Bad feeling tonight, wish I had my pistol, but in the end it wasn't needed


PDA






Joe7cri
August 13, 2006, 12:25 AM
Let me start out by saying that I live in an Anti-Gun part of NY, but I was able to get a limited CCW and with a couple of loopholes I can carry 24/7 legally. Unfortunately my Job took me into Connecticut tonight, so there was no legal way for me to carry. So here goes.

I finished work around 11:00pm and was headed home when I got hungry so I stopped at McDonalds. While approaching the drive through I notice a man standing in the shadows near some bushes. When I pull up to the window he walks towards my van, and I notice he is obviously homeless. No big deal, but I wasn't in the giving mood tonight, and didn't want to be bothered. So he walks up near my window and begins to try and talk to me and tell me his sob story. Again, no big deal until he puts one hand under his jacket and starts fiddling around with something. At this point I'm reaching behind my seat with one hand to find my bat and hoping he doesn't have a gun. I start thinking if he pulls a gun, I'll hit him with the van. 2 minutes go by, his hand is still in the jacket moving around, my hand is on the handle of my bat, and then my food comes out. I take it and leave, but it doesn't end there. I drive about a mile up the road to a stop and shop Parking lot and begin to eat. 15 minutes later, same guy appears. Now I've had it, but I still didn't want to be confrontational, so luckily I still had my badge from my days as a EMT, I pulled it out and in a firm voice told the guy to leave, and he did rather hastily. I guess I could get into trouble for impersonating a LEO, but everything was OK in the End.

Long Post for a non incident, but it's times like this when I wish there was a National Unrestricted CCW Law. I hope it doesn't come too late:banghead:

If you enjoyed reading about "Bad feeling tonight, wish I had my pistol, but in the end it wasn't needed" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
rangermonroe
August 13, 2006, 01:19 AM
Not to be a dick, but so what? Some homless guy scared you? Why?

Say in a firm, determined voice..."Leave me alone! Right NOW!"

Generally, bums get it.

Grow a pair, they don't issue them with a Kimber.

Rafterman191
August 13, 2006, 01:29 AM
If you are rattled by a homeless guy begging for some change maybe CCW isn't a good idea for you. I carry CCW and would give everything in my possession before I would use my CCW. Do a threat assessment. Use this rule. Protect yourself first with your mind, then your body (i.e leave the situation), then hands, then your CCW.

Taurus 66
August 13, 2006, 01:34 AM
I drive about a mile up the road to a stop and shop Parking lot and begin to eat. 15 minutes later, same guy appears.

1 mile in 15 minutes? That's saying he's walking at a brisk 4 mph. That's at a power walk speed. I wasn't aware bums were so athletic and well fed these days.

If he was fidgeting in his pockets for something and you're without a gun, why the hell would you be reaching for a bat rather than accelerating away from the scene? Does McDonalds food mean that much to you?:confused:

Joe7cri
August 13, 2006, 01:36 AM
Not to be a dick, but so what? Some homless guy scared you? Why?

Say in a firm, determined voice..."Leave me alone! Right NOW!"

Generally, bums get it.

Grow a pair, they don't issue them with a Kimber.

I don't need to grow a pair, I been in plenty of fights and have the scars to prove it. The fact that he was a "bum" didn't scare me, I'm use to them. I'm 6' 295 lbs. and extremely muscular, I don't usually fear anyone. There was just something different about this guy, hard to explain, guess you had to of been there. Sorry I don't have Nightcrawlers writing skills to accurately describe the situation, but believe me this guy will harm someone if not tonight then soon.

As far as being a Dick, Don't worry about it. It's something your born with, you can't help it.

Joe7cri
August 13, 2006, 01:48 AM
If you are rattled by a homeless guy begging for some change

That's part of the problem, he didn't ask for anything (change, food, etc...), he was just kind of looking in the Van and talking about how he was homeless. Unfortunately there are plenty of homeless around here, and they usually ask "can you spare...", not this guy. It was just different. As I said earlier, I don't fear much, but I had a feeling this guy was desperate. I guess it's something that you'd need to experience first hand. Oh Well.

Also, my current occupation combined with the company advertising on my Van makes me much more of a target then the ordinary person.

And no I wasn't about to leave without my food. Like I said, I'm 295 and hungry:D

wdlsguy
August 13, 2006, 09:23 AM
Connecticut can issue you a "Non-resident Permit To Carry Pistols Or Revolvers". According to packing.org, you will need an unrestricted license from any state first. Since you already have a NY license, you can get one from NH or PA.

http://www.packing.org/state/connecticut

atlctyslkr
August 13, 2006, 10:14 AM
Sorry you got slammed by some people on here Joe. You were probably tired from working and this was not something you wanted to deal with. What about the fundamental right to be left alone and go about your business without being harassed? I don't feel the need to pull a gun everytime a stranger talks to me but at 12:25 a.m. you better have good reason.

shooter45
August 13, 2006, 10:37 AM
I think I know what you are saying. If you can't escape, can't run over the BGs, and can't whip them, it feels good to know you have a means to save your life. If that means isn't in your pocket, you feel a little less confident.

Tearlachblair
August 13, 2006, 10:43 AM
If you are rattled by a homeless guy begging for some change maybe CCW isn't a good idea for you. I carry CCW and would give everything in my possession before I would use my CCW.

I wouldn't. :cool:

If you are rattled by a homeless guy begging for some change maybe CCW isn't a good idea for you.

Give me a break here and, most of all, give Joe a break. I was once on a camping trip and had some homeless guy that looks like a psychopath trying to peek in my van and see what I had in there. Joe wasn't scared, he was perceiving a possible threat. Anyone doesn't view a grubby panhandler-type guy as a potential assailant is way underdeveloped in streetsmarts.:neener:

cray
August 13, 2006, 10:46 AM
I think it's safe to say that a significant number of the assaults begin EXACTLY that way ... an unsolicited contact ... and if he returns or is persistent, he's waiting on something. Every such contact should put you on alert. Maybe there's a plan in the works, maybe he sees a "weakness" in you (not you personally); who knows. I think in the end, I'd have wished for my pistol as well (if I didn't have it). If he had pulled out a gun or a knife and was ready and willing to use either one, with all the room you have in the car to swing a bat, you may have done better grabbing your .. _____________ (fill in the blank).

Remember, you always have the option to drive away .. and that would have been preferable to actually shooting the guy, even if you were armed.

highdesert
August 13, 2006, 11:06 AM
I think you got treated a little roughly with your post. Maybe you'd get better advice over at Strategies & Tactics. Your adverse reaction seems pretty reasonable to me, and I've seen homeless people that weren't put off just by a firm "no." A lot of them think they have nothing to lose by being aggressive because you have more to lose in standing up to them physically. I was in NYC a year ago and saw the "in your face til you give me money" technique used a couple of times.

Using your EMT badge probably wasn't the best move during the second encounter, but I can see where you'd be rattled. Driving off (again :( ) would have been a better option. I CCW, but I also started carrying pepper spray for just these sort of dubious encounters.

highdesert

slicknickns
August 13, 2006, 12:11 PM
in a situation like that your fists are a better weapon than a handgun

pax
August 13, 2006, 12:23 PM
Can't tell from your first post -- did you try a very firm, very loud "GO AWAY" before leaving McD's? And then he still followed you and asked again? Or did you just reach for the bat, not saying much of anything, and then drive off when your food got there?

pax

mete
August 13, 2006, 03:21 PM
Wake up ! Some of those "harmless homeless" are very dangerous psychopaths, drunks, on drugs and may be armed!

akodo
August 13, 2006, 03:38 PM
i can't say if this guy was just a bum and you are a scardie cat or if the guy was up to no good and your radar picked it up. Either way it is pretty irrelevant.

you acted correctly by 1) being aware of your surroundings, and 2)leaving the area rather than start trouble.

What I must say is why didn't you start the car and leave a second time once the bum approached again?


Finally, how would your CCW have made you act any different? Would you have pulled it on the bum when you were in McDonalds? Would you have pulled it on the bum when you were eating in your van?

If you had your CCW, the correct actions in all cases would to have been to drive away.

gitarmac
August 13, 2006, 11:36 PM
It's easy to see in hindsight maybe the guy was a harmless bum but then maybe again he wasn't. If you had your CCW you probably wouldn't have felt so vulnerable and not likely to go off half cocked and shoot somebody prematurely as some are implying.

I knew a guy that used his amvets card much in the same way. He was a huge strong guy but for some reason seemed to be a target for drunks with muscles. One time he came upon some "youths" vandalizing something and pulled out his amvets card and said "Stop, amvets!" and they ran off. This was in the early 80's before people had cellphones and stuff.

If most homeless people were harmless then they would be wandering in the safest parts of town.

I don't have a lot of empathy for bums that bother and intimidate others. If you don't want people to get defensive with you then don't act threatening.

davec
August 13, 2006, 11:42 PM
6' 295 lbs. and extremely muscular

lol

You're an NFL defensive tackle?

Geno
August 13, 2006, 11:48 PM
Maybe you did well, maybe you could have done better. Hind sight, right? The day I become perfect, I will tell you how bad you did. At least you didn't eat and drive, thus causing a fatal accident, right? Glass is half full.

Doc2005

Zundfolge
August 13, 2006, 11:51 PM
If you are rattled by a homeless guy begging for some change maybe CCW isn't a good idea for you.

:rolleyes:

I love how some of you guys can tell the difference between a "homeless guy begging" and a mugger using a ruse to get close enough to rob you. I'm sure you'd have completed that Super Bowl winning touchdown pass from your La-Z-Boy too.

Anyone comes close to me after dark and I must assume they intend to do me harm (of course the gun stays in the holster until I have just cause to draw).

MadMercS55
August 13, 2006, 11:52 PM
The bat is good, but perhaps keeping some OC spray in the vehicle for times when a sidearm isn't there. Might help in addition to stern verbal commands to keep away, etc.

cassandrasdaddy
August 13, 2006, 11:55 PM
your alive you did ok
i drove a cab on outskirts of dc in early 80's so did a g/f of mine. she had a fare that freaked her out. she described him to me i pooh poohed her fears. i got same guy a month later got same feeling she did. really bad feeling was real glad to get him outa car. 3 months later he was arrested for a string of killings.
trust your gut. in my case its smarter than the reat of me

gunsmith
August 14, 2006, 12:04 AM
strat and tact...certainly some here need to learn them some tact.
"grow some":barf:

Fighting a NY bum is a sure fire way to get his diseases, you give him a bloody lip and you get his aids, his Hep C, his scabies, lice... you even get his smell on you! (they're really stinky) This aint no time to fistfight:barf:

If you have a beef with a clean cut guy and you're sure he is a "fair fighter" go ahead be all you can be, but I've spent enough time in the NY metro area to know that the last thing I want is some stinky homeless bums blood and snot and ripe sewer smell on me....:barf: :barf: :barf: :barf: :barf:

"grow some"? sophmoric comments don't contribute to the zeitgeist.

BigO01
August 14, 2006, 12:09 AM
I don't know quite how true this is but I have read that over 20 years ago muggers learned to ask to "Borrow" some money or say "can I have" it's just the same as saying give me in practical terms but in the laws eyes all they are doing is asking for a loan or a handout which isn't illegal , they will even do this when there are several of them and one victim so no one but "Blind Justice" would think it is anything but a robbery .

Criminals don't walk around with a stamp on their forehead , as a matter of fact many years ago I saw an interview with a serial killer , looked normal , educated , soft spoken etc. etc. and often was let into his victims home on the pretense of using the phone due to a broken down car . He said he often even accepted offers for coffee or meals before he would reveal his true intentions .

Joe7cri ignore those who have insulted you , if they run around trusting every "Homeless guy" they may not be around to trust anyone much longer .

psyopspec
August 14, 2006, 03:27 AM
I've been through experiences in which visual contact with a bum couldn't tell me if he wanted a big mac, or to slash my throat. In the one case where the latter seemed likely, I didn't feel comfortable telling him to seek his entertainment elsehwere. Luckily, I was moving in a group at the time and one person kept him in conversation while I called 911.

Had I been armed, I wouldn't have been justified in drawing on the guy, nor would I have done so. However, I would have been comforted in knowing that had I needed it, the final option would have been there.

My conclusion: You're alive, so good on you. Since I wasn't there, I say this last part lightly, but if you really knew he could hurt someone in the future, why not alert the authorities?

Joe7cri
August 14, 2006, 03:36 AM
Thanks for the support, and I appreciate everyones opinion and advise.

To answer the question, what would you have done if you had your ccw, I would have done nothing with it. As I said in the post, I wish I had it, but in the end it wasn't needed.

For those of you who believe the homeless are Harmless, read this story:

http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/253940p-217386c.html I'm sure I could find many similar stories if I had the time to look.

I also agree that pepper spray would be ideal in this situation, but It's tough to get here in NY. There are a couple of different laws and they require you to purchase from a Gun Dealer or Pharmacist which often don't carry them because the laws continually change. The ones I have found are the cheap ones which contain only 5% solution.

mrwiggins
August 14, 2006, 03:55 AM
on the internet. condeming people and pointing out grammer mistakes and flaws in speech or situation. why do yall treat and talk to people like that?
quote:
Not to be a dick, but so what? Some homless guy scared you? Why?

Say in a firm, determined voice..."Leave me alone! Right NOW!"

Generally, bums get it.

Grow a pair, they don't issue them with a Kimber

you don't know the situation, don't assume. i can only wonder if the people saying this type of stuff have ever been in a situation.

mrmeval
August 14, 2006, 04:36 AM
Seems a few around here are learning to post the arfcom way. :rolleyes:

Sorry you got slammed by some people on here Joe. You were probably tired from working and this was not something you wanted to deal with. What about the fundamental right to be left alone and go about your business without being harassed? I don't feel the need to pull a gun everytime a stranger talks to me but at 12:25 a.m. you better have good reason.

Steak
August 14, 2006, 06:40 AM
I grew up in Los Angeles, lived in SF for a few years. Used to freaky homeless people on a daily basis. Even the ones who seem threatening, usually are not, unless you act vulnerable. You were in your car. Very safe, just drive away. If on foot, can be a bit more of a problem. I have found that quick movements towards them, and shouting, turns them around real quick. 'Get the f**k out of my face !' usually does the job. They are usually drug-addicts, drunks, and want as little trouble as possible. They can take advantage of tourists and young women, but don't fear sloshed drunk homeless dudes in the middle of the night. They scare easily. Even if armed, it would take a lot for me to brandish that weapon. It can open up a whole new can of worms.
Of course there are always situations where you just know something is wrong, and you need to leave right away, but wishing for your gun just because of a drunk bum coming near you, seems extreme. They usually follow you so you give them money to go away. They are most productive that way.
As an afterthought, I think it is VERY unlikely that drunken bums are packing. These guys are usually hardcore addicts, and sold any gun they might have had for crack long ago. Of course you cannot trust that to be the case, but I would think it rare for these types to be packing.

Joe7cri
August 14, 2006, 07:50 AM
Steak, I never said this guy was drunk, and as far as I could tell he wasn't.

Also, I felt at a disadvantage being inside my van. If he pulled a knife, he could have stabbed me through the window, before I could move away. I would have a better chance fighting off an attack while standing and being able to move around freely.

Next, I never said anything about brandishing a weapon, I said I would have liked to have it with me. You need to learn never to pull a weapon unless you intend to use it.

Finally, If you don't think homeless are dangerous and packing, read the link in my last post. I know it's unlikely that most homeless are armed, but tell that to the family of Jimmy Gaviglia. Actually, Let just post the story for everyone to read.

TEARS FOR A SLAIN DAD

'Went to God doing good,' says priest

BY RALPH R. ORTEGA
DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITER

Theresa Gaviglia weeps as coffin bearing husband, Jimmy, is carried outside Sacred Heart of Jesus Church in Glendale, Queens.

The 38-year-old city bridge painter, killed by homeless man Nov. 10, leaves behind three daughters, including his youngest, 6-year-old Jessica.
The widow of a city worker senselessly slain by a homeless man leaned over his coffin to give him one last kiss yesterday before he was carried out of a Queens funeral home to a church nearby.
Shortly after the moment of intimate agony, Theresa Gaviglia shared her suffering with more than 100 somber loved ones at a Mass at Sacred Heart of Jesus Church in Glendale, Queens.

"Jimmy, from the day I met you, I knew I would love you forever," she said. "I have so much pain in my heart. I can't believe I lost you.

"My heart will never heal, Jimmy," she said, as friends and family members cried, listening to the painful words directed at her husband's gray coffin.

Police say Jimmy Gaviglia, a 38-year-old paint crew worker, was gunned down by Steven Boyd, a delusional homeless man who had accepted a sandwich and $5 from his victim a week earlier. Jimmy Gaviglia was working under the Grand Central Parkway, near Boyd's camp.

The shooting shocked New Yorkers, prompting some - including the Daily News - to help pay for his funeral.

"He was the most loving person I ever knew," said Jimmy Gaviglia's cousin Lauren Lekoski. "He would always be the one to be there to lend a helping hand."

Like his widow, Jimmy Gaviglia's mother grappled with her grief during the earlier, private farewell at the George Werst Funeral Home in Glendale.

"My poor son! My poor grandchildren! My heart is breaking!" Marie Lekoski cried as relatives filed past the coffin surrounded by roses and carnations.

With Jimmy Gaviglia was a picture of his daughters - Danielle, 16; Alyssa, 9, and Jessica, 6 - tucked under the lapel of his suit.

"I'll always remember him," Danielle said after she asked to keep a wooden cross, rosary and silk roses from the coffin.

At the Mass, Theresa Gaviglia read from a letter written by Alyssa in which the little girl told her father that she loved him and that, "I would like to beat the person up that did this to you."

The Rev. John Fullum found significance that Jimmy Gaviglia's life was taken by a man he had tried to help.

"James had a heart for this person," Fullum said. "He went to God doing good. He went to God showing love.

"I don't see how God could have any problems with James."

antsi
August 14, 2006, 08:34 AM
I can understand being disturbed by this situation. With many homeless people, their behavior is disorganized and bizarre. It's hard to "read" them because they're not sending or receiving signals according to the same cues everyone else uses. They don't necessarily have the same rational processing of actions and consequences that prevent most of the rest of us from attacking each other on an impulse. When they want money from you, they are often pushy and persist on getting into your space even after it would be clear to most people their advance is not welcome - these aggressive type cues do put people on their guard for a possible fight, and legitimately so.

I would be on my guard in the situation described. I wouldn't have pulled my gun and started blazing away, but Joe didn't say that's what he wanted to do either. It is definitely a situation where I would be glad I had my gun "just in case," and that's pretty much what I read from Joe's post.

Superpsy
August 14, 2006, 09:27 AM
i think all in all it was a good situation to be wary of...

gunsmith
August 14, 2006, 10:29 AM
we would take over empty bulidings in NYC and fix themup as good as possible for our limited means. A few movies were filmed in them ..."batteries not included" was one as well as some shoot em ups, when they needed dangerous looking locations in NY they chose our squats.
We would invite area homeless to live there and I feel I have tons more experience with the homeless then most here.
One of those homeless was NY's famous Daniel Rackowitz who chopped up two young women and fed them to the other homeless in Tompins square park, he offered me some food at various times but I had learned not to trust him & didn't take it.
I also lived in SF for over 15 years, I can safely say I have a black belt in dealing with the homeless.
I think they need help, for sure, but that doesn't mean that I seek a vocation as a social worker.
Only a few are criminally insane, & a few more are just plain stupid criminals.
Most are junkies and alky's and most have communicable diseases the best tactic is to stay away and not to engage.
The NY & SF variety are a real bother because they take offense at every percived and imagined snub, & will often harass you.

I too, tell them firmly to keep away ...but I have often had to back it up with bear guardian pepper spray and a BUG.

Lennyjoe
August 14, 2006, 10:57 AM
Joe, don't let a few knuckleheads here deter you from future posts.

Like you, I had a run in with a homeless guy and it put me in an odd position. I had to extend my hand, tell him to come no closer and after that failed I reached for my weapon. He got the point real quick and retreated. Didn't have to remove my CCW from the holster but it wasn't far from coming out. Thing is, I let him get too close before I reacted. Won't do that again.

Situational awareness is key to survival. Learn from your experience, evaluate what you could of done different or better and then apply that to your everyday life.

Live and learn.

BTW, thanks for the article. Maybe others will think twice before posting.;)

dfaugh
August 14, 2006, 01:07 PM
I can't believe people on this board dinged you for being on "high alert"...Yes, it probably wasn;t a truly threatening situation...But it could well have turned into one. Letting your guard down is simply inviting a problem at some point.

See my thread here: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=215687

Better to be wary than to not be.

Vitamin G
August 14, 2006, 01:41 PM
Most of the homeless I've come to know (Yeah, it was an assignment in my senior year of college for sociology. Looking back, I can only imagine the liability the professor assumed...) were pretty antisocial. Not "anti-social" in the common usage of the word as "I don't like to be around people", but the traditional psychological antisocial of "I can hurt people or animals and not feel bad about it" lack of conscience. And I'm only in Pittsburgh. I can imagine what bigger anonymous cities would be like.
I've found lately that "Sorry, I always pay by debit card. I don't have any cash." works pretty well in terms of giving people the hint to move onto a better target. I think it works because its totally believable in society today. Come to think of it, I'm probably telling the truth about half the time.

NineseveN
August 14, 2006, 04:34 PM
While my experience is not professional such as Vitamin G's, I can vouch for the ferocity of the Pittsburgh homeless...they're not to be taken lightly. There are a number of them simply down on their luck, but we have some real bad homeless hombres out there.

I do always pay by debit card and never carry cash unless I am forced to, so I'm not even lying when I say that kind of thing.


And for those giving the OP a hard time and insulting him, not very THR-like, some folks need to learn some manners. :rolleyes:

psyopspec
August 14, 2006, 05:11 PM
I can understand being disturbed by this situation. With many homeless people, their behavior is disorganized and bizarre. It's hard to "read" them because they're not sending or receiving signals according to the same cues everyone else uses. They don't necessarily have the same rational processing of actions and consequences that prevent most of the rest of us from attacking each other on an impulse.

Well said. I should add that at the conclusion of my bad encounter, the man was arrested on prior warrants, but before he was taken to jail they had to stop at detox. I did a brief stint as a hospital security guard, and while I can't tell you the medical term for it, a meth-head can indeed become unpredictably violent at anytime. It's always wise to keep your eyes open.

If you enjoyed reading about "Bad feeling tonight, wish I had my pistol, but in the end it wasn't needed" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!