[MyRoad]

There's been a lot of talk about scout rifles, ranging from the original "as defined" down to any rifle with a forward mounted scope being referred to as a Scout Rifle (like the new Ruger Frontier).

I think that the concept can evolve, or at least have variations. I follow the general idea of a scout rifle being a light weight, compact, larger caliber (ideally .308) rifle, with a bolt action, detachable magazine, forward mounted scope, and iron sights. My twist on it would be that I'd like to have "see through" scope mounts, so that I could use either the scope or the iron sights at any time.

So far, I haven't found a gun that I consider 80% there, that would need only minor alterations.

The guns I've played with are two I had on hand, an M44 and a Mini-14. Both fall short on several fronts, but have been fun to mess with, and the results are functional and useful, within their respective limitations.

I'd like to see pics of anyone else's ventures into Scout-Style rifles, hear about your experiences and what your perfect back woods gun ("scout" or not) would be.

http://www.xlr8nrg.com/images2/2scouts.jpg

[steelhead]

Copycat:D

http://www.hunt101.com/img/355297.jpg

[thereisnospoon]

Here ya go...


Don't have pics yet, but I recently scouted an Ishapore 2A1

[MyRoad]

Just curious if either of you have hunted with your 'scouts'?

I actually had a trigger job done to mine, brought it from about 9lbs. down to 5lbs., and made it crisper (not really "crisp", but crisper). There are other mods I could do to the M44, but it's inherent limitations have made me think to start over on another platform.

[steelhead]

2 mulies. Both were taken with some loads I rolled using Hornady 150gr SST's. 1 was DRT, the other I had to follow the trail.

[Clipper]

...And forward-scoped rifles are as ugly as Glock pistols...

[Brother in Arms]

I guess I have been living in a cave for most of my life but what is the actual intended purpose of the "scout rifle" I know that there is some debate as to what a scout rifle actually is.

I understand mounting a scope foward of the action to facilitate reloading with stripper clips but couldn't this also be achieved by a side mount scope like those found on the M1 garand? Or is there some benefit to having a long eye relief scope?

What is the goal of these rifles?

Thanks
Brother in Arms

[MyRoad]

I think that the primary benefit of the scope position is that with a low-powered scope it is very easy to keep both eyes open and target acquisition is faster. The scope is further away so it's not obstructing your general field of view, and with both eyes open and relaxed you have a better sense of your surroundings. Some people prefer that persepctive. It's also easier to access the port to load and to clean the gun. This months "Shooting Times" has a review of the Ruger Frontier, and the auther does a good job of describing the advantages, and then ends by pronouncing that once you get used to a scout rifle, "you'll never go back".

[Nematocyst]

Just to provide a bit of background for MyRoad's interesting new thread...

There are several THR threads on the scout rifle concept. Here is a recent one. (http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=196991)

(Note: I'm NOT suggesting that this one shouldn't be pursued. For me, threads run their course of evolution, and new ones on the same topic deserve to pop up now and again. I will follow this one with interest.)

The thread I linked above includes several links to good web pages on the scout rifle concept, including at least one page to info about the Steyr, and at least one (I think) to something by Jeff Cooper (who allegedly formalized the concept of "scout rifle". You'll find that the debate in that thread gets fairly testy at times; some are a bit more ... um, protective of the concept of "scout rifle" - insisting that it only applies to a very specific type of rifle that meet very specific criteria - where as others appear to be cool with specifying it more broadly. I expect to read similar debates in this thread over time although I hope this one doesn't get bogged down in endless debate about what is right. (IMO, we should be discussing here what works well for each individual, not necessarily debating whether this person or that person would want to call it a "scout".)

MyRoad and I, along with some others, started discussing this issue a bit in a thread that I started on the Ruger Frontier Rifle (http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=214608), which spilled out of one of MyRoad's other threads on short-barreled .308's (http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=213657).

OK, hope that provides some useful background so that we don't have to recover too much ground in this thread, but forge new ground.

Now, let the ideas roll. ;)

Nem

[Nematocyst]

From "The Steyr Scout Rifle Page" (http://www.steyrscout.org/project.htm) (again, to clarify, not stimulate debate about what is and is not a scout rifle):

A Few Words on the Scout Rifle Concept

Since one must take care with one's speech it is appropriate that we address the issue of just what a "scout rifle" really is.

By the definition of the Scout Rifle Conferences held under the auspices of Jeff Cooper the scout rifle has been defined as a general purpose rifle suitable for taking targets of up to 400 kg (880 pounds) at ranges to the limit of the shooters visibility (nominally 300 meters) that meets the following criteria:

Weight-sighted and slung: 3 kilograms (6.6 lb). This has been set as the ideal weight but the maximum has been stated as being 3.5 kg (7.7 pounds ).
Length: 1 meter (39 inches)
Nominal barrel length: .48 meter (19 inches)
Sighting system: Typically a forward and low mounted (ahead of the action opening) long eye relief telescope of between 2x and 3x. Reserve iron sights desirable but not necessary. Iron sights of the ghost ring type, without a scope, also qualify, as does a low powered conventional position scope.
Action: Magazine fed bolt action. Detachable box magazine and/or stripper clip charging is desirable but not necessary.
Sling: Fast loop-up type, i.e. Ching or CW style.
Caliber: Nominally .308 Winchester (7.62 x 51 mm). Calibers such as 7 mm - 08 Remington (7 x 51 mm) or .243 Winchester (6 x 51 mm) being considered for frail individuals or where "military" calibers are proscribed.
Built-in bipod: Desirable but not mandatory.
Accuracy: Should be capable of shooting into 2 minutes of angle or less (4") at 200 yards/meters (3 shot groups).

Rifles that do not meet all of these specifications are technically not "scout rifles." Thus rifles of this general design in calibers other than those stated above are not true scout rifles but actually "pseudo-scouts." However, even though Steyr Mannlicher (and now Savage) are making production rifles of this general type (as well as some wild variations) they are under no legal obligation not to call their deviations "scouts" as a marketing tool. Thus, the Steyr .376 Scout also known as (and probably better referred to as the ".376 Dragoon" although the factory dislikes the term) nor the .223 variation are true scout rifles. For that matter neither are the custom made scout-like rifles made up in .30-06, .375 H&H, or what ever caliber. However, there are many parts of the scout design that can be handily used on non-scout rifles.

[MyRoad]

I'm going to take one more stab at this, in an attempt to open it up a bit. I'm not sure what Mr. Cooper's situational intent was for this design, but I know what drew me to it. The idea is of a gun that is light, handy, powerful, accurate, reliable, sturdy, and simple (fewest moving parts). Something that you could have with you for weeks at a time, with maintenance, simplicity, and durability paramount.

The function would be as a thick-woods/brush gun, and alternately, as a sort of back-woods survival gun, capable of hunting and protection, bringing portability, reliability, and larger caliber to the forefront. I am aware that the classic "survival gun" is something like the the Henry .22 (http://henryrepeating.com/survival.cfm), and while 2.5 lbs. has its advantages, the caliber falls short in the bigger picture.

So for me, a Scout Rifle is really more about its general characteristics and versatility, than it is about where the scope is mounted. It may be futile to shift the course of this thread, but I'll give it a shot anyway: I'm interested in any gun you would think optimal for a long back-packing effort where your survival (hunting and protection) might depend on it.

[jeepmor]

To skew off the scout concept a little and address the ease of use for a rifle that may be carried for days on end with little or no cleaning.

If in Alaska or the PNW in a wet fall or winter, I'd choose a format that I like in stainless with a synthetic or laminated stock. I'm just a sucker for the laminated stocks, it's personal preference and probably at the cost of some weight.

But a scout, in my newbie eyes, is simply a carbine or brush rifle with a sufficient caliber to get'r done. Where you put your scope is personal preference in my mind. There are pros and cons to both normal scope placement and the scope out there on the barrel away from the rifles action.

For packing a rifle for many days, I'd outfit it with one of those Butler Creek slings, that neoprene really does a nice job of spreading the weight of the gun on your shoulder. Particularly when you're somewhere that you might be jolting around a bit like in rocky terrain. Feeling that neoprene section stretch a little bit and reduce the impact on my shoulder has been the most noticeable difference in comfort for myself. It's like the sling has shocks on it, I will probably never purchase another leather sling due to this cushy suspension on the Butler Creek slings. Particularly on my .223 HB ruger for varminting. 10lbs is still 10lbs when hiking, but when jolting, that 10lbs does not spike up to uncomfortable levels with that neoprene stretch.

Beyond that, I know nothing of scout rifles, just comfort in transporting them.

jeepmor

[Magnum Wheel Man]

so just as an attempt to follow along... my custom 44 mag lever action Marlin, re-chambered in 50 A.E. with a 10 round tube magazine & with a Cabela's Alaskan Guide zero power extra long eye relief, extra wide field of view scope, & glass bedded wood might "qualify" as a scout rifle ??? it is very powerful, very light weight, highly accurate, & extremely durable & quick to point...:cool:

[JohnKSa]

Does Cooper advocate the forward mounted scope for any other reason than to allow rapid reloading of a box magazine from the top?

I was just musing over the picture of the semi-auto with a forward mounted scope and it made me wonder if we were forgetting the main reason for the forward mounted scope.

[SpookyPistolero]

I believe other main reasons were that it allowed one to maintain a full view of the landscape and that both eyes could be kept open during fire with less strain. These would also be the most important reasons to my mind. It allows for a sort of snap shooting.

[Dave R]

I believe other main reasons were that it allowed one to maintain a full view of the landscape and that both eyes could be kept open during fire with less strain. These would also be the most important reasons to my mind. It allows for a sort of snap shooting.I recently hunted hog with a rifle with a scout scope on it, and I'm a believer. What he says is accurate.

Also, it seems to me like the scope field-of-view almosts acts like a ghost ring. The target seems to center itself in the field of view--which is where the crosshairs intersect. It seems mighty quick to get on target. And with both eyes open, its easier to pick up the target when its moving. Scout scope is a Good Thing.

The other scout rifle specs are all good, too. But the scout scope seems like the heart of the matter.

[Koobuh]

"Life is too short to shoot ugly guns...And forward-scoped rifles are as ugly as Glock pistols..."


I do believe we may need to have words, suh, on both accounts. :fire:

I'll be putting a 4x Simmons pistol scope on my sporterized (not by me) Remington Imperial-contract M91 mosin-nagant in the next few weeks. That rifle has already yielded very promising groups (MOA or better!) with plain old Wolf ammo.

One should never call a firearm that works as excellently as a scout mosin 'ugly'. Beauty in a tool is entirely in how well it accomplishes its set goal- visual aesthetics based on quaint notions of 'rustic beauty' should never be applied to tools.

Edit to say: If ever I hunt ungulates or other game in North America, that M91 will be the rifle I turn to.

Also, MyRoad, how hard was it to get the bayonet attachment off of your M44? And, how much work did you have to do on that ATI stock- any issues at all?

[MyRoad]

MyRoad, how hard was it to get the bayonet attachment off of your M44? And, how much work did you have to do on that ATI stock- any issues at all?
First, let me say that the M44 had already been altered (the bolt was cut and replaced), so the gun was not in, nor ever would be in original condition again. So being in otherwise excellent shape, for $85, it was a good platform to have some fun.

I read a description of sportorizing on SurplusRifle.com (http://www.surplusrifle.com/carbinenagant/oddsandends3/index.asp), and he said that supposedly you can remove the pins and front sight and bayonet lug should tap off rather easily. That was not his experience, he needed to knock them off with a cold chisel. Well, that didn't work for me either. I needed to cut mine off with a Sawzall and then grind what was left down. My first time trying to make a smooth grind on a round surface with a belt grinder... and then there were the pin holes to be filled (had a welder do that).

The ATI stock should be "fitted", in that some parts could be cut down (not sure how I would have gone about that?) to make it fit more evenly -- but I didn't go there. The barrel sort of wedges into the stock without any undo force, so I just dropped it in, tightened the screws, and went no further.

I put three rounds through at 100 yards on my last trip to the range, and got a 2" group, so as far as I'm concerned, it "works", and I'm done with it.

[Clipper]

...I also had a sporterized Remington Mosin, which would shoot 3/4MOA, and I would never have desecrated that fine rifle with a 'scout' uglification! I like Jeff Cooper, but there are times when even he has a colossally bad idea, and this was one of them... :neener:

[Brother in Arms]

Thanks for shedding more light on the purpose of such a rifle. I have read various things about scout rifles here and there but I could never figure out what niche they where supposed to fill. I guess just that of a good all around rifle. I have never fired a scout rifle. I have handled the steyr scout and I was not impressed.

I think the mosin is a good platform as an all around rifle as they are very simple and reliable, though there safety is not particularly easy to operate. The short barreled versions also have a great deal of muzzle blast and flash. They do not posses the characteristics of a fine sporting rifle which is just why I like them.

I have a New england westinghouse that was unfortunately sporterized in the 1950's or 60's the barrel was shortened to about 20 inches and had a 1903 springfield sight added. The old arshin marked rear sight being left in place it was also fitted with a bishop sporting stock that was terribly glass bedded.

I plan on reworking this rifle by restocking it in a richards microfit laminate stock, I already crowned the barrel and did a trigger job as it had a terrible trigger pull. I would also like to add some sort of a rear apeture sight but I dont want to drill and tap the reciever.

Sorry to side track the thread I didnt mean to get so Mosin-sentric

To get back to the point, I think the CZ550 LUX .308 with detachable magazines would be a excellent scout rifle.

Brother in arms

[trstafford]

I have been giving much thought about building a Scout but I must be missing something the manufactures know. The sighting system is absouletely great for snap shooting or running shots at under 200 yards. But everyone wants to use callibers that start shining at 300-500 yards. I was thinking of using a CZ 527 carbine in 7.62x39. I think that this would be a nice 200yd deer rifle with 150gr bullets.

But I really think that Marlin missed their market when the introduced their bolt action several years ago. They have some of the best calibers for deer/elk/bear in deep woods in the .444 Marlin, 35 Remington, 45/70, 450 Marllin. and the .44 Mag would make a great gun where urban sprawl is becoming an issue because of the limited range if a shot is missed. But both .44 and 7.62x39 would be great for young shooters that need cheap ammo to practice.

I just can't understand why they want long range cartridges with a close range sighting system?

[MyRoad]

I just can't understand why they want long range cartridges with a close range sighting system?
I think that the inclusion of larger calibers is an attempt at getting this one gun to serve as wide a spectrum of uses as possible, and the larger caliber simply includes larger game within its potential.

There probably isn't one gun that could do everything well, but we seem to forever being asking ourselves and each other: "If you could only have one gun, what would it be?" I think part of the underlying goal for this gun, is to try and make a gun -- at least for those of us whose needs most likely would not include any 150+ yard shots -- that would be our "one gun".

[dfaugh]

Currently working on one that would qualify...A VZ-24 action, with the barrel shortened and recrowned (not sure how long yet, probably 20") rechambered for 8mm-06 AI. Have all the parts (action, barrel, stock and red dot scope) except the "scout mount" for the scope. Only have about $200 invested, so its kinda an experiment to see how it works out. May use it for a pig hunt at some point, we'll see how well it works out.

[rbernie]

I think part of the underlying goal for this gun, is to try and make a gun -- at least for those of us whose needs most likely would not include any 150+ yard shots -- that would be our "one gun".In my experience, 150 yards is about max for the current crop of 'scout' scopes (2.5x Leupold or 2.75 Burris) when we're talking about hunting medium game.

I have three rifles with 'scout' style scope setups. I know from experience that I can only effectively use them on medium game inside of 150 yards (due to their limited range of magnification). That makes then a dandy solution for, say, seventy five percent of my hunting needs, but certainly not a 'one gun' solution.

To me, a one-gun hunting rifle solution is something along the lines of a 308 with a 21" or 22" barrel and topped with a 2x-7x conventional scope. Such a rifle is capable of being used in the brush as well as in the clear cuts. Conversely, a scout style rifle is (given the current state of the art in scout scopes) a specialized tool for specific environments.

[Nematocyst]

To me, a one-gun hunting rifle solution is something along the lines of a 308 with a 21" or 22" barrel and topped with a 2x-7x conventional scope. Such a rifle is capable of being used in the brush as well as in the clear cuts. Conversely, a scout style rifle is (given the currnt state of the art in scout scopes) a specialized tool for specific environments.rbernie, would you mind offering your thoughts on what those "specific environments" are?

Thanks,

Nem

[rbernie]

rbernie, would you mind offering your thoughts on what those "specific environments" are?The forward mounted scope provides a very small magnified field of view - you cannot make the ocular and objective lens big enough to compensate for the fact that the scope sits so far from your eye as to render your view through it very 'tunnel-like'. Given this, scout scopes have evolved into low-power optics that sit low on the bore and offer excellent instinctive pointing (much like a peep sight, only magnified slightly) in exchange for their small magnified field of view. This makes them work well in close quarters, since the scope doesn't block your unmagnified peripheral vision the way that a traditional scope does. It also makes them NOT work so well when shooting at medium game that's a ways off (since they just don't have the magnification needed to reasonably target the vitals), or when trying to track moving game beyond fifty or seventy five yards - the magnified field of view is so bloody small that it's hard to keep the vitals of the animal centered in the scope.

For me, any kind of hunting or shooting sport that places a premium on dropping relatively good-sized stationary targets within one hundred and fifty yards or on tracking moving targets at close quarters (halitosis distance) is an excellent environment for a scout style optic. I still-hunt in wooded/scrub areas quite a bit where the average sight distance is less than 75 yards, and my scout-style rifles are superb at dealing with hogs and deer in that environment.

Conversely, when I hit the clear-cuts between the scrub patches and see a deer standing one hundred and seventy five yards away, I suddenly find that the scout setup (and/or my shooting capabilities) starts to fail me. Regardless of rifle chambering or bullet trajectory, I simply cannot shoot a 2.5x scope well enough to keep the bullet within a six inch circle at two hundred yards....

[Nematocyst]

Excellent explanation. Thanks.

[BigG]

I just can't understand why they want long range cartridges with a close range sighting system?

Open sights or low power scopes work at extended ranges. Ask an old Marine if he can see 800 yards and then ask him what kind of scope was on his M14. ;)

We are not talking shooting precision groups, we are talking successfully engaging a rather large target at 300 yards or closer.

[rbernie]

We are not talking shooting precision groups, we are talking successfully engaging a rather large target at 300 yards or closer.
Depends on what you're shooting at. if you target is two-legged, then maybe a hit anywhere inside of an 18" x 24" oval is good enough for Government work. Been there and done that, standing in a fighting position on the qual range and shooting at a target that didn't move between shot attempts. :) But if the target is a 120lb doe or a 200lb hog, then I've only got a 6"-9" diameter target of opportunity (presuming that I'm looking for a humane kill) for one shot. Better make that one shot count.

And I am honest enough with myself to admit that I cannot repeatedly and reliably, under field conditions (standing/sitting/prone only, out of breath, hot-n-sweaty, across whatever wind happens to be blowing at the instant that the shot presents itself, and so forth) hit a 9" target at 300 yards using a 2.5x or 2.75x scope. Maybe I just suck, but frankly most of the folks that I know can't make that shot either. :)

[Nematocyst]

...hit a 9" target at 300 yards using a 2.5x or 2.75x scope. Maybe I just suck, but frankly most of the folks that I know can't make that shot either. Aw, now, rb, what's wrong with you?

Why, I remember the time I dropped a buck @ ~ 500 m with a scout rifle built up on 7mm08 with an 18" barrel using a Leupold 2.5X front mount. And that was in a stiff crosswind! Took me less than 1.5 seconds for target acquisition, and the bullet went right through both lungs & the heart. :p

Oh, no, wait... that was a dream I had last week.

Never mind.

:D

[MyRoad]

And I am honest enough with myself to admit that I cannot repeatedly and reliably, under field conditions (standing/sitting/prone only, out of breath, hot-n-sweaty, across whatever wind happens to be blowing at the instant that the shot presents itself, and so forth) hit a 9" target at 300 yards using a 2.5x or 2.75x scope.

I haven't been shooting rifles for very long, so I'm hoping that with practice I'll learn to be more steady, but I know from the range time I've done that under most field conditions (that I've simulated) 25 to 75 yards is my comfort zone, and 100 or 125 is the outside of my envelope. I'm lucky, because that suits the local hunting conditions.

So the bottom line for me is that I really don't have to worry about having a gun that can shoot over 150 yards, because unless my life depended on it (or I was shooting from a bench), I'd never attempt a shot of that distance. Also, on my M44 for instance, I don't have a "true" scout scope. I have a Burris handgun scope, variable 2x-7x. At 2x, I have the traditional scout scope power, and if I dial it out, I have a much clearer target assessment at 100 yards... works for me.

[444]

Another scout rifle thread where I gave my five cents worth is here: http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=178101&highlight=Scout I enjoyed going back and reading everyone's take again.


As I mentioned in that thread, people were shooting game at much longer ranges than 150 yards for many years with iron sights. Same game today, different shooters. NRA High Power shooters shoot precision bullseye targets out to 600 yards using iron sights and AR15s. Yet, we are now conditioned to believe that a magnified scout scope is somehow a handicap.

[ArmedBear]

I think that the primary benefit of the scope position is that with a low-powered scope it is very easy to keep both eyes open and target acquisition is faster

Bingo.

After you shoot shotguns a lot, it's hard to say goodbye to the significant advantages of shotgun pointing technique in the field. A long-range 3-9x scoped boltie is great, but it, not the scout-scoped rifle, is the "specialized rifle for specialized environments." It's actually harder and slower to acquire a target at 200 yards or less, with a standard scope, than with both-eyes-open pointing technique.

It's never a HANDICAP to be able to see what you're shooting at, and point quickly and accurately, as a forward-mounted scope lets you do. It can be pointed much like a bird gun, but at much longer range, of course. The scope functions more to provide a precise point of aim than to magnify a target a lot. Irons don't have a crosshair.

Out past 300 yards or more, of course a long-range boltie with a long-range scope is going to have an edge in precise accuracy. But the Ruger Frontier really was a pleasant surprise to me. Might have to buy one, at some point!

[rbernie]

NRA High Power shooters shoot precision bullseye targets out to 600 yards using iron sights and AR15s.Well, yes, but then again those targets don't move around too much, the shooter has reasonable setup time (ten rounds in ten minutes at 600 yards from a prone position, to use your 600 yard example), the targets are situated at known distances, the shooter hasn't been stalking the targets all day long over miles of terrain. and the price of failure isn't quite as dramatic as gut-shooting a deer at dusk.

Apples and bananas, say I. Maybe biatholon shooting would be a better analogy, if not a bit extreme in the converse.

As I mentioned in that thread, people were shooting game at much longer ranges than 150 yards for many years with iron sights. Probably true - but shooting at game and successfully dropping it with one shot are different things.

As rifle marksman come, I probably suck pretty badly. But I think that it's important for folks to live in their own reality instead of trying to plan their shooting around some Internet fantasyland whereby everyone is a sharpshooter who can place three shots inside a quarter at a hundred yards and drop a deer DRT at 500 yards offhand.

I don't believe in PLANNING for failure, but I also believe that a healthy dose of reality is useful on occasion. ;)

It's actually harder and slower to acquire a target at 200 yards or less, with a standard scope, than with both-eyes-open pointing technique.Interesting - I can't use the 'both-eyes-open' style with a scout scope. My brain simply will not properly manage the disparate inputs of the magnified/unmagnified views. I can (and do) shoot both-eyes-open for pistol, shotgun, and with red-dot rifle scopes, but I simply can't do it with magnified scopes.

Given that I'm shooting with my dominant eye focusing on the scope and the weak eye closed, I find that a conventional 1.5x-6x scope is not much slower at acquiring and tracking game inside of 100 yards, but is much faster to use in tracking game outside of 100 yards since the field of view is effectively ALL magnified.

The scout scope lets me see the world with both eyes open, but I can't USE the scout scope without closing the weak eye.

Does this make sense?

[ArmedBear]

The scout scope lets me see the world with both eyes open, but I can't USE the scout scope without closing the weak eye.

Does this make sense?

Makes perfect sense.

Everyone is different. I know people who shoot shotgun with little dots on their glasses. I never could, even though I shoot right and have a dominant left eye. I had better luck just retraining my eyes, using pistols mostly, then transferring the retraining to shotgun shooting.

I found that the Frontier worked well for me if I pointed it like a shotgun: cheek weld, move my whole upper body as a unit. Then my right eye didn't have to process anything until I was on target, at which point it became a non-issue to shift my focus to the reticle.

But again, I've done a lot to train my eyes, due to my cross-dominance issue when I started shotgunning.

I think you're absolutely right; someone who essentially shoots "one-eyed" with a rifle will find the Scout Scope to be inferior, even if they open their other eye. It's a different way that one's brain likes to process the picture, as you said.

[JohnKSa]

rbernie's objections are kind of along the lines that made me ask my earlier question.

I can see the benefit of a lowmounted optic with low or no magnification, but I don't see any benefit in forward mounting it once you get away from the idea of loading a box magazine from the top. Not only do you end up with possible glare problems when you're backlit, you also pretty much eliminate the possibility of using a variable mag scope since the forward mounting makes higher magnification impossible.

And, as pointed out, if you go with a low or no mag optic, you definitely limit the range at which you can make precision hits.

Seems that if we dispense with the need to rapidly load a box magazine from the top, it also does away with the need to forward mount the optics which gets us back to a more conventional design with a lowmounted variable scope.

You still have all the rapid sighting ability of a forward mount optic when the power is turned way down, but it also provides the ability to turn the magnification up when the occasion calls for it.

[444]

That all sounds good but you are losing the concept of the scout rifle. If you are talking about variable power scopes and precision hits you are not talking about a scout rifle.

Americans insist on putting large scopes on rifles. They can't talk about rifles without talking about shooting groups off the bench. They insist on talking about ranges that 99.9% of hunters can't really make shots other than on the internet. They insist on minimum degrees of accuracy that is not needed in the field and can't be duplicated in the field. The average American shooter doesn't believe it is possible to make hits with iron sights past spitting distance. This ISN'T what scout rifles are all about.
If you want a bolt action rifle with a long barrel, big scope, and all that, there are plenty of them out there. But, the scout rifle isn't one of them.

Clear your mind.
Ok, now think about a Winchester Model of 1894.
Do you imagine yourself putting a big variable power scope on it ? How about shooting groups off the bench ?
Probably not.
Why ?
Because the '94 is a utility rifle. It's design lends itself to iron sights or at most to a minimal magnification scope. The rifle can be shot at longish range but it certainly isn't the best for long range rifle work. It has killed thousands of elk, bear, and moose but probably wouldn't be someone's first choice for game that big. It has been used for many years as a self defense weapon but again, that probably wouldn't be our first choice for that either. The '94 was once used by various militaries, but not any more.
The point is that it is a general purpose rifle. It was used as such for over 100 years. It has proven itself over and over.
THIS is a lot closer to what a scout rifle is than what you guys are trying to turn the scout rifle into. The scout rifle is not just a bolt action rifle with a big scope on it used to shoot groups off the bench. It is a rifle for the man that only owns one rifle. It is a jack of all trades and MASTER OF NONE. It can do anything asked of a rifle but isn't the best at any of them. It can kill big game, it can be used to clear a building, it can be used in military combat, it can be used to shoot a coyote........................... It IS NOT a specialized tool.

[rbernie]

I understand EXACTLY what a scout-style rifle is; I own 'em and hunt with 'em (although my tastes run more to 336's than '94s). I have a 16" 336 in 30-30, a 20" 335 in 35 Remington, and a 20" 2A in 308.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=43093&d=1154662616

I also know what it's NOT good for, and that is making precision hits past 150 or 200 yards. That's all I've said, and why I contend that the scout-style scope mounting system is specialized in a way that a standard 2x-7x scoped rifle of the same form factor is not; because I can use a traditional 2x-7x in the woods as well as in the clearcuts, but you can't use the scout 2.5x to make that long shot.

[JohnKSa]

Americans insist on putting large scopes on rifles.Actually, I LOVE iron sights. There are only two scoped rifles in my gunsafe. One of them is my wife's and the other is a single shot long barrel .223 that came without sights and with no reasonable provision to mount them. The other 10 or so have iron sights--mostly apertures where that's feasible.

I like aperture sights--adding them is usually the first mod I make to a rifle that doesn't already have them.

I have no problem using an iron-sighted rifle--in fact I prefer it. But if you're going to mount a scope, you might as well make it worthwhile and I just don't see that forward mounting buys you anything while it definitely costs you things.

I'll ask my question again in the new context.

Is there any reason to use forward mounted optics over conventionally mounted optics once you eliminate the requirement to rapidly load a box magazine from the top? So far, I've not seen any claimed benefits that wouldn't apply equally to conventionally mounted optics and the conventional mount would give you some flexibility not present in the forward configuration.

[Stiletto Null]

I'm thinking about scouting an M39. Probably with a Leupold 2.5x28 Scout.

STANDARD stock, though. None of this sporter nonsense. :uhoh:

[ArmedBear]

You still have all the rapid sighting ability of a forward mount optic when the power is turned way down

No you don't. You completely lose your 3D vision -- assuming you're pointing with both eyes open, like a bird gun.

If you're only using one eye, well, then that would be true.

Try it. You might or might not like it, but the forward-mounted low-power scope, combined with point-shooting skills and eyes-open acquisition, has advantages that have nothing to do with stripper clips or straight bolts.:)

If you find yourself wishing for a scope when you have irons, and irons when you have a scope, the scout mounted low-power scope will solve that problem. It, too, has its up and downsides, but it does provide pointing like irons, with the easier precision aiming of a scope.

[JohnKSa]

You completely lose your 3D visionThat's because you have a much larger effective field of view with the conventionally mounted scope.

Saying you lose your 3D vision because one eye is looking through the scope is like saying you lose your peripheral vision when you look through binoculars. Sure you do, but you get a lot in return. And if your 3D vision is critical to you, you could always use a 1X (no magnification) scope or something like a holosight and leave both eyes open.If you find yourself wishing for a scope when you have irons, and irons when you have a scope, the scout mounted low-power scope will solve that problem.I don't see that. To me it sounds more like this:

A scout scope essentially gives you iron sight performance but with all the disadvantages of having an optic on your rifle.

[MyRoad]

A scout scope essentially gives you iron sight performance but with all the disadvantages of having an optic on your rifle.

John, you may need to actually try one out to see if it is something that works for you. And I don't mean just hold one up look through the scope - I mean go to a range or where ever you shoot, set up some targets and and practice some quick shots. For some people it's very fast and intuitive, for others, it may present no benefit.

I don't believe anyone is saying its the perfect set up. I think a lot of people are saying that once they've tried it, they really like it. YMMV.

[444]

"A scout scope essentially gives you iron sight performance but with all the disadvantages of having an optic on your rifle."

I disagree.
Having 2x magnification is not the same as iron sight performance. Iron sights are perfectly capable of making any reasonable hunting shot. It was done for hundreds of years. Have you ever gone to a museum or gun show and saw the iron sights that were on original muzzleloaders or even muzzleloading target rifles ? Litle tiny bits of brass on the end of a 40" barrel ? Yet, they managed to put food on the table with those sights when making the shot meant eating vs. starvation. Today, take a rifle and put a nitrogen filled, high tech manufactured 2x optic and the modern hunter considers it a huge handicap. :rolleyes:

Anyone using the term "precision hits" does not understand the scout rifle concept. Again, substitue the words '94 Winchester into the sentence about making precision hits at 200 yards.

Yes, the scout scope is supposed to give you a virtually unlimited field of view. It is designed to be fast on moving targets. It allows you to load the rifle EASILY from the top, preferably from a stripper clip. It allows you to carry the rifle at it's natural balance point. AND, the magnification is plenty to make realistic shots in the real world. Since the scout rifle is supposed to be a jack of all trades gun, it could also serve pretty damn well for combat situations where you might be shooting someone indoors at three yards also. Typical of hunters is that they are worried about making that mythical 843 yard shot but just as important with this rifle is making a hostage shot at five yards because once again, this is a general purpose rifle designed to be used for everything from self defense to hunting to military combat to varmint shooting. It isn't about precision. It is about putting a shot in the breadbasket of the target. It isn't about shooting the third button on a man's shirt, it is about putting a shot in the COM. It isn't about putting out a moose's eye, it is about making a double lung shot.

As has been posted in every single one of these threads, a scout rifle is more than the scope and mounting the scope on a lever action rifle a scout rifle does not make (although it makes a very handy rifle, of which I own two).

The legendary Chief AJ uses a scout scope on a Ruger 10/22 to shoot asprin tablets out of the air. That isn't something you do with your 2-7 variable.



FWIW, I don't have a dog in this fight.
If you read the link I posted earlier, I think the scout scope concept should be replaced with the modern electronic red dot optic like the Aimpoint ML3.

[JohnKSa]

444,

You must have missed my earlier post. I have nothing against iron sights--my point wasn't that iron sights are useless, it was that a forward mount scope doesn't really offer that much compared to a good set of aperture sights.Anyone using the term "precision hits" does not understand the scout rifle concept.You said it yourself--this rifle is supposed to be "a jack of all trades gun". Given that is the case, why limit the performance by forward mounting a scope and taking all the limitations that come with that choice.I think the scout scope concept should be replaced with the modern red dot optic like the Aimpoint ML3.I think it would have if Cooper had published the concept a few years later. Just like I think a scout rifle would have had aperture sights if he had published it a few years earlier.

But that's exactly what I was thinking--even if you decide you WANT or NEED an optic, why choose a low-power forward mounted scope over something like a modern red dot or equivalent.

[444]

"You said it yourself--this rifle is supposed to be "a jack of all trades gun".
That is shorthand for the full version: Jack of all trades, MASTER OF NONE.

Precision, long range shooting is a job that requires specialized hardware, NOT a jack of all trades gun. A jack of all trades gun makes reasonable shots at reasonable targets, not extreme shots at extremly precise targets. There is a problem however with specialized equipment: it isn't very versitile. I guess that is why they call it specialized. A military sniper rifle isn't the thing you want if you are clearing a building. The best trap shooting shotgun in the world isn't something that you want to make a 200 yard elk shot with. A Barret .50 isn't something you want to hump through the woods on your back. Shooting a bird on the wing isn't something that is easily done with a typical prarie dog rifle. .................... The scout rifle is the ONE rifle to have when you are only going to have ONE rifle. Again, most gun owners and shooters have sat down and had a discussion of what gun they would have if they could only have one gun. This is what Jeff Cooper came up with when he considered that very question.

At this point in the thread, I am just repeating the same thing over and over. There are better options for every single job the scout rifle is intended to be used for: long range shooting, personal defense, military combat, whatever. The scout rifle is simply a general purpose tool that CAN be used for all of the above and more.
Think of the multi-tool, the Leatherman. You carry it around on your belt. It is small and easy to carry. It doesn't get in the way. Mine has a knife, pliers, files, screwdrivers etc. on it. It isn't as good as a full sized pair of pliers or a 12" long file, or a full set of screwdrivers. The blade on mine is razor sharp but I wouldn't trade a butcher knife for my Leatherman if I was carving meat. BUT, it will usually suffice for most jobs. You won't find someone building an engine for an INDY race car with one. You won't find someone doing brain surgery with one. But, if you need a tool and you don't have the more specialized, heavier, harder to lug around, more inconvienient tools, it will get you by. If it was all you had, you could build a house. You wouldn't want to, but you could.

[nplant]

Sounds like everyone has overlooked one of the requirements of the Cooper concept, and that is backup irons.

See a good overview here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scout_rifle)

I've read a whole lot about Scout Rifles, and am building one based on the K98 style Mauser. The Cooper concept rifle had the forward mounted scope with the express purpose of (to quote the above-linked article): "[preserving] the shooters' peripheral vision, [clearing] the ejection port of the rifle, [making] possible the use of stripper clips to reload the rifle, and [eliminating] any chance of the scope striking one's brow during recoil. Cooper has stated that a telescopic sight is not mandatory."

So, if you're like Cooper, and find that this sort of mount makes sense for those reasons, then you're set. Otherwise, I don't see anything wrong whatsoever with mounting a scope of your choice in a location of your choice. Isn't personal preference a wonderful thing? Have your cake and eat it, too. Just don't go calling your rifle a "Scout" around anyone who really cares that much. It's not worth the name-calling. :D

[BigG]

JohnKSA: The forward mount also allows you to carry the Scout at its point of balance with one hand. You can't do that with a conventionally scoped rifle.

[444]

That is interesting that Cooper doesn't consider the scope to be mandatory, yet today, if someone has a forward mounted scope they call it a scout rifle as if the forward mounted scope makes it a scout rifle.

Listen, we all know that everyone is free to shoot any rifle they want. We also realize that you can call it anything you want. But, what is the point of having a thread about scout rifles if we are not going to be talking about scout rifles ?

[s&w 24]

I own a JC package steyr scout and I truly feel that is a fine rifle! As far as looks ? It is a well made rifle that is a joy to shoot. At some point S&W the seniors SMLE sporter will get an old redfield IER scope placed on it and his swede mauser carbine will have a no gunsmith IER scope mount put on it and we will have a little comparison test.

One of the big points with the cooper scout rifle is that it is light and short with a large enough cartrige for most game animals in the world. the old rem 788 carbine came close to what size rifle cooper wanted by I'm shure he would not be happy about the overall finish and the extractor system.

[rbernie]

what is the point of having a thread about scout rifles if we are not going to be talking about scout rifles ?Actually, I believe the thread content was pretty consistent in talking about 'scout-style' rifles (and specifically about the pros and cons of forward mounted scopes) rather than 'Scout' rifle, so as to preclude the "Keepers Of The One True Scout Flame" from getting their panties in a wad over the strict and immovable definition of a 'Scout' rifle. That was probably the reason for the word 'variations' in the thread title. :rolleyes:

I Googled this a while back, and found a decent compilation of the Scout concept as gleaned from Coopers' many writings. To keep "The Keepers Of The One True Scout Flame" happy, a 'Scout' rifle is (as defined by Col. Cooper):


Weight-sighted and slung: 3 kilograms (6.6 lb). This has been set as the ideal weight but the maximum has been stated as being 3.5 kg (7.7 pounds ).
Length: 1 meter (39 inches)
Barrel length: .48 meter (19 inches)
Sighting system: Forward and low mounted (ahead of the action opening) long eye relief telescope of between 2x and 3x. Reserve iron sights desirable but not necessary.
Action: Magazine fed bolt action. Detachable box magazine and/or stripper clip charging is desirable but not necessary.
Sling: Fast loop-up type, i.e. Ching or CW style.
Caliber: Nominally .308 Winchester (7.62 x 51 mm) or 7 mm - 08 Winchester (7 x 51 mm), with .243 Winchester (6 x 51 mm) being considered for frail individuals or where "military" calibers are proscribed.
Built-in bipod: Desirable but not mandatory.
Accuracy: Should be capable of shooting into 2 minutes of angle or less at 200 yards/meters (3 shot groups).

My 'scout' rifles all fail the definition (but not the words used to derive the definition) in that they are not chambered in the prescribed calibers, two are lever-action instead of bolt, and none have an exact 19" barrel. (However, from my readings of Cooper, he did not consider a levergun to be an absolute abomination of *his* scout definition.) Machs nichts to me one way or another because the stated GOAL of having a handy magazine-fed rifle capable of a rapid rate of fire in a significant caliber has been met by my Marlins and Ishy 2A.

That is interesting that Cooper doesn't consider the scope to be mandatoryBest I can tell, he DID think the scope necessary - the backup irons were optional.

[Nematocyst]

...so as to preclude the "Keepers Of The One True Scout Flame"
from getting their panties in a wad over the strict
and immovable definition of a 'Scout' rifle.LOL.

LOL, again.

One more time: LOL.

[Don't Tread On Me]

I'm not trying to hijack this thread, but I've been wondering something.

I totally understand the definition of what makes for a scout rifle, but I don't know exactly what is meant by "scout". I kinda-sorta understand what scouting is..but it seems that people's definitions vary wildly.

Right now, and for a long time, I've kinda considered this rifle concept to be useless. But Jeff Cooper is a God in the firearm world, so I can't be ignorant and judge something without knowing everything first, especially when the creator of this concept has a lot of knowledge and experience.

Rather than what the rifle is made up of. What would you use it for? HOW would you use it? Can anyone describe a scenario where it would be used, and how it would be used? Why is it better than some other rifle in that role? Does it have a main role? Is this meant to have some sort of military application? Self defense? Is this for hunting only? All of the above?


There have been a lot of criticisms over this rifle concept in older threads. It would make more sense to judge the rifle on its suitability for a specific task/role, rather than on personal preferences.

[Nematocyst]

What would you use it for? HOW would you use it? Can anyone describe a scenario where it would be used, and how it would be used?For what would I use it?

A utility rifle. Like a SAK (http://www.swissarmy.com/MultiTools/default.htm?category=multitools&), only shoots bullets.

Defends. Gets game (at <100m). Carries well. Light. Nice balance.

Other stuf, too, but you get the picture.

How would I use it?

Real fast. Off the left shoulder,
raised to aim from an 'African barrel-down carry (http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob040111.html)' sling position.

Game or self defense,
which ever applies.
(Preferably the former.)

Why is it better than some other rifle in that role? Fast target acquisition - especially for closer, moving targets in thicker brush -
as compared to, say, a 22" barrel with a 7X scope.

Does it have a main role? Is this meant to have some sort of military application? Self defense? Is this for hunting only? All of the above?All of the above.

The scout rifle at the top of my wish list (http://www.ruger-firearms.com/Firearms/FAProdView?model=17916&return=Y).

I'll take one in 7mm08 (http://members.tripod.com/sed88/rem7/) or .308 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.308), please.

;)

[444]

"What would you use it for? HOW would you use it? Can anyone describe a scenario where it would be used, and how it would be used? Why is it better than some other rifle in that role? Does it have a main role? Is this meant to have some sort of military application? Self defense? Is this for hunting only? All of the above?"

I answered this question in most, if not all of the posts I made on this thread.

[Stiletto Null]

What would you use it for? HOW would you use it? Can anyone describe a scenario where it would be used, and how it would be used?1. Plinking, mostly. I like to shoot at 100yd (I'd like to move out to 200, too), and while I do OK (I've gotten groups as small as 2" at that distance, using irons), I'd like a better sight picture.

2. SHTF, my scout rifle will be my go-to gun. At close range, you can use a (scout) scope like one of the old-fashioned one-eye-blocked reflex sights. At longer ranges, well, a scope's nice for boosting precision. Main advantage: being able to see the target AND sight picture clearly.

Right now, I'm torn between scouting out an SKS (with a red dot), or scouting out my M39 or K31 (with a Leupold 2.5x28 Scout).

[ctdonath]

I don't know exactly what is meant by "scout"The idea is someone who is going into the field for a prolonged period, and needs a convenient rifle to harvest game and defend himself, with maybe some occasional offensive action. He may be simply backpacking for a couple weeks, doing some serious big-game hunting, lives way out in the boonies, or is sneaking around gathering intel in a war. He's someone who anticipates needing a gun, but can't say for exactly what purpose, and does not have the luxury of multiple guns to choose from for whatever task arises.

My use would be the "if I could only have one gun" type scenario, where having a gun suitable for whatever comes is more important than having the optimal tool for a particular application - sort of the ultimate SHTF gun. If I have to grab one gun and go, with no immediate prospects of swapping or reloading, it's the Steyr Scout.

Partly as an experiment, I took a Steyr Scout to a long-range rifle course (Storm Mountain's LRR1&2). Scoffed at by the staff at first for its light weight and pencil-thin short barrel, it held its own very nicely up against "real" sniper rifles, having only been modifed with a 10x (working up to 1000m precision shots) mil-dot (for range estimation) scope rear-mounted (you don't forward-mount a 10x) on 20MOA-sloped (to compensate for extreme elevation adjustments accentuated by the lower velocity) rings. It wasn't ideal, but it did the job admirably (to the surprise of the instructors).

It would make more sense to judge the rifle on its suitability for a specific task/role"Specific" is exactly the wrong word. The design is very deliberately geared toward general purpose use (go read up on its history in To Ride, Shoot Straight, And Speak The Truth by Cooper). For any specific use, you WILL find something else better ... but that something else will be significantly less useful for other tasks. Again, it's a "jack of all trades, master of none."

, rather than on personal preferences.Even that is generalized. It's the kind of gun that you can hand to pretty much anyone, and they can easily apply it to pretty much whatever task. No, it may not satisfy personal preferences of length or caliber or range or mechanism or speed or aesthetics - but it will do well within margins of necessity.

[s&w 24]

The scout rifle's "scout" name comes from the post WW I definition of an infantry scout, operating alone or as a pair in and near enemy territory as an observer/sniper. Col. Cooper always liked the idea of a slr scout but they have always come out too heavy to meet specs and as Col. Cooper and the scout consept aged it changed to a military/hunting gun to a mostly hunting rifle.

[PAC 762]

This is the pseudo-scout I just built. I still need to bed the action and add a rear sight, but wanted to slap it together to see how it shots. It started life as a 1942 dated K. Kale Turk M38. I chopped the barrel to 19" and recrowned. I replaced the original front sight and added an ashley outdoors mount (wasted too much time and money trying to make my own). I cut the original stock down and removed some wood to lighten it. Routed out the inside to float the barrel and fit the Timney trigger it place of the original (Huge improvement). Refinished the stock with truck bed liner and the metal with dark park allumihyde 2. I made my own ching slig out of a pair of cheap leather slings I got on a closeout sale. The pics didn't come out great, but it looks decent in-person and handles well. It meets all of cooper's basic criteria with the exception of being about a pound or two over weight.

[Stiletto Null]

Nothing wrong with a heavy-ish barrel, IMO. Sporter barrels look like they'll bend if I look at them funny.