[cookekdjr]

Most of the crooks I prosecute have, at best, average taste in guns. For every Glock I find 3 Jennings/Bryco/H-Point etc. I've seen 2 CZ's, 1 or 2 SIG's, and a few Rugers. Did have a Kimber once. Have a baby eagle and an HK. Sometimes I'll find a guy with good taste, but nothing that really shouts class. These are criminals after all.
Anyway, today a drug dealer I'm prosecuting was captured with an FN Hi-Power. The real deal. Made in Belgium. Assembled in Portugal.
Of course, he had to ruin it all by having one with an obliterated serial number and a mess of crack rocks in his pocket, too. And he'd fled up to Pittsburgh from Alabama. With the federal sentencing guidelines, he's looking at some real time.
Anyway, I've never seen a Hi-Power in a criminal case before. Maybe they just don't look as cool held sideways...
Oh well. Back to work.
-David

[Taffnevy]

I've been in my local gun shop a few times when some gang bangers came in. They all drool over the cheapest guns in the case.

Maybe they aren't so dumb though. Odds are they will have to ditch it sometime soon.

[HMMurdock]

I couldn't have said it better myself. I see a lot of drug cases processed and I do a bit of fugitive recovery work on my own and there are a number of Glocks, but dozens and dozens of Davis .32s and Jennings .22s and every other piece of junk available. Once in a while I run across the "big bore" Llama .45s, but always junk. Although I must admit many fancy the Glock and some Rugers, and a couple of saucy Sig-Sauers. I have even run across a drug dealer with style: a chrome-plated Desert Eagle .44mag!

But it is true, they ditch them at the first sight of authority (since 90% are felons and can't have them to begin with) and a Lorcen .380 is a lot easier to hide and even easier --at least on a conscience level-- to toss out a moving vehicle than even a baby Glock.

He bastiche had a Hi-Power, eh? Sexy. Sounds like he at least had a little taste.

TRL

[KC&97TA]

In a wierd twist of fate; one of the most captured enemy pistols in Iraq is the Browning 9mm I think it was the P-35, I guess Saddam had taste.

They were pretty decent guns and took Beretta mags, so you can draw conclusions as to whether or not we turned them in right away...

[Ala Dan]

You know David my friend, that was my experience in over 20 years as a
LEO; as I don't recall ever seeing a criminal armed with a Hi-Power, or
even a "knock off copy" of one. Like you said, the firearms of choice
seemed too be Bryco's, Jenning's, Raven's, Ruger's, and a few Taurus
firearms. Most of this breed of crooks migrated into our territory from
good ole' Bombingham, AL. I guess there reasoning was that the
"pickings were better" south of town?

[Phenom]

In Michigan career criminal's taste in guns varies by their race. Whites perfer snubbies, blacks seem to have a thing for Tecs and Mac type pistols, and hispanics like cheap autos like Hi-Points.

[Gordon]

So we set up a store front with those guns in stock . We have a trap door infront of the display. When a real gansta comes in (face recognition soft ware) with priors, or just with an anti social bad attitude:evil: they get dropped into the soylent green stump grinder.:neener:
As the population gets thinned down and the crime in an area drops to an acceptable level, the "sting" is over before the New York Times commies start whining about the 'rat trap'!+:D

[soutex50]

Along the Texas/Mexico border towns, Crims prefer and carry high end autos, mostly what they call "del caballito" (the little horse)....Colt that is, in 45 and 38 super. Plenty of Sigs and Glocks and Desert Eagles......

But then again, you are talking about mostly drug dealers and their bodyguards

[Azrael256]

Soutex50, funny story along those lines...

Friend of mine is a criminal defense attorney. He got a client, from your area, acquitted on some major trafficking charge. He accepted, as part of his payment, a teflon-finished Hi-Power with a set of the most pimpilicious yellow and white gold grips one could possibly imagine. I believe they were some kind of family crest. The sights were gold plated, as were the trigger, mag release, slide stop, safety, and hammer. This thing was so unbelieveably ostentatious, and yet strangely alluring at the same time.

So, he calls me to come take a look at it because he knows I'll like it. Being a bit suspicious, I persuaded him that perhaps we should take it on down to the police station to let them give it a look before he locked it away in the safe. Luckily, it turned out to have a completely legitimate origin. We discovered shortly thereafter that it was listed, among a few dozen similar guns, in the client's bankruptcy filing.

I don't know what happened to it, as I haven't really kept up with that fellow, but I did tell him that if he ever wanted to sell it, I would happily give him $50 for it.

[cookekdjr]

This thing was so unbelieveably ostentatious, and yet strangely alluring at the same time.
hmmmmm...methinks you are describing more than one vice...:rolleyes:

[soutex50]

Azrael256, it gets even better......currently rotting away in an evidence vault:

Complete, yes i said complete "el" Colt series from Lew Horton, from one individual! Presidente, Soldado, Teniente, Capitan, Torero, so on, so on.....

Full auto Thompson Commando
hundreds of Belgian made HP's in blue and stainless
1911 Colts in all sizes, colors, and flavors
not to mention the ones with engraving, stones, gold plating

What I am trying to get at is that these guys carry what the great THR folks call BBQ guns but to an extreme since money is no object.
But then again we have ran into the occassional dumb#@% who had his Llama or chinese norinco gold plated and engraved....it is not very often that we run into one of the cheapies mention in the thread.

[Frog48]

Here's a question for you LEO's...

If some gangbanger or drug dealer, by some strange jury, is aquitted.... and they have no priors which would preclude them from firearms ownership... is the firearm returned to them? Or are they kept and never returned, regardless of outcome?

[Coronach]

If acquitted (note: not plead down), the gun is returned. Acquittals are exceedingly rare, since the elements of offenses like possession of drugs are so very simple. Guilty pleas to lesser offenses are, however, common. Usually the disposition of the property is stipulated in the plea deal. When staring down a felony sentence, very few gangbangers are devout 2nd amendment activists willing to go to trial for their piece. ;)

Also, for some reason, we have had a rash of quality guns used in crimes lately. Glocks, S&Ws (revos and autos), Sigs, Rugers, Springfield XDs etc are outnumbering the Hi-points and Jenningses by a fair margin. I dunno what this means, if anything, but several officers around my jurisdiction have commented on it.

Fortunately, the training standards for illicit CCW seem to be as low as ever. ;)

Mike

[cookekdjr]

Here's a question for you LEO's...

If some gangbanger or drug dealer, by some strange jury, is aquitted.... and they have no priors which would preclude them from firearms ownership... is the firearm returned to them? Or are they kept and never returned, regardless of outcome?

Usually, the perp is already a convicted felon, so its not an issue even if they are aquitted. Also, by the time the guy has his trial, he's often arrested for something else, so the cops can't give it back b/c he can't possess a firearm as a condition of bond.
Alot of times, the cops will drag their feet a little before giving the gun back...and by the time the perp can raise any kind of fuss, he's arrested again, or convicted of something else, or he's killed by another gangbanger, etc.
Just my experience, but that's how its happened. I can tell you that agencies are quicker to give guns back in Alabama than they were in Georgia.

[Old Fuff]

Coronach:

Also, for some reason, we have had a rash of quality guns used in crimes lately. Glocks, S&Ws (revos and autos), Sigs, Rugers, Springfield XDs etc are outnumbering the Hi-points and Jenningses by a fair margin. I dunno what this means, if anything, but several officers around my jurisdiction have commented on it.

I presume ATF&E is doing a trace...

Perhaps if the locals are flush with greenbacks the stuff is being imported...:(

[Coronach]

1. Yeah, most BGs arrested with guns already have felony convictions, so it is WUD anyway, ergo the gun does not get returned.

2. Yes, we run checks through NCIC on all guns taken to the property room out of arrests. Some of them are coming back stolen, but a lot of them were not.

Mike

[cookekdjr]

2. Yes, we run checks through NCIC on all guns taken to the property room out of arrests. Some of them are coming back stolen, but a lot of them were not.

Mike, glad you mentioned that. I forgot just how many of the guns used in crimes come back stolen. Alot of the guns from my murder cases were stolen.

[Onmilo]

I can't remember where I heard this quote, "Yeah, the nine,the big, bad nine."
but it refers to criminals who considered the 9mm as one of the larger calibers, not really needed for their line of work.

One of the larger cities in my area has a gang problem which includes the inevitible shootings.
Years past these shootings involved cheap California made guns and a few hi-points.
Because the calibers were light fatal shootings were rare unless someone managed to catch a bullet in the head, heart or liver.
Lately, because the cheap guns are no longer being produced the bad guys have taken to getting their girlfriends to buy them higher dollar,larger caliber pistols and since the .40 S&W and .45 acp are the popular choices for police that is the trend the crooks are following.
Consequently the shootings are beginning to involve a large jump in fatalities.
Shotguns are beginning to be used much more frequently too and the results are as expected, messy and fatal.

All I can say about this is maybe the C.D.O.J., (California Department of Justice), and the do gooders would have been better off to leave the cheap gun makers alone.
That save the world attitude of theirs is getting more and more people killed in the real world,,,,,

[Old Fuff]

Yes, we run checks through NCIC on all guns taken to the property room out of arrests. Some of them are coming back stolen, but a lot of them were not.

Interesting... What seems to be the source or sources for these other ones? Strawbuying, illegally imorted from out-of-state, or what?

[El Tejon]

Baby mama.

[slicknickns]

My dad is a criminal defense attorney, who has received several guns to his collection from clients. Probably the best and at least my favorite is a Sig P226. An older one, it has to be 10-15 years old. He got it from a client who got rolled with several pounds of c-4. The client recently got arrested for having 1,000 machine guns and a band of men that he was planning to use to invade Cuba and overthrow Castro. Back to the p226, his came with several original 15 round magazines. He also has one 20 round magazine that my uncle gave him (who was an Orange County Sheriff). The Sig is awesome though, beautiful handgun.

[cookekdjr]

Baby mama.

"No, not that baby mama. My other baby mama is the one who buys my guns. "
Not that I've ever heard anything remotely like that in an interview of a cooperating witness....this week. :rolleyes:

[soutex50]

Something you might find interesting, or at least I did, several cases I've worked on in which a recovered stolen is used, the original owners, when they find out its been used to shoot someone or murder, they don't want it back. I've had several people sign destruction orders.

[FSCJedi]

So what happens to all these confiscated handguns? I think I've heard (my memory is fuzzy) that after a certain period of time, the officers have the opportunity to purchase them. Is this incorrect? I'm curious because I'm thinking of trying to get a job with the BATF&E after my 5 year enlistment is up.

[Frog48]

We all heard reports and saw tv broadcasts of New Orleans gun shops being looted in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina. I'd imagine that the gangs and/or individuals that looted these firearms subsequently became street-level arms dealers in NOLA, and possibly even exporting to other areas of the country.

Have these guns begun showing up as evidence in shootings?

[Zundfolge]

Yes, we run checks through NCIC on all guns taken to the property room out of arrests. Some of them are coming back stolen, but a lot of them were not
.

Interesting... What seems to be the source or sources for these other ones? Strawbuying, illegally imorted from out-of-state, or what?

Not all stolen guns get reported (I seem to recall reading that a large percentage of stolen guns never make it into NICS because they either go unreported, or the victims don't know the serial numbers ... I don't have the serial numbers of most of my guns memorized).

Lots of people buy guns when they are legally able to do so, and then sell them down the road for rock or whatever when they slip into drug addiction and start hanging with bad people.

I almost sold a gun to a convicted felon once ... was a guy I worked with. He asked me if I had any extra guns because he was thinking of getting one for the house ... I had a pistol I considered selling to him when I flippantly asked him if he had any felonies ... he said he did (but since it was a non-violent felony he figured it didn't count). I told him its a good thing he didn't try to buy a gun from a gun shop or he'd have been in trouble when they did the background check. I found out years later that he'd gotten into the drugs again and had gone downhill. He was a decent fellow when I worked with him but he turned into street trash. Now he has some violent felony convictions and last I heard was sitting in jail after he robbed someone.

(no, I didn't sell him the gun)

[Quinch]

Not all stolen guns get reported (I seem to recall reading that a large percentage of stolen guns never make it into NICS because they either go unreported, or the victims don't know the serial numbers ... I don't have the serial numbers of most of my guns memorized).


I print out a simple word document listing make, model, serial #, place of puchase, general condition, # of mags, accessories, and whatever else I can think of whenever I buy another gun.

Then it goes in the folder, that goes in the safe. Easy to do!
I'm assuming of course, everyone here has a computer.;)

[BluesBear]

I print out a simple word document I do that as well.
I also have a spreadsheet showing make, model, barrel length, price, value, date bought etc.
I also have photos of each gun showing condition and any identifying characteristics.
I am just as worried about fire or disaster as I am about theft.

All of this is stored on floppy disk and CD-ROM and I have several copies in several places. Once or twice a year I send an updated set to my brother and a friend.

I figure new photos every six months gives me a good reason to fluff and buff and fire up the camera. And it would satisfy the insurance companies that everything was as it should be.
Like I said, I'm just as worried about damage as theft.



I see the trend in scumbag armament hasn't really changed much in the aloist 20 years since I wore a badge. Back then is was cheap revolvers and old pocket autos.

I recall pulling a Colt Model M .32acp out of a guys pocket one night.
And I got a Browning Pocket 25 from a prowler in my next door neighbors front yard.
There were a lot of WWII vintage cheap .25 & .32 bringbacks floating around at bargain basement prices back then.
If I found someone with a Colt, S&W or Ruger revolver chances are it had been stolen.

I did see a nice Colt National Match get confiscated after the guy beat the snot out of his wife. But that's a different sort of crime/criminal.

[Coronach]

Stolen vs "illegally purchased" vs...

As a patrol officer, I have no idea how the arrestees came into possession of the gun. All I know is that NCIC says it is not stolen. (And we try not to ask questions that we know will make the detectives angry with us...that whole Miranda thing. They're so touchy.) That leaves:

Stolen, but unreported

Straw purchases, aka "Baby's Mama"

Quasi-legally purchased (meaning, purchased from a private individual and in every way a legal transaction, except for that whole "felon in possession of a firearm" thing)

Legally purchased (Hey, it happens)

Gun-running

The very real downside of freedom to purchase firearms more-or-less unregulated is that bad guys can come by weapons on the grey market, as opposed to merely the black market, and the poh-leece will have no idea how they got the weapon in question.

Of course, my personal opinion (and probably the opinion of most people here) is that even if you managed to regulate that away, the black market would just take up the slack. End result: bad guys with guns (still), good guys drowning in red tape.

Mike

[pete f]

I was in the MPLS property room one time, actually a fairly secure warehouse, accompaning a Cop who was showing me some of my property that had been seized when they seized some crack heads truck.

I was amazed at the number of guns, almost all junk, sitting on racks, but there was some good stuff there. I saw a few nice shotguns, engraved etc, He showed me one Diana grade superposed that had 14 inch barrels on it.

The pistol racks were a lot of junk, pot metal guns, etc, with some glocks, some colts, some Smiths, and a few other quality guns, but 90 % were junk. Only saw one really really nice pistol and that was an engraved 29 S&W. He said then chief of police was fighting with the owners over that gun, he said they would not release as they were sure it was used in a felony, but owners said it was theirs and law said it had to be returned.

[HMMurdock]

About two years ago someone had the balls to kick in my garage back door, smash the door into my house, rummage through my house and closets to find my arsenal (if you knew me you know why I say that takes balls).

I didn't have a gun safe at the time, hoping to save up for one and use my HOUSE as concealment-- silly me.

They got a tricked out Arsenal SA98 (AK47) with a 75rd drum, a 37mm "flare" launcher, Glock 21 .45, and an old 1950's Springfield 1911-A1 .45.

Ballsy bastards. Ya know, I'm all about arming America, but that's not what I had in mind...

As a side note, there was an Armalite AR-10 .308, a Savage 10 .308 in a McMillan Stock, and a few other very, very nice pieces and they passed them right up. Obviously they didn't know much about firearms... or had no interest in high dollar distance weapons... And I only had gotten around to copying the serial numbers on about half of em. Damn the luck. 2 years and none of them have been found (yet).

TRL

[.45&TKD]

engraved 29 S&W. He said then chief of police was fighting with the owners over that gun

I bet he was! It was probably earmarked for his private collection.

[blackpanther]

Not all cops are honest.I know an ex cop from Black Mountain,NC.They made a stop and the man bailed out and they were chasing him thru the woods but never caught him.The man had dropped a large grocery bag full of money.He still got upset talkling about it because his young pardner would not go along with keeping it.It must be tempting after all it was just drug money.

Ed