensions and tolerances. As I pointed out above, this quality is not to be found not only in the CZ-75 and its derivatives, but also in the Neuhausen pistols produced from the Eighties onwards. No other postwar service handgun was nearly as labor-intensive.This is the key to the high cost of the P210: labor, not design. The gun was expensive to make because it was largely made by hand by Swiss laborers. Cost, volume, and production efficiency were not priorities, so SiG could indulge in more time-honored methods of manufacture. For comparison, look at the Smith and Wesson Registered Magnum, considered by some to be one of the finest revolvers every made. From a design standpoint, it is essentially the same as any other Hand-Ejector. However, each RM involved a tremendous amount of hand fitting and finishing. That is where the cost came from, not a design handed down from god or reversed engineered from alien spacecraft or made from dead unicorns.The word on this board (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=240615) is that postwar S&W triggers and hammers have been punched out of steel plate, then cold forged and machined as necessary. If that is the case, it would account for much of the cost disparity. Note also the switch to a cast hammer action housing on the P210, taking place some time in the early Nineties.

[Shear_stress]

The original pattern of SIG P210 frame forgings can be seen in Lorenz Vetter, Das große Buch der SIG-Pistolen, Stuttgart, Verlag Stocker-Schmid, Dietikon-Zürich / Motorbuch Verlag, Stuttgart, 1995, p. 180. Whereas H.P. Doebeli, Die SIG Pistolen, Motorbuch Verlag, Stuttgart, 1981, p. 190, spells out the transition to frames machined out of steel billet.

That's terrific, but it doesn't really get to the heart of my argument. My examples of the Inglis High-Power and AK-47 both demonstrate that you can make a cheap gun entirely from billet if you have to. The pattern of the forgings is neither here nor there. If you really want to draw a comparison, please post some pictures or engineering specs that show how these patterns are radically simpler than, say, the average S&W frame.

The word on this board is that postwar S&W triggers and hammers have been punched out of steel plate, then cold forged and machined as necessary. If that is the case, it would account for much of the cost disparity.

Right. Forgings have to start out as something--plate or billet or, dare I say, even a casting.

The key aspect of the P210 is its manufacture to strictly regulated dimensions and tolerances. As I pointed out above, this quality is not to be found not only in the CZ-75 and its derivatives, but also in the Neuhausen pistols produced from the Eighties onwards.

Once again, I clearly wasn't trying to compare the tolerances of the CZ with the P210, just to highlight the fact that the design is less important than you have been arguing. Recall that the P210 borrows much from the French Model 1935-A, anyway. The point is that it's costly to achieve tight tolerances when you are using highly-paid labor and Old World production techniques and you are building in relatively small volumes.

And that is what makes something the Rolls-Royce of anything.

[PzGren]

The Rolls Royce would probably really be the Korth, they were pretty much made to custom order.
The SIG P210 is probably one of the nicest 9mm semi autos around but is more of a regular production gun. The German Bundesgrenzschutz had the P210-4 and the Danish army had them as a regular issue, P210-2, I think.

[Michael Zeleny]

My examples of the Inglis High-Power and AK-47 both demonstrate that you can make a cheap gun entirely from billet if you have to. The pattern of the forgings is neither here nor there. If you really want to draw a comparison, please post some pictures or engineering specs that show how these patterns are radically simpler than, say, the average S&W frame. Vetter reproduces the original engineering briefs, which would be a good starting point for anyone qualified to evaluate this issue. I do not claim such qualifications. My contribution is to report admittedly partial views of this gun's makers and hagiographers arguing that its design is particularly ill-suited to cheap manufacturing techniques. That is, other factors being equal, it costs more to maintain dimensions and tolerances on the P210 layout than it does on the M1911, the TT-33, the GP35, the Modelle 1935, etc.

[incursion]

SIG 210

I've shot multiple SIG 210s. The gun is the ish.

P7s

Victor Tibbets 1911 Commander bobtail

[BUGS]

Hands down...Sig 210, BUT my HK P9S .45 Target out shoots it :-)! Both have superb triggers.

[briansp82593]

p210 p88 korth are all nice now what about the gun you cant get
the sig X-SIX muahahaha :evil: :evil:

[g5reality]

When It comes to guns I want functional and reliable. I don't want expensive repairs & maintanence. Therfore, I would chose a Glock 9mm or a sig. I like the beretta's that Texas9 shows above, they are beautiful guns, but I hate jams and expensive repairs.

Easy Field stripping readily available parts, it's a Glock. And I'd consider a Glock to be more a hummer type vehicle, go anywhere do anything tough, and almost indestructible.

I've driven RR and I don't like them I prefer a Bently. But when It comes to SD, HD, survival, or anything else I want to know It's going to work and work well. Golck or Sig in 9mm

[DMK]

http://www.hlebooks.com/images/luger/lumari3.JPG
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luger_pistol

[Walt Sherrill]

I've had the following:

SIG P-210-6, Sphinx 2000 (series), and Luger, custom AT-84s (precursor to the Sphinx?), and Browning Hi-Power. (No longer have the SIG or Luger.)

The SIG and Sphinx shoot with similar accuracy, but the Sphinx is more user friendly. The Luger was marvelously accurate (despite a post-WWII rearsenal job in the Soviet Union and a badly-pitted barrel), and the AT-84s is close to the Sphinx in most regards, but not quite as accurate.

The S&W 952 (never had one, but have shot them, and close to the Model 52 I did have) is also a fine gun. The CZ Challenger (based on the standard 75B farme) is probably close in most ways.

I'd argue that only the P-210 and Sphinx warrant the comparison to a Rolls Royce, in terms of finish and fitting and quality work -- but all of the gun mentioned here shoot remarkably well/accurately.

[waynedm]

A Glock is more like the International Scout of the firearms world. Rolls Royce it is not.

That had me rolling! :evil:

My vote on this would have to be something like the CZ Champion in 9mm. It'll do your 3" or less at 50 yards that you said you wanted. They MSRP around $1700.

If CZ the company isn't your cup of vodka you could go for the Tanfoglio Gold Custom Eric.

If you wanted a Hi Power we have one at work right now that's going for $2000 new in box, it supposedly has grips on it made from the last surviving Liberty Tree, complete with display box with the story of the grips.

[RandomTask]

HK PSP/P7M8, the Mercedes 300GD of guns.
Accurate enough for targets, small enough to carry, reliable.
If you factor out the reliabilty, it becomes a Land Rover.

[Bongo45]

YO, A SOLID GOLD HI-POINT!!

[GoodKat]

go here: Infinity Firearms (http://www.sviguns.com/)

You can make whatever you want, and it will have UNBEATABLE accuracy and outstanding looks.

here are some samples

http://sviguns.com/photo_gallery/117.jpg
http://sviguns.com/photo_gallery/36.jpg
http://sviguns.com/photo_gallery/54.jpg
http://sviguns.com/photo_gallery/40.jpg

These are the ultimate in looks and performance, and they are availabe in almost any caliber.

[hankdatank1362]

Remember Crockett's (Colin Farrel) 1911 in the 2006 "Miami Vice" movie?

That was an SVI TIKI.

Sexy as all hell.

[Ultima-Ratio]

UNBEATABLE Accuracy??

I searched your linked website looking for some 50 yd targets, do you have some to post?

FYI, some time ago a member of the U.S. Shooting Team posted his "creds" along with targets and match results using a Smith 952 and there was also a parallel thread about the Armies AMU Beretta (a $6K custom) also discussing accuracy.

As a gun culture type I abhor hyperbole in firearm advertising that even a novice would whisper BS. We all know that the STI would be defeated badly in say an accuracy comparison with a SSK single shot in .30 Whisper @ 100yds. ;)

[dhoomonyou]

Glock 26.

[R.W.Dale]

For me it's the MAB P-15

http://unblinkingeye.com/Guns/MABP15/MAB15001/IMGP4739MABRM.jpg

[yhtomit]

If you've got a sick sense of humor and search long enough for "P210" among THR threads, you'll find one from a few months back which is perhaps the end-all-forever most ridiculous discussion ever of that pistol and just how awesome it is ;)

timothy

[Geno]

Rolls Royce = Custom Browning High Power :cool:

Hummer = Glock 18 :what:

Yugo = High Point :neener:

Couldn't resist. :o

Doc2005

[Lonestar49]

If you've got a sick sense of humor and search long enough for "P210" among THR threads, you'll find one from a few months back which is perhaps the end-all-forever most ridiculous discussion ever of that pistol and just how awesome it is

timothy


...

Right you are Tim.. lol

I'm still wondering, with 6 pages here, and seemily going strong, if our friend will "continue the perfection of the P210" within this thread any day now..lol


Ls

[tntwatt]

Handle as many as you can. Shoot them. Don't look at cost. Don't look at style. Once you find the one you like, CUSTOMIZE THE HECK OUT OF IT. Then you'll get the pistol you want and it'll mean alot more to you.

Look at the guys with money enough to buy a Royles and I'll bet the car they like the most is the custom job in the garage. Be it an old Mustang or a Mercedes. Customizing it will make it yours.

[RONSTAR]

the P7 gold plated. the P7 IMHO is the ultimate concealers nine.

[RAPPY THE DO]

I Knew Somewhere Glocksters Would Show Up. Cz-75 Is Awesome. But I Would Agree And I Do Not Own One Swiss Sig P-210 Would Be The Rolls Royce Of 9mm. But The Cz-75 Would Probaly Out Shoot It.

Shalom

Rappy The Do::banghead:

[thegoodfight]

Glock 17....west siiiiiiiiide represent!

[jocko]

G17 & 19

[Cliff47]

CZ-75 the affordable SIG P210.

[kentucky_smith]

A Novak BHP.

[neviander]

From what I know about the Sig p210, the p210 seems more like a DeLorean than a Rolls. Those Hi-Powers with the fancy etchings seem more like a Rolls.

[redneckrepairs]

No such a critter , Money is allways an issue lol A sig p210 is likely the most accurate ( with ammo it likes ) production . An Hk p7 is likely a short second place and can be legitimately carried. A 1911 can likely be tuned to out shoot either . A BHP might not show ransom accuracy , but you will find a fella who will stand up with a well fitted one and outshoot guys with either the 210 or the p7 . Now ill make my choice lol and note i dont have a 210 , but did shoot one a couple of times , i do have a p7 and a high power . My rolls royce 9mm is a Kahr p9. It is the pistol i will have with me , and if it is not the best tool for any given job ( punching small holes in paper ) it is the tool i am likely to have at the moment for any use. That to me makes it the " Best at any price " no matter what others may do better , no matter the cost comparison the one i have right now is the one that wins .

[M203Sniper]

Another vote for the Rohrbaugh R9/S



http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/R9_files/image010.jpg

[smirnoff a]

I agree on a Rohrbaugh R9/S being a Rolls of pocket pistols, but more compatible to an exotic roadster. As for the full-size model, i'd go with one of the Sphinx models. I also think gun has to be hand-made and made in small numbers to compare to Rolls, so all the high-production models outomatically discqualify.

[oneounceload]

money no object?? get a Korth

http://www.korthusa.com/pistol_en.htm

[Jason_G]

Sig P210

Jason

[steelyblue]

How about a Wilson Combat Tactical Elite in 9mm? That would be a Rolls Royce of a handgun to me!

[HB]

Be Gone Zombie Thread

BHP


HB

[Walt Sherrill]

But I Would Agree And I Do Not Own One Swiss Sig P-210 Would Be The Rolls Royce Of 9mm. But The Cz-75 Would Probaly Out Shoot It.

I owned one for a couple of years. It was an awesome gun (A P-210-6).

But the sights would slice you if you're not careful (had to round them with a file), fast reloads weren't all that easy, thanks to the butt-positioned mag release, and it only held 8 rounds in the mag. (When I last bought one, the mags were roughly $80 each.)

Accuracy? Mine came with a test target showing a 1.75" group at 50 METERS (roughly 55 yards). I could never shoot it that accurately, but it was a very accurate gun. Only a S&W 52-2 I owned came close, and it was actually prettier. But similar problems with capacity, etc.

I have several CZs, and none will come close to that kind of accuracy. But they're a lot easier to handle, to reload, and to use in most situations. For a real-life combat situation, the CZ may be superior. The ergonomics are certainly better.

[razorblade31]

Browning Hi-Power Rennaisance