Speaking of anti-gun teachers


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Oleg Volk
August 15, 2006, 02:29 AM
http://olegvolk.net/gallery/d/16227-2/revolver-shotgun1476.jpg

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The Guy
August 15, 2006, 02:43 AM
Good one Oleg! I will have to show my mom next time she is in a kidding mood!

P.S., I like your stuff in the Champaign County Rifle Association newsletter. i like your self pick w/the AR and camera.

www.gunssavelife.com for all of those who don't know. The are the ones who put up the pro-firearm burma shave style billboards next to the interstates in Illinois (mostly near Champaign-Urbana).

kentucky_smith
August 15, 2006, 08:12 AM
I'm a high school social studies teacher. Yesterday, I had the kids list words they thought of when they think of history.

One kid's response: John Browning.:p He even had the Browning Buck symbol on his notebook.

I love eastern Ky.

BTW. The kids all love the "The M1 Does My Talking" poster I have up in the room. :D

Zen21Tao
August 15, 2006, 09:07 AM
Great poster as usual Oleg. Here is my first poster attempt. Maybe you can take it and make something better out of it.

http://img83.imageshack.us/img83/8011/gunpostergk6.jpg

sm
August 15, 2006, 10:11 AM
Oleg-

Yes!!



Zen21Tao-

Very Nice! I would not change a thing.


Strong messages on both.

Oleg Volk
August 15, 2006, 10:27 AM
Zen21Tao -- AWESOME!

Technosavant
August 15, 2006, 10:54 AM
Good one to both Oleg and Zen21Tao.

The schoolteachers tend to sit around and swap propaganda, and even "conservative" schoolteachers don't really understand the issue. A relative of mine who knows my enthusiasm for firearms was trying to tell me that "there's no reason for people to have assault rifles." She's generally in favor of RKBA, but the entire environment conditions them against the rights of the people.

Henry Bowman
August 15, 2006, 11:17 AM
Some teachers may be insulted (most people are when you point out that they have a closed mind). But it's really aimed at parents, anyway.

Nice work, Oleg. You've been busy. ;) Zen21Tao, too.

TallPine
August 15, 2006, 11:21 AM
I'm confused... how come that revolver doesn't have a cylinder release...???

mattf7184
August 15, 2006, 11:23 AM
Nice posters guys! :)

Oleg Volk
August 15, 2006, 11:26 AM
The image was reversed left to right to make it better visually. I can retouch it to add a cylinder release if it really bothers people.

Brian Williams
August 15, 2006, 11:31 AM
Oleg, For some reason I am not seeing your pic???

sm
August 15, 2006, 11:34 AM
Hey, I am tickled to see Wood & Blue, A Skeet gun, Black&White...for the most part...

Leave Oleg and Zen21Tao alone - I'm grinning ear to ear. :D

Oleg Volk
August 15, 2006, 11:38 AM
sm,

I am sure that even seeing your teeth scares the antis. You might want to conceal that grin to avoid charges of disturbance of peace...

silverlance
August 15, 2006, 11:39 AM
and i want a streetsweeper and several saturday night specials =)

Geno
August 15, 2006, 11:41 AM
I persistently say to my graduate education students that, "I'll give up my rights to keep and bare arms right after you give up your rights to free speech, free expression & free association."

I also tell them persistently what a backside of a horse M. Moore is. He plants ideas of violence into impressionable kids' minds, then when they act on it, he and his fellow perverts try to take our guns. Frankly, I think Moore and the other perverts in Hollywood should be jailed for conspiracy to incite violence. But again, free speech...

Rant button off.

Doc2005

sm
August 15, 2006, 12:19 PM
Oleg,

Civil Disobedience is what I call it - don't much care for what the anti's have to think or say.

...but you knew that.

:D

KMBRTAC45
August 15, 2006, 12:41 PM
Being from the U.P. of Michigan(now living in Az), all of my teachers were very pro-gun and pro-hunting. On opening day of deer season(Nov 15) school was CLOSED:neener: .

XD Fan
August 15, 2006, 01:26 PM
I am a public high school literature teacher, and I wish with everything in me that I could take deep offense at Oleg's poster. I can't; it is too close to the truth. I am blessed to teach in Southwest Missouri where hunting and firearms are an important part of Ozarks culture, but when I attend education conferences or take graduate classes, I am appalled at how reality based Oleg's poster is.

I persistently say to my graduate education students that, "I'll give up my rights to keep and bare arms right after you give up your rights to free speech, free expression & free association."

Thanks for getting the message out there. Also might be worth saying that right after we give up our right to keep a bear arms, they will be giving up their rights to free speech, expression, and association. Once our right to defend and protect ourselves is deminished, the others are in dangerous peril as well.

Euclidean
August 15, 2006, 01:46 PM
I teach math to freshmen. I am insulted. I am more pro 2A than the glut of the High Road, opposing all restrictions and registrations on personal firearms. If I were king and you had the money and wanted to buy it, you could order an M249 off the internet and have it shipped to your door.

Teachers are just like the military or the police or the media or anyone else, yes there's a lot of us who are ignorant of the facts, but only in proportion to the general population. I refuse to ask students questions about whether or not they have guns at home, for example. Such an image does a disservice and creates a false stereotype.

On The High(?) Road I've seen my profession called universally incompetent, greedy, left wing, socialist, fascist, and brain washers. It's no wonder I can't find any pro rights and pro education candidates.

The hard reality is that less people in this country give a damn about education than there are people who give a damn about their second amendment rights. And there are many of us who fight for both despite the odds.

But I guess that's not good enough for The High Road.

mattf7184
August 15, 2006, 02:04 PM
As someone who has been involved/is involved in education (secondary and post-secondary) and working with my father who is a math teacher for 30+ years, I have met my share of teachers. A pro-2A teacher is rare and more often than not (especially in my location) most of the faculty for the school board are antis.....

They may be uninformed but i'm going to say that teachers in general tend to lean towards the left. Most of the right leaning teachers I have met have been ex military fwiw.

sm
August 15, 2006, 02:12 PM
I am a Older returning College Student.

I am fully aware of the "restrictions" many instructors are "under" due to University Policies.

These can vary with our members on this Forum due to Political Climates around the country.

My former College, was very "strict" due to Politics. Still, I had a very anti-gun instructor, her views were "expressed". She got by with this whereas a pro-gun instructor would not.

Current College, a smaller one, is more "free" of Politics, and expression of ALL viewpoints - for or against firearms, or political views - you name it.

I mean we often speak of hunting or shooting in class, and yes we have had really great interaction of various viewpoints without "fear" of instructor or student getting into trouble.

Former College - me being me - I rebelled.

IF that Instructor could bring a Gun lock to class to "promote gun locks" then by golly I can use gun locks to secure a fire extinguisher to promote how stupid the idea is.

I can express my viewpoint how if that trash can is on fire, how long it will take for pulling the fire alarm to get a response and the fire put out. How calling 911 will take time as well- or how long it takes to remove a "lock" to use a tool to 'extinguish" an immediate threat.

IMO, We are not painting with a broad brush Educators in a negative manner.

We are expressing In-effective Education of Gubmint, Politics, and Tryanny of persons - by persons no matter what their profession may be.

Be it LEO, Educator, News Reporter, Grocery Clerk, Hardware Store worker, Gas Station owner, Drug Store owner...

Take Oleg's poster and change the wording to reflect the "thing" in the poster....

To many persons a hand axe is....
To many persons a one gallon gas can is...
To many persons a box of Sudaphed is...
To many persons a Kitchen knife is...
To many persons a box of kitchen matches is...

Crosshair
August 15, 2006, 02:17 PM
I like yours Zen21Tao. Only problem is that it doesn't blow up well, too pixilated. Better than I could probably do though.

History Prof
August 15, 2006, 02:32 PM
I teach math to freshmen. I am insulted.

On The High(?) Road I've seen my profession called universally incompetent, greedy, left wing, socialist, fascist, and brain washers. It's no wonder I can't find any pro rights and pro education candidates.

Hey Eucldean,

I often get annoyed when teachers are universally lumped in with the lefties, but I don't defend the profession. I only point out that people shouldn't generalize because there are many of us who are pro-RKBA, conservative, libertarian, etc. HOWEVER, as I often point out to my students, there is a reason for stereotyping - because stereotypes are often based on fact. The last statistic I saw for college professors in general is nearly 85% self-identify as liberal, and only 15% self-identify as conservative. I have no idea what the stats are for K-12, but even in my small rural conservative town where most of my college teaching colleagues are conservative, our local k-12 is populated by the left. My daugher and her friends often complain to me about how their HS history teacher glorifies Clinton and the Brady Bunch. They keep asking me to debate the guy....

Oleg Volk
August 15, 2006, 02:36 PM
I am a teacher. I work at a pro-RKBA school. But most teachers aren't pro-RKBA, which is why I phrased it as I did. No offense intended.

the naked prophet
August 15, 2006, 02:48 PM
I start teaching one week from today. I'm teaching a junior-level ceramic engineering class. If it wasn't for my university's silly no-guns policy, I'd be carrying in class.

I do have to say though that I believe the government should not be in charge of schools. There should be no public schools. Why? For one thing, the schools say what the government wants them to say - teach kids to be good little subjects; don't argue with authority, don't bother learning the constitution, what rights you have are the rights I give you, etc.

For another thing, the education level has decreased drastically. Before public schools, adolescent children were reading The Republic while plowing - now how many college graduates could understand it? Schools were available back then, and after elementary school, you were ready to get a job, maybe after some apprenticing. After high school, you were well educated. You could go to college if you wanted to be highly educated.

But nowadays, parents don't even tell their kids the basics - after high school, a kid is approximately as educated as a four year old with good parents! College today is approximately the same thing as elementary or grammar school from 100 years ago. Except that it takes until the age of 21-22 to get there, instead of 8 or 10. So you've basically wasted 10-12 years of everybody's life to indoctrinate them for the government.

I think public schools should be ended. Let the kids spend time with their parents, and vice versa. Parents can teach their kids, and neighborhoods can band together to get a math teacher, a spelling teacher, a history teacher...

Of course, if public schools are ended, there goes my paycheck. But I have the equivalent of a mediocre high school education from 100 years ago, and that puts me above 3/4 of the population. And if people don't have to pay for an inefficient, ineffective education system, that's a lot of money freed up for parents to pay for a real education (or more frivolous spending - both are good for the economy) which means I can probably get a better job, assuming I can teach and don't just have my job because it's a government job.

Autolycus
August 15, 2006, 03:39 PM
Sadly the majority of my teachers were anti-gun. They had no clue as to how things worked in the real world. A lot of the universities are in relative seclusion from the big urban areas and the students live in a town that caters to them. If you have ever been to a college town you realize that the only reason for the towns better existence is the college. Without the college it would just be a small town with little fanfair. In an urban area the school acts as the same and the neighborhood is just a neighborhood.

The students than get the impression that the world will cater to them. It is rediculous how some of these students think that they are the center of the universe and they can act like *******s. In the last school I was at the students would just throw their empty beer bottles on the street and keep walking. Nobody cared. They would stay up al night drinking and snorting lines of coke, this was a particular frat, and then drag their stereo onto the street so they could sit outside. Nodbody cared. It gets to the point where you realize that they are just ignorant to the fact that in the real world that behavior will be frowned upon.

JesseJames
August 15, 2006, 04:36 PM
I hear you the naked prophet.
I am 100% for school vouchers so kids can choose the school that they go to. It's their education and futures for crying out loud! Isn't school about their education in the first place???
I am by training an art major. I took only one art class in high school and that was it. Completely turned me off of art all together. The teacher just sat at her desk and knitted a sweater. There was no curriculum to speak of, it was basically a study hall. Pathetic.
Did a stint in the military. Got out. Hmmm. What to do. I'll give art another try! Yessiree! It'll be different this time! It's college, well, community college, but it'll be different this time!
WRONG.
The art world is full of socialists and communists, and general whackos. I should've gone into industrial design now that I think about it. Could be designing cars and working alongside engineers.
Sorry, rant over.

Euclidean
August 15, 2006, 06:24 PM
Stuff like this really makes my blood boil.

I didn't get my pro 2A views from my parents, and I didn't get them from internet forums either. Althought it is refreshing to see there are others who think this way who have developed the ideology, the core value can only come from within. My family is yellow dog Democrats.

I came to the conclusion that gun control is irrational if not downright evil via critical thinking and research skills. One of the things I learned in school and refined at the university level was how to make a logical argument, i.e. how to "prove" something, and just as important how to realize a proof was flawed.

Egads, a drooling moron who attended public schools and went to a state university came to a logical conclusion over a period of time by analyzing the evidence. Public schools can't be to credit though. Nope.

The left wants me to to treat firearms like some kind of epidemic the poor suffer from. The right opposes my salary increases and cuts my retirement and calls it a "voucher system". The libertarians would have me thrown into the street and shot.

I agree there's a lot wrong with the educational system. For one thing education is not a legal power of the federal government. For another, the holy grail of achievement is standardized testing.

The district I work for is considered "average" because three hispanic students on campuses I don't even work on failed their standardized tests. Never mind the fact we nailed 24 out of the 25 criteria. The public doesn't care about that because they don't care about education.

You want to save money? Cut the federal regulations. 30% of the public school faculty in the state of Texas at last count is administrative.

Public schools are like highways, post offices, and municipal owned utilities: it is called infrastructure. Every society I've ever heard of had some sort of educational system. Primitive societies of course restricted it only to the rich.

And that's the direction people want to take us in. What good is it for people to have rights when they don't understand the concept of a right? How can we expect people to support the second amendment if they are ignorant? It is ignorance which leads to the opposition of our right to bear arms.

I think the education system is horrible. I'm glad to see there are some who have followed me into the belly of the beast hoping to affect change some day, some how. There's a few people here and there who aren't in education who do try to help, they are most often the parents who actually bother to return your phone calls. But the great masses are merely critics without a viable, desirable, or superior alternative who are looking to line their pockets at my personal expense.

And I will defend the profession to the death, even if I despise the circumstances under which it exists. One thing I did take from my father is that if you do what's right, you're gonna make a hell of a lot of enemies.

Henry Bowman
August 15, 2006, 10:15 PM
We're not your enemy, Euclidean. There are lots of reasons why we need to pay attention to what our kids are learning -- from us, from others, at home, and elsewhere. This poster addresses one of them. That doesn't exclude others, but it is one that is relevant and topical to the theme of this forum.

mountainclmbr
August 15, 2006, 10:21 PM
Will Art lock this one as a "personal problem"?

XD Fan
August 15, 2006, 10:45 PM
I think the education system is horrible. I'm glad to see there are some who have followed me into the belly of the beast hoping to affect change some day, some how. There's a few people here and there who aren't in education who do try to help, they are most often the parents who actually bother to return your phone calls.

I am with you on this one Euclidean. There are so many problems in American public schools, but I vow to spend all my energy trying to make a positive difference in the lives of the kids in my sphere of influence.

Before public schools, adolescent children were reading The Republic while plowing

I have to object to this argument against public schools. Certainly there were a few very gifted adolescents that did this kind of thing, but they were the exceptions. Abraham Lincoln might have done something like this, but he was exceptional. Until public schools became the norm, America experienced (as did most countries) incredibly high illiteracy rates. That has been changed in large part due to our public schools. Do they have lots of problems? Emphatically, YES! Are they contributing good things to our society as well? Also, YES!

All this being said, ya'll should see the looks of horror on the faces of some of my colleagues when they discover that a lover of art and literature (namely me) can also be a fanatical supporter of the RKBA and even owns a handgun.

the naked prophet
August 16, 2006, 11:53 AM
XD fan, I have to disagree with you. Illiteracy in the US was the lowest in pre-public-school America (if you exclude the segments of society which were forbidden from reading, ie slaves). At the beginning of the school era, kids went to school because it was a chance to make a new beginning, a chance to get something better than their parents had. They wanted to succeed and schools gave them a chance. Now, it's a requirement to go to school, and it's little more than babysitting and good-little-sheeple indoctrination. The children who want to succeed (regardless of "intelligence") use it as an opportunity to learn, but they are terribly hindered by the system which throws them in with everyone else who desparately wants to avoid learning at all costs. The children who don't want to learn just make it more difficult for everyone who does want to learn. So... the kids who want to learn, do learn despite the difficulties posed by public schools, and the kids who do not want to learn, don't learn despite the ridiculous amount of cash we throw at them.

How is that different than having no public schools? The kids who want to learn can go to a library, or the neighbor's home school classes. I think a library is one of the few legitimate uses of government money. The kids who don't want to learn can stay home and play nintendo and will be well suited for the manual labor that they have chosen, without being indoctrinated into the government-mandated attitude.

Of course, for this to work there needs to be less money spent on welfare programs for people who are too lazy to get a job. If you're trying to get a job but run out of money, that's what churches and charities are for.

XD Fan
August 19, 2006, 11:46 PM
Naked Prophet,
Until public schools became the norm, America experienced (as did most countries) incredibly high illiteracy rates. (from XD Fan)

Illiteracy in the US was the lowest in pre-public-school America (if you exclude the segments of society which were forbidden from reading, ie slaves). (from Naked Prophet)

If you have any data or sources that would support your statement the illiteracy rates were at their lowest pre-public schools, I would be very interested to see them.

I may have made some inaccurate assumptions with my statement to the contrary. I have be doing some quick reseach since I read your post. I am unable to find substantive statistics one way or the other. It is hard to find statistics that describe illiteracy rates across our history. The only thing that I have found in my admittedly shallow research seems to support your claim, but it is not really substatiated by data. This is not to say that what I found is inaccurate, only that I have not found the data backing it up.

I have contacted some reading and literacy speciallist that I am familiar with but have not heard back yet. Hopefully for my own curiousity's sake, I can sort this out.

fchavis
August 20, 2006, 05:33 AM
I would first like to start out by saying that the message in the original poster used the phrase "many school teachers." It did not say "all school teachers," or even "most school teachers." It has been my experience, through many schools, public and private, that there are typically a few outspoken anti-gun, dare I say it, liberal, educators in the faculty. Oleg's poster presents an important message for parents with young children who spend much of their day listening to teachers in their formative years. Specifically in the socio-historical subjects, as that is where fact and opinion are closely melded, teachers often give lectures with an inherent foundation of political assumtion/oppinion. I THINK, id est, it is my opinion, that children typically listen to those lectures and absorb with them any other message the teacher may embed. I would also go so far as to say that it is more likely that the student will pick up on that message more than the factual content, as ideas are more fundamental, visceral and less likely to be forgotten.

I think the biggest problem with American schools these days is the complete lack of emphasis on critical thinking and analytical problem solving (though this is almost never the case in more advanced math and science courses but prevalent in the basics). If the only thing the ridlin addled children gain from elementary and middle school is that they are to sit down, shut up, do what they're told, guns are bad and that George Washington cut down a cherry tree when he was a kid, we are not going to do any better as a society than the Chinese. One of Americas' (note plural possessive) greatest strengths is our creative entrepreneurialism and our current system of education seems hell bent on killing it within the next few generations. </education rant>

But in regards to the Oleg's poster, it is an important reminder to parents not to assume that their children are learning everything they need to about becoming free thinking adults from their schooling, and not to shirk their responsibility if their children come home spouting party line nonsense.

I apologize, a little, for anyone that takes this personally and I encourage anyone that does to read my post carefully, determine whether or not it applies to you and then to cease taking offence when it does not. If it does apply or you work with someone to whom it does, I implore you to take a different track in your method of teaching. Invite your students to share your point of view by explaining it rationally (and make the point that you ARE explaining it rationaly), not by imbeding your lectures with subliminal ideas that they may not be able to sort out from the facts because they've already been through years of the same at the hands of other educators.

-Jon

robert garner
August 20, 2006, 07:57 AM
IF that Instructor could bring a Gun lock to class to "promote gun locks" then by golly I can use gun locks to secure a fire extinguisher to promote how stupid the idea is.

I can express my viewpoint how if that trash can is on fire, how long it will take for pulling the fire alarm to get a response and the fire put out. How calling 911 will take time as well- or how long it takes to remove a "lock" to use a tool to 'extinguish" an immediate threat.

Kudos to SM, I wanna buy this poster!
robert
:cool:

mec
August 20, 2006, 08:09 AM
This is not new . I was in grade school in the 1950s in Central Texas. I recall one teacher (4th grade) saying that the second amendment was obsolete since there is no more frontier nor indians to shoot at.

Erebus
August 20, 2006, 09:03 AM
since there is no more frontier nor indians to shoot at.

A teacher making this type of statement shows exactly where his/her views lie. My people viewed as vermin to be exterminated.

If "Indians" aren't worthy of life who else isn't worthy of life or liberties that he/she feels himself/herself worthy of?

That is root for most of this debate. Some feel that there are members of our society that aren't worthy of liberties that they feel themselves and their ilk are worthy of.

Example: Rosie O'Donnell with her armed body guards is an avid gun-control advocate.

She needs guns to protect her, but none of you little people need them. You aren't worthy/important enough.

mec
August 20, 2006, 10:04 AM
In those days, with the school systems and just about everything else segregated, there was a quaint disregard for anybody not of Scot-Irish ancestry. Probably coincidentally though, the above teacher was the meanest old blister in the school.
We put on river boat operettas in blackface knowing that the kitchen staff "wouldn't mind." The most inclusive thing I can remember a teacher saying was " if you have some Indian blood, you should be Proud of it."
We underwent a school "Unit" on the red menace so that we could help Tailgunner Joe and J. Edgar stamp out "commanism." That on stuck. I still don't like communists.
In 1958, the fifth grade class secularized christmas. Madelyn Murray O'hare was still little Madelyn Murry back then and the general practice was to have manger scenes all over the school. This time however, there was a Jewish kid in the class. she was sent off on a wild goose chase so the teacher could tell us that we were going to lean on Santa Clause instead so as to spare her any anomie. That one might have backfired though as it was the first inkling that a lot of them had that Jews don't believe in Jesus.

BigRobT
August 20, 2006, 12:12 PM
All of this teaching stuff reminds me of two teachers I had during my senior year of High school in N Central Texas. JC Gardner (RIP) and Warren Blood. Mr. Gardner was ex-Navy and a demanding teacher. He was also very conservative. He is one of the few individuals that urged me to join the Navy. Never ONCE did he demonstrate any type of bias. He taught his classes and his students learned. Trig, Calc and Physics were his bailiwick.

Warren Blood was another conservative teacher who also helped his students to learn. He taught Government & Civics. Guess what?? WE DID learn about the Constitution!! Of course, this was 31 years ago. Times have changed .

My daughter had a teacher during her junior year of high school. This man did nothing but spread his left winged ideology to his students. I contacted the school and complained. Were his discussion germaine to the course, I may have accepted it. However, it never was. It appears that quite a few teachers use their position as a "bully-pulpit" to spread their ideology. IMHO, teachers should just TEACH the subjects they've been assigned or chosen to teach and leave it at that. Ideologies are best left to the children's parents, church, peers, etc., for after school.

I have no problem with public schools, on the whole, as long as they don't attempt to fulfill a parental role, too. Guidance, direction and counselling?? Sure. As parents?? Sorry, that's NOT their job.

GEM
August 20, 2006, 12:49 PM
I'm a prof (and quite the socially liberal person - :D ). I don't make a big deal about the RKBA and rant as I don't think it is my place to talk politics in technical classes. However, I do mention that I'm a shooter.

I just met with my first year advisees and telling them about myself, I tell them I shoot pistols competitively and they might like our school's skeet class for their fitness elective. I might mention if we discuss what we did on the weekends, that I shot a match as I might mention that I saw a movie.

In my office, I have pictures of myself shooting - but do I look fat.

I also have the Oleg print of the Star of David from the Death Camps as contrasted with the Israeli flag and the Sten Gun.

BTW, in high school, I had a right wing looney teacher who just ranted all the time. Teach your subject, IMHO.

akodo
August 20, 2006, 02:04 PM
Teachers are just like the military or the police or the media or anyone else, yes there's a lot of us who are ignorant of the facts, but only in proportion to the general population. I refuse to ask students questions about whether or not they have guns at home, for example. Such an image does a disservice and creates a false stereotype.

Here's how I look at teachers from the outside.

No group anywhere is totally homogenous in it's political stance. However, the list of teachers organizations that are actively anti-gun is as long as my arm, and all the big ones, like the teachers union, are on there. These groups speak for teachers en-mass. This is the message they send. If you dislike this message, you better go get some of these groups to change before you cry foul on somone painting you all with the same brush.


Take police officers. There are a lot of anti-gun police groups, but then, there are a lot of pro-gun police groups too. So at least law enforcment can honestly say 'hey, we have a lot of pro 2nd amendment guys!'


You claim you are more pro 2nd ammendment than most people here. What have you done to further the 2nd? Refused to pay your union dues? Ran for office on some of these 'teacher groups' in attempts to change the platform?

akodo
August 20, 2006, 02:31 PM
XD fan, I have to disagree with you. Illiteracy in the US was the lowest in pre-public-school America

prophet, I got no dog in this fight but I got to tell you, less than a week ago I was listening to a historian about how the US pre global superpower still greatly effected the world. Aside from our constitution being heavily influential on a hundred similar documents, he talked about how it was the USA who started the ball rolling on public education. With a monarchy, only a small upper crust need be educated, but a democracy, with eveyone voting, everyone needs to be educated. The USA came to this conclusion when the founding fathers started dying of old age. Up until this point, most kids were home schooled, learning just a bit of the 3Rs, until at young ages they were apprenticed off, or went to work in the fields etc, and illiteracy rates were high. Once public schools were in place, there was a series of attitudes toward them. At first, education of the young was a civic duty to make good citizens in the name of democracy, later came the notion that a public education was a way to open doors and succeed in a new land, and finally we have today's concept of it being just a basic hurdle before you choose either college, where you again have the attitude of 'education to open doors and succeed' or enter the work force.

History Prof
August 20, 2006, 06:49 PM
BTW, in high school, I had a right wing looney teacher who just ranted all the time. Teach your subject, IMHO.

Since I teach at a small college, I double as the PoliSci prof. Although most of my students are conservatives, I get a few liberals. You should see the comments I get on my evals about how I use the class as my bully pulpit because I teach things about how guns are the right of Americans, its freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM religion, and how we live in a republic and not a democracy. I OVEREMPHASIZE the definitions of both republic and democracy and that I'm NOT talking about political parties, but they still think that I'm saying we live in a Republican (Party) and not a Democratic (Party) nation. :banghead: I also emphasize in class and ON MY SYLLABUS that they are FREE to argue and speak their minds in class. However, most still reserve their liberal comments for my evals. No worries, though. All of the Deans and administrators are pro-RKBA Republicans here, and they've all seen my syllabus.

Even in "teaching your subject" there are going to be political arguments (when your subject is Political Science).

another okie
August 20, 2006, 07:53 PM
I don't know the literacy numbers, but I'll look them up. They may be hard to find - I don't think most people thought it was important to know the literacy rate until recently, and I don't think it was a census question. I feel sure literacy is higher today than in 1865, say.

As far as public schools, there were very few of them even in 1865. Here are some dates from Morison's Oxford History of the American People.
Boston established free public high schools in 1821 for boys, 1828 for girls.
Pennsylvania, free public school law 1834, Ohio 1830, Indiana 1848. But there is a difference between free public schools and compulsory attendance, which came later.

Southern states tended to have lots of schools, but almost all private, and only those who could afford to do went.

Euclidean
August 20, 2006, 08:35 PM
Here's how I look at teachers from the outside.

No group anywhere is totally homogenous in it's political stance. However, the list of teachers organizations that are actively anti-gun is as long as my arm, and all the big ones, like the teachers union, are on there. These groups speak for teachers en-mass. This is the message they send. If you dislike this message, you better go get some of these groups to change before you cry foul on somone painting you all with the same brush.


Take police officers. There are a lot of anti-gun police groups, but then, there are a lot of pro-gun police groups too. So at least law enforcment can honestly say 'hey, we have a lot of pro 2nd amendment guys!'

So basically, I'm right that it's not responsible to create a stereotype, and yet it's perfectly okay to create a stereotype.

You claim you are more pro 2nd ammendment than most people here. What have you done to further the 2nd? Refused to pay your union dues? Ran for office on some of these 'teacher groups' in attempts to change the platform?

WHY does everyone assume teachers are members of some union?

I refuse to join such organizations as do many of my colleagues. I have a variety of reasons, not the least of which is my dignity.

The only reason I'd ever consider joining one would be for the legal protection against lawsuits, which may become prudent if I ever move into a more "politically correct" district. I can't fault anyone for feeling they need this protection in some of these schools. If you want to get the teachers who may be fence sitters out of anti 2A unions, pass tort reform to protect educators from lawsuits or create something like a tenure program, just to name some possible alternatives.

And of course we all know that's going to happen.:rolleyes:

For the record, most if not all teacher's organizations I've ever heard of locally have no stance whatsoever on the whole issue. However I also realize this may simply be because they've not been given a chance. They're livid enough about issues like whether students should take 4 math credits or 3.

Now that all aside, the tone of the question is exactly why this whole thread is boiling my backside. I'm not the one on trial here. I stand upright in the duty and dignity of the American educator, and what I say should be weighed accordingly.

But the reality being the American educator has no standing above "tax burden" in the eyes of most, I suppose I'll have to address the question.

I am a member of the Gunowners of America.

I refuse to join the NRA. They compromise. I don't.

I am a member of the Texas State Rifle Association. Most people seem to think Texas has good gun laws. I think they're horrible. I can't argue with results, TSRA gets them in some form consistently.

I have a concealed handgun license.

I try to learn as much as I can about firearms, be it practical shooting technique, political issues, facts about their physical construction, their history, various loads, anything I can digest from a safety class to a post on this forum to trying to learn how to reload.

I write letters to politicians that probably don't get read, or at least send the GOA postcards.

I convinced my friend who doesn't make a lot of money it's worth his time to buy a Ruger 10/22.

I helped my mom find a handgun she could use with her arthritis.

I convinced a liberal friend that I'm right, years ago. He now owns an XD9 and a Mossberg 590, and will have a Marlin 336 soon. He still has a Kerry sticker on his Hyundai, but we're working on that.

I helped my aunt find a concealed carry pistol when she didn't have any money to spend on it. I tested the pistol personally to insure it worked. I got others to pool their money to pay for it, and I bought her a holster, light, ammunition, case, and extra magazines out of pocket.

I try to shoot when I can how I can and do the best with what I have. IDPA is something I aspire to, it's just not in the cards until I take care of some family problems. I seek out instruction and feel genuinely bad for not getting enough.

My sister who has never once in her life wanted to touch a gun wants to shoot a handgun just to see what it is like because I'm always going on and on about it.

I don't rake in $40k+ a year to spend on this stuff but I have it anyway. My assortment of hardware, reference materials, skillset, etc. is modest but serviceable and I take pride in it because it shows a lot of sacrifice on my part even if to someone else, I'm just some small time player.

My friends don't understand why I don't go to the bars on the weekends or why I ride my bicycle instead of going to the movies. That $45 they spend at the bar, I spend on two bulk packs of .45 ACP.

I believe I should be able to go buy an MP5 over the counter with no paperwork beyond a receipt.

I believe I should be able to order that MP5 off an online store and have it shipped to my door by the USPS.

I believe that if I want to carry that MP5 to work with me and lug it around all day because I'm convinced I need it, I have the right to do it and anyone who questions that right should be subjected to severe scrutiny if not punishment.

I aspire to form a coalition to allow teachers to practice concealed carry. I have no idea how to go about it, but the idea is there.

And the icing on the cake, the creme de la creme, is that I do not define myself by these truths.

It has been my experience and circumstance in life which has led me to where I am, and from that experience I have formed these belief and have decided to live this way.

I am not pro RKBA despite being an educator.

I am pro RKBA because I am an educator.

Now admittedly, no, I'm not a gun store clerk or a trainer or a lobbyist or a lawyer who spends his whole existence revolving around firearms. It might be nice to do that I guess, but I see no fault with myself. I won't tolerate ridiculous groundless insinuations and outright insults.

Hawkmoon
August 20, 2006, 09:06 PM
The schoolteachers tend to sit around and swap propaganda, and even "conservative" schoolteachers don't really understand the issue. A relative of mine who knows my enthusiasm for firearms was trying to tell me that "there's no reason for people to have assault rifles." She's generally in favor of RKBA, but the entire environment conditions them against the rights of the people.
Did you ask her if she knows what an assault rifle really is, or if she's accepting the current leftist mis/disinformation that portrays any rifle with scary-looking accessories as an "assault rifle"?

Hawkmoon
August 20, 2006, 09:16 PM
WHY does everyone assume teachers are members of some union?
Ummm ... could it be because in most states one cannot be a teacher in a public elementary or secondary school without belonging to a union?

Of course, you tell us nothing about yourself (I don't fault you for that, I simply point it out) so we don't know if you hail from a state in which union membership is or is not mandatory. Being the ex-husband of a career secondary school English teacher, I'll just leave it that I have never heard of a state where union membership was not mandatory.

Green Lantern
August 20, 2006, 09:41 PM
It's not been THAT long since I took high school history. Our main teacher fell ill and a fresh student-teacher (well, college level - not sure if that's the right term for them!) had to come in and finish the year for her.

When we got to the "old west" he brought in his own Colt-SAA clone! :D :D :D UNLOADED of course, with the permission of the principal and school resource officer. He let us see it and pass it around.

I was just getting started in my interest in firearms and shooting, but I realized that 95% of the class must have never even touched a real gun before, based on assorted comments of how they didn't realize it would be so heavy!

I dunno about my title though...it's not perfect, but I love my little slice of home, and I'd like to think that even after Columbine and 9/11 that this guy could still bring in his "SAA" to bring us a real slice of the era we're learning about....

Sistema1927
August 20, 2006, 10:20 PM
The image was reversed left to right to make it better visually. I can retouch it to add a cylinder release if it really bothers people.

Not unless you also do something to edit out the side-plate screws. Your target audience isn't going to notice, so I would leave it alone.

hankdatank1362
August 20, 2006, 10:37 PM
College today is approximately the same thing as elementary or grammar school from 100 years ago.

Really.

Only if you exclude less important subjects like History (which is now more accurate and encompasses more events), geography (more countires have since formed and more areas of the world explored), social sciences (more understanding a multitude of different races, ethnicities, and societies), science (advancements in physics, chemistry, biology, etc.), math (new formulas & theorems).

I'd love to see elementary school children pass one of my thermodynamics or statics tests. Hell, I'd like to see me pass one of my thermodynamics or statics tests.

the naked prophet
August 20, 2006, 10:45 PM
XDFan, I'm sorry I don't have any sources at the moment. Both my mother-in-law and father-in-law were education majors (and FIL was a geologist too, and MIL was a microbiologist too). My FIL still teaches high school in an inner-city school. My MIL was one of the first generation of women allowed to get masters degrees. She studied the history of education, and I get a lot of lectures about how difficult it was for women back then (I am glad women can choose to have an education and a career, though now it's nearly taboo for a woman to want to be a stay-at-home mom) and how college today is like high school was for her parents. I got the literacy rates from her, and I'll ask her for the source.

As to literacy today in the US: a ridiculous proportion of high school graduates are "functionally illiterate" which means that although they can read some words, they can't read well enough to fill out a job application or do any other of a number of necessary functions in society - they can order at McDonalds but that's about it. Although students in a school can learn to read if they want to, if they aren't willing to put forth the effort, they won't learn regardless of how much money you put into the school.

For instance, only 60% of high school graduates are literate enough to get a job ( www.all4ed.org first page google hit on high school literacy). We were doing better than that after the Revolutionary War.

History Prof
August 21, 2006, 01:03 AM
When we got to the "old west" he brought in his own Colt-SAA clone! UNLOADED of course, with the permission of the principal and school resource officer. He let us see it and pass it around.


The first part is good to read (that he brought it in). The second part (needing permission) is horrible. My HS experience pre-dates the "no guns on campus" law. My HS history teacher owned Class IIIs out the wazoo (his dad was a US Army surgeon from WWII-early 60s, so he didn't spend his teachers salary on his firearms) and brought them to school regularly when they fit the lecture. IE. he brought his dad's vet bring back MP-40 and Mauser for WWII and an M16 and AK-47 for Vietnam, etc. He was a jerk, but I loved "gun days." I've held an original 12GA trench gun, a British PIAT, an original Armalite AR-18, among the others thanks to that guy.

mec
August 21, 2006, 09:12 AM
At our 1964 senior skit one of the guys walked across the stage with his bipod mounted, illegal Nambu light machine gun. I suspect he convinced the school that it was dewat. We kind of cringed though as one of the proud parents in the audience was the local FBI agent.

Green Lantern
August 21, 2006, 09:27 AM
You know, I ordered some magazines for a school fundraiser a while back, but they goofed my order and sent me "Texas Monthly" instead of "Time." Mostly a magazine of ads! However, it was worth it with the most recent issue that had the story of Charles Whitman, the tower sniper. It talked about how some of the students went and got their deer rifles from their dorm rooms, and actually managed to help slow the nut's rampage down by returning fire!:cool:

Now THAT is something I imagine would never happen today...

mec
August 21, 2006, 11:29 AM
That actually came out in the movie they made about the event. At the time, most of the television news programs and news papers stood mute about civilian counter sniping. It came out that after the civilians returned fire, there were no further casualties proceeding from Whitman's guns.

The term "veritable arsenal!" was popular withe news anchors at that time. they used it everytime somebody got caught with a gun in his car. It seemed that a .38 and half a box of ammunition qualified for the lable.

History Prof
August 21, 2006, 11:40 AM
Don't forget that one of the three men who "assaulted" the tower to stop Whitman was not even a police officer. Officers Ramiro Martinez and Houston McCoy went around one side of the tower while Allen Crum, the BOOKSTORE MANAGER went around the other side with a shotgun. All three had to work their way to the tower through Whitman's sniping, just to make the assault. Try jumping in to help a SWAT team today, and you'd get arrested. Is it any wonder why the LA shootout took 48 minutes to stop? Texans from 1966 would have had it stopped in 5. Where has America gone?:banghead:

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