Akins Accelerator,10/22 Bump Fire stock for 10/22


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Steelcore
August 14, 2006, 03:09 PM
This way cool.check it out!!!!!!!!


http://www.firefaster.com

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JesseL
August 14, 2006, 03:21 PM
Looks pretty cool, but the price is outrageous! $925-1185 for a 10/22 stock!
Regardless of what a real transferable full-auto 10/22 goes for, that is insane. I just don't see any way to justify that cost. Unless they've got an airtight patent on it, I expect we'll be seeing chinese knockoffs for $69.95 within the year.

toemag
August 14, 2006, 03:32 PM
First post here, a big hello to all.

That would be fun to try, Bumpfire is definately cheaper though.

Tony

freedom and guns
August 14, 2006, 03:43 PM
is alot cheaper and is not limited to 10/22's

EddieCoyle
August 14, 2006, 04:31 PM
I can't believe that'll be legal for long.

Fosbery
August 14, 2006, 06:05 PM
Bah, that's not legal here unfortunately. The law dosn't ban full auto by name it bans any firearm that can "fire more than one round without repeated pressure on the trigger" :(

Third_Rail
August 14, 2006, 06:11 PM
That isn't legal, as near as I can tell... how is it the BATFE doesn't know about this?


Personally, I wouldn't buy one, just because I don't like to stay in a Federal prison...


EDIT: Upon reading how it works, it's simply a recoil-reduction stock, based on design. Nice bonus of that is that it allows fully automatic firing. Don't kid yourself, though. It's not semi-auto, it's a modification to full-auto and will be legislated as such as soon as they're plentiful.

dmckean44
August 14, 2006, 07:02 PM
It's be a lot cooler if they a stock for the AR or Mini-14 instead.

JesseL
August 14, 2006, 07:10 PM
How would anyone word the hypothetical legislation to ban something like this? I can't see a way to phrase it without leaving more gaping holes :evil: or making casualties of a lot of conventional semi-autos :fire: .

The harder they work to ban politically vulnerable firearms, the more apparent it becomes that they are trying to apply technical regulations to their emotional issues. How else would we end up the BATF ruling that a shoelace is a machinegun (http://www.jpfo.org/shoestring.jpg)?

Domino
August 14, 2006, 08:57 PM
EDIT: Upon reading how it works, it's simply a recoil-reduction stock, based on design. Nice bonus of that is that it allows fully automatic firing. Don't kid yourself, though. It's not semi-auto, it's a modification to full-auto and will be legislated as such as soon as they're plentiful.


Eh, the ARF approved the design because they HAD TO, the design is NOT a machine gun. The laws are specific to what the Federal government considers full-auto fire. Kidding aside, it is still technically semi-auto otherwise the ATF would not approve it. The government has no choice but to allow it unless further legislation is pushed upon such a device. It is merely a device that aids to bump-firing, nothing more.

I am more than willing to bet that your prediction will not turn to be true. There is no current Federal law that can prohibit it and it is unlikely the Congress and the Senate are going to interupt their busy schedule to legislate some device. On the State level, it is another story. Sounds like you have some sort of disbelief about the whole thing that I don't really understand, it IS legal and it IS NOT a machine gun. Get over it.

Third_Rail
August 14, 2006, 09:11 PM
Read what I said again. By the exact letter of the law, I'd read it as the same as the infamous "Stutter Gun". In this instance, the trigger would be the shooter's finger, which then fires more than one shot in one single movement. With a stroke of a pen, the BATFE could change their opinion and jail anyone who bought one of those.

I've seen things like this before, but they were all already re-classified to MGs. I don't see why this is much different.


BTW, it is neat that they not only made it a simple conversion getting around current opinions of the BATFE, but also made it select-fire.

Domino
August 14, 2006, 09:31 PM
Read what I said again. By the exact letter of the law, I'd read it as the same as the infamous "Stutter Gun". In this instance, the trigger would be the shooter's finger, which then fires more than one shot in one single movement. With a stroke of a pen, the BATFE could change their opinion and jail anyone who bought one of those.

Well the BATFE could certainly try to make that case if it felt so inclined but, under the current law it didn't as the device is already ATF approved. I would also speculate that if the BATFE felt that it could make the case it probably aready would have done so. As far as I am aware, the definition of a machine gun is the following...

Machine gun- Any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manually reloading, by a single function of the trigger.

With this device the "trigger" is operated in a semi-automatic manner just like any other rifle. Since the device functions in this manner it is legal and is merely a bumpfire aid. Somehow, calling the shooters finger a "trigger" seems very inaccurate since it is NOT part of the firearm.

I am not familiar with the "Stutter Gun" and I would be interested to know more about it and why it was apparently banned or prohibited. Any links would be greatly appreciated.

Third_Rail
August 14, 2006, 09:35 PM
I was close, it's called a "Sputter Gun", not stutter.

http://stenguns.tripod.com/id12.html Bottom of the page.

Domino
August 14, 2006, 10:11 PM
Hmm, that doesn't appear to be the same thing. From what I can tell is that he eliminated the conventional trigger somehow in which the operators finger was subsituted and worked as such. With the Akin's device the semi-auto trigger and components and their functions remain unmodified and intact, so the same point cannot really be argued. They two weapons shouldn't even be compared and are not similar in any way that I can tell. Afterall, the device in question is not even a gun but a rifle stock.

Again I have to stress this point, "IF" this concept could be considered illegal under current law, why hasn't the BATFE stated such? it seems to be that the BATFE is very effecient about informing citizens about what could be considered illegal. According to the distributers, it has been approved and even patented. The "sputter gun" was never approved, and apparently the manufactuer was warned against producing it by some sort of government official. If this were the case with the Akin's device, why hasn't the same thing happened?

The answer is simple and already stated, because there is nothing illegal about it under current Federal Law. If I am wrong than I have no problem admiting it and I would welcome the correction, as of yet I have not seen anything to indicate that I am. ;)

MAKOwner
August 14, 2006, 10:26 PM
It's cool, very cool in fact, but $1000??? That has got to be gouging, how can it really cost 5 times the cost of the gun it fits on? Even if the mechanism is precision made and is what most would consider expensively made w/ great stuff, isn't $1000 still kinda ridiculous? I mean it's a stock w/ a few springs, some (hopefully) well made rails and bearings. $1000??? If they're tacking on development costs and stuff they need a business case to recoup that initial cost over a larger number of units or something, that price is too high.

I would really really like to buy one, but $1k is too much for my blood for a bump fire device. If it was $200-$300 I think I'd bite the bullet and buy one. Maybe they'll be able to make a second generation or something that is more streamlined for cost. Here's hoping, because I want one.

If a chinese ripoff is offered for $100 I'm on board as soon as possible before they're shutdown for patent infringement, lol

I can definitely see how it's technically legal, it has a trigger and it's only being fired once per trigger pull. I could see some fancy wrangling done by the BATF if this idea takes off and it is offered for many rifles though. Don't know what justification they'll use but honestly it doesn't have to make a whole lot of sense w/ them... If they had to they could append the definition of a machinegun to close this "loophole" as I'm sure they'll call it. Then again at $1000 this may stay a fairly niche product that doesn't get that popular with every bubba at the local gunshow.

Wonder if you could take one of those Muzzlelite bullpup stock things and build something similar to this mechanism yourself... Then most of the recipricating rifle would be concealed inside the stock and you could mount a reddot or something on the sight rail on the stock.

Mac Attack
August 14, 2006, 10:30 PM
If it was affordable it would be fun as hell to own. Could you imagine shooting it with one of the 100 round dumps. Who needs a class III?

swingset
August 15, 2006, 01:38 AM
It's pretty easy to bumpfire a 10/22, especially with a light trigger.

If you use my "bump fire device", you can run a 10/22 bumped from the shoulder very very easily, and my way costs $5 in material, and has the added benefit of not changing your stock and the device can be used on ANY semi-auto....shotguns, pistols, you name it.

If you haven't seen one, it looks like this:
http://www.localnumber69.com/temp/Bumper.jpg

The specs for making one:
http://www.localnumber69.com/temp/specs.jpg

Vid of it in use, 5 round aimed bursts from an AR:
http://www.localnumber69.com/temp/Aimed_Shoulder_Fire.mpg


BTW, figuring out the ATF's ruling on legalities with full auto is rather easy. If you get more than 1 shot per SINGLE pull of the trigger, it's an MG. With the stock in question, any bump fire device, or crank device, this is clearly not the case as your finger does pull the trigger each and every time.

The shoestring/AK method was ruled an MG precisely because it violated this simple definition of full auto. One pull produced more than one shot.

Very simple.

harvester of sorrow
August 15, 2006, 03:01 PM
That has got to be gouging, how can it really cost 5 times the cost of the gun it fits on?

If they're wrong with the pricing, you'll see them reduce prices over the next six months. I doubt we'll see that.

clange
August 15, 2006, 03:39 PM
With this device the "trigger" is operated in a semi-automatic manner just like any other rifle. Since the device functions in this manner it is legal and is merely a bumpfire aid. Somehow, calling the shooters finger a "trigger" seems very inaccurate since it is NOT part of the firearm.
Exactly. With the string they are saying the string is part of the gun, same as any other steel part. Thats why doing that is isnt legal.

This gun still fires one shot per trigger pull. Its still semi-auto. Its also stupidly overpriced.

'Card
August 15, 2006, 03:45 PM
*shrug*

As we used to say in the 82nd Airborne: "Full auto is for people who can't aim."

JesseL
August 15, 2006, 03:55 PM
Exactly. With the string they are saying the string is part of the gun, same as any other steel part. Thats why doing that is isnt legal.

I understand how the ATF reasoned that a string could be a machinegun under the wording of the law. I just picked it as an example of the absurdities that result when you pass stupid laws. I don't think any one can claim that calling a string a machinegun isn't absurd.

harvester of sorrow
August 15, 2006, 08:07 PM
"Full auto is for people who can't aim."

And aiming is for people who can't shoot full auto.:rolleyes: Shooting anything is fun. For some people, shooting full auto is MORE fun. There's nothing wrong with that. Whether we shoot benchrest, or full auto, or USPSA, or trap, or PPC, we all must stand together.

Justin
August 15, 2006, 08:15 PM
It's cool, very cool in fact, but $1000??? That has got to be gouging, how can it really cost 5 times the cost of the gun it fits on?

I've seen tricked out 10/22's set up for Team Challenge that cost $1,500-$2,000.

cslinger
August 15, 2006, 08:28 PM
I have known about this for quite some time now and had a chance to handle the preproduction wood stocked versions. Very ingenious and most definitely LEGAL at least at this point in time and like the other posters stated it would make virtually all semi-autos illegal if it was deemed illegal under current law as the shooters finger is actually pulling the trigger for each shot fired.

Now with the government officials we have I wouldn't be surprised to see this made illegal in the future in some way shape or form.

steelhead
August 15, 2006, 08:38 PM
Someone must have failed their business class.....

I will consider getting one when they figure out the proper price/volume formula. $200 would be a more reasonable start.

Don't Tread On Me
August 15, 2006, 08:44 PM
No, all the law boils down to is that a firearm MUST fire only 1 shot per trigger pull - not 2. This device does not make a person or a firearm fire more than 1 bullet per trigger pull.


It just makes it easier for you to pull the trigger faster. Which is legal.


Jerry Miculek can pull the trigger on his custom S&W pretty darn fast (7 shots in less than a second?)...does that mean his trigger finger is NFA?


There is nothing illegal about this unless the BATFE thugs decide to get more and more creative with their interpretations. I will agree though, that this device certainly pushes the limit of the law. Depending on your perspective, it either stretches the meaning of the law to the max, or it abides by it perfectly, thus giving us an example of what this law, as written can truly amount to.


Just because the government-thugs didn't think of this first doesn't mean it's the inventors fault. It's their fault. They wrote the law, and as its written, this is good to go.

cslinger
August 15, 2006, 08:48 PM
As for the pricing, why the hell not. If he doesn't sell at 1K then the price will lower. The draw/marketing of it is that 1k is ALOT cheaper then the 12K a Norrel 10/22 will set you back.

The guy put together a pretty ingenious, controllable, accurate, system that gives the shooter about 90% of the full auto experience. I believe he is also trying to build capital in order to build this for other guns.

Don't Tread On Me
August 15, 2006, 08:51 PM
OBTW, as for the whole shoe-string being a machine gun thing...the shoe string can be viewed as an illegal modification, because for that string trick to work, you must HOLD THE STRING DOWN. You're not pulling it over and over. You're not pulling the trigger over and over. The trigger becomes the loop of the string and you hold that down. While recoil is firing the weapon - you're just holding something down.


With this device, recoil is obviously what is making the rifle shoot that fast, but it is your finger that is physically pulling on the trigger each time.


The only interpretation that the BATFE could come up with is that you're not pulling the trigger, rather, the firearm is bumping into your finger instead, and that is a result of this device...as such an automation. That would be BEYOND the law in my opinion, but my opinion doesn't count. Only the filthy gavel-wielding thugs in robes get to make that decision.


This is about as borderline as you can imagine. If they came out with that interpretation...or any anti-bump-fire interpretation, then they'd be banning an act or method of shooting. It would no longer be the firearm itself and its parts of configuration , but not the door to banning technique would be in play.


Unless of course bump firing via thumb the old fashion way is OK, while bump firing via recoil reducing spring loaded systems is BAD. LOL.


I love it. I love the confusion and this sort of stuff. It is exactly what the government and BATFE deserve for their tyrannical legislation and policies. It is ultimately a victory for freedom, because it's just another reminder that no matter how hard they try, someone will always find another way.

harvester of sorrow
August 15, 2006, 08:56 PM
I will consider getting one when they figure out the proper price/volume formula.

Well, the beauty of a capitalist system is that they're only wrong if ALL the consumers feel that way.

Domino
August 15, 2006, 09:14 PM
They will sale a few at $1,000 no doubt, I would buy one if I had the disposable income at the time but I don't. I would pay that much for it for two reasons, 1.) it supports some pretty standup guys with a good idea 2.) because nobody else makes one. Even so, I think pricing them in the $500-600 range would make them sale like hot cakes.

steelhead
August 16, 2006, 02:36 AM
Well, the beauty of a capitalist system is that they're only wrong if ALL the consumers feel that way.


"ALL" is a mighty big word but more power to them if they can sell them for $1K. Perhaps, with such a markup, they will only have to move a couple units to cover their startup costs and R&D.

Here are the detractors to why I think they will not move a lot of them at that price.

1. From what I have read here, and on other boards, this is viewed as a really cool "gadget" but not a must have.

2. Using the iron sights is a little difficult when they are rapidly moving back and forth (granted some won't care because they will be smiling too much while watching the dirt/water fly). The usefullness of red dots, or other optics, will also be diminished/negated because of the movement of the receiver.

3. How well the optics will stand up (wear and tear) to that sort of movement is another unknown.

4. Full auto does get boring after awhile (loading mags is a pain, cost of ammo, burning barrels, etc.).

5. Those who really want it - can't afford it. Those that can afford it - probably aren't really that interested.

I would rather invest 1K in suppressing a 10/22 than purchasing a gadget of limited practical use. Drop the price and I will jump on the bandwagon.

At least no one, so far, has talked about what a great HD gun this will be:uhoh: :D .

Great idea:cool: !
Lots of cool/fun factor:evil: !
Price:scrutiny: .
Market will decide (I'll wait for the employee pricing and 0% loan offer):neener: .

jeepmor
August 16, 2006, 03:01 AM
At least no one, so far, has talked about what a great HD gun this will be

This would be great for home defense purposes...:neener: Sorry, couldn't resist.

I'm in the autos get boring fast camp. I go through plenty of semi auto rounds already, I don't think I want to step it up that much. The bump fire jig is pretty cool, but $1K for a stock that does it, not going to get rich that way, now if they were $200 bucks, I might consider one, but then again,
22LR is cheap.

jeepmor

Don't Tread On Me
August 16, 2006, 03:13 AM
It crossed my mind. But I'm not so certain that getting hosed by 10-15 .22LR's will have the same deep, devistating shock effect of a .30-06 or a 12ga slug hitting you.

One is like spraying spikes into someone, the other MOVES MEAT if you know what I mean. We're talking displacement here.


Not saying it wouldn't be ineffective, I'm just wondering what a drug-crazed 245lb rampaging male could take before going down. I've seen video of people getting shot multiple times with a .22LR...most walked away hurt.

steelhead
August 16, 2006, 03:34 AM
This would be great for home defense purposes... Sorry, couldn't resist. :)



Even if it successfully stopped someone, you would be crucified in the press. Not to mention the civil suit that you would lose.

Headline #1:

"last night a burglar was shot and killed by a homeowner using a shotgun."


Headline #2:

"last night a burglar was riddled with over 30 bullets by gun crazed homeowner using a machine gun"

ceetee
August 16, 2006, 09:34 AM
I can't get past this mental picture I have of an entire wall covered in clay pigeons slowly coming apart...

harvester of sorrow
August 16, 2006, 01:19 PM
One of the most common themes in the gun community at large and the NFA community specifically is an inventor/designer coming up with a great idea and then being swamped within the first year or two by so many orders that his or her business goes under because he or she can't deliver, which invariably leads to lots of hard feelings and a blackened reputation at best. I don't know about Mr. Akins, but a lot of people selling products in the gun community are hobbiests first and manufacturers second. Many of them even have "day jobs" that they depend on for their livelihood. It is possible that this pricing is simply intended to keep demand at a level they can supply. It is even possible that they don't WANT to have to make more stocks than they already are.

Although I see many people complaining online, I also see a lot who are ordering, too. I'm glad that innovators in the firearms industry are still willing to face this kind of condemnation to bring new products to us.

the naked prophet
August 16, 2006, 01:52 PM
I guess I don't understand the string thing. I thought the string was attached to the cocking handle (like say on an AK) and looped around the reciever and attached to your trigger finger, so that when you fired, the tension of the string pulling your finger forward would pull your finger off the trigger so you could just apply pressure with your finger and you would pull the trigger as soon as the gun was back in battery?

It appears from the discussion that the string was tied to the cocking handle and the trigger, and you pulled once on the string to cycle the trigger so in effect the string was the new trigger?

50 Freak
August 16, 2006, 04:06 PM
Should we be worried their telephone number doesn't work?

Mac Attack
August 16, 2006, 04:27 PM
If I had the money I would definately purchase a stock. Since my finances do not allow me to spend money on frivolous gadgets regardless of how cool they are I unfortunately will never own one at the opening price.

It's still cool as heck though.

R.W.Dale
August 16, 2006, 06:19 PM
That stock reminds me of those kits you could buy back in the 80's that made your Pontiac Feiro look like a Lamborghini.:barf:

Why does it seem like this kind of product is always geared twards 10-22 guys:fire:

The Drew
August 16, 2006, 06:27 PM
Don't worry everyone... it won't be too long before the BATFE classifies these stocks as machineguns, then nobody will have to worry whether they can afford one or not.

'Card
August 16, 2006, 07:07 PM
You guys could save yourself a lot of typing if you'd download the manual (available on the site in .pdf format) and read through it. The Firearms Technology Branch of the BATFE has already looked at this thing and approved it. It's pretty interesting reading.

Dionysusigma
August 16, 2006, 07:27 PM
Even if it successfully stopped someone, you would be crucified in the press. Not to mention the civil suit that you would lose.

Headline #1:

"last night a burglar was shot and killed by a homeowner using a shotgun."


Headline #2:

"last night a burglar was riddled with over 30 bullets by gun crazed homeowner using a machine gun"
Sad state of affairs when I have to agree with such a point... the lawsuit would be insane, and do no good.

But you've gotta admit--after reading each headline, which house would you definately never try to rob? :D

Justin
August 16, 2006, 08:06 PM
The guy has already had the product approved by the BATFE.

I hope he sells a million of these things and makes a fortune.

I don't understand why there seems to be so much nay-saying in the gun culture, especially about new products.

I saw the exact same thing when the Rohrbaugh was first announced. "Too small" "Too expensive" "Too much recoil in that small of a gun" etc.

But after that pistol was a success, a lot of the nay-saying went away.

I hope the same thing happens with Akin's device. I hope that his product proves to be high-quality and fun. I hope he finds a market, and I hope he realizes the American dream of making a buck by selling a safe and legal product.

Zundfolge
August 17, 2006, 11:38 AM
I don't understand why there seems to be so much nay-saying in the gun culture, especially about new products.

The ATF has us pretty well cowering in a corner don't they ... many in the gun culture eschew anything new (especially something like this) because the ATF has a habit of stomping kittens, shooting women with babies and burning down peoples' homes (with them in it) if there is any missing paperwork surrounding a gun related product.

Toss in the "curmudgeon" factor and there you have it.

benEzra
August 17, 2006, 02:13 PM
I don't understand why there seems to be so much nay-saying in the gun culture, especially about new products.
I think in this case, the fear is more along the lines of that which attended Olympic Arms' creation of an AR pistol in 7.62x39mm, which the BATFE used as an excuse to ban steel-core 7.62x39mm.

MisterPX
August 27, 2006, 12:40 PM
If he charged $500, people would complain that they'd only pay $200. If they charged $200, people would complain that they'd only pay $50.:rolleyes:

Anyhow, it's legal, and it simulates FA fire reliably. His design, his patent, he can sell them for whatever he wants, and they've been selling.

grislyatoms
August 27, 2006, 03:34 PM
Thanks for the link, that looks like fun.

$1000? I'll pass.

Vaportrail
August 27, 2006, 06:40 PM
Seems like something similar to this could be made at home out of an existing stock if a fellow was handy with tools and had a little imagination. Of course you couldn't sell them without violating the patent laws. I'd like to examine one of these. I bet you could make your own with a little trial and error.

Bigfoot
August 27, 2006, 07:37 PM
"Full auto is for people who can't aim."


I went to thier forum to read up a little. Apparently the trigger finger rests on a couple of stops to enable bumpfiring. If the trigger is pulled with the finger positioned below those stops it fires semi-auto only. Nice.

With the gun sliding on rails within the stock I'm wondering how accurate it is in semi-auto mode.

For sighting while bumpfiring, daytime visable lasers (green) are cheap enough now.

Don't Tread On Me
August 27, 2006, 09:40 PM
Whatever his price is...the market will correct it for him. If he sells them and is backordered..the price might go UP. If they don't sell well, or they realize that could double their profit by lowering the price a bit - the market has spoken. There's always a sweetspot.


I'm glad this is legal. It is a spit in the face of the idiotic gun legislation we have in this nation. It exemplifies exactly how stupid it is to try and ban things - in part because, there will always be different meanings, methods and approaches to everything. It is futile to try. Not only because of semantics and legal speak - but because of the will of the people.


The PEOPLE want FULL AUTO. And the people should have it!! Like they did, before the 1930's.

Bigfoot
August 27, 2006, 09:40 PM
I couldn't sit and watch preseason football since this darned thing was on my mind. I wanted to know how stable the gun is mounted in the stock for accuracy reasons.

I found the patent application http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6101918.html No info on the 10-22 version but some might like to see the plans for the SKS and Mac-90 versions.

I then found a fan site dedicated to the 10-22 unit. http://www.acceleratorfan.com/home.htm

Here's the picture of the mechanism mounted on the reciever and how it screws to the bottom of the stock. Stable, I doubt it. I'm thinking it's a bullet hose even on semi-auto.

sam59
August 28, 2006, 11:23 AM
That thing is just plain ingenious. I really wish the guy the best of luck. I am willing to bet he put a lot of blood, sweat and tears into creating that. I am sure the tears came during the BATF process of approval.

the naked prophet
August 28, 2006, 01:26 PM
I don't think it would be inaccurate. Probably not match-rifle accurate, but no less accurate than a decent plinking .22 rifle. In the firing position, the rifle is fairly secure (though it can move backwards) and as long as you have sight alignment, it should hit where it's aimed.

mopar92
June 19, 2008, 08:07 PM
Well, first of all, nice website guys.... Secondly. I want a 10-22 "full auto" but not the $8,000+ price tag. I love my 10-22's. Without strapping some hideous device to the stock, or, a string, or shooting from the hip... this IS a good price to somebody like me. I weigh all options and if the stock works like the videos show.... it should be an excellent piece for the time being. Has anybody personally shot an Akins Accelerator? Thanks guys...:)

mopar92
June 19, 2008, 08:09 PM
Can you still buy legally the AA stock??? I see this thread is very old...

TexasRifleman
June 19, 2008, 08:11 PM
ATF ruled it illegal, I believe the company went out of business completely.

There was talk of taking it all to court to fight it out but I don't think that ever went anywhere.

mopar92
June 19, 2008, 08:15 PM
I guess their site is old, ot there is some small details hidden.. Oh well. Thanks.

http://www.chaffeearms.com/html/Accessories.html

TexasRifleman
June 19, 2008, 08:28 PM
Here is some on the lawsuit, as of March 08.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2008/03/05/akins-accelerator-inventor-sues-united-states/

Here is some posting from the CEO of the company, from December 07

http://www.saysuncle.com/archives/2007/12/03/akins_accelerator_update-7/

MartinBrody
June 19, 2008, 09:04 PM
Illegal...the ATF reversed an earlier ruling and determined this is a machinegun.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=240357

http://firefaster.com/
IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT
ATF DECIDES THE AKINS ACCELERATOR™ TO BE A MACHINEGUN

Akins Group Inc. regrets to announce that the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) has reversed its position and has decided the Akins Accelerator™ to be a machinegun conversion kit, thereby subjecting it to strict regulation under the Gun Control Act (GCA) and National Firearms Act (NFA).

ATF rescinded its previous determination that the Akins Accelerator™ was not subject to the GCA or NFA (see http://www.firefaster.com/documentation.html). Attorneys for the Akins Group Inc. are seeking reconsideration by ATF of its new position. In the interim, any sale, transfer, or return of the Akins Accelerator™ must be suspended. Akins Group Inc. will advise further after meeting with ATF.

Akins Group Inc. has received no instruction as to the disposition of units in customer hands. Please refrain from public speculation and emotional responses and allow our Attorneys to advocate for everyone's best interests.

mopar92
June 19, 2008, 10:46 PM
Next question, and I hate to ask this, because I am sure this is one of those annoying 1,000 times per month questions... but I would like to suppress one of m 10-22's. Would it be better to just buy one done? Or, send mine off?

mopar92
June 19, 2008, 10:47 PM
Did they ever even get to release any of these stocks???

Trebor
June 19, 2008, 11:41 PM
Did they ever get to release any of those stocks?

Oh yeah, they sold a bunch, then ATF ruled that it was a MG and confiscated the stocks or at least the springs that made them work. The owners were then just out the purchase price with, I believe, no refunds and no recourse.

Take this as a cautionary tale for NFA related stuff if it "seems too good to be true."

Trebor
June 19, 2008, 11:48 PM
... but I would like to suppress one of m 10-22's. Would it be better to just buy one done? Or, send mine off?

I can't answer your technical question. I just want to make sure though that you are familiar with the Federal regs regarding manufacture or purchase of suppressors. Also be aware that some states ban them entirely.

Just a comment that you'll need to check the law before going too far with your plans.

mopar92
June 19, 2008, 11:55 PM
Thanks guys... well, the fact is... Sadly, as bad as I hate to say it, that Akins stock probably does make it a full auto... sadly. I can't see how they could consider that a bump fire....:(

RyanM
June 20, 2008, 12:10 AM
Easiest way to make it a bump fire is take out the spring, seperate the stock and foregrip, and attach the foregrip solidly to the gun. Push forward with support hand while pulling trigger. Identical to bump-firing from the shoulder.

mopar92
June 21, 2008, 12:17 AM
Interesting... a good friend of mine and I had lunch today. He is an Attorney and a huge gun freak. He knows local and federal laws pretty well. He and I were just mocking up situations. He is NOT suggesting I or anybody do this... However, we joked that if you took an electric motor, and a cam lobe, and placed it in the trigger guard area, and pulled the "trigger" with the device... it would fire as quick as the action could cycle. The gun itself is a semi automatic... the device cant be clamped, attached, fixed to, or part of the weapon... slip it in, push the button, and it's full auto. He said it would be hard to beat, but they could easily rule it out... it was an interesting lunch if nothing else...;)

TexasRifleman
June 21, 2008, 12:20 AM
He said it would be hard to beat, but they could easily rule it out... it was an interesting lunch if nothing else...

That has been looked at. From the ATF viewpoint the button that turns the electric motor on is now the "trigger" so it's still an illegal machinegun because a single action of the new "trigger" makes the gun fire more than once. Someone tried such a device and it got pooped on.

Can't remember the details on it, maybe someone else will. It's been a good while, late 80's maybe? Was fit to a Mini14 seems like, if I remember, but as you describe it didnt' attach to the rifle, you just held in in your hand in such a way that it fit in the trigger guard.

mopar92
June 21, 2008, 12:25 AM
Texas, yeah, he stated that he thought (opinion) that if it were a device that just so happened to fit in the guard, it Might get away with it... just maybe. But this was a just maybe conversation. Because when they (yeah when) they confiscate the "device", the rifle itself is in fact a brand new never ever been apart pr modified in any way rifle.... Makes you think though ehh? :)

His point was that if you found the Tiger Woods of trigger man... he could fire 650 rounds per minute with that stock gun. I know that's NOT going to happen, but his point is, if a man could pull it that fast, the rifle is still stock. The device would be the " lightning man". And you could not punish by law a man who could pull a trigger 650 time a minute... again, unrealistic, but interesting... right?

TexasRifleman
June 21, 2008, 12:28 AM
Because when they (yeah when) they confiscate the "device", the rifle itself is in fact a brand new never ever been apart pr modified in any way rifle..

Doesn't matter. The ATF in the past has ruled devices as machineguns and possession of them a crime even if they were not attached to a rifle.

Here's a whole thread on that mess......

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=163966

Unfortunately we're dealing with an agency that, once they decide to come after you, will not stop until they get you.

mopar92
June 21, 2008, 12:31 AM
Pic no workie for me... Don't get me wrong, I am not into making the next big illegal or legal thing... but I do like to think. How the hell is a dowel and a "stock" legal to bumpfire then? That's just a very crude electric motor driven trigger puller right? :) I'd love to find somebody who has actually made a pegboard actually work all day any day... I've always found them to be cheesey and occasionally working for 6-10 rounds...

TexasRifleman
June 21, 2008, 12:36 AM
Yeah pic didn't work for me either so I just linked the old thread.

If they can rule anyone in possession of a 14 inch shoestring a felon they can pretty much do whatever they want.

mopar92
June 21, 2008, 12:43 AM
I hear about this shoestring trick... I am not in the loop evidently... Thanks for any pics or information. Thank You.... Good stuff.... thanks for your input.

Semmerling
June 21, 2008, 03:43 PM
IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT
ATF DECIDES THE AKINS ACCELERATOR™ TO BE A MACHINEGUN

Akins Group Inc. regrets to announce that the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) has reversed its position and has decided the Akins Accelerator™ to be a machinegun conversion kit, thereby subjecting it to strict regulation under the Gun Control Act (GCA) and National Firearms Act (NFA).

ATF rescinded its previous determination that the Akins Accelerator™ was not subject to the GCA or NFA (see http://www.firefaster.com/documentation.html (http://www.firefaster.com/documentation.html)). Attorneys for the Akins Group Inc. are seeking reconsideration by ATF of its new position. In the interim, any sale, transfer, or return of the Akins Accelerator™ must be suspended. Akins Group Inc. will advise further after meeting with ATF.

Akins Group Inc. has received no instruction as to the disposition of units in customer hands. Please refrain from public speculation and emotional responses and allow our Attorneys to advocate for everyone's best interests.

mopar92
June 22, 2008, 12:58 AM
Thanks, Keep us updated... I sure hope they fight it...

DoubleTapDrew
June 22, 2008, 05:02 AM
I'm glad I didn't buy one of those stocks. Poor customers are stuck with a $1000 polymer stock and no spring to make it work. I thought it was a low blow that they ruled it legal, then recinded it and changed their mind after he'd been selling them. Of course when you promote something as a "loophole to the 86 ban" on the website, it may have irked them (not that I agree with retaliation for that).
Long road to hoe to get the registry reopened. I'd love a Norrell trigger pack, but not for $10,000 or whatever they go for.

Bill Akins
June 27, 2008, 08:08 AM
Gentlemen.

I have filed two separate suits against the ATF for their 2006-02 ruling.
One in the Federal court of claims in Wash D.C. and one in Federal district court in Florida. Both suits are currently pending. Rather than take the time to post it all here. Simply google up "Akins files suit against ATF", and "Akins files second suit against ATF". Unfortunately, I cannot comment on any of the specific particulars of these suits under the advice of my attorney so I cannot answer or debate any questions specific to the particulars of either suit. Please do not ask me to. Akins Group Inc is now dissolved. But I became the successor in interest for Akins Group before it dissolved and I retain the patent. I am fighting this injustice not only for myself and former customers, but for all our firearm rights.

boredelmo
June 27, 2008, 08:18 AM
Good luck to ya Mr Atkins.

ScottsGT
June 27, 2008, 12:36 PM
Bill,
Welcome to THR!! Good luck with your law suit. If they ever go back into production (legally) I'll be getting one.

Picard
June 27, 2008, 12:49 PM
Great job Bill. Thanks for coming to the High Road and telling us what's going on with the issue. If this stock is illegal, I can imagine that bumpfiring a firearm would also be illegal, since that is essentially what it is. I hope that you win your case. Keep on fighting the good fight.

fletcher
June 27, 2008, 01:08 PM
Good luck with your fight, Bill.

LaEscopeta
June 27, 2008, 01:39 PM
As others have said, welcome to THR, that’s for posting notice of your suits, and good luck in court.

I understand you can’t talk about the case and why. But part of the outcome I would like to see is the court punishing BATF and the director for capricious and incompetent use of their authority. By first declaring the device legal and then, after a significant investment by Akins Group Inc in money, time and opportunity cost, they caused harm (a tort) not only to the company but tho the economy in general and the American spirit of entrepreneurship. I am generally against how much litigation we have nowadays, and I know any payment by BATF will be passed on to us tax payers, but people in the government need to know they can’t do stupid things that hurt the people and get away with it scot free. Maybe the court could rule the Director and all BATF employees involved in this screw up go on national TV and say “Not only am I not smarter than a 4th grader, 1st graders give me a run for it…”

ctdonath
June 27, 2008, 03:04 PM
The Akins Accellerator is a prime example of the "common" issue unclearly addressed in Heller: something very new, distinct from other classic/common designs, banned before it ever had any chance of becomming "common" and thus never will be (Mr. Akins' future legal triumph aside).

Sounds like Heller just opened up a new legal channel for you, sir.

DoubleTapDrew
June 27, 2008, 04:46 PM
Welcome to THR! Good luck fighting it and I hope for a positive outcome rather than making everyone register or forefit their index fingers.
I'll be lining up to buy one if it goes our way.

Pigspitter
June 27, 2008, 09:02 PM
This is darn near epic thread necromancy right here.

STV_Keith
August 6, 2008, 12:35 PM
Glad to hear you're still fighting Bill! I will love to one day again use my Akins Accelerator. :)

kcmarine
August 6, 2008, 02:32 PM
Any way we can help you, Mr. Akins? Legal fees, etc.?

mopar92
November 17, 2008, 11:37 AM
I guess it's toast.... I don't hear anything new about the stock...

Tarvis
November 17, 2008, 11:56 AM
Where is that pic of the zombie that says something about resurrecting a dead thread...

mopar92
December 12, 2009, 03:38 PM
I'm really digging up the dead thread now... did their second appeal get killed?

RestrainingRetaliation
September 2, 2010, 01:47 PM
Official 4 Year Bump

Brian Williams
September 2, 2010, 02:27 PM
Official next post CLOSE, Open a new one if there is anything new.

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