A Stupid Question - .45LC / .45-70


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Glock_10mm
August 8, 2006, 06:08 PM
Ok this may be a stupid question but I am looking for a all around load for a derringer and was wondering can a .45lc (colt) be fired in a .45-70? If not is the reverse true?

Also I have heard some reports about the .454 casul, the .460vxr / .460 S&W Mag also chambering... is this true? What about .45 schofield, or .44-40?

I am basiclly looking for an all around high power caliber to put in the lower chamber of the derringer (custom made) and like the .45lc/.410bore but also want options to handle the .454 or .45-70, etc if possible. What should I have the cun chambered in to give it the most possible options in this realm. Any help in this area would be appreciated.

PS - for all of you that read the survival gun I am making, this is going to be the backup in .357max upper / .45 ??? lower?

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Punkermonkey
August 8, 2006, 06:15 PM
You may find the .45-70 in that small of a package to be quite unmanageable. Below is a .45-70 next to a .45acp for comparison.

http://www.theothersideofkim.com/images/uploads/45ACP_x_45-70.jpg

If you fire a Derringer chambered in .45-70 at an assailant, there is no doubt that both of you are going to the hospital. I would suggest something more manageable like .45acp or .357mag.

mete
August 8, 2006, 06:19 PM
One problem is bore diameter. The 45-70 is .458" and the 45acp and 45Colt are .451" I have an insert to fore a 45acp in my 45-70 but the accuracy is reaaly poor because the 45acp bullet is too small.

ArmedBear
August 8, 2006, 06:21 PM
.45 LC is compatible with .454 Casull, AFAIK, like .44 Special/.44 Magnum and .38/.357.

.45-70 is a completely different animal with slightly different dimensions all around, not just length.

Justin
August 8, 2006, 06:22 PM
(Unsolicited Advice)

Unless it's for Cowboy Action Shooting or somesuch, I would strongly recommend that you avoid a derringer.

If you're looking for a deep concealment pistol, you'd be far better off with one made by Kahr, Keltec, Rohrbaugh, or one of the lightweight Smith and Wesson J-Frame revolvers.

(/Unsolicited Advice)

Wiley
August 8, 2006, 06:32 PM
Second what Justin said. But if you are determined you might look at .44-40.
Or, one of the current magnum pistol cartriges: 41, 44, etc.

Check bullet dia. and oal (over all length).

roscoe
August 8, 2006, 07:34 PM
If you chamber it in .460 you could also fire .45 LC and .454. But firing anything other than .45 cowboy loads in a derringer would probably ruin your day, if not life. There are some pretty potent .45 LC loads, if you stick to that chambering. In a rifle, they can match the old 45-70 loads of yore and exceed .44 magnum.

Dionysusigma
August 8, 2006, 08:17 PM
What I'd like (and would be fairly possible, I think) is a single-shot, 18.5" bbl O/U rifle that could take .22 LR in the top barrel and .410, .460 S&W, .454 Cassull, .45 LC, and .45 Schofield in the other.

Better yet, a simple box-fed autoloading .22 for the upper. Say, a Marlin 795 that feeds from the side a la Sten or FG-42, but mirror-image the design so it ejects straight up. Put a notch in the (folding) charging handle to serve as the rear sight for the .22, and another flip-up adjustable rear for the other barrel. Below that, the .410-.460-.454-.45 barrel; still a break-open configuration (though more like an M203). 20" barrel for the .22, 18.5" barrel for the other, with the shotgun/.45 receiver (and seperate trigger) permanently mounted to the rest of the gun.

If I could only have one gun, that'd be as versatile as I could imagine. :D

NukemJim
August 8, 2006, 10:20 PM
If you fire a Derringer chambered in .45-70 at an assailant, there is no doubt that both of you are going to the hospital.

I have fired a .45-70 Derringer and no I did not go to the hospital. ( Well not until the next day I work at a hospital :) )

Having said that I would NOT fire another .45-70 from a Derringer againg unless I was being paid a lot of money(at least $1000.00 dollars ). My hand stopped hurting after 3 weeks.

NukemJim

Preacherman
August 8, 2006, 10:24 PM
I know one gentleman who solved this problem by hand-loading his .45 Colt rounds with bullets sized to .458". These fitted fine in the bore of his .45-70. However, he did experience severe pressure problems from time to time, as the .45 Colt rounds were a lot shorter than the .45-70 ones, and this meant that the jump between cartridge case and rifling (and the slight hesitation on entering the rifling) allowed pressure to build in the chamber. He used only fairly light loads as a result, and his cases still sometimes showed pressure problems.

Note that I am not recommending this as a solution, and I think it might be dangerous in some weapons. It's just what one guy did.

Cosmoline
August 8, 2006, 10:29 PM
It sounds like a good way to ruin a good .45-70 chamber with no real benefit. It's not like .45 Colt is cheaper than .45-70 these days.

CSA 357
August 8, 2006, 10:40 PM
trade it for somthing you can use,*csa*:)

Glock_10mm
August 8, 2006, 11:44 PM
Dionysusigma - I am creading that one shot o/u gun you wanted that was in my last post ".357 mag for survival". I have decided to alter an o/u 12ga shotgun, cut to 18" go 357max (also accepts 357mag/38spl) up top via a semi permanent bore adapter (loctite in and modify the ejector), and keep it over the 12ga lower. You should check out that discussion. I got the gun and am shopping for a maker for the bore adapter. I'll let you know how it turns out.

As for .45-70 I've seen derringers chambered for this (american derringer). I'm sure its not pleasent to shoot but I want alot of options. This is not my conceal gun, my G29 is, this is a long story gun but the top chamber will be custom bored for .357max(.357mag/.38spl) and the lower something in .45. If the .45lc/.410 accepts the .454 casul thats probably good enough for me. I know the .45lc can be loaded to the power levels of the 454 with less pressure so that may be more the route I take, but I want some options.

Also Wiley, doesnt the .44-40 chamber in the .45lc?

Wiley
August 9, 2006, 08:31 AM
No, the 44-40 (more properly 44WCF [Winchester Central Fire]) was originaly a rifle cartrige and has a slightly bottle neck case. The 45 Colt, a revolver cartrige, has a straight case. I think the 45 Colt oal is longer than 44WCF.

Of the two the 45 Colt is probably a slightly better cartrige. As a rifle cartrige the 44WCF pretty much sucked. BTW the 40 in 44-40 indicates 40 grains of black powder. Both cartriges were developed in the mid to late 1800's

Again, were I doing it, I would design/build for modern magnum pistol cartriges. For some concepts you might want to check out the LaMatt. Here is one site http://www.wildmans-shop.com/GUNS.htm. Look at item G07. Was popular with Confederate officers during the 'recent unpleasntness'.

ksnecktieman
August 9, 2006, 08:42 AM
It sounds to me like you are looking for a "Medusa" revolver. Does anyone have a link to a description for it? If I remember correctly it would chamber and fire ??? 11 ??? different cartridges, from .22 to .410

Glock_10mm
August 9, 2006, 09:17 AM
The H&R Medusa 47 fires over 20 (offically - its more like 40 though if you dont count accuracy), different calibers. However they are all in the 9mm/.38/.357 range. The furthest outside the range that the gun can accept/hold (due to the ingenious cartridge webbing design) is the .32acp, though you would only want this in a very close range, no other choice scenario.

Much like the converted shotgun I'm building, I'm set on my 2 shot o/u derringer design, and not looking for a revolver, etc for this purpose.

On a side note though, I have been trying to locate a medusa though so if any of you have one for sale please PM me. I passed one up on GB about a year ago and I have regretted it since.

I think I am leaning towards the .45lc now. The .45-70 seems to be a little too much power, and with .454 and .410 bore that should leave me a few different options. Also, I have seen moonclips to hold 45acp in a .45lc revolver before, is there any way to do this for the derringer, or better yet a way to design the derringer to directly accept and hold the 45acp as well without a clip?

pete f
August 9, 2006, 05:26 PM
If you are building it just to say "look what I got!!" then more power to you, If you are building it thinking you have found the ultimate defensive hand gun, keep looking.


Derringers are slow to reload, hard to hold, not that much more concealable than a 40 Kahr when you get to the cartridge size you are looking at, and really really hard to shoot at accurately. I know I have missed hitting a 5 gallon bucket at ten feet with the .38 that i got in package deal because the trigger was about 19 pounds and the grip squirted around in my hand like a fish.

I can see no real reason to have one, other than bragging rights.

Glock_10mm
August 9, 2006, 06:56 PM
I appreciate the input but, as my uncle would put it:

I am creating "an ingenious solution to a problem that doesnt exsist".

I have run through a few possible scenarios where it may actually be the most practical of choices given my travel, line of work, and remote destinations (the derringer and the shotgun, not just the derringer alone), but if the sky starts burning or blood runs from the rivers, I will be grabbing either an AR10, HKG3 or other viable higher caliber semi auto.

The derringer is more of a backup to the shotgun than a primary weapon and I have considered just getting a revolver chambered in .357max, but I'm stuck on the o/u thing for now.

One last thing: I was doing some reading and the .460 S&W Mag is probably the way to go, having .454 casul, .45lc, and .410bore (and .45 schofield). Is this correct? I've read that the reverse is not true but I would let the .460 go and just settle for .454/.45lc if it will greatly damage the accuracy of the .454 or .45lc? any experience is welcome.

pete f
August 9, 2006, 10:13 PM
I ask you if you have shot a .460 S&W in a 5 pound handgun?


I then ask you if you have shot one in a 20 Oz gun?

Its your money, but a derringer is never a substitute for a shotgun.

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