C&R license questions


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rra_casper
August 14, 2006, 02:46 PM
I have recently become interested in getting a C&R FFL for the purposes of acquiring some cool old guns -- some with historical significance, and some that I just want to shoot. According to Wikipedia (dangerous, I know), the process and qualifications for getting one seems to be pretty easy. I do have a few questions about it, though. Here is the text from Wikipedia:

ATF will approve the application if the applicant:

* Is over the age of 21
* Is not prohibited from handling or possessing firearms or ammunition
* Has not violated the Gun Control Act or its regulations
* Has not failed to disclose information or facts in connection with their application
* Has premises for conducting business or collecting

I am alright with the first four...at least, I assume I am, since I have gone through my share of state background checks, and will be 21 in a couple months. I am not sure what the fifth one means, though. If I am just collecting and not selling, can "premises" be a house or apartment, or do you need something a little more "official?" It goes on to say:

The applicant must also certify that:

1. The business to be conducted under the license is not prohibited by State or local law in the place where the licensed premise is located
(I won't be conducting "business"...just buying, collecting and shooting old guns.)

2. Within 30 days after the application is approved the business will comply with the requirements of State and local law applicable to the conduct of the business
(Same as above.)

3. The business will not be conducted under the license until the requirements of State and local law applicable to the business have been met
(Ummm...?)

4. The applicant has sent or delivered a form to the chief law enforcement officer where the premises are located notifying the officer that the applicant intends to apply for a license.
(Does this mean I need to contact the chief of, say, Oregon State Police to let them know that I am applying for a license to collect guns?)

5. Secure gun storage or safety devices will be available at any place in which firearms are sold under the license to persons who are not licensees
(What is the definition of secure, who checks on it, and is it even necessary if I don't intend to sell them?)

Thanks for your help.

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Gordon Fink
August 14, 2006, 02:51 PM
Do a search, and you will find a wealth of information right here on the High Road. For a quick answer, though, your house or apartment will do just fine. :)

~G. Fink

Technosavant
August 14, 2006, 03:10 PM
I wouldn't go looking for such information on Wikipedia.

As long as you have a location (could be anything, from a residence to a specific building for housing the collection) that allows you to have firearms (not prohibited by laws or by rental agreements), you're good to go. C&R applicants don't need to worry about "business hours"- you aren't a business.

So, to answer your second set of statements:
1) So long as it is legal to have the particular guns you wish to collect on the premises, no worries. For example, a box-stock Yugo 59/66 is not legal in CA because of the grenade launcher.

2) Just make sure you are complying with any laws applicable to storage of firearms. For me, there are none, so a closet or corner is all I need to keep them. It's not the best way to do it (unsecure), but it is legal.

3) Again, comply with the law.

4) You simply need to mail a copy of the application to the CLEO of your area. He/She doesn't need to do anything about it, but you do have to notify that person. Presumably, if the person knows you are a lawless individual, he/she will contact the ATF with the concerns. In practice, many CLEOs just round-file that copy. It really doesn't concern them.

5) Who posted this crap on Wikipedia? While you can sell guns using the license, it is remarkably unwise to make a habit of doing it often. This, like 2 and 3, seem to apply more to 01 FFLs than to the 03 FFL (C&R collector).

Go to www.surplusrifle.com for some reliable information.

monsternav
August 14, 2006, 03:26 PM
I may mis-remember, but I thought they send one form out for both 03 and 01. There are some questions that definitely apply to 01 FFL's only.

Lone_Gunman
August 14, 2006, 03:27 PM
The Wikipedia information is a little screwy.

The C&R License is not a license to engage in the business of buying or selling firearms. It is a collector's license. That means you can buy firearms, and sell firearms, ONLY as they apply to your hobby of collecting. If you sell one of your C&R firearms, that is fine. You can even sell it for a profit. But if it starts to look to the ATF like you are in business (ie, making significant income) from your hobby, they will bust you for that, revoke your license, and put you in jail.

Your residence is all the premises you need.

The chief LEO is either your sheriff or police chief.

Questions like yours get asked several times a week. It would be helpful if we had a specific forum on THR that dealt with C&R issues.

Leatherneck
August 14, 2006, 03:40 PM
Questions like yours get asked several times a week. It would be helpful if we had a specific forum on THR that dealt with C&R issues. Way back when THR began there was a cry for such. Opinions were solicited and the powers that be decided that C&R topics could be handled in the other forums. I still would like such a forum.

TC

rra_casper
August 14, 2006, 04:00 PM
Whoops, sorry to be the stupid noob re-asking questions long since answered. Nevertheless, thanks for the information and I'll definitely be reading up on those links ASAP.
Still getting the hang of this forums thing...

AJ Dual
August 14, 2006, 04:16 PM
The C&R License is not a license to engage in the business of buying or selling firearms. It is a collector's license. That means you can buy firearms, and sell firearms, ONLY as they apply to your hobby of collecting. If you sell one of your C&R firearms, that is fine. You can even sell it for a profit. But if it starts to look to the ATF like you are in business (ie, making significant income) from your hobby, they will bust you for that, revoke your license, and put you in jail.

In all reality, this "screwy" Wikipedia info is right on the money.

What constitutes being "illegally in the business" with a C&R 03 FFL, or even without any kind of FFL is up to ATF interpretation. I haven't heard of anyone being railroaded over this, at least with a C&R license FWIW.

Generally, if all your sales are to "enhance" your collection, you're fine. i.e. Selling a lower quality gun to raise money to buy a better one, selling off duplicates to raise money to buy unique guns etc. So if any repeated or significant "profit" gets poured back into your collection, you're ok.

The rub is that there's no set number in Federal law or by the ATF. If all your wheeling and dealing is limited to 2-3 guns a year with other collectors, especially other C&R license holders, I'd expect no trouble. If you're buying up multiple C&R eligible SKS's and selling them in "'da hood" at 300% profit, you're in beauceaup trouble.

Where the line is in between these two extremes no-one will say.

Use your judgment.

A one-time "fire sale" of everything in your collection if you decide you don't want to be a collector anymore is fine too. In that case pocketing the entire profit is fine, and they spell that exception out.

ONE OTHER POINT TO NOTE:

The ATF is very persistent in sharing forms or info with all FFL's no matter what type they are. So if you're dealing with 03 C&R FFL paperwork, you'll see stuff for 01 commercial FFL's in the rules, and forms they send you that you won't need, nor can even legally use. You'll get things like the "Child Safety" required federal form, things explaining the inspection rules for Commercial FFL's, the entire CFR dealing with firearms regulations and laws, even though 70% of it doesn't pertain to C&R etc

You'll also get the quarterly ATF updates on detecting straw purchases, and how to keep proper 01 FFL records even though you're an 03.

So wade through it carefully, and don't freak out if you see something that seems overly strict. It's probably redundant 01 FFL info.

Technosavant
August 14, 2006, 04:40 PM
Dual has a good point: as a C&R collector, you will see the law packets, etc. that the other FFLs see. The Application to Amend a FFL is the same for an 01 and an 03, so you kind of have to pick carefully through the questions, and only answer the applicable ones.

The newer forms to renew the license does have a space where you are required to tell the ATF how many firearms (C&R firearms, not guns in general) you disposed of (sold) during the past three years. My guess is that if you list a high number (what counts as "high", I don't know), expect a phone call desiring a look at your bound book.

I think the line between collecting and dealing lies in the pattern of transactions. Did you tend to hang on to the guns you purchased for a while, trading or selling them off in ways that could be explained as building a collection? Or did you log in and out guns within a short time frame? It isn't likely that you bought a whole case of identical SKS rifles just so that you could pick out the one you wanted to keep and sell the rest within a week. That will look fishy.

rra_casper
August 14, 2006, 05:54 PM
Fair enough...it all makes pretty good sense, really.
Fortunately (sort of), I don't yet have the resources to get myself into too much trouble, as in the case-of-SKSs example. I'll be a one-at-a-timer for now, and even at that probably an infrequent one.

Lone_Gunman
August 14, 2006, 06:43 PM
I am going to stick by my comments that the Wikipedia story is misleading.

The problem I have with it is the use of the term "business". If you are engaging in firearms trading for the purpose of making money, a C&R license will get you in trouble.

As I said in my post it is ok to sell an occasional firearm. Its not OK to buy 100 surplus rifles from AIM and then resell them to 100 differnet people.

I have no doubt the ATF would have a problem with that kind of sale.

Lupinus
August 14, 2006, 07:37 PM
I wanna get mine when I turn 21, if nothing else for the discounts but buying an sks or two and what not mail order might be in order.

Just out of curiosity, does the discount at places like midway tend to cover most of their items or only certian ones?

Bruce333
August 14, 2006, 07:43 PM
Discounts at Midway (and others) covers most everything. Brownells won't discount gunsmithing tools. The discount varies with item some are 40-50%, others only 1-2%. I've already saved enough, on items I was going to purchase anyway, to make up for the cost of the license.

Lupinus
August 14, 2006, 07:49 PM
mainly I'm interested in reloading components since in the near future I'm gonna be buying quite a bit of them from midway with the exception of powder.

Lone_Gunman
August 14, 2006, 08:24 PM
You will save a TON of money at Midway on everything they have including reloading components.

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