[HMMurdock]

Perhaps and old and over-used topic, but you guys are the best collective firearm authority I have found so I can't resist:

I am looking to move to Alaska in a couple of years and I am an avid outdoorsman. I've got famously awful luck, so I want to prepare for my future encounter with a Grizzly Bear. It will most likely happen when I'm out hunting (I dunno what... let us say Moose or Dall Sheep).

The Alaskan state hunting website (I have temporarily forgotten the link) says as long as you're good with anything in .308 or higher youre fine, and you don't need the big magnum rounds like many assume you do for Alaska...

Now, I don't plan on hunting the grizzly, but when I accidentally step in his back yard what is the minimum rifle caliber I should have to defend myself? I'm a damn good shot but I have to factor in how my aim might slightly pull to the left when I'm CRAPPING MY PANTS and whatnot. :what:

Would you feel fine with a semi-auto or bolt-action .308 with something like Extreme Shock's high velocity hunting rounds in the wilds of Alaska? How about .30-06?

Defense is one thing, but what if I got a wild hair up my @$$ and I wanted to hunt them. What rifle caliber would you suggest then?

For sake of conversation, let us assume no shotguns or big frikkin' revolvers will be available.... Thanks.

TRL

[Taurus 617 CCW]

I have been in Central Alaska doing summer work for about four months now. I have been into Denali National park several times and I can say with confidence that the moose are more of a threat than the bears ever will be. I have never had an encounter with a bear out here that turned out poorly. Of course I can't carry in the park but I do hike outside the park boundary. As far as a good defense gun goes I would suggest carrying a sidearm, preferrably a revolver. Choose a caliber that is powerful enough but still "shootable" for you. It wouldn't make sense for you to have a .454 Casull if you can't control it. I have a Smith and Wesson 629 with a 6" bbl and I carry Federal Cast Core 300 Grainers in it. I don't feel underpowered the least bit with it. Good luck in your search and feel free to ask any more questions if you have them. For hunting purposes I have concluded that the .300 WSM is a great caliber for economical shooting, bullet selection, accuracy, and power.

[Cosmoline]

As far as hunting, the rifle you choose depends on the kind of bear you're after and wear you're going. For barren ground griz you'll probably want something with more range than hunting brownies in dense cover. A .375 H&H is one possibility, though more people in these parts favor the .338 Win Mag. A beat up Model 77 or similar no-frills bolt action in .338 Win mag is probably the most popular Alaskan moose and bear rifle. Only the touristas spend tons of $$ on a rifle that *WILL* get banged up.

As far as bear defense, don't worry that much about it. Keep your ears and eyes open. Leave the stupid bells at home. Watch for sign and be humble. If you carry a firearm make sure it's something you can deploy and fire accurately VERY quickly in one smooth motion. A Marlin 1895 in a backpack scabbard or a bolt action cocked & locked on a quick release belly sling are options. For handguns a double action .357 or .44 Magnum loaded with heavy hardcast are about as big as I would carry. Mostly I boldly run away at the first sign of trouble. These dips who muscle in next to feeding brownies for the sake of some salmon are asking to be Treadwells. If you really want fish that bad, charter a meat boat out of Seward or Homer and you can come back with hundreds of pounds of prime fish for a day's work with no bear troubles.

[JesseJames]

Hmm.
I'd carry a lever action guide-gun (cut down) chambered in the .45-70. Perfect for when it's fast and furious.
Aim for the neck or head to remove all doubts. It would be a good idea to research the anatomy of a grizzly as well. Where the spine is, heart, etc..

I've read that in Alaska, crows or ravens tend to call when there is a bear in the vicinity.
Cagey and hungry bears will stalk you.

[jeepmor]

And he has a .450 Marlin guide gun and a .338 winmag. He has smaller rifles for coyotes, deer and such, but uses these when he goes into the outback on a float plane and only takes one gun. Both are in stainless formats so he does not need to carry gun oil and such to prevent rust.

He lives in Ketchikan, something like 160" of rain a year, so stainless is a good investment in that regard. Particularly when your accommodations, kitchen and hunting equipment are all packed in on your back.

Him and Dad stated that the gunfire can attract the bears since they are smart enough to associate it with the potential free meal. He stated packing moose out in the middle of the night back to camp meant 100 lbs of meat on his back and a rifle carried in the ready position for something like 8 or 10 miles.

BTW, he also stated Moose meat is the best game meat he's ever tasted. And in his younger days, he would bring anything home. I recall stories of raccoon a few times.

jeepmor

[warmrain]

For me it's a S&W 629 5" on OWB and Garrett (http://www.garrettcartridges.com/44mag.asp) loads. In the camp it a mossberg 590 at slugs. Somewhere in between it's a .45-70

This was before the S&W 500 was a reality and there may be reasonable options there too. And Ruger has some nice carries in 454 and Ruger 480.

[Cosmoline]

I'd strongly suggest a full size non-ported 1895 Marlin or modern Winchester 1886 if you're going with heavy .45-70's. The short models are too loud and pushy. The ported ones are loud to the point of being dangerous. Recoil with Buf Bores and Hammerheads is very abusive and makes followup shots difficult in the time frame you're looking at. A full size 1895 or Win '86 will absorb more recoil and help you keep control.

If you go with a shotgun use hardcast slugs, not soft Foster style. Brennekes are good. Make sure you have rifle sights on the shotgun and sight them in.

The super big bore revolvers such as SRH .454's and S&W X-frames are really cool for hunting if you can take the recoil, but for bear defense I'm not sold on them at all. They carry like bricks and are slow in the hand. You'd be better off with a .308 carbine if you want something that will tote well in the back country.

[warmrain]

And for 45-70 I would suggest looking at http://www.garrettcartridges.com/products.asp for their offerings.

[HMMurdock]

Thanks for the tips. I've said it before and I'll say it again: I love you guys. I'm grateful for your experiences.

--So does anything think it would be suicidal to go into Alaska with a semi-auto .308 with the finest, heavy duty high velocity hunting rounds money can buy?

I have a (rust-proof) Remington 870 Marine Magnum 12 gauge, but I should get sights on it (thats a good idea). I'll also have a nickel-plated Colt 4" Python .357 Magnum... 6 well placed high velocity rounds of that in a grizz or moose's throat is better than nothing...

My girlfriend is from Alaska (which is why I may be going there) and she said the same thing about Moose-- they're more dangerous than a Grizz.

Again, thanks for the tips and keep e'm comin'!

TRL

[warmrain]

Sell me the python and get yourself a 629 or Ruger 44. I'm only half kidding (I love the Python and have been looking for one and I think you need more).

A long gun is a good camp gun in addition to a side arm. If you get something on top of you or the tent of you are surprised there will be no time to swing a long arm IMHO.

Though I think I'm with the rest of the group, besides something like a 629, a 18 or 20" marine type 12 ga. and/or a 45-70 carbine.

[Cosmoline]

Alaska will scratch your firearms in a thousand ways :D I wouldn't venture into the wilds with a Python unless it was pretty beat up already.

The moose are dangerous but you really can't shoot them in DLP unless they're actually stomping you into the ground. Just run away and they'll stop chasing you. Most of the time. It's part of the fun living here :neener: Alces alces gigas are considerably larger and sometimes meaner than their Canadian and Maine counterparts, so I give them a berth. I've been charged many times as has everybody up here. But they're usually not too serious. The most intense episode was getting chased by an enraged bull during rut after some off-leash dogs mad him very angry. I had to dive into a mess of devil's club to escape.

Here's an example of what NOT to do--try to get by an enraged cow so you can get to class on time. I believe this one was fatal:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVaJUbsEhic

Most of the time they just stand there and chew, giving you the hairy eyeball. VERY different from skittish deer. They also seem to know the difference between the parks and the hunting areas.

[Rinspeed]

Wow finally a thread with very good advice all around. Especially checking out http://www.garrettcartridges.com/products.asp I wouldn't feel unsafe at all with a .44 mag Redhawk stuffed with some Garrett 310 Gr. Hammerhead ammo. The Marlin guide guns in .45-70 would be my first choice when a long gun would be feasible.

I'll also have a nickel-plated Colt 4" Python .357 Magnum... 6 well placed high velocity rounds of that in a grizz or moose's throat is better than nothing...

Just my opinion but if I was thinking of trying to stop a pissed off grizzly with a .357 I would save that sixth round for myself :)

[warmrain]

Rinspeed,

You just need to realize that the closer the bear gets the easier it is to hit... :uhoh:

That eye shot would be a good way to use the last round... Do you feel lucky... :eek:

[carnaby]

Just how deaf will you be if you have to let loose with the .454, .480 or .500 in the woods at a Griz? Better than being bear food, but still sucks, no? I wear muffs when I hunt, and plan on some Walker Game Ears when I can afford 'em.

[ahooga]

A grizzly? Sure, you can kill him with a .357 magnum. Just make sure you hit him in the brain. Good luck holding your hand steady when you realize a 1200lb brown bear has decided to crush your skull. Remember: nothing you do is going to change a bear's mind once he's decided to kill you. You have to render his body useless to him. You want something that, in the event your shot misses his nervous system, is going to send tremendous shock waves through his body, buying you time to get off your second shot. A 450 Marlin lever-action guide gun will do the job. It's short enough not to tangle in brush, rides comfortably in the crook of your arm, and you never have to reach for it because it's already in your hands. I find revolvers can get pretty uncomfortable after a few hours of rubbing and bouncing off your hip, leg and ass. If a revolver is your preference, though, carry a 6" bbl .44 magnum--and aim for his head.

[warmrain]

Aim for his head... and make sure you get off a good shot. May be best to go for the area of the eyes or snout. If you get off a wild head shot... well, there are lots of reports of glancing blows that have no effect at all. Hey, it even happens with a human skull...

I like the marlin idea... That's my next bear/trail gun. For now the camp gun is a Mossy 590 with slugs and the trail gun a 629 loaded with these:

http://www.garrettcartridges.com/44mag.asp

[mikewalker]

For my last 4 trips into the Brooks Range (ANWR) I carried one of my two Marlin 1895's loaded with Buffalo Bores 430gr loads..can you say exploding rocks?

Seriously though I place alot of faith in it. Having said that I'd like to point out that all 5 Grizzlys, including one that looked as long, damn near, as the Cesna that flew me in RAN AWAY or slowly angled off and away when they saw me. The exception was a sow with 2 cubs (pint and half pint) She put on a squirrel digging seminar not more than 125 yards away that lasted for 30 mins before wandering away...never saw-smelled me, boy did that make that big a** camera worth the tote!!

If you will be in heavy brush I vote lever gun (keep it simple) in 45-70 457mag 450marlin.....Spray works too, sometimes better...

Out on the tundra visibility is limited only by terrain they'll probably avoid you...save that one bear in ?? who will come after you...my 3rd trip came with news of a couple from Anchorage rafting the Hulahula being eaten just before I got there and another customer mauled near the haul road. 2 days from his hikes end...

[Cosmoline]

Whatever you bring, make sure you carry it with a round chambered and make sure you can deploy it VERY fast. When attacks happen they happen really fast. For example, in last year's Huffman killings in ANWR the griz attacked the couple in their tent with such speed and ferocity Mr. Huffman only had time to cycle the action on his levergun half way. The griz had torn him up before he could chamber the round. They found the rifle next to his partially eaten remains. I've seen the photos of what the bear did to him, and they're pretty stark.

This is why I emphasize that the size of the firearm matters much less than your speed with it. The bigger the iron, the more likely it is to get stowed or even left at home. A small .357 revolver with 200 grain hardcasts can stay with you always, even if you leave your rifle against a tree or sling it over your back.

[dragongoddess]

You mean you cannot carry a firearm in a Park where you are a walking snack? Seems strange to me.

[SHOOT1SAM]

HMMurdock,

Since you seem to be leaning toward a semi-automatic rifle, I'll suggest you think about a Remington 7400 in .35 Whelen (they were also available in the pump-action 7600). Loaded with 250 gr. bullets, it would be a harder hitting, more effective round than the .308 Win. You'd have to find one used, but it shouldn't be too difficult.

Sam

[HMMurdock]

You guys are the best. Thanks for the advice! I'll update you if I get anything soon...

TRL

[CSA 357]

get you a 338 magnum you can hunt all the smaller big game and still stop a bear if need be, but i would go with a bolt action myself, *csa*

[JShirley]

I'm planning on vacationing in Alaska in '08. I plan on taking my 18" barreled Mossberg 500 GR, loaded with Brennekes for defense.

If I ever deliberately hunt brown or griz, I plan on using my Territorial Gunsmiths .35 Whelen.

John

[Mantis]

Aim for his head... and make sure you get off a good shot. May be best to go for the area of the eyes or snout. If you get off a wild head shot... well, there are lots of reports of glancing blows that have no effect at all.

+1. Even a 30/06 from short range will not penetrate a bear's skull if the shot is not right on.

[rifleman93]

.444, .450 Marlins BFRs or .454 Casuall or .475 Linebaugh in FA

[Cosmoline]

Mantis--that's an old myth. It's based on experiences where the hunter shoots the top of the bear's head, where the big lump is. It doesn't kill the animal so they assume the bullet was deflected. In reality that's not brain or skull, but a huge mass of jaw muscles. A .30-06 will NOT deflect off a bear's skull. But you do need to aim lower than you may think to hit paydirt.

[Gunz]

I am also quite fascinated with this thread, since I plan on going to ALaska in the spring of 2007.
Per the comments made so far, it seems I would be checking in my 45-70 stainless Guide Gun, Mossberg 590 12 gauge, and a 3-in 629 (for packability).
THe ammo selection is what I am also glad to hear discussed.
Hardcast seems to be the requirement. I can get the 300 Federal Cast Core for the 44 (I think the Garrett would be harder on me than I can handle), and the same for the 12 gauge. What grain weight in the 45-70 would be appropriate? Do they make the 405gr in hardcast for the 45-70?
I like the Ruger 454 Alaskan, too. Any real Alaskans have any testimony to share of that little gun in a defensive role?
I think the 2.5inch S&W 500 or 460 survival kits are plain goofy looking.

[DavidAk311]

No bears are as tough, mean, and bullet proof as internet bears....use whatever weapon you are comfortable with and can shoot with some skill...

They aren't lurking behind every tree, waiting to ambush a guy....bullets don't bounce off their heads...they don't come running at the sound of a gun shot...and one needn't let fear of them spoil his fun in the woods.....

[crunker]

An axe, a mace, or similar bladed weapon. Bearspray may work, but I don't want to trust my life with something that's little more than a chili powder solution.

For firearms, 10mm loaded with the most powerful cartridge available, or .44 revolver.

[trotter@ku.edu]

What about hunting grizzlies?

1. Do you need a scoped rifle?
2. Would a Short M-1A work (.308 Winchester)
3. Scope Power?
Thanks

[BIGR]

Cosmoline, I guess you stay in pretty good shape, running away from those moose. I bet that gets your heart pumping.
Now back on the subject, this is some good info on this. In the future I want to go to Alaska and visit some of the areas like Denali. If I had the choice to just go on one more big trip before I die, it would be to travel to Alaska. I've been out west in bear country and took the .44 mag super redhawk loaded with the Federal 300 GR. cast bullets. I had the Glock along in the truck mainly for the two legged critters, but never had to display either one.