"The Turner Diaries" hurts our cause....


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StrikeFire83
August 14, 2006, 04:57 AM
So I stumbled on this piece of inexcusable racist filth (The Turner Diaries) on the internet this morning and was appalled to learn that it has been and continues to be sold at gun shows with some frequency.

The fact that McVeigh sold the book at his gunshow table and based his crimes on the book is bad enough, but the fact that William Pierce would try to co-opt the struggle to keep firearms ownership legal into his racist Nazi fantasy world disgusts me.

I’m glad this “novel” remains in print, because it forces us to remember that neo-Nazism and Klan garbage is still clinging to life in this country.

I think it is our duty as good men (and women) to decry this piece of trash and confront those who would accuse the gun community of being like the villainous caricatures who populate The Turner Diaries.

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Liberal Gun Nut
August 14, 2006, 05:11 AM
I support free speech and all, but gun shows are commercial events, run as a business. Surely the business that runs them could set some standards of what can be sold there? Having the Turner Diaries at gun shows confirms the worst stereotypes. Also the Nazi stuff and the WWII "historical" stuff and Wehrmacht "collectibles" should not be there. Let them have all that garbage in their own show.

Just like a shopping mall makes very careful decisions about which businesses it allows in, shouldn't a gun show be able to do the same thing?

kengrubb
August 14, 2006, 05:17 AM
On another thread (http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=2605035&postcount=43), Stauffenberg quoted Michael Douglas (Foster) in Falling Down (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0106856/) to Frederic Forrest (Nick the Nazi).

"We are not the same. I'm an American. You're a sick a**hole."

Totalitarian movements tend to favor the right to individual arms--up until the point they obtain power.

beerslurpy
August 14, 2006, 05:18 AM
I've never seen anything like that at a gun show. Then again, I dont hang out at the confederate belt buckle and beef jerky table so I probably would have missed it if it was there. I'm usually looking for magazine and ammo bargains. Sadly my gun show visits are at an end until I become gainfully employed again.

Finch
August 14, 2006, 05:25 AM
At any gunshow I've been to (only Las Vegas one's) they clearly say on their table rental agreement that the sale or promotion of hate based material and products are forbidden. Although they do exclude objects that could be of historical value, such as Nazi war medals and the like.

kengrubb
August 14, 2006, 05:30 AM
Just like a shopping mall makes very careful decisions about which businesses it allows in, shouldn't a gun show be able to do the same thing?
They can, and some do. Silverado (http://www.silveradogunshow.com/) doesn't let that stuff in. I don't believe WAC (http://www.washingtonarmscollectors.org/) does either.

Personally, I don't see a problem with WWII and Wehrmacht collectibles. I similarly don't see a problem owning a Civil War era firearm that was owned and used by a Confederate.

Reproduction Nazi collectibles strike me as clearly associating oneself with Nazism.

Authentic Nazi items from WWII while collectible are still associated with something abhorrent. If one owned it under the auspices of having a "trophy" from a conquered idealology, then why not own an authentic Klan hood. I cannot see myself owning either.

crazed_ss
August 14, 2006, 05:39 AM
Gun shows here are pretty lame. Probably because all sales, even private ones, have to go through FFLs and have background checks and such. Last gun show I went to had a bunch of Nazi stuff.

Liberal Gun Nut
August 14, 2006, 06:06 AM
Personally, I don't see a problem with WWII and Wehrmacht collectibles. I similarly don't see a problem owning a Civil War era firearm that was owned and used by a Confederate.

WWII collectibles from the Allies, I have no problem with. I personally am not interested in them, but cool, they were from the right side. The Allies were fighting against totalitarianism (tenuous alliance with Stalin aside).

Wehrmacht collectibles are another thing entirely. They are coded symbols for not just "interest in WWII history", but identification with one particular side and one particular ideology, and ideology of evil. Sort of like how, in modern Germany people are not allowed to admire the Nazis, so they have code words like Dresden, or symbols or images to identify themselves with the Nazis. That's what these Wehrmacht collectibles are, in my view, and if I had any say in it, they would be banned from gun shows and from GunBroker. Let them have their own Nazi Gun Show and NaziCollectibleBay.com site if they want to.

Not only are these things abhorent in their own right, but, as I said above, they confirm the worst stereotypes about gun owners.

And on the business side of things, I stopped going to gun shows long ago when I saw those horrible Wehrmacht "collectible" tables. So they lost me and my friends as customers.

Cromlech
August 14, 2006, 06:56 AM
There is such a thing as genuine historical interest, you know.

Maybe somebody has an extensive collection of WWII memorabilia from many different countries, should they leave out some of the beautifully crafted German items, simply because there is a taboo associated with them?

If you don't like those people who have their house adorned with SS, Gestapo and other Nazi 'decor', fine don't go there or associate with them. Craploads of buildings in my home city of Bristol were bombed during the blitz in WWII, does that mean that I shouldn't collect Luftwaffe memorabilia? Not that I do.

Should people not collect 19th Century United States Army memorabilia on account of the displacement of thousands of Native Americans?

Selfdfenz
August 14, 2006, 08:17 AM
Per the original post: Never read The Turner Diaries but based on comments made by many I'm not sure the world would miss the The Turner Diaries if all the copies of it disappeared overnight. Since I don't plan on ever reading it I could care less. I don't go to gunshows to buy reading material.

One comment on the Nazi uniforms and badges:
I've always kind of eyeballed the people on both sides of those tables with the idea in the back of my mind they were kooks until I attended a combination gun/militaria show where one of the booths that several complete WWII German uniforms on display.

I was fascinated to look at that display and to think my Dad had looked at men dressed the same way across a set of gun sites while they were doing the same. The same display had some complete examples of US battle dress, one of which I recognized as being my Dad's WWII unit right down to the boots.

All the uniforms seemed so small.

I still think some of the people that trade Nazi stuff are kooks but seeing those uniforms side-by-side sort of changed my perspective on the whole issue.

S-

orangelo
August 14, 2006, 10:51 AM
They can sell whatever they like at their tables. Doesn't mean I'm gonna spend a single cent on their products however.

Display nazi flags and stuff in a non-historical manner and I pretty much take my Class 3 sized wallet to another table and spend it there instead.

ilbob
August 14, 2006, 11:08 AM
I have read the Turner Diaries. It is an angry, mean spirited book. Parts of it are hard to read. Other parts are quite fascinating as it gives you an insight into a sub-culture you probably never knew existed.

It is written at maybe a junior high school reading level, which can make it maddening to read at points. That may (or may not) tell you something about the intended audience.

I don't see that collecting war memorabilia from any side of a war is inherently bad. History is history. Keep in mind that world communism killed far more people than the Nazis ever dreamed of. I don't see any effort to ban Soviet, Red Chinese, or North Korean war memorabilia.

I am not inclined to ban anything that does not directly harm some other person. If you want to goose step down the street in your black SS style uniform, it will not bug me one bit, because I will not be there to watch.

I find it somewhat ironic that we have gun owners that want to ban WW2 German military artifacts but can't understand why evil black rifles are feared by some in the gun control camp. They are all just inanimate objects, and ought to be treated that way.

Bruce H
August 14, 2006, 11:16 AM
Freedom can be a harsh mistress. Nobody is forcing anyone else to buy and read the material. If everybody gets a choice of what to not have around there would be a lot less things in the world. I've seen this material at gun shows and have never had the proprietor grab me and force me to read it.

ilbob
August 14, 2006, 11:22 AM
Freedom can be a harsh mistress. Nobody is forcing anyone else to buy and read the material. If everybody gets a choice of what to not have around there would be a lot less things in the world. I've seen this material at gun shows and have never had the proprietor grab me and force me to read it.

Some of the stuff from the John Birch Society is not much better. Just written in a less inflammatory way. And they are at a fair number of gun shows.

I have noticed lately they make an effort to disguise themselves though. Nothing at the table says JBS. They admit it if you ask them point blank, but otherwise you might never know.

Thin Black Line
August 14, 2006, 11:37 AM
Unfortunately, this is one of the warts that our 1st amendment allows on
our national body.

HankB
August 14, 2006, 11:54 AM
I inherited a number of Japanese collectibles - rifle, swords, flags, periscope - from my father who gathered them as war trophies on the field of battle during WWII. I see nothing wrong with keeping them for what they represent - tangible reminders of the triumph of good over evil. I can see how some people could develop an interest in collecting some of this stuff, though I'm not personally interested in war relics collected by strangers.

Same goes for most German/Wehrmacht/Nazi battle-related stuff . . . which does not include modern imitations, the Turner Diaries, any Aryan Nations crap, or anything that glorifies Nazis, death camps, or implies Hitler was right. :barf:

(If you believe the Nazis were worse than the Japanese, I suggest you google the "Rape of Nanking" and "Bataan Death March" for a start.)

For those who assert they won't own anything associated with evil, I assume you don't own any rifles with Mauser actions, Lugers or P-38s, nor SKSs, AK-clones, or stuff coming from any other parts of the world associated with evil. (If you're strict, you could add New York, Massachusettes, Maryland, Illinois, and California to your "don't buy or own stuff from bad places or people" list.)

Sindawe
August 14, 2006, 12:58 PM
Freedom can be a harsh mistress.Well said Sir, well said.

I've seen The Turner Diaries for sale at a couple of gun shows now and then, usually along side other texts. Some in the same vein, some not. While I've no desire to read it, its presence at gun shows bothers me not one iota.

Same goes with Nazi, Imperial Japan or even Soviet memorabilia, whether authentic or reproduction. The authentic stuff has historical value and in my view the reproductions are on the same level as reproductions of ancient Roman artifacts.

While I do not actively collect such artifacts, I've a few items that I've purchased just cause they strike my fancy on an atheistic level. My den has hanging on its walls the Naval Ensign of Imperial Japan and the Confederate Navy Jack of 1863-1865. My favored historical peice though is an authentic Reichs mark minted in 1937 that has been saw cut around the eagle on the face.

The-Fly
August 14, 2006, 01:18 PM
I've never seen any outright nazi type garbage at the shows I've attended. I do see the John Bircher's regularly, and think they are way out in right field so to speak. Oh well, free country and all that.

geekWithA.45
August 14, 2006, 01:23 PM
I think there are fundamental distinctions to be made between gun culture, war memorabilia, and the infantile white supremacist's wish fulfillment fantasy that is the Turner Diaries.

+1 on the Falling Down quote.

asdaf
August 14, 2006, 03:26 PM
I have read the Turner Diaries and they leave you feeling as if you've been covered with a thick layer of slime by the time you're finished. But right after I finished I went out and bought my own copy. (Used, I didn't want any more royalty payments getting back to Pierce.) Now, as a liberal who opposes gun control, I offer it as a loan to anybody who will read it. I outline the real crimes; murder, robbery, and terrorism, associated with those who take the book as gospel. I try to drop in a mention of the racist origins of much modern gun control law. When they return it to me I tell them how I found it impossible to read the "Day of the Rope" scene without wanting to pull a few items out of the gunlocker. They chuckle and usually agree at which point I extend an invitation to go and try shooting. I have an %80-90 success rate with some gentle cajoling. Of the people who go there is always a reduction in hoplophobia and a few have become genuine converts.

It is foolish of anybody who is trying to win the political battle over gun control to associate themselves with Pierce and his evil crowd so if it were my gun show that stuff would be out the door. If its worth the damage to your primary cause to make a little more money it's a free country I guess. Personally it is convenient when your opponent writes your own propaganda for you. And remember- You can't consider yourself truly left-wing untill you get an AK-47.

Liberal Gun Nut
August 14, 2006, 03:34 PM
Freedom can be a harsh mistress. Nobody is forcing anyone else to buy and read the material. If everybody gets a choice of what to not have around there would be a lot less things in the world. I've seen this material at gun shows and have never had the proprietor grab me and force me to read it.

Freedom isn't always that harsh. Gun show organizers have the freedom to say no to businesses they don't want there. Should Nazis be able to get parade permits, or permits to hold their own Nazi gun shows? Absolutely! They are welcome to do that. I think it would make business (and moral) sense for operators of mainstream gun shows to ban all that stuff from their shows.

FreedomKommando
August 14, 2006, 03:38 PM
Last time I went to a gun show at the George R. Brown Convention Center (http://www.houstonconventionctr.com/)here in Houston, there was some guy selling Nazi **** at this table, flying the swastika. As I walked past, I saw him in conversation with another guy who stopped to check out his wares. All I heard was a snippet of the conversation, the guy behind the table saying, "I'm not saying that some Jews didn't get killed, but..."

Obvisouly he's a Holocaust denier who sells Nazi "memorabilia" and recruits for some neo-Nazi outfit. The organizers of the gun show - NOT the state - should forbid that kind of filth.

Liberal Gun Nut
August 14, 2006, 04:08 PM
Yes, the show is a private business. If I had a shopping mall, would I allow Nazis to sell Wehrmacht "collectibles"? No, it's morally bad and bad for business. They can, and should do the same at gun shows.

Take a look at this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHRqe9L56t4

That's the stereotype many urban liberal Jews have of gun owners. It's not true. But selling that crap at gun shows provides confirmation of the stereotype. Let the Nazis have their own show.

444
August 14, 2006, 04:11 PM
I read the book.
I don't remember that much about it. If you don't like it, don't read it (you obviously DID read it however). I read a lot of stuff I don't agree with. I watch a lot of stuff on TV that I don't agree with. I engage in conversation with people I don't agree with. I don't think any of them should be banned.
If I remember correctly, the Nazis were the ones usually associated with book burning. The concept is the same no matter how self righteous you are.

I don't consider myself racist. That being said the most racist things I have ever heard come from the mouths of African/Americans on a daily basis. They say things that I would be tarred and feathered for. The join and support many openly racist oganizations from black colleges to black book stores, to black clubs to black football conferences, to black television networks to what have you. Good friends of mine that happen to be black make statements at work that are so racist that I would be fired if I made similar statements about them. Obviously racisim knows no borders and I don't think that the racist speech, music, organizations, or television networks supported by black Americans should be banned either.
I do however think that many Americans need to punch into reality and realize that just because the person isn't a WASP they can and are racist. And the fact that they arn't white doesn't make it right or acceptable.

As far as "hurting our cause", I don't think it matters. People are going to think what they are going to think. Rational, sensible people realize that they can't stereotype people. The idea that if only we act a certain way or if we only say certain things or if we only own certain types of guns that the antis will realize we are great people is a flawed idea. They don't like us and there is nothing we are going to do to change it.

GW
August 14, 2006, 04:23 PM
I disagree
Let the market decide
Reprehensible as Turner Diaries may be, they will go the way of the dodo if nobody buys them.
Attempt to ban them and people will buy them just to see what the fuss is all about.
This book thrives on controversy and the best way to kill it is to ignore it

444
August 14, 2006, 04:28 PM
"Attempt to ban them and people will buy them just to see what the fuss is all about. "

By the way, this is the reason I bought a copy and read it. Any book that has a big "fuss" made about it is something that I have to aquire.

shield20
August 14, 2006, 04:38 PM
When I 1st got into ebay a while ago, I stocked up on lots of US ww2 collectibles - naturally went with my M1s and M1 carbines, bayonets, knives etc. Well a guy at work (who is German) picked up a Nazi stereographic book - and it was pretty cool as collectibles go. I bought a few myself, and also got into the stamp albums, nazi daggers, Lufftwaffe items, etc. The propaganda stuff they put out back then was amazing, as were the daggers and other arms, and are actually historically interesting.

Then I watched Life is Beautiful, and was reminded of what exactly all that nazi stuff led to - I couldn't sell it fast enough.

Lobotomy Boy
August 14, 2006, 05:27 PM
I read "The Turner Diaries" to see what the book is about. The above descriptions are pretty accurate--infantile white-supremicist fantasy that makes you feel covered in slime when finished--but I'm glad I read it. It gave me a look inside a world view I didn't understand before, and it also made me realize why so many people seem to view gun owners in such a negative light. It's made me more effective when arguing with anti-gunners if nothing else.

Oleg Volk
August 14, 2006, 05:59 PM
I can't afford authentic Nazi/Soviet items but have a regular need for them as photo props. I am all for keeping them available at guns shows and elsewhere.

StrikeFire83
August 14, 2006, 07:21 PM
I would ask you fellas NOT to put words in my mouth.

It seems a bit of clarification is in order. If you look at my original post, NEVER did I say that The Turner Diaries should in any way be BANNED. Read what I said. Iíll say it again. Iím glad this book is still in print, as it presents a window into the diseased psyche of the small yet still present white supremacist / neo-Nazi community in this country.

I merely said that responsible gun show organizers who care about the fight to keep and bear arms would do well to keep this garbage OUT of their shows as it reflects poorly and reinforces media stereotypes about gun owners.

As for this odd necessity to collect and display Nazi war ďmemorabilia,Ē people should do what they want. The only Nazi stuff a non-Nazi should have, in my opinion, is that which he (or a relative) took as a souvenir off of a freshly killed German soldier.

The original intent of this threat was to state that as good men and responsible gun owners itís our duty to speak out against this **** when we encounter it.

wingnutx
August 14, 2006, 07:28 PM
I have seen this at X-roads gunshows. At least the last one I went to didn't have the nazi-flag booth. It did have a guy who sold klan shirts, along with a lot of different shirts.

The flag guy really bothered me. You couldn't miss it as soon as you set foot in the door.

Nothing like taking an open-minded fence-sitter to their first gun show, and the first thing they see is a gigantic swastika.

another okie
August 14, 2006, 07:33 PM
If you really cared about this issue you would say something to the people that run the gun shows.

Liberal Gun Nut
August 14, 2006, 07:42 PM
Nothing like taking an open-minded fence-sitter to their first gun show, and the first thing they see is a gigantic swastika.

Exactly. I agree with Oleg: there are legit reasons to own this stuff, like for photo props or legitimate family war relics, but I hate seeing them at gun shows, they are vile, and they do damage to the image of gun owners.

And I'm 100% with StrikeFire. None of these things should be banned. They should all be legal. But businesses (like gun shows and Ebay and GunBroker) have discretion about what they allow and what they don't, and they should exercise that discretion.

tellner
August 14, 2006, 08:27 PM
I've seen plenty of Nazi crap at gun shows over the last fifteen years. I'm not talking about WWII souvenirs or reproduction Hitler Youth pocket knives. I mean "The Bible for Christians and Racists", "The Turner Diaries", and all manner of evil filth damning the "Mud People" and the *shudder* Jews, preaching the inate superiority of the "White Race" and calling for the extinction of the first two and the deification of the last. Serpent's Walk, WCC, ANP, CoJCC, Resistance Records, British Israelism, NV, Hammerskins, choose your poison. Seen 'em all selling the diseased products of their depraved auto-eroticism.

"Let the Market decide!" What garbage. The Market isn't G-d Almighty. It's an abstraction of the human tendency to buy and sell stuff. If you choose it as your arbiter of morality you have a conscience that most closely resembles cheese-cloth. Now, I am better than them, so I don't advocate rounding them up, sending them to camps and exterminating them. But I do believe that people who spout this sewage are more likely than your average American to dangerous to the people around them. I don't trust them and think that law enforcement needs to be aware of what they do and come down on them with the Big Hammer when they engage in acts of terrorism.

And, frankly, if it doesn't bother you then you, personally, and I'll say it to your face, are a vicious soulless bastard. At best. And people like you who consider people like me subhuman are precisely the reason I own repeating firearms and vigorously defend my right to keep and bear them.

This stuff is pure, undadultered evil.

Let's face what Al Gore would call An Inconvenient Truth. People do not become paranoid and hate-filled because they own guns. But people who are already paranoid and motivated by hatred and rage are almost certain to acquire them if they can. That means you'll find a fair share of racist and Nazi scum at places like gun shows and among the community that owns weapons.

Does this mean that most gun owners are like this? Hell, no. The overwhelming majority of gun owners are good people just like the overwhelming majority of all people. But every group has its particular evils. The presence of the Nazi / Klan / "racialist" types is one of our particular crosses to bear. If we tolerate that kind of filth just because they share one particular thing with us - an attraction to firearms - we deserve whatever scorn and abuse the rest of the country heaps on us for associating with them.

Think of it this way. Himmler raised organic chickens. Idi Amin liked cameras. Khomeini enjoyed medieval Sufi poetry (even though he had Sufis stoned as heretics). That does not mean that anyone who buys free-range boilers is in the SS or that the collection of Rumi - who was loved by Jews, Christians and Muslims - on my shelf means that I support the big-bearded, black-turbanned sociopaths. But if Nikon said "Doctor, Field Marshal, President for Life Idi Amin likes our products, so we support him wholeheartedly" or health food stores excused the SS because its founder ate the same sort of food, a decent person would start looking askance at them.

MidnightRambler
August 14, 2006, 08:41 PM
Alot of that stuff hurts our cause. There used to be a booth at the Indy 1500 show that sold Nazi "collectibles." They were basically coffee mugs, and shirts, etc with images of Hitler, Goerring, Goebbels, etc on them. Pretty disgusting to me. Fortunately, practically nobody ever visited the booths so they stopped coming to our show.

Yes, people have freedom of speech but we also need to realize junk like this are some of the reasons jerks like Michael Moore get away with insinuating NRA members align themselves with the KKK.

Hkmp5sd
August 14, 2006, 08:46 PM
I collect military memoribilia. That includes Confederate, Nazi, Japanese, North Korean, Red China, North Vietnam and the USSR. I collect the same from the so-called "good" countries of the US, Britain, France, Canada, etc. I'm a history buff and they are nothing more than pieces of history. It is a branch from my firearm collecting as I also collect military firearms.

I see nothing wrong with reproductions either. Given the cost and rarity of authentic pieces, it is sometimes necessary to use a reproduction to complete a given set. I collect weapons of all types like ancient Egyptian daggers. Until the Egyptian Museum loans me a few, the only ones I can get are reproductions. The same with Viking swords and shields. The Smithsonian just won't hand over a few real ones.

It seems hypocritical to me for people to justify collect German military firearms from WWII and then condemn the collecting of other Nazi items. The only reason they justify it is because they want the gun very badly, more than their claim to detest the Nazis. It's either all or nothing, no fence riding. If you are going to complain about my SS daggers, make sure there are no WWII 98k's in your safe.

QuickDraw
August 14, 2006, 09:08 PM
I find it somewhat ironic that we have gun owners that want to ban WW2 German military artifacts but can't understand why evil black rifles are feared by some in the gun control camp. They are all just inanimate objects, and ought to be treated that way.
Bingo!

GW
August 14, 2006, 09:15 PM
I merely said that responsible gun show organizers who care about the fight to keep and bear arms would do well to keep this garbage OUT of their shows as it reflects poorly and reinforces media stereotypes about gun owners.

Which means you're in favor of banning these books. You want the gun show promoters to ban them from the only venue I have ever heard of them being available at.

tellner
August 14, 2006, 09:39 PM
GW, Quickdraw, this isn't the government "banning" their publication. It's a private group deciding that its reputation or image will be badly damaged by association with sedition, murder, hatred and evil.

They have the right to print it and sell it. They have the right to order swastikas and "Wank-a-long with 'Dolf" CDs of the Horst Wessel song from Chinese factories to show the superiority of Caucasians. I have the right to call them what they are and do everything in my power to prevent private groups from offering them a platform. Someone wants to sell an SS battle flag? Cool. Will I do business with him? No. Will most decent people? Probably not. Does his presence at a gun show make us look like everything the antis say we are? Uh-huh. If he adds "I heart Reynhard Heydrich" coffee mugs and "Rahowa!" bumper stickers does it confirm that suspicions. Yes indeedy.

If you are right and this is the only venue where this sort of filth and the scum who peddle it are to be found, well, that certainly says something about us as a group.

Tokugawa
August 14, 2006, 09:53 PM
I hate Nazi's. Every damn kind of nazi. But I love my Nazi daggers.-- Cause my father in law took 'em from nazi's who had no more use for them.... They were confiscated under rule 30.06.

StrikeFire83
August 14, 2006, 10:01 PM
Hkmp5sdYou'd do well read my original post and its follow up. I started this thread because I'd seen "The Turner Diaries" at numerous gun shows and others had as well. I didn't know what it was until yesterday when I finally read the racist piece of crap. Nowhere did I say anything about Nazi war "collectibles" and their purchase/ownership. Sure, itís a bit odd to see an ******* dressed to the nines in a Waffen SS uniform selling Hitler medals and whatever else they hawk. If you want to buy Hitler youth knives, Nazi coins, plates, extruded golden teeth, human skin lampshades, whatever, thatís your business. Let me say it again, so everybody will understand.

1. I donít think that The Turner Diaries should be banned. Our beloved 1st Amendment protects all speech and media, from porno to the genocidal Neo-Nazi wet dream rant that is The Turner Diaries.

2. I donít think the trade in World War II relics should be banned, or even excised from gun shows.

3. We are fighting a war of mass opinion here.

You can stick your head in the sand and deny it all you want, but the future of gun rights in this country depend not only on the clearly stated language of the Constitution but on convincing people that the civilian possession of firearms is a necessary, noble, and essential civil right. Selling copies of the Neo-Nazi, white supremacist Bible at gun shows, the most publicized and scrutinized of transfers, is a stupid idea.

GW, an organized BAN is very different from what you describe. You can buy the Turner Diaries for less than $10 on Amazon.com, or FREE online at Nazi websites. Thatís where I read it. Choosing NOT to sell something does not a ban make, senior.

Liberal Gun Nut
August 14, 2006, 10:30 PM
I find it somewhat ironic that we have gun owners that want to ban WW2 German military artifacts but can't understand why evil black rifles are feared by some in the gun control camp. They are all just inanimate objects, and ought to be treated that way.

WRONG. You are misreading what people are saying on this thread. NO ONE in this thread has advocated banning these items. We've just been saying that gun shows (which are private businesses) should not allow them. I have a private business, and I exercise discretion over what I sell and what I don't sell. If I wanted to, I could sell whale meat and rape porn and malt liquor, but I choose not to. I'm not advocating that those things be banned, I'm just making a choice, as a business, of what I want to sell and what I don't want to sell. These gun shows can do the same thing.

NO ONE on this thread is endorsing a ban. A ban would mean passing a law that makes this stuff illegal to buy or sell. They have bans like that in much of Europe. I'm not in favor of that.

When Ebay exluded guns, it caused a market for their banned items, which resulted in GunBroker. Great! If mainstream gun shows exclude Nazi crap it will create a market for Nazi Gun Shows. Excellent! Let them have their own tiny show to go with their tiny body parts.

When they show up at mainstream gun shows it makes them economically viable. If they were kept out of mainstream gun shows, they would not be economically viable. Their only option would be Internet sales. Good!

Again, this is all free market. Part of a free market is that businesses are free to decide what they sell and who their partners are. Gun shows are businesses.

It's strange that such a pro-freedom group as this thinks that a business declining to allow sales of certain items inside their show is somehow anti-freedom. If I walk into a vegetarian restaurant, I can't insist that they serve me meat; it's their choice. If I want meat, I go to some other restaurant. Same thing here.

fjolnirsson
August 14, 2006, 10:57 PM
Ya know, I couldn't care less about the Turner Diaries being sold at gun shows. I've heard enough about the book to know I'd find it disgusting. Doesn't stop me from considering a copy now and then, simply because of the controversy. People who judge gun owners and shows by the book being sold there have already made up their minds, IMO.
Just a bit of thread drift here. It really burns my posterior to see a symbol of my faith degraded and abused the way the Nazis did the swastika and the Sowilo rune. Two major symbols of my faith, and I would be looked at as filth if I walked the street wearing them. There are places it could get me thrown in jail.
For those of you who are unaware of the history of these two symbols, please take the time to research them. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika#Pre-Christian_European_traditions

There's more I could say about Confederate and Nazi memorabilia, and lumping them together, but I don't feel like inciting a flame war, and I'd like to get my post in before the thread gets closed.

Lobotomy Boy
August 14, 2006, 11:18 PM
I'm fascinated with Nazi Germany and read at least a dozen history books per year on the subject. My fascination in part springs from the fact that I see striking similarities between the National Socialist leadership and our current executive administration. I'm not saying that the Bush administration is full of genocidal Nazis--I'm just saying that Rove is well versed in certain political tactics used by people like Joseph Goebbels to great success. I also see a striking similarity between Hitler's relationship with his generals and the Bush Neocons relationships with their generals. Ultimately I think Iraq will be our Operation Barbarossa.

I'm especially interested in the relationship between Erwin Rommel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erwin_Rommel)and Hitler. Rommel was one of the greatest military minds of the 20th century. Hitler, in contrast, had one of the weaker military minds of that century (much like the Bush/Rumsfeld/Cheney trioka, if you ask me). Fortunately for us, Hitler didn't like what Rommel had to tell him so he found his very own Tommy Franks-style yes men, old poofs like Goerring who led Nazi Germany into ruin (for which we should all thank whatever god we worship). I'm so intriqued by Rommel that I'd like to get a bumper sticker that read: "WWRD?" ("What Would Rommel Do?")

Trouble is, I doubt many would see the irony or historical signifigance of that. They'd just think I was a Nazi, which I most definitely am not.

Hkmp5sd
August 15, 2006, 02:00 AM
StrikeFire83,

I wasn't directing my post toward you and the original theme of the Turner Diaries. It was to the tangent about Nazi Memoribilia. Everytime this subject comes up, we get people that think possessing Nazi memoribilia is the same as having a satanic alter in your house, ie very bad.

I have never read the Turner Diaries, primarily because I've never came across the book for free. I've no desire to buy it at a gun show. I read books I detest all of the time because I think we need to know what the other side thinks (I read both Bill and Hillary's fictional accounts of their lives). Some day I will read the Turner Diaries and see what the fuss is about. Maybe...

444
August 15, 2006, 02:08 AM
How dare you not be in lockstep with the PC crowd ?

If you are going to start thinking for yourself and making your own decisions we are going to have to pass a law banning that also.
The thought police have ways of bringing you into line.

I spent last weekend at a gunshow that had several venues selling Nazi artifacts. I think they are cool and I enjoy looking at them. I don't personally own any of them (other than a K98 rifle, a couple Lugers, and a couple P38s) but I would certainly take them if someone was giving them away. Those daggers and whatnot are very cool in my book. A year or two ago, there was a guy selling of his lifetime collection of German belt buckles. I spent probably a half hour asking him about them. I even ended up buying a Nazi ERA firefigher belt buckle. It is the same buckle they wear now, mine just happens to have been from that era (and has nothing whatever to do with the Nazi party although it was displayed with hundreds of actual Nazi belt buckles). I am a professional firefighter and when I bought it, I imagined the job the original owner had as we dropped incendiary bombs on their cities. Whole sections of cities on fire. Buildings collapsing. Active bombing taking place while he was attempting the futile effort of putting out the fires. Wondering if his family was alive or dead. At this show last weekend, a guy had a display of Swiss shooting medals for sale along with Swiss Lugers and Swiss daggers. I spent some time talking to him and ended up buying a couple of the shooting medals to display in my gun room. I wonder if that is OK with the thought police ? The Swiss kept accounts from people who died in the concentraion camps. They banked money for Nazis. They allowed Nazis to escape through their country............etc. They probably should be banned next. Oh wait, you didn't use the word ban: Maybe they should be protested ?
Now pardon me while I pack for my trip to the re-education camp.

Overman
August 15, 2006, 02:29 AM
They'll start with "Turner Diaries". They'll take that down. Too "disgusting" they'll say. Next it'll be "Soldier of Fortune". "What honest citizen needs that?" they'll say. Then it'll be "American Rifleman". Bunch of gun loons.

As long as "Turner Diaries" is still being sold, I'll know we have some degree of freedom. When I stop seeing that book, I'll know I have to start REALLY worring.

Personally, I'm glad to see books like "Turner Diaries' still out there. Lets me know that viewpoints more extreme than mine are still out there, and are not being jailed (yet). It's one of my canaries in the coalmine, so to speak.

tellner
August 15, 2006, 02:51 AM
Ubermensch, do you call yourself that just to get a rise out of people who've had some high school German?

Nobody is saying that the Turner Diaries should be illegal. We are saying that it is vicious and evil and that people with a shred or two of humanity don't support it or go out of their way to give it opportunities for public presentation. I'd be willing to bet that you wouldn't give the same consideration to Revolutionary Communist Party writings or the screeds of the West-hating jihadists. The neo-Nazi stroke books are on exactly the same level.

FreedomKommando
August 15, 2006, 03:10 AM
I find it somewhat ironic that we have gun owners that want to ban WW2 German military artifacts but can't understand why evil black rifles are feared by some in the gun control camp.

I don't really mind the trade in Lugers, daggers and belt buckles at gun shows, and I am not advocating a ban on the possession or transfer of such items.

They are all just inanimate objects, and ought to be treated that way.

I'm talking about the guy flying the swastika (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Flag_of_Germany_1933.svg) - the official symbol of the Third Reich - over his table at the last gun show I went to. Just an inanimate object? No, it's the symbol of pure evil. To fly such a banner is to honor genocide, military aggression, war crimes, hatred, and incomprehensible cruelty.

I'm not saying that the owner of such a banner should be punished by the state. Gun shows are private affairs. The private parties which sponsor them should not tolerate the it. They should write it into their contracts. You would still be able to buy that sh** from kooky sites on the internet.

It seems hypocritical to me for people to justify collect German military firearms from WWII and then condemn the collecting of other Nazi items.

Do you collect swastikas, flgas of the Reich that say "Deutschland Erwache," (http://www.pzg.biz/flags_nazi.htm) SS uniforms, Reinhard Heydrich action figures (http://www.pzg.biz/figure_heydrich.htm), and beer mugs that sport the image of Der FŁhrer? (http://www.pzg.biz/mugs_steins.htm) If those are a few of your favorite things, then yes, there's something wrong with you.

What if Hizbollah guy was at gun shows selling tapes of speeches by bin Laden, CDs of videos of our guys getting beheaded and blown up by jihadis, and flying whatever flags Al Qaeda flies these days?

444
August 15, 2006, 03:20 AM
"What if Hizbollah guy was at gun shows selling tapes of speeches by bin Laden, CDs of videos of our guys getting beheaded and blown up by jihadis, and flying whatever flags Al Qaeda flies these days?"

The American "news" media is already doing that for free. No need to buy anything. Hollywood considers these guys freedom fighters, so I wouldn't want anyone to know that I am against it.

How does this grab you ? http://zombietime.com/stop_the_us_israeli_war_8_12_2006/
That is OK, but if you display WWII stuff at the gunshow, you are a sicko.
People from ********** wonder why many people in the US dislike them and shudder when they move out of their worker's paradise and into America.

crazed_ss
August 15, 2006, 03:25 AM
You didnt answer the question... Would you have a problem with someone selling jihadist propaganda at gunshows?

EDIT: ..And *** does CA have to do with anything? Are you saying people dont like Californians because we're not fans Nazism?

FreedomKommando
August 15, 2006, 03:32 AM
CDs of videos of our guys getting beheaded and blown up by jihadis,

The networks do not show such things, and they do not fly enemy flags over their buildings or during their broadcasts. The media do not glorify Al Qaeda, bin Laden, Hizbollah, or the Iraqi insurgency. The guy flying the Nazi flags over his table at a gunshow is glorifying the Third Reich.

How does this grab you ? http://zombietime.com/stop_the_us_is...war_8_12_2006/
That is OK, but if you display WWII stuff at the gunshow, you are a sicko.

No, I don't that it's OK to refer to Jews as "kikes." Nobody on this forum has voiced the opinion that it is OK to call Jews "kikes," so what does that dork with a sign have to do with neo-Nazis selling Nazi sh** - excuse me, I mean "World War II military artifacts" at gun shows?

Liberal Gun Nut
August 15, 2006, 03:37 AM
I said several times in this thread I have a big problem with Nazi crap at gunshows. I'll say that I would have an equally big problem with Hizbolah flags at gun shows.

This kind of stuff is a deal killer for fence-sitters.

Autolycus
August 15, 2006, 04:16 AM
ASDAF: A better book for pro-gun people to use to represent a bad government is Unintended Consequences.

I got the impression that you were using The Turner Diaries to illustrate a bad government. (I may have misread your post.)

As it stands I support peoples right to own Nazi memorabilia. If it is real then it should be treated with respect. It is a piece of history that can serve as a reminder of the worst kind of hatred. And the men who carried it were a formidable enemy.

Replica crap is just so some kids can feel tough and as if they belong. Books like the Turner Diaries should be sold at KKK meetings and all that. It is not a part of the gun culture but part of a culture that likes guns. I am not for the banning of books by the government but by private groups I would hope a gunshow would get rid of that stuff.

The Antis love to point out that this is the stuff you see at a lot of gun shows. Timothy McVeigh claimed that he blew up a building to support the gun culture and he used the Turner Diaries as an inspiration. This kind of stuff scares people who are borderline anti or pro gun. They become anti when they see some books like that being sold at gun shows. They then associate them as being the gun culture. And we dont need any more enemies than we have.

GW
August 15, 2006, 04:22 AM
"Let the Market decide!" What garbage. The Market isn't G-d Almighty. It's an abstraction of the human tendency to buy and sell stuff. If you choose it as your arbiter of morality you have a conscience that most closely resembles cheese-cloth.
I prefer the market as the arbiter in these matters over self-appointed judges of morality
Its this simple-- If nobody buys the books, if nobody is throwing tantrums about it and keeping it in people's consciousness, it will die the quiet death it deserves.
The issue is freedom and this includes the freedom for these people to be *********s. They are the price we have to pay for our freedom to say what's on our minds, complain about our politicians or even to post here on the internet.

Try to organize a boycott of the shows and see if the promoters cut the bookseller loose.

But I do believe that people who spout this sewage are more likely than your average American to dangerous to the people around them. I don't trust them and think that law enforcement needs to be aware of what they do and come down on them with the Big Hammer when they engage in acts of terrorism

Wow, change the text in red to "own guns" and you have the mentality of the folks who want to take away our freedom/right to keep and bear arms

If you are right and this is the only venue where this sort of filth and the scum who peddle it are to be found, well, that certainly says something about us as a group.

I like to think that it means gun-shows and those of us who attend them are about FREEDOM, Liberty and Self-Determination, As I said before, the nazi types are the burden we must bear if we are to be a free society.
I prefer having to deal with those idiots over having thought-police determine what I can and cannot say/read/write.

kengrubb
August 15, 2006, 04:40 AM
Timothy McVeigh claimed that he blew up a building to support the gun culture and he used the Turner Diaries as an inspiration.It is alleged that McVeigh claimed to have read Unintended Consequences (http://amazon.com/o/ASIN/1888118059), wished he'd read it before blowing up the Murrah Building, and that he would not have blown up the Murrah Building had he read it.

John Ross has a superb response (http://www.john-ross.net/u_c_faq.htm) about McVeigh and Unintended Consequences.

The Guy
August 15, 2006, 04:40 AM
Military history stuff is neat, no matter whos side it came from. I don't own any though.

I don't think it is a good thing to have a nazi flag unfolded in plain veiw at a gun show, or those guys who insist on wearing German Military uniforms at their booths. They may have a first admendment right to do so, but what they are doing in our shared house (firearms) is bad for our image. We have enough trouble with image anyway to consiously add fuel to the radical left's fire.

I used to have a confederate flag in my room when I was at school. Then I became freinds witha dude who happened to be black. He was cool with it, but I ended up thowing it out anyway because I realised that to most blacks, it was an incennerary symbol of oppression. I CHOSE to toss it, out of respect for him, even though he DID NOT have a problem with it. I did not want the immage that I am an intollerant racist, because I am not.

I also cringe when some people show up to shows wearing lots of cammo and "kill 'em all" type shirts. Those people are the ones who end up on T.V. looking like illiterate dumb asses. They may not be, but you bet that the press will do a good job of protraying them as such.

At a show at the Champaign County fairgrounds several years ago, there were several people standing around outside. They were all dressed well and chatting quitely among theirselves. A borred T.V. crew was watching them, waiting for something to happen. Well, in the form of three leather clad motorcyclists it did. The on scene guy waved his camera over, had a short interveiw (30 seconds was all he needed) and zoom, the T.V. crew was off.

That night the interveiw was played on the news. You guessed it, they (motorcycle guys) were protrayed as the "typical" gunshow people, and the one they talked to was esspecially dumb sounding.

Remember who they spoke to out of all the people standing around. Not the older gentlemen, not I (my hair must have been comded that day), but the sterotypical "gun guy".

We are representaives of our culture all the time, so we must hold ourselves to a minimal standard in our represantation. That is why, to help our image in the public eye, we must refrain from having these symbols prominately displayed at our venues. They have a right to be there, I will not disagree, but the promince should be minimalised.

P.S. I have no problem with motorcycle riders. I want to get a bike myself. I have no problem with confederate flags or "kill 'em all" t-shirts. Your choice. Just remember what they say about you in the court of pubilc oppinion, the real court we have to win over. And no, it shouldn't have to be that way!

Autolycus
August 15, 2006, 04:59 AM
Great posting by The Guy.

If you watch "Bowling for Columbine" you would see the people he interviewed. One of the supposed OKC conspirators, a guy whos hat read "F**K You" and Heston. The OKC guy was made to appear like the nutcase he is, the hat guy was talking about how people could be out to get him and just made to sound like a paranoid schitzo. Heston was also made to look bad. Its hard for Antis to do that if there are no Nazi dressed people at a gun show or biker types spouting racism or sounding like conspiracy theorists.

RustyShackelford
August 15, 2006, 05:02 AM
The Turner Diaries is not the best PR for pro-gun/2nd Amendment/gun rights activists. It's a bunch of racist *&%$ that should not be taken seriously.

The SAC(FBI Special Agent in Charge) who started the FBI's elite HRT(Hostage Rescue Team) made all of his sworn agents read The Turner Diaries and understand/learn about the hate groups that push this BS across the US. Note: for more information get the non-fiction book; No Heroes where the SAC explains this subject in more detail. ;)

A few years ago I saw a big display at a local gun show; a group of "white power" nutbars where standing around some guy signing copies of The Turner Diaries! The man claimed to be the "author" of the book but there was one major problem, I saw the real author interviewed on a network TV news show and this guy was a different person! :scrutiny:

What really burned my *^% was that a group of uniformed FHP(Florida Highway Patrol) troopers were also standing by the neo-Nazi table laughing and joking with these a-holes like they were at a church picnic or backyard BBQ, :cuss: .

I considered contacting the FHP's Office of Professional Standards or the FHP Commandant directly but I thought they'd just give me some lame excuses. I was ticked that my tax dollars were be wasted watching these sworn LEOs guarding a lowlife bunch of jerk-offs!

Rusty

Rich K
August 15, 2006, 05:19 AM
I read the Turner Diaries to give me an idea how these wackos think They are a sick bunch of puppies, But if you don't know what they think, you can't offer a good argument against them. You have to know where the chinks are in their armor, and exploit them. Just my .02.

Frog48
August 15, 2006, 05:52 AM
The Turner Diaries is garbage. The whackjobs that believe in that crap are scumbags. I find such beliefs severely misguided and dangerous, however I support their Constitutional Right to hold those opinions and publish their literature.

On another note, I have no problem with WW2 German MILITARY collectibles. I do not think highly of Nazi propaganda, though.

So far on this topic, yall are making no distinction between the Hitler chronies and the soldiers. Nazis were the political party, and the paramilitary units within the party (SA/SD/SS/Gestapo). The Wehrmacht was the military (Army/Navy/Luftwaffe).

I know, its just semantics, to an extent.

Deanimator
August 15, 2006, 08:31 AM
I have read the Turner Diaries. It is an angry, mean spirited book. Parts of it are hard to read. Other parts are quite fascinating as it gives you an insight into a sub-culture you probably never knew existed.

The neo-Nazi National Alliance used to sell it at gunshows at the Cuyahoga Country Fairgrounds, here in the Cleveland area. They eventually got the boot. They uniformly seemed to represent the bar patrons in Star Wars, rather than some "master race". There wasn't a chin among them. The funny thing was that they used as their symbol, the Nazi "Mother's Cross" for reproductive virtuosity. Oddly, none of them seemed especially fecund...

Kentak
August 15, 2006, 09:45 AM
Regarding "Nazi crap at gunshows," etc.

My brother is a Civil War buff. He has a collection of both Union and Confederate artifacts. Some collectors specialize in Union, others in Confederate. Doesn't mean they take sides, they just have an interest in one or the other. Same thing with WWII. Just because someone has an interest in collecting Nazi artifacts, doesn't necessarily mean they are fans of the Nazi doctrine. It's a legit niche of historical interest. *Could* the collectors be neo-Nazis? Sure, but let's not jump to that conclusion based just on the interest in the artifacts.

K

Sungun09
August 15, 2006, 10:59 AM
"Personally, I'm glad to see books like "Turner Diaries' still out there. Lets me know that viewpoints more extreme than mine are still out there, and are not being jailed (yet). It's one of my canaries in the coalmine, so to speak."

Well said

Hk91 Fan
August 15, 2006, 12:49 PM
I don't post much but this one brought me out. I am absolutely astounded at the fact that there are some here who feel that gunshows should choose to exclude certain war relics from the tables. Ever searched for a certain obscure firearm? Well then, next time try for it's related accouterment - I assure you that this is much more time consuming and difficult.

I own numerous Nazi objects (all real*, expensive, and very much tied to the arms that they surround). Moreover, I own numerous other war relics, as well. As an example, I would own true Hezzbolah (sp?), Chechen, all Axis members, Ghengis Khan, Darth Vader and/or whatever else were I able to own the true arms of the period. I am a collector, and cherish these items. There should be no more stigma attached to these items than there should be for a Volkswagon, or a Krupps coffe maker or whatever else people tend to own.

Moreover, since when did we all care what anti's think about our sport/heritage/hobby/craft/whatever? "They" will always paint us as racist, ignorant, paranoid extremists and whatever else will help forward their anti freedom agenda. Further, in case some of you haven't noticed, the gun culture is not immune to the type of ignorant, racist, ignorant, paranoid, and extremist persons who populate EVERY facet of society. None are immune.

If the Turner Diaries didn't exist, the anti's would fabricate another type of stereotype for us to wallow beneath. When that goes away, they will start going for Enemies, and UC...


* P.S. I would certainly consider owning modern reproductions of war relics if I was set on a certain look for a case and couldn't find the real thing. I would still try to locate the real object, though - but, this can be difficult.

gwalchmai
August 15, 2006, 12:56 PM
I always find it hilarious when <strike>leftist</strike> progressive gun owners rail about how TD, nazi junk, and beef jerky shouldn't be sold at gun shows because it "hurts our cause". They completely miss their creeping incrementalism in their zeal to appeal to the very leftists who want to close the gun shows down.

tellner
August 15, 2006, 01:01 PM
Sorry, it doesn't wash.

This stuff is evil. We should fight evil, not support it. Let them buy and sell their trash in private away from decent people, but cut them no more slack than we do the jihadis.

Not care what the antis say? Well, in Marshmallow Fairy Land we wouldn't have to care what anyone else thinks. Here in the real world there are things like public opinion. If people like you support and encourage Nazi bastards you are going to turn fence sitters and decent pro-gunners into antis. If right and wrong don't affect you at least self-interest should make a dent.

444
August 15, 2006, 01:08 PM
It's called "divide and conquer" gwalchmai.
You make one segment of the group out to be villians and go from there. People who collect WWII relics are bad. People who own guns with big magazines are bad. People who own machine guns are bad. People who read certain books are bad. People who dress a certain way are bad.
You succeed with this tactic when the members of the group itself buy into the program an villianize that segment of the group and disassociate themselves with members of that segment. Which is another ironic part of this thread. People are so anxious to proclaim themselves as not racist yet they don't think about the fact that they are singling out a certain group of people for "special treatment".

What frightens me about these threads is how effective the brain washing is. When a thread like this is started, people wait in line simply to post that they are not racist. They aren't adding anything to the thread: they just want to publically state that they are not racist. And the targets of these allegations are the people that the thought police say are the targets. As I tried to bring up at the beginning of this thread, it is rare that you get this kind of outrage at racism by blacks or racism by muslums or whatever. In fact, in the past, when racist comments have been made about muslums, the thread was immediately locked. But, make a racist statement about whites and that is OK in our society. And, people are so brainwashed that they never even think about it. In the re-education classes we have at work, these are called "protected groups". If you are not a member of one of these protected groups you can not be the victim of racism or discrimination. If it's racist, then it's racist: doesn't matter who you are or what group you belong to.
Let's use that thing on top of our necks.

Art Eatman
August 15, 2006, 01:14 PM
There's a really big difference between somebody selling WW II artifacts and including German or Japanese material, and somebody displaying a Nazi flag as a symbol of his beliefs as he sells Nazi stuff.

I've always believed in "Know Your Enemy", which is why I've read "Mein Kampf", some of Lenin's stuff, and Karl Marx. Reading the "Turner Diaries" or the author's second book (I forget the title) and browsing such websites as "Stormfront" is just part of having some feel for what/how the weirdly-people think. I guess nowadays, checking out Jihadist stuff might be worthwhile, although I think I know as much as I need to about them...

Art

BobTheTomato
August 15, 2006, 01:22 PM
Maybe we should let the UN regulate it. Then there will be no problems in the world........

Phetro
August 15, 2006, 01:24 PM
Bah...don't buy it. I wouldn't. The best way to protest a thing is to deny its makers your money. And let's face it: The Turner Diaries is not exactly your household-name book, either--certainly not even well-known enough to be a threat to anyone. So people not buying it has worked.

But banning it at gunshows is just as much an infringement of rights as is banning guns. You can't say "I believe in freedom of speech" and then have a "but" anywhere afterwards. If there are restrictions, there is no freedom, now is there?

(No, yelling "fire" in theaters should not be illegal either--if people are dumb enough to trample each other over some idiot yelling "fire" when there's obviously no fire, it's the Darwin award for all of them.)

wingnutx
August 15, 2006, 01:26 PM
A private business (mall, gun show) deciding what can be displayed or marketed at their function is not censorship.

gwalchmai
August 15, 2006, 01:34 PM
Not care what the antis say? Well, in Marshmallow Fairy Land we wouldn't have to care what anyone else thinks. Here in the real world there are things like public opinion. If people like you support and encourage Nazi bastards you are going to turn fence sitters and decent pro-gunners into antis. If right and wrong don't affect you at least self-interest should make a dent. So since I disagree with you I "support and encourage Nazi bastards". That's right out of the playbook, isn't it?

But let's just address the fence sitters and "decent" pro-gunners. Won't they be turned into antis when they see "assault rifles" being sold at shows? What about "high capacity magazines" and "cop killer bullets"? Before you're done you can only sell at gun shows what Mama Brady says is OK. I don't see that as being in my self-interest.

Phetro
August 15, 2006, 01:35 PM
What frightens me about these threads is how effective the brain washing is. When a thread like this is started, people wait in line simply to post that they are not racist. They aren't adding anything to the thread: they just want to publically state that they are not racist.

Man! Talk about hitting the nail on the head...that sums up about 99% of the sheople right there. I would be ashamed of myself if my mind were so simple as to suffer from that bit of social engineering. But propaganda has convinced the masses that anything less than publicly condemning racism is unacceptable.

They also condemn the people who disagree--apparently "to each his own" isn't something they practice...at least not in public. "No...there should be no racism because a bunch of people said it's unfair and doesn't make sense, so let's condemn whoever disagrees, and try to censor them so it looks like they don't exist!" Come on. The fact of the matter is, these sheep had no opinion on racism before they were told what to think by Big Brother and Big Media: their two sources of "information" and "facts."

I personally don't care what anyone believes--whether they're racist, neutral, or anti. Why does anyone care what anyone else thinks? I actually believe in that Constitution that protects everyone's rights to believe whatever they want, and speak their minds, whatever their opinion.

mike101
August 15, 2006, 01:36 PM
The Turner Diaries shoud absolutely be banned from gun shows. The last thing gun owners in this country need right now, is to be associated with the hate-spewing morons who subscribe to this garbage.

Real Nazi memorabilia from WWII is a valid collectable. WWII was the biggest event in all of human history. I personally know people who lived through the Nazi occupation of Copenhagen, who hated the Germans, but still have a collection of Nazi artifacts. I don't believe, however, that they would approve of flying the Swastika under any circumstances. Neither do I. The fact that WWII ended 60 years ago does not make these people any less the enemy.

I realize that there is a First Ammendment in place, to protect the rights of everyone, even these Nazi/Klan idiots. However, it seems to me that since this country fought a terrible war to rid the world of the Nazi threat, we should reserve the right to ban their literature, and to consider their espousal of Nazi philosophy as treasonous behavior.

People all over the world died by the millions to rid our planet of the Nazis. As far as I am concerned, they have no rights.

Am I mistaken, or was the Klan outlawed in this country at one time? If we can outlaw the Klan, we can outlaw the Nazis.

Phetro
August 15, 2006, 01:43 PM
Not care what the antis say? Well, in Marshmallow Fairy Land we wouldn't have to care what anyone else thinks. Here in the real world there are things like public opinion.

Nope, I don't care what they say. And in the real world--welcome to it, by the way--you don't need to care what people think.

"Public opinion" is a term made up by social engineers to describe the effect that steady propaganda has on the minds of its recipients. In particular it describes the susceptibility of sheep-like minds to be led in whatever direction the media chooses to lead them. If you believe "public opinion" exists, you are not capable of free thought. The public does not have an opinion. Individuals do.

gwalchmai
August 15, 2006, 01:44 PM
The Turner Diaries shoud absolutely be banned from gun shows. The last thing gun owners in this country need right now, is to be associated with the hate-spewing morons who subscribe to this garbage. How about books that advocate killing homosexuals? Should they be banned from gun shows, too?

mike101
August 15, 2006, 01:51 PM
Are there books that advocate killing homosexuals? If there are, are they being sold at gun shows? If so, yeah, we should ban those too.

The Nazis certainly advocated killing homosexuals, and did, by the thousands. There may be something in the Turner Diaries about exterminating homosexuals. It wouldn't surprise me. However, I've never read it.

wingnutx
August 15, 2006, 01:52 PM
It's a trap. He's talking about the bible.

444
August 15, 2006, 01:55 PM
Should it be banned also ?
That is the book the white extremests seem to worship. There are certainly people who object to the book and it's teachings.
So, while we are banning books I don't see why that one should be exempt.


Oh wait, you only want the books YOU say are bad to be banned.
What you don't understand is that when you give someone the power to ban something the genie is now out of the bottle. YOU no longer have control over what is banned. You have shifted the balance of power from the people to the state. Right now you have the power to ignore those people at the gun show. You have the power to argue with them. You have the power to not buy their products. You have the power to post threads about them on-line. But, if you give up your power and turn that power over to the state, you no longer have a say in what happens: they do. They decide what books are going to be banned. They decide what books you can buy and sell which translates to them deciding what you can read. Because YOU gave them that power. You decided you wern't mature and sensible enough to make your own decision: you wanted someone else to decide what you could buy and what you could read.
Americans can't wait to bargin away their freedom a little bit at a time to support some pet cause they have. They don't even think about the long term effect. In fact they never even consider the concept of freedom and what that word means.

gwalchmai
August 15, 2006, 01:59 PM
There may be something in the Turner Diaries about exterminating homosexuals. It wouldn't surprise me. However, I've never read it. Oh, so you're advocating banning it based on what, exactly? Something someone told you?

What if I told you it was about Jane Fonda's courtship? Would you think it's OK to sell at gunshows?

Maybe other people are intelligent enough to make up their own minds.

mike101
August 15, 2006, 02:00 PM
:eek: That's right. I forgot about the Bible. Does it actually say to kill them? Wow. That must have been in the Old Testament, when God was pissed off at everbody.

Maybe we should edit the bible. The Pope got away with it in the Middle Ages.

gwalchmai
August 15, 2006, 02:02 PM
Posted by mikeburk101:
That's right. I forgot about the Bible. Does it actually say to kill them? Wow. That must have been in the Old Testament, when God was pissed off at everbody.

Maybe we should edit the bible. The Pope got away with it in the Middle Ages.I rest my case.

.45Guy
August 15, 2006, 02:03 PM
Am I mistaken, or was the Klan outlawed in this country at one time? If we can outlaw the Klan, we can outlaw the Nazis.

Great idea.... let's outlaw any viewpoint that the majority finds repugnant!! Dang, why didn't I think of that. Then we can all dance and sing under rainbow skies with gumdrop smiles........ Here in Mil ay wau kay firearms owners are a disliked minority. We can't have those vile gunowners running around, Bill of Rights be damned:rolleyes:

wingnutx
August 15, 2006, 02:08 PM
If it was my business then I could ban bibles, swastikas, or beef jerky on the premises.

I would bet that gun control groups have applied to set up booths at gunshows and have been turned down.

444
August 15, 2006, 02:13 PM
Certainly you can. It's your show.

But, you might be sued for the effort or protested. If you banned some books, or people, there would be a huge public outcry. There would be national news coverage. There would be financial and legal support for the group banned by groups such as the ACLU, the NAACP, the Rainbow Coalition, the Arab league etc. There would be webpages set up, there would be collections taken, there would be threads posted on The High Road.

If you banned other things like the Bible or the Turner Diaries no one would make a wimper about it.

The concept is exactly the same: one group is being singled out to be treated differently, to be discriminated aganist, but the way those people are treated will be different because they arnt' a part of a protected group. They arn't a member of a group the PC crowd choses to support. They are members of a group that can have their rights violated while the other group will be defended at all cost.
And there is the problem for me.

mike101
August 15, 2006, 02:15 PM
First of all, I don't appreciate having my intelligence insulted.

Yeah, someone told me that Nazis are evil, and I believe them. I guess I don't really need to read it, do I.

I don't believe they are selling any books about Jane Fonda at gun shows, so what's your point? And you question my inteligence? :cool:

wingnutx
August 15, 2006, 02:20 PM
management not allowing something at a business is in no way equivalent to legally banning it.

HUGE strawman.

Phetro
August 15, 2006, 02:22 PM
A private business (mall, gun show) deciding what can be displayed or marketed at their function is not censorship.

So abolishing the First Amendment by proxy--which is, after all, what you're suggesting--is okay? :barf:

How about every business in the world bans people carrying firearms, pal? Poof! Instant repeal of Second Amendment...by proxy. Congratulations--you've found the loophole the statists have always wanted: taking away rights and calling it freedom!

ilbob
August 15, 2006, 02:23 PM
I would bet that gun control groups have applied to set up booths at gunshows and have been turned down.

I would take their money if it was up to me.

We are in the right. We are not perfect, nor is everyone that owns guns perfect. But if we cower in the shadows as some here are advocating, we are telling the world we are wrong.

gwalchmai
August 15, 2006, 02:23 PM
First of all, I don't appreciate having my intelligence insulted.

Yeah, someone told me that Nazis are evil, and I believe them. I guess I don't really need to read it, do I.TD isn't about nazis. It's about white-supremacists.

I don't believe they are selling any books about Jane Fonda at gun shows, so what's your point? I'm typing this slowly. You said you wanted TD banned because someone said it was bad. I just asked whether if I told you it was OK you'd be in favor of selling it at the show. Ask someone to explain the "Turner-Fonda" connection.

And you question my inteligence? No, I don't.

wingnutx
August 15, 2006, 02:27 PM
If you refuse to let me onto your property because you don't like what I represent that is not a violation of my civil rights.

If someone knocks on my door handing out Earth First literature I will tell them to leave ASAP. Their right to expression does not trump my property rights or right to association.

gwalchmai
August 15, 2006, 02:31 PM
If you refuse to let me onto your property because you don't like what I represent that is not a violation of my civil rights.

If someone knocks on my door handing out Earth First literature I will tell them to leave ASAP. Their right to expression does not trump my property rights or right to association.I absolutely agree with you on this point, and on the show's owners having the right to decide what can be sold.

I just disagree about trying to appease the PC is all.

wingnutx
August 15, 2006, 02:32 PM
Public perception does matter, which is what makes Oleg's efforts such an assett.

gwalchmai
August 15, 2006, 02:34 PM
So is Oleg going to gun shows and telling the owners who they should rent tables to?

wingnutx
August 15, 2006, 02:38 PM
What kind of non sequitur is that?

gwalchmai
August 15, 2006, 02:40 PM
Oleg's efforts have nothing to do with your attempts to impose your choices on the gun show organizers.

wingnutx
August 15, 2006, 02:42 PM
Someone upthread said that PR and public perception do no matter. I was addressing that notion.

Phetro
August 15, 2006, 02:43 PM
Oh wait, you only want the books YOU say are bad to be banned.
What you don't understand is that when you give someone the power to ban something the genie is now out of the bottle. YOU no longer have control over what is banned. You have shifted the balance of power from the people to the state. Right now you have the power to ignore those people at the gun show. You have the power to argue with them. You have the power to not buy their products. You have the power to post threads about them on-line. But, if you give up your power and turn that power over to the state, you no longer have a say in what happens: they do. They decide what books are going to be banned. They decide what books you can buy and sell which translates to them deciding what you can read. Because YOU gave them that power. You decided you wern't mature and sensible enough to make your own decision: you wanted someone else to decide what you could buy and what you could read.

Even worse: he wanted someone else to decide what other people could read.

Americans can't wait to bargin away their freedom a little bit at a time to support some pet cause they have. They don't even think about the long term effect. In fact they never even consider the concept of freedom and what that word means.

I must say, 444, you have a great understanding of freedom, and of the mindset that destroys it. If only most people were smart enough to understand you, we'd be getting somewhere.

gwalchmai
August 15, 2006, 02:44 PM
Someone upthread said that PR and public perception do no matter. I was addressing that notion.Sorry. My bad. THR would really benefit from the "quote" button.

Phetro
August 15, 2006, 02:55 PM
I don't believe they are selling any books about Jane Fonda at gun shows, so what's your point? And you question my inteligence?

No, of course not! ;)

Phetro
August 15, 2006, 02:58 PM
Public perception does matter, which is what makes Oleg's efforts such an assett.

Public perception doesn't exist. Perception exists at an individual level, not a collective one. If you think "public perception" is a reality, you are not capable of individual, free thought. I suppose there are some people who think this.

The social engineers refer to them as "successful trials."

wingnutx
August 15, 2006, 03:11 PM
he wanted someone else to decide what other people could read.

Nobody suggested any such thing. This thread has been hijacked by hysterical strawmen. EOM.

mike101
August 15, 2006, 03:24 PM
:what: You're right, I never suggested any such thing. Thank you.

By the way, all of you feel free to type as quickly as you'd like.

I have seen alot of material about Turner Diaries. I've seen the author interviewed. I get it. I don't need to read it. I also don't believe that Nazis are evil because someone told me. I was being sarcastic. Next time, I'll include ;) for those of you who are slow on the up-take.

Nazis hate Jews, Blacks, Catholics, Hispanics, Swarthy Medditeranean Types, and Homosexuals. Now, explain to me the difference between white-supremacists and Nazis. While you're at it, you can also explain the Turner-Fonda connection. The only one I know of is that she was married to Ted Turner.

As I said earlier, we fought a war to rid the world of Nazis, the worst white supremacists who ever existed. Under these circumstances, why should they have the right to keep it up. People who would deprive so many groups of people of their rights, deserve no rights themselves. That isn't political correctness. It's just decency.

444
August 15, 2006, 03:30 PM
"This thread has been hijacked by hysterical strawmen"

In other words, if we don't agree with you, we are wrong.


I have seen the Turner Diaries for sale at gun shows. I once saw it being sold with other similar literature on a table that was obviously rented by a group of neo-nazis. That was all they had at their table was books, tapes, and pamphlets written about that one subject. I have also seen the Turner Diaries being sold by dealers in books of all kinds. They had books about everything (mostly gun related). I have bought a lot of books over the years from these gun show book dealers.
If we decide that we are going to ban certain books from the show, who decides what gets banned ? Then, are we going to have a censor go through the book dealer's inventory prior to him setting up so the censor can decide what books are going to be sold ?

I was at a show this past weekend. There was a T-Shirt dealer there. They had a bunch of real nice quality T-Shirts with humerous, mostly gun related stuff on them. BUT, they were selling a T-Shirt that said: "The Original Boys in the HOOD" with a picture that I think you can guess. I thought that was in very poor taste and I can't imagine anyone wearing such a thing. But, I also can't see throwing them out of the show. In fact, I bought four T-Shirts from them (Glock, GE Mini-Gun and such). I am a grown man. I can make decisions. I disagreed with them selling that blatantly racist shirt, but they didn't ask me what I thought about it. I was happy the T-Shirt dealer was there. I wish they wouldn't have that one shirt, but it is his table.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the show promoter is putting this show on to make money. I like gun shows and want to see them continue. It isn't going to continue if there isn't any money to be made. So, unfortunately, the promoter is going to sell a table to anyone that he can. Our local shows here arn't all that big, I am sure they arn't turning many people away. We have the guys cleaning glasses, we have the guys with the miracle shoe dressings, we have the benie babies, beef jerky and all that. That is the price we have to pay to keep someone interested in putting the show on in the first place.

FWIW A friend of mine asked the show promoter what was up with the table of nazis and he basically said that he didn't want to get hit with some kind of discrimination lawsuit. The next month my buddy asked him why they wern't back and he said he got too many complaints about them. I guess we could simply complain about certain books being offensive but that opens the door to someone complaining about them all. What if an anti realized you could get books banned for a gun show by complaining. So, they could start complaining about the homemade suppressor books and the conversion to full auto books. Then books about improvised explosives and bobby traps. Then any kind of military manual.................... Where does it end ?
You can't open that door.

ArmedBear
August 15, 2006, 03:36 PM
Nazis hate Jews, Blacks, Catholics, Hispanics, Swarthy Medditeranean Types, and Homosexuals. Now, explain to me the difference between white-supremacists and Nazis.

Well, for one thing, white supremacists have never really had it in for Gypsies. And their armbands look a little different.:p

I saw a really gangly-looking example of bad genetics with a White Power t-shirt on and Doc Martens with red laces, the other day. He was gone before I had a chance to say, "Dude, you're not the best example of the Master Race I've ever seen."

.45Guy
August 15, 2006, 03:49 PM
Nazis hate Jews, Blacks, Catholics, Hispanics, Swarthy Medditeranean Types, and Homosexuals. Now, explain to me the difference between white-supremacists and Nazis.

White-supremacists are the inbreds you see on A&E drinking cheap beer and dancing around pictures of Hitler to crappy music. Nazis on the other hand were a political party in control of a nation that conquered continental Europe. It's kinda like lite beer.... same taste with half the calories.;)

mike101
August 15, 2006, 03:52 PM
I know what you mean. It's riot, some of the people who consider themselves Aryans.

Did you ever see the current head of the American Nazi Party? He's a nerdy looking little dude, (looks alot like Himmler), with a speech impediment. He pronounces R's as W's. Ubersturmfuhrer Elmer Fud.

Cwazy Wabbit.

ilbob
August 15, 2006, 03:57 PM
What if an anti realized you could get books banned for a gun show by complaining. So, they could start complaining about the homemade suppressor books and the conversion to full auto books. Then books about improvised explosives and bobby traps. Then any kind of military manual.................... Where does it end ?
You can't open that door.

Trying to appease the liberals/antis does not work. You give them gun registration, it ends up being gun confiscation - every time.

You give them handgun bans, pretty soon it is AWB, than anything remotely usable as a defensive weapon, next thing you know it is the UK where if you are real nice, and ask politely, you might be able to have a shotgun or a 22 rifle if you keep it unloaded and under lock and key. Oh, and by the way, you are subject to any kind of invasive unannounced search anytime the authorities deem it acceptable.

mike101
August 15, 2006, 04:13 PM
It's real simple. Turner Diaries has nothing to do with guns. The other types of books mentioned do.

Again, gun owners do not need to be associated with hate groups. We are having a hard enough time as it is.

Deanimator
August 15, 2006, 04:16 PM
I know what you mean. It's riot, some of the people who consider themselves Aryans.

Have you ever seen Frank Collin, the former head of the Chicago Nazis? He was played by Henry Gibson in "The Blues Brothers". There isn't enough colagen in the known universe to build him a chin. He had that whole Yasser Arafat "shave with a fork" thing going on too.

It turns out that he was Jewish. This seems to have come as quite the shock to his fellow "Aryans", who slammed their "bunker" door in reporters' faces when questioned about the revelation.

He's also been convicted of child molestation. Right after I got out of the Army in '84, I was driving to a job interview in Chicago, when I heard on the radio that he'd just been arrested for molesting a mentally handicapped man in the nursing home where Collin worked.

The last I heard of him, he was a "white witch" somewhere out in the Northwest, trying to burrow himself into the Kennewick Man debate, like a publicity hungry tick.

All neo-Nazis seem to have been cloned from him...

FreedomKommando
August 15, 2006, 04:17 PM
If we decide that we are going to ban certain books from the show, who decides what gets banned ?

The property owners or the ones who leased the grounds and organized the gun show. They could write it into the contract. "As a condition of renting table space, I promise not to (1) fly any of the flags of the Third Reich; (2) sell copies of The Turner Diaries; (3) sell T-shirts, coffee cups of any other items which glorify the Third Reich, the National Socialist German Workers Party, or National Socialism."

I'm not talking about beef jerky. Do you think that Klansmen in white sheets should be allowed to operate a booth and recruit people at gun shows? What about some guy hawking T-shirts bearing the image of Osama bin Laden? What about a booth operated by the North American Man Boy Love Association where copies of Pedophilia: The Radical Case (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0932870244/sr=8-9/qid=1155668770/ref=sr_1_9/104-8240386-5857516?ie=UTF8) by Tom O'Carrol are sold?

I don't think that such walking filth should be allowed space at gun shows. I am not advocating that such people be indicted for peacefully expressing their views. I'm saying that the owners of convention centers and the organizers of gun shows should lower the boom on those people. "Sorry, this is a gun show and we don't rent booth space to Nazis, Klansmen, Al Qaeda, Holocaust-deniers, or child molesters. Go hawk your wares somewhere else."

Let those sick freaks go organize their own show far away from decent people.

gwalchmai
August 15, 2006, 04:17 PM
So, "Mike", do you feel that
(a) nothing should be sold at gun shows that has nothing to do with guns,

and

(b) anything which concerns guns is OK to sell at gun shows?

wingnutx
August 15, 2006, 04:22 PM
In other words, if we don't agree with you, we are wrong.


Again, you are putting words into another's mouth.

mike101
August 15, 2006, 04:24 PM
I think I saw him on the same show. It's been on the History Channel a few times.

I'm telling you, they all look alot like Himmler, Reich Minister of the SS, chicken farmer, and all around shining example of Aryan manhood.;)

StrikeFire83
August 15, 2006, 04:27 PM
I have read The Turner Diaries, the whole thing. I started this thread because I think it is a pathetically written genocidal white supremacists wet dream that uses a gun-ban as the springboard/justification for its rhetoric.

1. No piece of media should be banned by the government, except for pornographic photographic/video representations of children.

2. When good men stay home and say nothing, only the evil is heard.

3. I’m the most critical of people who hold similar beliefs to my own. People have approached me at gun shows and given me Nazi literature because I have short blonde hair and wear mountain boots.

There is a bottom feeding white supremacist under current in the RTKABA movement that prays on young, poor, un-educated white men who feel insecure about themselves.

The Turner Diaries fosters this, and so I will speak out against it. And, for those who seem to have an eyesight problem, I will state one final time for the record:

I’m am NOT in favor of banning any piece of literature, The Turner Diaries included.

Oh, and one more thing. Although I’m not a Christian I’ve read the entire old testament. The bible does advocate genocide in certain places, but it never calls for men to kill homosexuals. Sorry, fella. God killed the homosexuals at Sodom and Gomorra, not men.

If you are going to try and rope people in with fallacious, red herring arguments, you can at the very least get your facts straight.

444
August 15, 2006, 04:40 PM
"It's real simple. Turner Diaries has nothing to do with guns. The other types of books mentioned do."

Yeah, but we get into the slippery slope argument again. What about books on knives ? What about books on collecting Nazi stuff ? What about books on collecting any other non-gun subject ? What about WWII fighter plane books ? Can we then ban any book we don't agree with ? What about books people complain about ? What if the books they complain about are in fact about guns ? ................................... It never stops.
The show promoter certainly can decide if he wants to rent them a table but if he DOES rent them a table then where do you get off talking about banning them from the show ? It is his decision isn't it ? Again, he must not have a problem with it because he rented them a table in the first place.

Let's say you don't agree with him renting the space to them, so you protest. Now YOU are the one that is bringing this issue to the attention of the public. You are also attempting to interfere with the show and everyone in it. You are attempting to force your beliefs on other people. You consider your veiwpoint to be so important that if anyone doesn't want to listen to you, you will make them listen to you.

This is just beating a dead horse at this point, but I don't understand why you can't disagree with people and just go on about your business ? Why does our opposition have to be made into a big issue ? Why do you feel that you are so important that everyone MUST do as you say or you are going to see that they do ? Can't you just pass that table by and go on about your business. Why can't everyone else leave everyone else alone ?

StrikeFire83
August 15, 2006, 04:49 PM
Can't you just pass that table by and go on about your business. Why can't everyone else leave everyone else alone ?

444
When you've met folks with barcodes on their forearms, who still bear the psychological and physical scars of concentration camps, then you MIGHT begin to understand why there are those of us who would appose Nazism and its latter day evolution at every turn.

Forcing people to keep quiet it not one of my goals. But if a person uses his 1st Amendment rights to spew vile, genocidal, hate-filled invective, then you’re a fool if you think I'm just going to stand there and take it.

gwalchmai
August 15, 2006, 04:57 PM
Forcing people to keep quiet it not one of my goals.Fair enough. What IS your goal? What would you like to see accomplished if you could wave your hand and have your wish?

ETA: Sorry, I went back to your OP. I think it is our duty as good men (and women) to decry this piece of trash and confront those who would accuse the gun community of being like the villainous caricatures who populate The Turner Diaries.OK. I agree. Who are these people who are making these accusations?

Phetro
August 15, 2006, 05:00 PM
I'm not talking about beef jerky. Do you think that Klansmen in white sheets should be allowed to operate a booth and recruit people at gun shows?

:mad: If he wants. Pass him by if you don't like it. Laugh at him for good measure.

What about some guy hawking T-shirts bearing the image of Osama bin Laden?

Yep. Along with the idiots who sell shirts with the commie Che Guevara on them. Pass them by too if you don't like it. Come on: we all resist the urge to hit them--you can too.

What about a booth operated by the North American Man Boy Love Association where copies of Pedophilia: The Radical Case by Tom O'Carrol are sold?

Yuck! :barf: But yes again. And um...pass them by if you don't like it.

There, that was easy! We didn't give any of the people we don't agree with our attention or our money, and yet liberty still reigns supreme! Aren't we great?

...oh, wait. You mean you don't want liberty to reign? Sorry, bub. This is America: where even the rights of idiots and hate mongers are protected.

When you've met folks with barcodes on their forearms, who still bear the psychological and physical scars of concentration camps, then you MIGHT begin to understand why there are those of us who would appose Nazism and its latter day evolution at every turn.

Oh, please. He never said he doesn't oppose it. "Straw man" is a huge understatement here.

Forcing people to keep quiet it not one of my goals. But if a person uses his 1st Amendment rights to spew vile, genocidal, hate-filled invective, then you’re a fool if you think I'm just going to stand there and take it.

He never said anything about anyone keeping quiet. You're missing the point. He--like other liberty-minded people--want the right to free speech and commerce preserved for everyone, not just people who are generally accepted by the mainstream as "normal."

gwalchmai
August 15, 2006, 05:01 PM
Aslo, there are a LOT of publications out there I disagree with. If I have to decry them all I won't have time to do much else.

HankB
August 15, 2006, 05:15 PM
Have you ever seen Frank Collin, the former head of the Chicago Nazis? Had a brief conversation with him once. I was walking down a street in Chicago around 25 or 30 years ago - probably somewhere around 67th & Kedzie - when I encountered a couple of guys (being carefully watched by police) on a street corner who were trying to pass out Nazi literature.

Frank Collin himself - an unimpressive little dude with a pimply complexion - approached me and said words to the effect of "DO you know how the N*****s and Jews are ruining this country?"

MY response was "F*** you, Nazi!" and I kept walking.

He didn't even blink - I guess he was getting a lot of the same reaction - and moved on to the next passerby.

444
August 15, 2006, 05:16 PM
" But if a person uses his 1st Amendment rights to spew vile, genocidal, hate-filled invective, then youíre a fool if you think I'm just going to stand there and take it."

Well, I am a fool for even being in this discussion, so humor me.

If you arn't going to stand there and take it, what exactly are you going to do about it ?

mike101
August 15, 2006, 05:17 PM
We didn't fight and win a war against people who collect knives. They can sell their books at gunshows. Are we clear, now? :D

I'd love some WWII vets to chime in on this one.

Autolycus
August 15, 2006, 05:19 PM
One thing to remember is that Nazi memorabilia DOES NOT EQUAL the Turner Diaries. The book is one thing and the memorabilia is another. If you want to sell the books do it at a book show or a White Power show. Not at my gunshow. The memorabilia should be at a memorabilia convention. If your going to sell authentic WW2 guns then sell them as guns and not memorabilia.

gwalchmai
August 15, 2006, 05:23 PM
If you want to sell the books do it at a book show or a White Power show. Not at my gunshow. Great. Someone who actually runs gunshows. What are your rules about this stuff, Tecumseh? Are they posted anywhere?

Autolycus
August 15, 2006, 05:48 PM
I dont have a gunshow. It was an expression. I am sorry if I was misleading.

I dont like going to gunshows because of these people. It sickens me that I have to see it. If we tolerate it at our gunshows then we are tolerating it in our society. They have their right to speak their Nazi/Racist beliefs but I have the right to critisize them.

Imagine taking a friend to their first gunshow. They walk in and their is a man telling you about how the ******s and Jews are ruining our country? Or that the Holocaust did not happen? Or that it is time to overthrow the government? And lets say he is dressed in camoflauge and a White Power Tshirt or a WW2 German officers uniform? Thats a great introduction into the gun culture isnt it? Now imagine if a reporter walks in. Are you going to interview the normal looking guy in business casual buying a gun or the Nazi dressed man talking about his beliefs?

I would rather the books at the gunshow deal with guns, gun rights, knives, and ammunition. Thats what should be at gunshows in my opinion. And guns and gun accessories of course.

Art Eatman
August 15, 2006, 06:04 PM
:barf:

Closed

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