[deacon]

Shooting my stock Springfield GI Saturday and was doing great until the hammer hooks broke and the hammer would not stay cocked. Really stinks as I was finally begining to feel confident in the pistol. I had been using it for CCW but that will have to be interrupted as I send it back to Springfield. But that also kindof stinks because they are only going to put another MIM part in it that will more than likely break at some point. Probably going to install a C&S ignition set in the near future...glad I was only shooting at paper...:uhoh:

[psychophipps]

Wow :uhoh:

The very concept that anyone with a reputation (and pricing structure) like Springfield has manufactured a firearm where the firing assembly (as in the part that makes it go "Bang!") has not only failed but broken in under 500 rounds is very disconcerting.

Mental note: Thinking about a Springfield = Buy a Kimber instead.

Mark(psycho)Phipps( HAHAHA! )

[mattw]

Kimber uses MIM parts, too.

I've got a springfield 1911 that my father gave me for christmas about 6 years ago and it was my first pistol and my first 1911. Now I think my next serious pistol is going to be a colt WWI repro that I will use for target shooting and the occasional trek into the woods, but mostly I use and still will use my springfield to do all the dirty work that you wouldn't want to use a "pretty" gun for. My springfield was bought used, I am pretty sure that was before they used MIM stuff (1994).

The next handgun I will buy after the Colt WWI repro is going to be a springfield GI, but I plan on making that a cheap WWII repro. So I will be replacing most of the MIM stuff.

[the pistolero]

Thinking about a Springfield = Buy a Kimber instead.

For what it's worth, though, Springfield has a lifetime warranty, while Kimber's is a 1-year. I have a Springfield GI 1911 as well, and aside from a bad extractor (with about two weeks between the time I shipped it to Geneseo to get the extractor replaced and the time I got it back), I've had no problems as of yet with over 1,000 rounds. People are going to have different experiences, of course, but don't give up on the Springfield just yet. And no, I did not get paid for this. :D My own experience has just been very good with Springfield, and more of their products will be in my future.

[Zerstoerer]

All 1911's are overrated & outdated.
Buy Glock or HK next time.

[Old Fuff]

Rather then send it back to S.A. for another MIM replacement (which may be O.K., but I doubt that you will ever trust it) why not replace the hammer with a true high-carbon steel one? Look in a Brownell's catalog (www.brownells.com) for a number of choices, and put the money you'd spend shipping the gun back and forth to partially pay for the hammer.

Also you can sometimes find USGI surplus parts at gun shows, but be sure you know what you're buying.

[deacon]

Talked to Springfield and they are covering shipping...which they should.

I was going to send it in a while back to have the canted front site repaired but never got around to it. This way two issues taken care of with one trip.

Fuff...I am going to eventually replace ALL of the small parts ( starting with ignition ) with real steel units...appreciate the input.

Zerstoerer...never really warmed up to plastic pistols. They work and work well mind you, just not my thing.

[1911Tuner]

Are you sure that the hammer hooks broke? Not likely that both would let go at the same time. More likely another issue. Failure of the sear to reset...Disconnect problem, etc. May be a simple thing, like the sear spring or a burr somewhere...like on the top of the disconnector paddle, hanging the sear.

Zerstoerer...:rolleyes:

[Old Fuff]

Everyone might as well wake up and smell the coffee ... :uhoh:

All of today's 1911 platform pistol makers use MIM (metal injected molded) parts to some degree. Depending on the maker's quality control these are good, bad and indifferent. The manufacturers are out for the cost savings, and presume that failures will be rare. They also are sure that most of the buyers are interested in big-boy toys rather then serious weapons. That may or may not be true, but they're willing to take the risk. You may think otherwise.

The fact of of the matter is that to get an "all real-steel" gun to the original specifications you need to go back to pre-1970 Colt pistols or one made by a USGI contractor. The alternative is to spend a considerable amount of money to replace the questionable parts, - and even then the critical extractor won't be made of the correct spring steel alloy.

Or if your budget won't stand up to this start looking at other makes and models of pistols with a proven reputation for reliability.

But don't try to fool yourself into thinking that the guns being made today are equal to those made in the past. Today the manufacturer's rule is to cut costs any way they can.

[deacon]

Tuner....

Pulled the hammer out and BOTH hooks are gone. In fact, there was a small sliver hanging on the grease on the disconnector, that from what I can tell is/was one of the hooks. The other one probably broke off previously but the pistol continued to function ?

Fuff....

The coffee does indeed stink....

[1911Tuner]

Deacon...Ouch!

Yeah. It'll function with one hook. If the hammer is real steel, it may function for years that way. MIM is a crapshoot. Good MIM is actually pretty tough. Bad MIM is worse than pot metal.

[deacon]

I asked the nice lady at Springfield if the hooks letting loose was a common problem and was told this is the first one she has heard of... still saving my pennies for one of Bill's 24/7 ignition sets.:)

[deacon]

Fuff or any others for that matter...

What is the cutoff serial number that would be considered if one were to shop for one of the pre-1970's produced Colt 1911"s ?

If this journey begins to yield diminishing returns, I may just sell off the GI and begin to keep an eye out for a pre-MIM pistol...thanks.

[TX1911fan]

ANY gun can malfunction, 1911, Glock, HK or otherwise. Most of us have far more rounds than 500 through our Springfields and have had not even a hiccup. Any manufactured item can have a defect, and it's comforting to know that SA stands behind theirs for life.

[Old Fuff]

TX1911fan:
... and it's comforting to know that SA stands behind theirs for life.

TX1911fan is correct in saying that any pistol (or machine for that matter) can have a part fail. But the probabilities of that happening is going up as 1911 platform manufacturers keep cutting quality in search of cost cutting.
Consequently those who carry or use these guns in a weapon context should give the facts of life a good, hard look, regardless of the manufacturer's warantee. Deacon had it right when he said:

...glad I was only shooting at paper...

Deacon:

What is the cutoff serial number that would be considered if one were to shop for one of the pre-1970's produced Colt 1911"s ?

Government Model = 332600C or any USGI 1911A1 .45 pistol
Commander Lightweight = 60277LW
Super 38 = 202188 / CS001001 to CS002800

[TX1911fan]

1911 manufacturers are not the only ones using MIM parts or otherwise looking to lower costs. Find me ANY gun manufacturer who hasn't had a gun come back for a defect or breakage. I'm positive you can't.

The advantage of the 1911 platform, as I see it, is that replacement of MIM parts is extremely easy to do for an amateur. I have no experience with Glock, Sig or HK, but I know that I cannot replace the internals on my Walther P99. If I wanted that done, I'd have to send it to Smith and Wesson or to a gunsmith. On the contrary, with my SA GI, it took all of a couple hours to learn how to completely strip the pistol, and took around $40 to replace all the MIM with "better" parts.

I put "better" in quotes because I am certain that companies such as S&W, Springield, Kimber and others would not use MIM if it was as bad as Old Fuff and others on this board say it is. The majority of SA guns contain at least some MIM, and if it was so bad, their reputation would be trashed (same goes for Kimber and S&W). These companies have not spent the last 100 years building a great reputation only to ruin it to save a few dollars. I replaced the parts mainly to do it, for the learning experience. I have not replaced any parts on my TRP, a much more expensive gun, but one that contains some MIM parts.

[Ala Dan]

Greeting's All-

I think that this is a isolated incident, and not an everyday occurrence.
I own 2x Springfield WW-II G.I. replica's and a Springfield MIL SPEC; with
absolutely 0 malfunctions of any type in all three. All of them are bone
stock weapons, just as they came from Springfield Armory. As has been
noted, MIM parts are seen throughout the industry; and not just limited
to any one manufactuer'er. Folk's parts breakage can happen to the very
best of 'em~!

[Supertac45]

Baer does not use MIM parts in his.

[1911Tuner]

Quote:

>it's comforting to know that SA stands behind theirs for life.<
************

Which may have been a very short warranty period had he been firing at something that was firing back.

TX1911fan wrote:

>>Most of us have far more rounds than 500 through our Springfields and have had not even a hiccup<<
**********************

How about a 91A1 Colt that's at about 140,000 without a hiccup. :cool:

Search for "Springer through the Wringer" for the read on my attempt to destroy a Springfield GI Mil-Spec that I did about 2 years ago. Warning: Not for the squeamish.

As much as I love the 1911 platform, I have to concur with Fuff and others that...well...they just ain't what they used to be.

Supertac...Betcha I can find an MIM or an investment cast part in your Baer.;)

[NMGlocker]

The advantage of the 1911 platform, as I see it, is that replacement of MIM parts is extremely easy to do for an amateur. I have no experience with Glock, Sig or HK, but I know that I cannot replace the internals on my Walther P99. If I wanted that done, I'd have to send it to Smith and Wesson or to a gunsmith.
The P99 is extremely easy to dissasemble. The only tricky part is the roll pin (you need a press to remove it correctly). The Glock is about the easiest pistol made for complete dissasembly, a single 3/32" punch and 2 minutes later it's done. The H&K USP is much trickier, the trigger group and hammer have a few parts that require *just perfect* alignment before they go back together. The Sig P series is fairly easy to detail, but once again the hammer/sear is a bit tricky. If you can detail strip a 1911, any of the others are a breeze.

[Correia]

Zerstoerer, if you don't have anything useful to add, don't bother to post.

There are five gallon buckets full of broken Glocks at the Federal Law Enforcement Traning Center in Georgia.

Anything can break. Deal with it.

[Action_Can_Do]

Ouch! Correia, you must be a 1911 fan. I want to be one. I've just seen too many problems with them to trust one. A full 66% of the 1911s that I've shot had problems. Multiple problems. Jamming, front sight falling out, rear sight falling out, dismal accuracy and all of this in expensive name brand guns. I don't understand why 1911 fans aren't Hi-Power fans. I've never had a problem with mine and even JMB considered it the superior design. The 1911 is the better looking gun, but still.....

[statelineblues]

I bought my Colt Combat Commander (all steel) new in 1982 - could not count the number of rounds thru it. The only 2 things I ever did to it was to replace the sights with Meprolight night sights and put on a beavertail safety. It has been my CCW, duty weapon, home defense gun. Although I have other handguns, and have had several 1911s (including an SA 9mm), the Colt's the one I trust.
If you like what you have, get the best replacement parts for it.

[ugaarguy]

Action Can Do,

Correia was not defending any particular pistol. He was encouraging proper etiquette on this forum. The person's post which he adressed did not provide anything constructive to the thread; therefor it needed to be adressed. IIRC Correia likes just about any reliable pistol - and as a dealer he can get pretty much anything he wants. He's also been gracious enough to pass on his pricing to us, the members of THR, through many groups buy. That includes two group buys on STI pistols just this year. Is he making any money off of this - no. Why two STI group buys? Because folks here who couldn't get in on the first one asked for another. Mr. Correia kindly opened a second group buy; going on right now. You made a personal attack, and an unwarranted one at that - not in keeping with THR rules. I've done it too, edited my post, and apologized. I'll advise you do the same as I'd rather hear it from a fellow member than one of the moderators.

[SAG0282]

This one incident is hardly a trend, but it makes me worship my SIGs that much more. Four of them over years and thousands of rounds and not a single breakage.

Keep us posted if you can though........a Springer GI is highly desired by me........it will hopefully be my next acquisition, and sooner. See that's what happens when the g/f makes you watch Band of Brothers........lol. As if I needed a reason.

[MadMercS55]

Few years back I went through a bunch of parts on a Springfield Mil-Spec. First was the ejector, snapped off during recoil after about 300rnds, the extractor hook snapped off at the 450rnd point. Both replaced with stock Springfield parts. 700rnds I had the same problem as the original poster, the hammer hooks failed. Again fixed by Springfield. 1000rnd mark the ejector snapped off again and I had enough. Again replaced by Springfield and sold the thing off at a loss. I have had poor experiences with Kimbers as well over the years. I'm kinda 1911-shy now I guess you could say, but I do own a SIG GSR Revo that's been flawless from day one.

[Trebor]

I'd heard that Colt does not use MIM for any of the vital parts, such as the lockwork and the extractor. Does anyone have the real info on this?

[Billy Sparks]

I don't think Correia is any more a 1911 fan than anyone else. That said if truely gripes me when someone posts a "how do I fix this" and the only advice someone has is that that gun platform, be it 1911, Glock, S&W, Sig, etc, is a POS and you need to get the "correct" platform.

Okay I need a Diet Pepsi or more sleep.

[Bosko]

Greetings from The New Guy! While not new to shooting, carrying, and instructing, I am relatively new to the 1911 platform. I have two Kimbers. Each has over 1000 rounds through them. I have never had an MIM part break, although both have been back to Kimber for other issues. My Nighthawk Custom Predator III has no MIM parts. I recently completed the 500 round break-in without so much as a hiccup, without cleaning the pistol (as recommended by NHC). I see that 1911tuner posts here so I am priveged to be in good company.

[ugaarguy]

Bosko, welcome to THR! Enjoy your time here, and we look forward to learning from your experience as you share it.

[45auto]

Springfield does offer "tool-steel" parts in their custom shop. Maybe they will "cut you a deal" since the gun is already at Springfield.

Colt uses MIM sears and disconnectors.

[1911Tuner]

Hey hey Bosko! Good to see ya!

[deacon]

Anyone know firsthand the quality of the " tool steel " parts that Springfield uses in the custom shop ?

Thanks for all the replies so far....some good stuff.

[1911Tuner]

Trevor,

Colt uses MIM for its sears and disconnects. They're the only major manufacturer that used MIM extractors for a while, and learned from the experience. They've gone back to barstock, and from what I've seen, they're very good...and may actually be spring-tempered 1090. The few that I've tweaked seem to be pretty springy.

There's good MIM and there's crap MIM. I took a large hammer to a Colt MIM sear...convex side up on an anvil...and couldn't break it until I really slammed it. A sideways whack bent the legs, but didn't break one. The disconnect didn't fare as well, though even it took several hits before it broke. I have a foursome of 1991A1 Colts that are my hard-use beaters, fired an average of 1500 rounds each month, collectively. Two are '91 production with MIM disconnects and barstock sears. One is a mid-90s pistol with both parts made from MIM, as is the 2001 NRM pistol. The two early guns are approaching 140,000 rounds each, and still have the original disconnects. The mid-production is at about
25,000+ and still has both original parts. The NRM is at about the same point, and both parts have been replaced due to wear...at about the 10-12,000 round mark. The MIM extractor in it didn't last a thousand rounds.

I've seen other MIM parts from various manufactures fail early on, and others that have imitated the Energizer Bunny. I've about come to the conclusion that if an MIM part is going to fail, it'll generally do it early. If it goes past about a thousand rounds, it'll likely hold up. Note that this observation is based on my own experience and is an opinion...nothing more. You may have one go for 12-1500 rounds and fly apart the next time you fire the gun.

One thing that you can count on. Love it or hate it...MIM is here to stay.
I predict that as the technology progresses, one day you'll see pistols made entirely from MIM...barrels and all...and they'll consistently outlast the best forged barstock or billet steel that we're using today. But...until that day comes, I'll stick with real steel in serious-purpose pistols.

[1911JMB]

I've got a GI that has seen a round count in the 4 digit range. It used to jam until I had reliability work done, and now its trouble free. Seeing as I'll be carrying it in less than a year, I must ask, does anyone think I should replace the hammer with a Wilson hammer or something to avoid this same problem? Or is it likely not an issue?

[deacon]

1911JMB....

If you are going to be carrying it, consider it a high priority issue. I just thank God that it happened at the range....otherwise I might not be typing this.

[Zerstoerer]

Correia (Moderator or Censor?) wrote: "Zerstoerer, if you don't have anything useful to add, don't bother to post.

There are five gallon buckets full of broken Glocks at the Federal Law Enforcement Traning Center in Georgia.

Anything can break. Deal with it."

Correia - please add something useful. After how many hundred thousand rounds did the Glocks fail at FLETC? I am sure it was more that 500 shots.

I say it again - all 1911 are outdated and overrated. And 1911 owners are emotional attached to them blinding them to see the light which comes in the form and shape of Glocks, HKs and SiGs. Especially at FLETC.

[Big Gay Al]

I've got a springfield 1911 that my father gave me for christmas about 6 years ago and it was my first pistol and my first 1911. Now I think my next serious pistol is going to be a colt WWI repro that I will use for target shooting and the occasional trek into the woods, but mostly I use and still will use my springfield to do all the dirty work that you wouldn't want to use a "pretty" gun for. My springfield was bought used, I am pretty sure that was before they used MIM stuff (1994).

The next handgun I will buy after the Colt WWI repro is going to be a springfield GI, but I plan on making that a cheap WWII repro. So I will be replacing most of the MIM stuff.If you're not willing to get it dirty, I wouldn't buy it.

Some people would likely have a heart attack at my last pistol combat course. The instructor took a students nice looking Glock/XD (I don't know which, all I know was it was a "fantastic plastic" type pistol.) and dropped it in the sand, stepped on it, picked up, blew the sand and dirt off, and then fired it.

Before that, he did the same thing with one of his own guns, a really nice looking Colt 1911, 9mm. I was amazed at first. Then he got me to thinking.

His point, guns are tools, don't be afraid to get them dirty. Would you worry about getting grease on a screw driver?

[ugaarguy]

Zerstoerer,

Deacon, the original poster started this thread to ask for help with his 1911, not have it bashed by you or anyone else. Correia adressed it and asked you contribute to the thread constructively. You did not listen, and your actions are now trolling. Stop trolling and 1911 bashing. Offer constructive advice. Here's an example;

"Deacon, while I prefer Glocks, if you wish to keep your 1911 here is what I would do. Rather than send it back to Springfield, perhaps you should order a new forged hammer from Wilson Combat to replace your broken one from SA. Then you'll be assured the highest quality replacement part.

-Zerstoerer"

See how easy that was? Correia tried to be nice. If you won't listen to a moderator maybe you'll listen to me, a fellow member.

[1911Tuner]

Yo! Zerstoerer! You are cordially invited to bring your GlockSig/USP over to my house and pit it against an overrated, outdated old slabsided pistol in a game of follow the leader. You pick any one of a dozen that I put on the table. Bring lots of ammo and magazines...or a friend to keep your mags loaded while you try to keep up. First one to choke pays for the other's ammo.

When I got home I took the barrel out and looked at those top lugs and found the middle lug was starting to get peened


Now then...Correia's job as a moderator is to keep the thread on-topic and related to the discussion at hand. Sometimes they go off on a tangent, and have to be realigned...but hijacking it without adding anything to the discussion other than "Brand X is Crap! Buy Brand Y" is generally frowned on. If you want to start a thread on how bad you hate any given platform, feel free to do so...and you can make your points there.

Have a nice day...

[Correia]

I apologize in advance for the upcoming thread drift, but I do believe that I just got called out.

So far this week I've been called a commisar, komrade, and now a censor. So apparently I'm worth those big bucks that Oleg pays me. :)

Zerstoerer, dude, I'm trying to help you. The guy had a question about brand X, your response was to buy brand Y, which if you think about it, is pretty useless. If he wanted brand Y, he would have gotten one.

Now I'm going to harp on you, not censor you. It is different. If I wanted to censor you, I would just make your post go away, but that isn't how we do stuff on THR.

Glocks are not perfect. Contrary to the witty marketing slogan, nothing is perfection. They do break, they do jam. In fact, shocking as it may seem, everything breaks or jams. If your particular favorite gun in the universe hasn't jammed, then you haven't shot it enough yet.

A hundred thousand rounds? :p Somebody has been reading too much Chuck Taylor. Guess what? Just because you read it in a magazine doesn't make it true either. There are about a dozen posters on this board who write for gun magazines also, and I don't think any of us are the fountain of all knowledge, and yes, I'm willing to bet that some of us have seen your favorite gun malf also.

Glocks are good guns. So are about fifteen other major brands. So what? Just because Tommy Lee Jones said it was the best doesn't make it so. So relax. Pull up a chair, and maybe you will learn something.

And strangely enough, some of the best professional door kickers in the world go with the obsolete, archaic, piece of crap, 1911. They must not have gotten your memo. And interestingly enough, these tend to be the units that get to pick/pay for their own equipment, rather than going under a large department's umbrella.

Now large departments tend to run with Glock as general issue. That much is true. But at $289 bulk law enforcement price, that doesn't exactly shock me.

Now this wasn't meant to be a brand X bashing thread. So I'm going to walk away. If you want to call me out and argue, please go start another thread.

:scrutiny: And I don't even mind Glocks.

[kikr]

Thats why I carry a Glock.:)

[the pistolero]

Tuner, I went looking for the Springer through the Wringer thread, and all I can say is, just...wow. "Gave it a couple of shakes, slapped another magazine in it and commenced firin'." Priceless, my friend, absolutely priceless. :D I think I'll stick with that overrated, outdated slabside pistol. As for Gaston's plastic pistol and its worshippers, well, I'll just leave that one be, although I will say I had considered getting a Glock 20, until the recent mass infusion of cash into my bank account. Stay tuned for more on that, though.

[1911Tuner]

kikr...I don't allow plastic pistols in the yard.:neener:

On topic, gol-dangit! MIM's gotta go!:D

[mattw]

Some people would likely have a heart attack at my last pistol combat course. The instructor took a students nice looking Glock/XD (I don't know which, all I know was it was a "fantastic plastic" type pistol.) and dropped it in the sand, stepped on it, picked up, blew the sand and dirt off, and then fired it.


The only person that would be having a heart attack if someone did something like that to one of my weapons would be the instructor as he picked his own teeth up off the ground. Handguns are tools, this is true. But I don't stand by and let people abuse my tools.

[NMGlocker]

I'm an instructor who will on occasion throw my own pistol into the dirt to prove a point.
.
.
.
But if someone else threw it into the dirt, we'd have a problem.

[Demiurge]

Springfield's customer service is top notch. I've read a few posts, and some are denouncing the brand because of one problem someone had? Obviously it's your right to do it, but all manufacturers have some guy posting on some forum somewhere saying the same thing about a different gun.

Their failure rates aren't high, and given that the always take care of you.

Any machine can fail, and they will. Just like humans. Some of the near brand bashing would be justified if the failures were happening with any modicum frequency.

[Geno]

Thanks to all who contributed here on topic. I have heard many people discuss the merits of MIM and have doubts, but, they say the proof is in the pudding. 1911tuner has certainly tested that pudding and the results impress! Yet, inspite of the facts, a doubt prangs in my brain. Is it that I am simply hesitant to trust MIM, or is it the "probability" factor? Which has a higher "p" value (probability value of failing). I assume that bar stock has the lower "p" value. This fact has had me concerned enough to consider changing out all of the MIM parts in my 1911s, even though to date they have been tremendously reliable. I can't really add anything of subtance to the advancement of a positional arguement here re: is one better or inferior to the other, but I did want to post this all the same, to express my appreciation to all who have added to my understanding of metalurgy. Great thread! Thanks!

Doc2005

[HSMITH]

FWIW, the C&S drop in fire control parts are made by Extreme Engineering, and about $20 cheaper if you get them in the EE bag instead of the C&S bag. They are VERY good parts, well worth the cost. In most guns they will drop in and run great with a VERY nice trigger quality.

[Old Fuff]

There is more to the issue then a simple black & white, "MIM parts are good," or "no they're not!" The real question has too do with the quality of the part(s), and if MIM technology can produce a certain part (depending on what it is) that's equal to one made out of high-carbon steel.

Addressing quality: It should be remembered that with the possible exception of Kimber, the rest of the gun makers buy these parts from outside vendors. As a consequence they have little direct control over the finished parts' quality, and are dependent on whatever quality assurance program the part(s) makers may have in place. Then because the prime reason they are buying MIM parts in the first place is to reduce manufacturing costs, there is a tendency to buy from the lowest cost vendor. This seldom means the highest quality parts(s). If the gun maker switches to a different sub-contractor who has offered a lower bid, gun buyers may suddenly find that what was satisfactory before suddenly isn't now.

Not all applications lend themselves to MIM technology. Two examples are extractors and mainspring struts. To that list I would add sears, hammers, firing pin stops, magazine latches slide stops, disconectors and safety locks (manual safeties). These parts have knife edges that can crumble or are placed under considerable strain, and/or frequent impacts.

All of this hardly matters if the pistol in not used in a weapon context. When it is the issue becomes critical. While part failure may or may not be common, the possibilities are enough to turn me toward "real steel" parts that have proven their reliability over 95 years. Changing simply to save a little money doesn't impress me if my neck might be at stake.

[Zerstoerer]

Ugaarguy, 1911 Tuner, Correia

Apologies to all of you.
I will try to better myself in the future before I get kicked of this awesome forum.
That would be bad in case my HK USP breaks one day and I need technical advice
myself. Yes, I will say that my old HK P9s did develop a problem once.

1911 Tuner – if you are serious I would like to come by one day.
Will bring HK, tons of ammo and beer. The first gun to fail looses.
But wait, that would not be fair – you said your middle lug is already
wearing out? Just kidding – don’t get offended.

Correia – you are absolutely correct with your suggestions about sticking to the facts or
personal experience/observations. Let’s do that.
I did not quote Tommy Lee Jones or Chuck Taylor.
I have seen HKs and Glocks and SiGs in action at FLETC. And I have seen 1911s
break or be unreliable with hollow points. A lot of people do a lot of gunsmithing
to get a 1911 design to feed modern ammo reliable. Which prompts the question
of why to go to that effort and money when you can have the reliability right out
of the box -as long as that box says ‘Made in Germany/Austria/Switzerland’ on it.
The fact that some SWAT team with almost unlimited funds for ammo and training
uses a 1911 design does not make all 1911s worthy. Why are most LE Dept. not using them?
Why did the Military finally get rid of them ? (not to start a new 9mm - .45ACP thread).

Ugaarguy – will stop trolling as you suggested. Will continue to critique not bash the 1911 design.

I sure enjoy communicating with all of you.

[45auto]

" Why are most LE Dept. not using them?"

SA trigger.

[the pistolero]

Why did the Military finally get rid of them ?

Ammo commonality, according to this (http://www.sightm1911.com/M1911vsM9.htm); they wanted to use the same caliber as the NATO countries. Take the source for what you think it's worth, but there you go.

[Azrael256]

" Why are most LE Dept. not using them?"

SA trigger. That, I think, and the price. A nice 1911 will run in the $600 region while a Glock with comparable features is more like $300 with the LE discount. If your department is issuing pistols (and therefore paying for them), Glock is certainly an excellent way to go. There is, however, no doubt that LE has turned toward DA, DAO, and systems like Glock's in recent years.

I have, however, seen more and more 1911s and BHPs in duty holsters recently.

This MIM thing is a little unnerving. Springfield goes to MIM hammers less than a year ago, and then we hear of hooks shearing off. I know, it's just one event out of many, many hammers, but it does not inspire confidence. A sear nose breaking wouldn't have been such a shock.

[Master Blaster]

Not all applications lend themselves to MIM technology. Two examples are extractors and mainspring struts. To that list I would add sears, hammers, firing pin stops, magazine latches slide stops, disconectors and safety locks (manual safeties). These parts have knife edges that can crumble or are placed under considerable strain, and/or frequent impacts.



I have a whole drawer full of wood working router bits,the cutters are made entirely of sintered metal they are entirely MIM. They spin at 10,000 to 25,000 rpm. They cut wood, and even cut through nails without chipping or breaking. 20,000 impacts per minute sufficient to cut oak. I also have saw blades with teeth made from powdered "pot metal" which is harder and more brittle than the metal used in gun parts. I have yet to have a cutter or a blade chip or break. In fact the sintered metal (carbide) is used in all types of industrial cutting tools, where they undergo tremendous heat and impact stress without breaking.

The rotors used in nuclear reactor turbines which have lots of long thin blades, that spin at high speeds under high heat 24/7 for years are also made of MIM.

Its all a matter of quality control, really it is.:)

[ugaarguy]

Zerstoerer, apology accepted.

I think one of the key things to remember with 1911s is that the design is public domain, so you have literally dozens of companies competing to seel their version of the same pistol. You have the Wilson, Nighthawk, Baer, Yost, etc offering the top end no compromise pistol at a top end price. Then you have the SA GI, RIA, High Standard, Armscor, etc offering the base model at a base price. In the middle you have Colt, Kimber, SA Loaded, S&W, and even Taurus now trying to offer the features of the custom guns for a price closer to a base gun; something has to give and MIM is one way to get a "custom" style part at a base model price. If the HK USP, SiG P Series, Glock, etc was public domain then you'd have the same three tiered base/factory custom/true custom competition with similar results. The 1911 is a proven design that works very well when made correctly; hence it's pushing 100 years of continuous production and copying. On the other hand the Luger died very quickly after WWII when it was no longer a service sidearm; the 1911 survived and flourished outside the military.

I have to tell you Zerstoerer, I do like the HK USP though. The Variant 1 with multi position, multi function, safety lever is very nice; it can be carried SA cocked and locked, or DA/SA with the decocker, all without modification. I also like the USP's 1911-esque grip angle - much nicer than a Glock in my hands. On the other hand we should remember that JMB's innovative design on the 1911 mainspring housing is the original modular backstrap. Like Correia said there are something like 15-20 major brands that are making top notch production pistols and we must each choose the one that fits our own needs and wants. After that we must acknowledge that pistols are machines, machines can fail, and we must test our own firearms to ensure that individual tool's reliability.

[Falconeer]

My understanding is there are no MIM parts in the Sig GSRs. I've only had mine out once so far (to the tune of 250 rounds) but it's definately a keeper. :)

[Whirlwind06]

If the HK USP, SiG P Series, Glock, etc was public domain then you'd have the same three tiered base/factory custom/true custom competition with similar results.

So how much longer until the glock 17 patent expires?
Can't wait to get me a Hi-Point made Glock :)

[Action_Can_Do]

Ugaarguy,
:eek: What?!?!?!?! I did not make an "unwarranted, personal attack on Correia! I made a small attempt at levity. I don't know Correia, so making a personal attack is beyond my ability. I also think 1911tuner would tell you being called a 1911 fan is hardly an insult.
Correia,
If you were indeed offended, I offer my apology.

Everyone Else,
Sorry for adding fuel to the flame, but I :cuss: can't stand being accused of something I didn't do. Hopefully the bad blood is all out and we can continue on the high road.

[Correia]

Huh? I'm not offended. Didn't even notice actually.

Guys, let's all go back to our thread. :)

[1911Tuner]

Zerstoerer..Say when.

As far as having to spend time and money with a smith to get the 1911s to feed modern ammo reliably...that's been the case in recent guns. The problem with the 1911 these days is that the lower-end examples are thrown together with drop-in this and that, and many aren't even close to print specs. If you could handle one that isn't worn out, and was properly built and within spec, you'd see a very different gun.

I have several original, unaltered USGI pistols ranging from 1912 manufacture to 1945...a 1916 and 1925 Colt commercial models that will all feed and function with modern hollowpoints and even 200-grain cast lead semi-wadcutters like they were specifically tuned for the stuff...and they'll do it from the old GI "Hardball Only" magazines...something that I'll be glad to demonstrate for ya if ya come for a visit.

The biggest problem with the 1911 is that it's so popular, and the market so huge...that everybody and their brother is vying for a piece of the pie. The other problem is that it doesn't lend itself to modern "Cookie Cutter" manufacturing methods...which is what it takes to make it affordable. To build a 1911 pistol correctly today...including all dimensional specs and with the proper materials...the cost would place it into the same category as the
higher end semi-customs...and that would mean only about 10% of the market. The producers of the "Volkspistol" 1911 know that the average buyer wants one mainly for nostalgia, and won't likely shoot the gun more than a box or two a year, if that much. The serious shooters either buy the Wilsons or the Baers, or they buy the pedestrian guns and immediately send them off to a smith for upgrades and enhancements. Simply put...the manufacturers know that they're essentially building a toy.

There was a time...and not so long ago...that this was neither the standard approach, nor was it necessary. I recall that it really started to go downhill in the early 70s. A Colt 1911 manufactured prior to about 1965 that didn't function perfectly out of the box was a rarity.

My beaters that run into the 10s of thousands of rounds without malfunctions? I've done nothing more than tweak'em to correct specs. No "Black Magic" or voodoo master pistolsmith tricks. Mainly just the plain, old tripod of reliability. Magazines...Extractor...Halfway decent ammo...and most of my ammo is awfully funky.

Open invitation. Come see/Come say!:cool:

[ugaarguy]

Action Can Do,

My apologies. In the midst of Correia being criticized for moderating the thread I interpreted your comment of "...you must be a 1911 fan." To be jab at him for trying to keep the thread focused on fixing a 1911, not saying 'junk it and get a better brand.' Sorry for the misinterpretation and subsequent unbased accusation. I forget that not everyone knows that Correia is a dealer who openminded on any quality pistol. No bad blood here from my perspective; hopefully none from yours either.

[Lone_Gunman]

This one incident is hardly a trend, but it makes me worship my SIGs that much more. Four of them over years and thousands of rounds and not a single breakage

SIG uses MIM parts too, so there is no reason to worship your SIG in that regard. It could happen to you too.

[MadMercS55]

I've found that new SIG's do indeed use MIM parts, in the P220/226/229, etc. But their failure rate is very low compared to other MIM weapons. However they do state clearly there are no MIM parts in the GSR series. The older SIG pistols also do not have MIM parts in them. I own many SIG's made in the early 80's and you can clearly see the difference in some of the parts, especially some of the internals, hammers, etc.

[deacon]

Got the GI back from Springfield and they did indeed replace the hammer....

It didn't live in the pistol long though, as Tuner sent me a steel Colt unit that dropped right in and works great...thanks again Johnny :)

Also, I had Springfield look at the canted front sight and gave my full permission to replace with a set of Mil-Spec sights. They did...what a difference from the stock GI pieces ! So I now have a GI, with Mil-Spec sights, and a honest-to-goodness Colt hammer...which has digested 200 rounds thus far without incident.

Thanks for all who gave input on this issue and keep up the good work !

[Ermac]

glad it worked out for you!


to the others - I think the easiest pistols to completely take apart are Glocks and the Beretta 92fs (if your not including the extractor).