Glock good or not what is it???


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jfanzen
August 12, 2006, 09:46 PM
hey everyone.. im a noob and i went shooting the other day i shot a 9mm berretta and a .45.. i loved the 45 it was awesome so now im looking to buy.. the glock is at a great price but ive heard.. well you get for what you pay for.. its cheap.. it sucks... i hate it.. not accurate... and then i hear.. its awesome.. very reliable. great price and never rusts.. so to all you gun masters.. what is it? is it a good gun or not? what are the pros and the cons of the glock say the 45 because thats what im looking to get.. but also i saw a smith and wesson 45 for 900 in there.. it looked gorgeous.. but i think i might start out glock unless you guys can tell me if its good or not? thanks

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symr00
August 12, 2006, 09:58 PM
Glocks are fantastic firearms. They are usually 100% reliable out of the box depending on carry ammo I suppose. They are pretty much ambidexterous and extremely simple and durable. If you plan on carrying it concealed, I would recommend the G30 which is the smaller, double-stack version of the G21. he G30 is about the same size as the G19 and the G21 is well, a big gun to hide. IMO, you can't beat a Glock for a reliable, inexpensive, semi-auto self-defense handgun.

Mooseman
August 12, 2006, 09:58 PM
My personal opinion are that Glocks are very decent guns. Folks tend to love or hate them. My advice is to rent a Glock and some other make guns in the caliber you like and determine what feels right for you. BTW if you like the 45 Glock you should definitely try the XD45 as well.:)

jfanzen
August 12, 2006, 10:04 PM
I think i am going to go with the s&w .45 or rent something very similar to it.. the xd 45.. hmm never ever heard of it.. and as for the glock.. ive searched on here and well 80% love the guin and claim to have had it for years soo i think ill get a 9mm glock.. and as for .45 i think i might look into it some more thanks guys for the replies I JUST SAW THE XD .45 IT LOOKS LIKE A GOOD GUN BUT ITS NOT DUAL ACTION RIGHT? WHERE YOU PULL THE TRIGGER HARD THE FIRST TIME AND THEN THE REST ARE EASY?? AND THE PRICE IS 500-676.. NOT VERY ECXPENSIVE... IS THE S&W BETTER ?

Harley Quinn
August 12, 2006, 10:15 PM
Check out the xd, it is very similar to the Glock but it has a Grip safety.

Mdl 17 9mm, Glock is a winner, for a shooter you cannot go wrong.

Rent one of each and you will not be sorry. Shoot a box through each.
Triggers are similar but different. I believe either gun, is a great gun to own, your preference of course.:)

HQ

10-Ring
August 12, 2006, 10:18 PM
Glock did it best w/ their 9mm line but they do have fans in all calibers. I've owned several but only have a 9mm now...the 19 :D

redneckrepairs
August 12, 2006, 10:19 PM
Ok i need to put my flame suit on for this post .. but here goes anyway Both glock and XD are fine pistols , they are almost sisters the differance you will note is how they feel in your hand , one will point more naturaly for you than the other one .. that is the one you buy . there is no real right or wrong , its just what works best for you both are quality arms .

The Lone Haranguer
August 12, 2006, 10:22 PM
Rent one, if possible, and see how well you like it. I have had a Glock 19 since 1999 that has given me excellent service and is my primary "go-to" carry/self-defense handgun. Reliable (the most important trait in any handgun), not too high priced, easy to shoot and hit with, light weight, compact in size (compared to similar capacity guns) yet still holding 15 rounds of 9mm, adds up to a good gun. I have also owned a 30 (compact 10-round .45), have shot a 36 (a six-round, slimmer .45 which performed impressively) and currently own a 27 (a subcompact .40) as a companion to the 19 for when I want a little smaller gun. Why not a 26 for commonality of cartridge and lighter recoil in a small gun? Actually I would have preferred it ... but I couldn't pass it up for $299..:neener:

So don't let anyone tell you that Glocks are junk. Some of their traits aren't for everyone, but one of the wonderful things about this country (in non-oppressed states, anyway;) ) is that we have choices.

Glock_10mm
August 12, 2006, 10:29 PM
I love both glocks and beretta's and would trust my life with either (as I have carried both). I like the glock best as my G29 is smaller and more powerful than the beretta, but they are both good choices (the G19 too)! The beretta 92f (if thats what you're talking about) is pretty hard to conceal though in my opinion compared with the smaller glocks. It takes as much work to conceal the larger glocks though.

PS - A good friend had an xd 40 and it was built well but very unreliable with hollowpoints jamming (many types). It was so often, he usually carried FMJ's so he would feel comfortable. I was with him when he bought it, and it was new. I haven't heard anything more from anyone else, and the reports I have read have been good so maybe his was just bum or just in the .40, but thought I 'd let you know. Not much jamming on the glock or beretta.

CSA 357
August 12, 2006, 10:30 PM
when the glock first came out i said thats the uglyest thing i ever saw! then years latter i shot one , got one a glock 21 fell in love now i have 30 and a 19 the glock is a great gun! i bet the people that hate them never tryed one, thats all it took for me, good luck, *csa*:)

ugaarguy
August 12, 2006, 10:31 PM
jfanzen,

You need to go to the gunstore and handle several different pistol makes and models to see what fits your hand. I owned a Glock for several years until I realized that other pistols fit MY hand better and I shot them better; there was nothing wrong the Glock, it just didn't fit ME. You need to see what pistols fit YOUR hand well; can you reach the trigger easily, do you like the safety, slide release, and magazine release locations? After you narrow it down to a top 4 or 5 then go to the range and see which pistols you shoot best out of your top choices. Also, what is your price range? In addition to Glock I'll recommend Springfield Armory - both their XDs and 1911s - pistols, SiG, H&K, Ruger, Taurus, Beretta, CZ, FN, Browning, Kimber, Colt, and S&W. Keep us updated on your search.

KINGMAX
August 12, 2006, 10:33 PM
A GLOCK is really nothing to look at. It's basic black, half plastic, half metal. No chrome, nothing to polish up. It is made to perform and that is does. The trigger is a bit strong, but I shouldn't be able to pull off a shot accidentally. As for as accurate, any gun you earnestly practice with, :scrutiny: should yield improvement. GLOCK 21 .45 acp = Don't leave home without it!!! :)

ugaarguy
August 12, 2006, 10:36 PM
jfranzen,

Please also see this post on how triggers/firing mechanisms on Glocks and XDs operate. http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=2566851&postcount=7

Nathan Williams
August 12, 2006, 10:49 PM
I own a Glock or two. Lets start with the cons, most people find them to be ugly ( not myself I see grace in their simplicity, the XD is the ugliest gun on the market to me) however looks alone should not dictate your purchase. Some people hate the grip angle on a Glock I have big hands so I dont mind. The stock sights suck, thats all I can think of at the moment.

Now for the pros. They are affordable. i bought my model 21 for $490.00, brandnew, with two 12 rnd mags, case, and cleaning kit. they are reliable. I have shot well over 2000 rounds through mine with only one failure ( caused by a improperly seated bullet ). They are easy to maintain, no tools needed to field strip, and hell i have only cleaned it 4 or 5 times since I bought her. High capacity in a .45, 12+1 rounds as opposed to the 1911's 7+1. Front rail for mounting any gadgets you want. Accuracy is no problem either, they arent going to match a $2000 1911 but you wont have any trouble hitting the broad side of a barn from the inside. I can shoot my box stock 21 (except the sights) at 25 yards and hit the 10ring all day. All in all I think the glock is the best gun for the money. I love mine and my next purchase may be another Glock in 9mm.

jfanzen
August 12, 2006, 10:52 PM
man you guys are awesome.. im a stunt rider with a crotch rocket and i am on a forum but when i started out they were never as helpful as you guys thanks so much! im thinking of getting the glock as a 9 mm to practice.. yea its hideous no polish and all but itll do.. my price range for a .45 is 1000 bucks i dont want to go too much higher... i shot my buddies .45.. i forgot what kind it was i know it wasnt S&W nor glock.. ill have to ask him .. i shot his berretta 9mm though an di didnt like it too much.. when i go to the range im going to rent a glock 9mm and ill ask the guy what is the closest gun he has there i can rent that comes close to the S&W .45.. he had two there one was going for 950 and the other 980.. there were also sigs there??? i beleive they looked nice but dont know how they shoot.. I also heard the H&k or the HK is awesome.. thats the guy that told me glocks are horrible too.. soo

Eightball
August 12, 2006, 11:03 PM
They're cheap, and they work. Sorta like an AK47. They aren't refined in any way, but they will go "bang" every time. To me, they have some seriously messed up ergonomics, the safety and trigger both stink, and it feels like a plastic hunk of crap; if I'm going to buy a pistol, I'm going to buy something nice, metallic, with some class, and a good trigger--as well as these things called "safeties". I'm not totally against polymer-framed pistols, mind you--but I like a bit more style outta my firearms than "plastic and metal--insert bullets". That being said, I don't know of a glock that won't go "bang"--but it is like the AK of the pistol world--cheap, reliable, and "everyone's got one". YMMV.

RyanM
August 12, 2006, 11:06 PM
( not myself I see grace in their simplicity, the XD is the ugliest gun on the market to me)

Amen!

Anyway, the con that almost everyone mentions is the trigger. Well, the design of the trigger is definitely a pro, because you can easily change it to feel however you want. You can equalize the takeup and break weights somewhat, making a trigger like a stacky double action (done it), you can shorten and pull until it feels like a regular single action, while keeping all safeties functional (done it), or anything in between. There are even drop-in kits that give you a 2 pound trigger pull, and there are some gunsmiths that can reduce that down to 1 pound. And the parts are cheap enough that if you mess something up, you're only out about $10 or $15.

denfoote
August 12, 2006, 11:07 PM
Now mind you this is a 11 year old second generation G23 that led a hard life in the holster of a DEA agent BEFORE it came into my hands. :scrutiny:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v22/denfoote/G23a-grip005.jpg


I guess it still works!!! :evil:


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v22/denfoote/Glock23target10yards003.jpg

A decade old Glock still works as well as it did when it first came out of the box. All that was ever replaced were the springs at their scheduled intervals.

longeyes
August 12, 2006, 11:31 PM
ALL things considered, show me better. It's a pretty amazing package. I like the 19, 26, and 30 best.

Eightball
August 13, 2006, 12:45 AM
ALL things considered, show me better. It's a pretty amazing package. I can show you better looking, better ergonomics, better mechanism.....but even though I'm not a Glock fan, I gotta admit that they're reliable.

But when I want reliability, I stick to my wheelguns:p . Old habits die hard.

longeyes
August 13, 2006, 12:51 AM
Glocks are more than just "reliable." I'm talking total package. That means weight, durability, capacity, finish, accuracy, ease of maintenance, value for price, et al. You can quibble about esthetics and ergonomics but in all the "hard" categories Glock is at or near the top.

(By the way I like 1911s and Maks too! :))

Eightball
August 13, 2006, 01:03 AM
Glocks are more than just "reliable." I'm talking total package. That means weight, durability, capacity, finish, accuracy, ease of maintenance, value for price, et al. You can quibble about esthetics and ergonomics but in all the "hard" categories Glock is at or near the top.I've seen better finish guns at a gun show, and from what I've heard, there's more accurate things out there. But you're correct--I can quibble about ergonomics--at least enough to rule out a Glock from my collection. I'm just picky. But yes, they're good value.

But, ah, variety is the spice of life. If you like Glocks, buy them--save the rest of the guns for me :p

possum
August 13, 2006, 01:41 AM
I don't know about everyone elses glocks but mine is sweeeeeeet! I have a glock 19 which is the mid size 9mm, i have put 500rds through it in the last two range sessions last sat, and today. I like it alot and would reccomend one to anybody that wants a great handgun that will keep on kicking way after the shooter does. They are fine firearms that deserve every bit of praise they recieve. I like the xd better but hey i have to give credit where it is do. 9mm is cheap to shoot,and a hoot to shoot it is awesome!

SilverState
August 13, 2006, 01:50 AM
I usually carry a 1911. However, I started with Glocks and cannot seem to get rid of my 17 and 20. You simply cannot beat the reliability and price.

http://sincitypitbulls.freeservers.com/Glock17AHR.JPG

http://sincitypitbulls.freeservers.com/Glock20wlt.JPG

I did get rid of my 21, because I have too many .45s

vynx
August 13, 2006, 02:21 AM
I think you are on the right track with buying a glock in 9mm for a first gun.

The 9mm ammo is a little less expensiev and you can practice a lot and when you move up to a .45 you have a nice reliable high capacity second gun for a future wife, girlfriend, whatever.

You mention the S&W .45, please note there are a few different types of S&W in .45. There are Traditional Double Actions (TDA) which is what you reffered to as dual action, and there are single action S&Ws in a 1911 style. They probably have a double action only style too.

I myself don't have a problem moving from single action to double action to the glock style or trigger but some people prefer to stay with one type of action so that it is the same on their different guns...something to think about.

In the meantime, you can learn alot about shooting with your Glock and learn alot about all the different .45s before you buy one.

p.s. sig makes a great gun...can't go wrong with their .45

GroovedG19
August 13, 2006, 02:29 AM
Have owned 2 glocks in the last 3 years.They have been 100% reliable and combat accurate.Glocks are no nonsense, all business pistols.I would go so far as to say they are pure killing machines(in the right hands).

I wouldn't hesitate to purchase a glock in 9x19mm(G17, G19, G26, G34) or in .45ACP(G21, G30, G36).If it fits your hands, go for it.

Harley Quinn
August 13, 2006, 02:48 AM
When you had your 21 did you ever switch slides and shoot the 20 on one and the 21 on the other?

I understand they are interchangeable? Same frame 1.27.
Anyone know for sure? I have a few glocks and have heard the mdl 22 and 17 are interchangeable. Have not tried to switch them though.

HQ

Nathan Williams
August 13, 2006, 09:33 AM
I did get rid of my 21, because I have too many .45s

Nonsense........you can never have to many:evil:

HorseSoldier
August 13, 2006, 09:48 AM
Like other people suggested, see if you can rent one at a range and try putting some rounds through it.

Personally, I really don't care for Glocks, primarily for the ergonomics. If you try one out and the grip angle and controls don't bother you, however, they are quite good weapons. Reliable, accurate enough for combat/defensive use, and reasonably priced (though you get more gun for the money with a CZ and Springfield XDs are a bit less pricey than Glocks).

SilverState
August 13, 2006, 11:36 AM
I did not put a 20 slide on a 21 frame. However, they ARE interchangeable and will be 100% reliable. I did put a 10mm conversion barrel in my Glock 21 (before buying my Glock 20) and it worked okay for the range, but it was not 100% reliable due to the 21 extractor and the fact that the conversion barrel was a match barrel with tighter clearances. Maybe after a 1000 rounds or so, it would become 100% reliable, but with a Glock, I did not want to wait that long.

1911 guy
August 13, 2006, 11:43 AM
They are very reliable. Keep 'em clean, keep 'em fed. Simple enough, right? However, in my opinion, they're as ugly as homemade sin. Best bet is to try one out and see if you like it. See if it fits your hand and points somewhat naturaly for you. If so, get one. Fit and aesthetics are the issue for you, reliability is going to be there.

As you can tell by my handle, I had to choke as I wrote this. :evil:

longeyes
August 13, 2006, 11:45 AM
When you absolutely, positively have to survive, you will take a Glock or a 1911. Those who are more manually adept will take John Moses's baby; the rest of us will pack, enthusiastically or not, the Glock.

aguyindallas
August 13, 2006, 12:02 PM
With 7 of them in my stable, I would have to say that they are great guns! Not the most sexy of the bunch, but they serve their purpose and do it well.

Totally reliable, easy to maintain/fix/upgrade/accessorize. Magazines are available ANYWHERE and are cheap compared to most others.

Of course, as I type this, my G23 is riding in my Comp-Tac Shirt Tucker...

Harley Quinn
August 13, 2006, 12:56 PM
I believe the Glock to be the most reliable handgun I have ever shot.

I shot my sons 1991 a1, 80 year commerative of the 1911 a1.
It was right out of the box, good shooter. He has shot it for years, first time I shot it. Felt good.

Silver State thanks for the get back,

HQ:)

English1
August 13, 2006, 02:07 PM
In shooting terminology, don't go off at half cock. You don't know much about handguns and it takes time to learn. I don't mean the things that you can learn from reading books, magazines and forums like this, though that is good too, but things you can only learn by shooting.

Lots of people are saying, "Get what fits your hand." but until you have done some shooting you can't even begin to judge what fits your hand. Some people above are saying that the Glock is ergonomic. Some people are saying that it is not. The simple fact is that the variation among hands is such that you can't predict what will be good for your hand and someone else's opinion in the matter is almost worthless. Some people, like me, find the Glock 21 and 20 to be just right. They have a grip which is longer front to back that the G17, G19 and most others. I find the G17 causes me problems. It feels fine till I shoot it but then it hurts. I know how to fix this but you have to go step by step. Other people find the G21 grip far too big. Others, with even smaller hand find it no problem.

Shoot as much as you can with borrowed or hired pistols. Try different models in the same make as well as different makes. Just because one model is good for you it doesn't mean that they all will be.

Try to uderstand the differences between different trigger actions. Double action is where you have a long quite heavy trigger pull that both pulls back the hammer and then releases it to fire the gun. That is, your single action performs two actions in the gun. Single action is where the hammer is already cocked. That is, it is pulled back against spring pressure and held on a catch. Pulling the trigger with a short light movement will perform the single action of releasing the catch to fire the gun. The Smith & Wesson you have seen has both. With the hammer down you can pull through the double action and fire the gun provided that the safety catch is off. It is quite safe in that condition because the trigger action is long and heavy and hard to set off by mistake. Once you have fired the first shot, the recoil moves the slide back, loads another cartridge and leaves the hammer cocked and ready to fire in single action mode. When you finish shooting you have to either lower the hammer, which is slightly dangerous, or put the safety on, but that leaves it in a condition which is not the one you train with. I am talking about combat situations rather than range shooting here.

It is easier to shoot accurately with single action than double action and some pistols, like the Colt 1911 family, only have single action. If you want to carry this type with a cartridge in the chamber ready to fire you must either start by pulling the hammer back to cock it or by having the hammer ready cocked but having a thumb operated safety on safe. Before you can pull the trigger you have to perform one of these two actions because it would be too dangerous to carry it otherwise. You can learn to operate the safety very quickly but it is an extra complication to the learning process which some people never become happy with.

The Glock, the Steyr, and the XD get round this problem by having a heavier and longer trigger movement than a single action but usually shorter and lighter than a double action. This lets the gun be reasonably safe in the way that a double action is. It means that it does not need an externally operated safety and so it is very easy to operate. If you don't want to shoot dont put your finger in the trigger guard! It has several othr benefits for a combat type pistol which I will not go into but the downside is that it is not as easy to shoot accurately as a good single action. For a combat pistol which is used quickly at short range this is not a problem but when you hear people say how unpleasant the Glock trigger is, it is because they have learned to shoot with a nice single action and have not managed to adapt to the Glock. If you can learn on the Glock you will be able to shoot a single action. The other way round can be more difficult.

You can probably see that there is no perfect answer - it is all a compromise and it is up to you to choose the compromise that suits you best.

For what it is worth the Glock is a very clever design and is an excellect pistol for its purpose. If you want to carry the pistol for self defence it is about half the weight of the Smith and that is very important.

For all these reasons, do not buy two guns at once, In particular do not buy a Glock and a Smith because going from one trigger type to another will make it very hard to develop your skill.

Decide what you want a pistol for. Do you want a beautiful piece of machinery that you can admire as a work of art. If you do, by all means buy the Smith - they are strongly built and beautifully made and will give you much pleasure. If you want a gun for self defence or if you want to learn and develop all round skill with, then, apart from starting with a .22, get a Glock or a Steyr (I don't much like the XD but that is probably personal). It is not a great investment and if you don't like it you can sell it, but by then you will have developed your knowledge and ideas.

English

Harley Quinn
August 13, 2006, 02:24 PM
Just to enforce English's remarks. I never owned or shot a Sig.

My son has a 40 cal and when we went shooting I shot it at the range, put 100 rounds through it.
I did not like the way it fit my hand, the web area became sore and it was not as comfortable as my Glock 40 cal mdl 22. After shooting the 100 rounds out of it, I made up my mind, never bought one.

The Sig is a nice gun, but I like the Glock. Many reason's. I have shot many of the latest and greatest. But the one I carry is a Glock, either my 9 or 40.
Looking to buy a few more.
I believe I will sell some of the others that have been in the safe so long, no need to keep um. Just applied for SS and who know's how long you got. Need a 45 Glock and a 10mm. :what: :p

Regards,

HQ:)

Mark-P14
August 13, 2006, 03:06 PM
I think the shooter who started this thread sounded like a new handgunner. If that's the case a Glock is a fine choice. Many, many people swear by these guns and they have a great reputation. For my own personal tastes, I cannot handle the grip angle on a Glock. It is not natural to me because my muscle memory is tuned to a 1911 style ange. The fact is the 1911 grip angle is used by just about every combat auto (Beretta, S&W, Sig, H&K, etc) except for the Glock might help you make a decision. If you plan on expanding your collection and want continuity in grip angle, you might want to consider an XD or H&K polymer pistol instead.

Harley Quinn
August 13, 2006, 03:44 PM
The angle should be of such that your upper knuckles are in line with your arm and wrist. The topline should be pretty straight.

The way to test, is to hit at an object with your arm extended and your top knuckles furthur forward, towards the mass being struck.

This is the classical punch in karate.

You are driving your two strongest knuckles into the person. The two knuckles are trained on a makiwara, or bag and help strengthen your arm and knuckles.

It is to be under guidence of someone who knows what they are doing.
It, like shooting, takes time and perseverance to become good.

Practice makes perfect they say. My thoughts anyway:)

HQ

226
August 13, 2006, 05:16 PM
Glock 21 Malfunction (http://lightfighter.net/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1931084651/m/2161077111?r=6921022211#6921022211), Lightfighter Tactical Forum, DocGKR, Posted 24 February 2005

DocGKR
Ballistic Expert!

Posted 24 February 2005 07:46 PM
Numerous failures of G21's in law enforcement use around here, including three blown guns at the local Police Academy and multiple magazine failures, have resulted in many of the tactical teams in our area going back to 1911's. All the blown LE Glock's had ONLY fired new factory ammo. Glock's in other than 9mm seem particularly prone to this problem, as the Glock disconnector allows the pistols to fire slightly out of battery. If you are LE, you can discuss these problems with Don Lazzarini, who was on the SWAT team many years, as well serving as range-master and armorer with Santa Clara PD; he has the most in depth knowledge of this issue of anyone I have met so far.

Larry Vickers is widely acknowledged as one of the best pistolsmiths currently working, as well as the only member of the American Pistolsmith's Guild to simultaneously serve on active duty in the U.S. military. Mr. Vickers served in numerous SOF assignments and may have more experience with .45 ACP pistols used in combat environments than just about anyone else on earth. Vickers has publicly stated:

quote:
"The 9mm Glocks are the best--the .40 S&W ones blow up and the full size .45 breaks - it's the worst gun Glock makes."

The bottom line is that the G21 has too many problems to be considered a hard use combat pistol. I’ll stick to Glocks in 9 mm.

From the same thread:

DocGKR
Ballistic Expert!

Posted 26 February 2005 02:10 AM
This topic has been discussed at length previously; each of us brings our own experiences into the debate. Since 1985, at various times I have personally been issued or authorized to use on duty Beretta 92F and M9’s, Sig P226, S&W 5906, Glock 17, Sig P220, S&W 4566, and various 1911’s. All of these pistols had both good and bad characteristics. I am also quite familiar with the Browning Hi-Power, S&W 4006, and have experience with the HK .45’s. In my current role I have gotten to travel around the country quite a bit and see what other units and agencies are using and assess how their weapon systems are functioning. There are many pistols which will give adequate service for routine law enforcement or military duty use. The number of pistols which are reliable, durable, and ergonomic enough for very demanding law enforcement tactical and harsh military special operations use is much smaller.

14 years and 66,500 rounds—-that works out to an average of 4750 rounds per year and is pretty typical of most LE pistol use. There are quite a few pistols that will hold up well to that type of routine use. Now, try 20,000+ rounds EVERY year and then see how many pistols can reach 14 years. Pat Rogers has written about the round counts of MEU-SOC 1911's http://www.forcerecon.com/strongmenarmed3.htm:

quote:
"During the course of a workup/ deployment, the operator will put a lot of rounds through his pistol. It is not uncommon for the pistols to come back with 80,000+ rounds fired. The pistol will be returned to the PWS at Quantico for a rebuild. Generally, all parts save the frame (which is a U.S. Government frame last manufactured in 1945) are discarded. The frame is inspected, and if within specs, rebuilt again. There are some frames that may have had as many as 500,000 rounds fired from them."



As stated above, the number of pistols that can survive this type of hard-use is small.

As noted in my post above, Larry Vickers is very experienced with .45 ACP combat handguns that get used very hard. He has publicly written that: “The facility I work at consumes over 1 million rounds of .45 ACP hardball per year” When he writes that Glocks in other than 9 mm have durability issues in hard-use, it is because of this intense usage. However, he is not alone in his observations.

Like Larry Vickers, Hilton Yam is another pistolsmith of renown, who also has extensive end-user experience, in Hilton’s case LE SWAT. Hilton has written:

quote:
Today while at the range, I had the most unpleasant experience of seeing my entire Glock 23 slide assembly go downrange. Upon examination of the pistol, the cause of the failure was found to be the breakage of the slide lock (the takedown lever, NOT the slide stop) spring. This tiny leaf spring provides the spring tension that keeps the slide lock up and in place. With that broken, the slide lock went sideways and the slide went forward off the rails. The spring broke at the juncture where it is inserted into the frame. Initially, I thought I was totally SOL b/c it appeared that this spring was molded into the frame itself. Fortunately, this tiny spring is merely hooked into a recess in the frame and is easily replaced (in my case, with a spring from a handy spare G19). Aside from my obvious alarm at the failure of my primary weapon, this was the THIRD failure of this exact type I'd personally seen in the last 3 weeks. All failures were seen on Glock 23's, and the culprit on the other two was also the slide lock spring…my one Glock 23 broke before 10k rds, and another 23 was about to be melted into a paperweight before 2k rds thanks to constant malfunctions. Same goes for a new 22. Both newer guns were trying to wear an ITI M3, with limited success. While I recognize the Glocks as workhorse guns that have their place as fighting firearms, I consider them neither perfect nor fun.

I'm around several hundred Glock 22's and 23's that see use and abuse from mild to extreme. The guns are a solid service platform, but far from perfect and 100% reliable as people would make them out to be. The guns have a typical service life of about 20,000 rounds, often less, before some type of failure causes them to be pulled from service. One shooter I know well is on his FIFTH Glock in about as many years, having had failures with each one, to include going full auto, sheared bbl lug, cracked slide, and the top end falling off when the slide lock spring broke. I was present at each failure or personally inspected the parts subsequent to each. I've inspected countless other guns which met similar fates. The magazines typically only last for a 10k to 20k round count duty cycle before needing replacement. The guns can be very ammunition sensitive as well. I'm not down on Glocks, it's just that I recognize their shortcomings as far as durability and reliability.

Re: the HK USP series, they are indeed durable and reliable duty platforms, but their ergonomics and general shootability leave much to be desired.

Re: the 1911, I am saddened that so few modern 1911's will work right out of the box, but the problems I see are from a manufacturing standpoint, not a design flaw. A 1911 that's made right either at the factory or by a custom shop will be every bit the reliable service weapon that was first fielded nearly a century ago. The 1911 wins many diehard converts because of its unequalled ergonomics, allowing the end user to achieve his maximum potential without fighting the gun.

The bottom line is that you don't need to like anyone else's choice of gun, but be able to articulate well why you choose your particular handgun.



Mr. Yam’s experiences are in line with what I have noted. One of our nearby SO's has approximately 800 deputies who have been issued G22's for over a decade; the SGT in charge of their FT stated they have never had a pistol which lasted beyond 50,000 rounds and many which had far less.

I would love it if the G21 was profoundly robust and reliable—-what is there not to like? Unfortunately, it is not. Based on my personal experiences, as well as what I have observed, a stock Glock 17 or a properly set-up 1911 would be my first two choices for rugged hard use pistols. Weapons are tools; the minute a better pistol is identified, I’ll be recommending that one. For typical relatively low round count LE duty—I’d probably have broader recommendations. If something else works better for you in your situation, then great, but when I must give advice or recommendations for specific requirements, I’ll do so with the best verified information which I can gather.

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