Have you ever been desperate enough to carry an old style replica gun?


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Doug.38PR
August 15, 2006, 02:23 PM
I have. The first "handgun" I ever owned was an 1851 Navy .36 ball and cap made by Pietta. My mother and father's car had been broken into a few nights before so when I got home for the weekend, I decided to take it out, load 5 of 6 chambers and rest the hammer on the empty chamber. powder, wad, ball and cap. All 5 chambers. Placed it in my drawer on the bedside table and left it that way for three or four weeks. Then I got a weeks worth of work in Terrell County Texas (Sanderson. 60 miles south of Fort Stockton) and took my loaded navy in the car with me and kept it in my little hotel room. On my way back, since this was about the only time I would have to unload it short of paying a range fee, I pulled over on the side of the road out in the middle of the west texas desert and popped off off all five rounds at a cactus.

A few months later, I went out and got a Colt Official Police as my first "real" handgun.

Let's hear your stories

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aspen
August 15, 2006, 02:47 PM
Before I was 21 I would take my 1858 44cal up to my family's cabin. I had that and a mosin m44. I would not want to be on the receiving end of either of these weapons. I would load the 1854 with a .451 lead ball on top of 30 grains of 3F Blackpowder.

We leave the m44 up there all the time, mainly for bear. I now take either my 1911 or my grandfathers Securty Six in 357 that he gave me last year.

oneshooter
August 15, 2006, 04:25 PM
I don't know if this counts or not, but I carry, on occasion, either a 4 3/" or a 3" SAA repop in 45LC. The 3" has birdshead grips and is VERY fast from IWB leather.:D

Oneshooter
Livin in Texas

Tommygunn
August 15, 2006, 07:49 PM
In a previous state I lived in, maybe 15 years ago, I got a Cabela's "police special." I don't recall if that's it's real name or not. It's basically a Pietta Colt Navy 1861 with a short barrel and a semi-fluted cylinder. I loaded 5 chambers of it and kept that in a drawer near my bed.
Later I moved, and where I live now it's much easier to own guns. Curiously, like a previous poster, I too bought a Colt Official Police (great minds think alike????....) and retired the cap 'n' ball. I now have a number of modern handguns much more appropriate for defense purposes.
Oh...drove down here with that Pietta revolver in my car (in a lockbox)...glad the New Joisey police didn't stop me!!!!:( :what:

Frog48
August 15, 2006, 08:56 PM
I've always wanted a Single Action Army.

CajunBass
August 15, 2006, 10:23 PM
Many a boy wearing blue or grey along with a lot of lawmen, outlaws, and just plain folks depended on those cap and ball guns not so awfully long ago.

They worked then, they'll work now. Probably not anyone's first choice, but they will do the job if called on.

The Drew
August 15, 2006, 10:37 PM
I've often wondered about carrying a cap and ball revolver (without a license) since they're not considered firearms by many laws especially in PA.

Hawkmoon
August 15, 2006, 10:40 PM
Have you ever been desperate enough to carry an old style replica gun?
No

mustanger98
August 15, 2006, 10:50 PM
Many a boy wearing blue or grey along with a lot of lawmen, outlaws, and just plain folks depended on those cap and ball guns not so awfully long ago.

They worked then, they'll work now. Probably not anyone's first choice, but they will do the job if called on.

According to Elmer Keith ("Sixguns by Keith"), the Colt's Navy .36 caliber loaded with round ball and the proper charge has more stopping power than the .38spl loadings of his time. He said some folks wondered how the cap&ball generations survived being "under-armed", but in his opinion they were armed pretty well.

I've often wondered about carrying a cap and ball revolver (without a license) since they're not considered firearms by many laws especially in PA.

I'm in Georgia, have a CCW permit, and have wondered the same thing. FWIW, some of the Confederate re-enactors around here keep cap&ball revolvers ready to go.

mljdeckard
August 15, 2006, 11:57 PM
Not to carry, but I do find myself lingering over those replica Walker Colts in the Cabelas catalog.

itgoesboom
August 16, 2006, 12:39 AM
Wasn't with a cap and ball, but I chased off someone trying to break into my old apartment with my Ruger Blackhawk. :neener:

Heard a noise, grabbed the revolver, checked out the apartment. Didn't see anything, went back to bed. Came back out when I heard the noise again, this time got to the window still carrying my revolver.

Guy jumped from the second story and took off running.

I.G.B.

RyanM
August 16, 2006, 12:49 AM
I've often wondered about carrying a cap and ball revolver (without a license) since they're not considered firearms by many laws especially in PA.

That's not how it works. PA's definition of a "firearm," with regards to concealed carry, is any pistol or revolver with a barrel length under 13", any rifle with a barrel length under 16", any shotgun with a barrel length under 18", and any pistol, revolver, rifle, or shotgun with an overall length under 26", including black powder guns.

Anyways, I have carried a Companion cap and ball mini several times at work, where carrying weapons is verboten, because it's the smallest I have. I'm planning on substantially upgrading the thing once I have the cash, but I kinda spent most of my money on something else recently. On the bright side, it fired all 5 shots without a hitch today, after being carried around for months and exposed to massive amounts of humidity (enough that the gun has actually rusted on the side of the barrel, despite being made of stainless steel). That does a lot to restore my confidence in the reliability of the old percussion cap ignition system.

mustanger98
August 16, 2006, 12:52 AM
Those Walker Colt's... that is a cannon. IIRC, the idea was if you ran dry you could bludgeon your assailant. Problem is, while it's the original .44magnum, they're so big and heavy Dirty Harry probably wouldn't have carried one.:confused: :uhoh: :D :D :D :D :D

gunsmith
August 16, 2006, 01:15 AM
I heard of a guy shooting a sugaro (sp?) , you know those giant cacti in AZ...well any way according to the story I heard, he shot the cactus & it fell over on him...all 200lbs!...thats gotta hurt!

Any way...yup...I would carry one of those bp guns in NY and throw it away if I ever had to go to NY, I'm hoping I won't but sometimes family members get upset if you miss a funeral...dang funerals.

pedaldude
August 16, 2006, 02:19 AM
saguaros weigh many tons depending on size and the amount of rain, they have a very shallow root system so it's not uncommon at all for them to tip over you see many propped up with 2x4s to keep them upright. it's also known that sometimes drunks will go into the woods and shoot them up. although if one is ready to fall who knows if the concussion from the gun a bullet breaking a rib or just walking on the roots will cause one to fall.

http://www.snopes.com/horrors/freakish/saguaro.htm

also shooting at signs and cactuses is one more thing antis hold against gun owners, even though prolly more of each are destroyed in car crashes. but intentionaly shooting at a growing plant or even a dead one that provides a home for birds and other animals seems unnecessary to me. unless of course you're stuck in the desert and need a hole to put the water tap in:)

I remember in Ct it's legal to have a BP firearm as they don't treat them as such. there was a crazy guy that shot a computer clerk with a BP rev. 'cause he thought he was doing things to his head. the corrupt gov. of the time strangely said something that made sense and that it was a freak incident and the law couldn't help people like that. from what I remember.

Third_Rail
August 16, 2006, 02:28 AM
Not me, but someone in my situation.

Personally, I would have no hesitation carrying my 1862 snubnose, nor my NAA mini .22 (bp).


The 1862 is only a .36, but it'd kill a man no problem. The .22 is more of a flash/bang/runaway gun.


I guess the only problem with carrying a replica BP gun is that they're rather tough to conceal - this "snubnose" is 8.25" long, and that's a SMALL gun for BP replicas!


FWIW, I've left the NAA loaded for 6 months - it fired without a problem. I left the 1862 loaded for even longer, and it too fired without a problem.

foghornl
August 16, 2006, 09:01 AM
Many years back, carried a repro "1858 Army Remington" .44 cap-n-ball. Was the only handgun I had.

The Drew
August 16, 2006, 09:32 AM
That's not how it works. PA's definition of a "firearm," with regards to concealed carry, is any pistol or revolver with a barrel length under 13", any rifle with a barrel length under 16", any shotgun with a barrel length under 18", and any pistol, revolver, rifle, or shotgun with an overall length under 26", including black powder guns.

Actually it's any pistol or revolver under 15inches according to the UFA and the definition says nothing in regards to black powder. I need to do some research because if cap and ball revolvers are "firearms" as per PA law then they shouldn't be sold mail order or over the counter without paperwork. I don't own one but understood that they weren't regulated. If this is true, then they are not "firearms" per PA law. Also there is a regulation under 6106 that says that you cannot carry a loaded weapon other than a "firearm" unless you have a license in a vehicle.

scotjute
August 16, 2006, 09:51 AM
Wouldn't use the term "desperate", but I have carried my 1861 Navy Colt only a few times. The longest was a 2 day period while inspecting timber in drizzling rain. The revolver was carried in a covered holster, and holster was under my coat. All 6 cylinders fired at the end of that time.
While not my first choice, it is a reliable firearm, never failed to fire, and is fairly accurate.

Lonestar
August 16, 2006, 09:52 AM
Drew....Under section 18 a firearm is defined as such "Any weapon, including a starter gun, which will or is designed to expel a projectile or projectiles by the action of an explosion, expansion of gas or escape of gas. The term does not include any device designed or used exclusively for the firing of stud cartridges, explosive rivets or similar industrial ammunition."

You can buy starter guns, flare guns, and in a limited fashion Black Power gun thru the mail, but it still may be illegal to carry without a permit. You might have a loophole but yoiu will be sitting in jail while they figure it out. In PA it is easy to get a CW permit so why risk it.

Third_Rail
August 16, 2006, 10:01 AM
Basically, think of it like this; carrying a bowie-style knife will land you in jail in many parts of New England, but you can still buy them through the mail. They're considered deadly weapons and that whole bit.

With BP arms, they're Federally unregulated as firearms, but many (if not all) states include them as firearms. That doesn't mean that you have to go through the Federal paperwork to get them, though, but it does mean no carrying without CCW unless you don't care for the law.

The Drew
August 16, 2006, 10:04 AM
I don't have to risk it, as I already have a CCW it is just for my informational purposes...

PA CCW law only cares about PA definitions in law, not federal law. The PA LTCF is a license to carry firearms (firearms as defined by PA law), but if a black powder revolver is not a firearm as per PA law it should be legal to carry without a license on the street (not in a car)

TallPine
August 16, 2006, 11:20 AM
I dunno what you mean by "desperate" ... those guns were deadly then and they are deadly now, though maybe not quite so convenient to reload.

I was just thinking yesterday that one of those single shot caplock pistols loaded with three balls (two loose and one patched to hold the others in place) and a matching powder charge would be a pretty devastating short range defensive weapon ;)

Third_Rail
August 16, 2006, 11:23 AM
Yes, it would. Unfortunately, it wouldn't work too well for the shooter, either, unless it had been designed to fire such a load. Most barrels are not heat treated, and many are just 1018 mild steel. :)

AJAX22
August 16, 2006, 11:34 AM
Before I turned 21 I tried everything I could think of to get a pistol for cary,

wound up with a .36 remmington 1858.

It was a big ol gun, but reliable and powerfull.

Made walking at night alot more comfortable.

Third_Rail
August 16, 2006, 11:35 AM
Rather hard to conceal those old beasts with anything less than a heavy jacket, though!

Low Key
August 16, 2006, 11:50 AM
I regularly carry an 1858 Remington replica, 44 cal., 5.5 in barrel, made by Pietta, and tuned up by Bigiron Barrels to accept a 48gr charge of pyrodex p. I can easily conceal it in a hip holster with a long shirt over it. I have a ccw permit and other modern guns also, but I like the old 44 c&b and I've gotten to be a damn good shot with it. Loaded properly, it's reliable and accurate and just as effective as a modern cartridge gun. Looking forward to fall though so I can use a shoulder holster, easier concealment with long shirt and jacket.

AJAX22
August 16, 2006, 11:54 AM
So true, but I had several nice leather coats at the time, one was a WWII german leather trenchcoat I picked up in France, you could hide anything you wanted under it.

My taste in cloathing has changed a bit since then, I gave the coat to a friend of mine who fits it better now.

I also traded the remmy for some work on my car, I regret giving it up.

Jim K
August 16, 2006, 02:25 PM
I am not a lawyer, but I don't know of any state where a black powder or non-cartridge firearm is not considered a deadly weapon in regard to carrying, carrying concealed, assaulting with or using in a crime.

In many states, guns defined as antiques (usually following the Federal definition) can be bought and sold without going through the legal hoops for modern handguns, but when it comes to carrying or using in a crime, they are legally the same as the latest from Glock.

So if you stick up the Last National Bank using an original Colt Paterson, the cops are not going to wish you well as you leave with the money.

Jim

oswulf
August 16, 2006, 02:42 PM
+1.
Black powder guns are considered firearms by every state and the federal government, they just aren't regulated by the feds. I don't know of any wording in any law that would let someone assume they are not considered "firearms". They may or may not be regulated locally, or even mentioned specifically in CCW regs, but it would be prudent to treat them as the deadly weapons they are. The state sure would if caught carrying concealed without a license.

To the original topic, I used to travel constantly and my favorite carry gun for a couple years was a Ruger Old Army I bought while travelling in Montana since I couldn't buy a modern pistol without having it shipped to a dealer in my home state which I wouldn't be back in for several months. I never felt under armed.

Oswulf

The Drew
August 16, 2006, 03:48 PM
Sorry Oswulf but PA doesn't even recognize longarms as "firearms" They are weapons other than firearms. The legal definition of a firearm in PA was given earlier as:

PA's definition of a "firearm," is any pistol or revolver with a barrel length under 15", any rifle with a barrel length under 16", any shotgun with a barrel length under 18", and any pistol, revolver, rifle, or shotgun with an overall length under 26"

This definition is straight out of the uniform firearms act. Don't be so quick to assume that what we all know is a firearm is really a firearm as per state/federal law.

The consequence of a weapon being classified a "firearm" in PA is that it is a state regulated weapon which dealers are licensed and must send sales records to the state police... IOW they are defacto registered.

This is NOT the case with black powder cap and ball revolvers. They require NO paperwork despite being "any revolver" so that is where I am at.

PA does have a statute that says you cannot carry a loaded weapon other than a "firearm" in a vehicle unless you have a LTCF So carrying a cap and ball revolver in a car without a license is covered as illegal.

RyanM
August 16, 2006, 05:42 PM
You were right about 15" vs. 13", oops. Don't know what I was thinking. But anyway, there's a law that specifically says that black powder guns are considered "firearms" for the purpose of concealed carry.

Check statute 6118, Antique Firearms.

(a) General rule.--This subchapter shall not apply to antique firearms.

(b) Exception.--Subsection (a) shall not apply to the extent that such antique firearms, reproductions or replicas of firearms are concealed weapons as provided in section 6106 (relating to firearms not to be carried without a license), nor shall it apply to the provisions of section 6105 (relating to persons not to possess, use, manufacture, control, sell or transfer firearms) if such antique firearms, reproductions or replicas of firearms are suitable for use.

(c) Definition.--As used in this section, the term "antique firearm" means:

1. Any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock or percussion cap type of ignition system 1050.
2. Any firearm manufactured on or before 1898.
3. Any replica of any firearm described in paragraph (2) if such replica:
i. is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional center fire fixed ammunition; or
ii. uses rimfire or conventional center fire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

--------

Gotta love legalese. That basically means that antique firearms are only considered firearms for sections 6105 and 6106. So convicted felons may not own black powder firearms, and you must be licensed to carry concealed a black powder firearm which meets the PA state definition of "firearm."

Dr.Rob
August 16, 2006, 07:01 PM
While a cap and ball revelover might not be classified as a 'firearm' in your state (which is really an issue of how it's bought or sold) it's still a weapon, and carrying a concealed weapon (even a large knife) without a permit is a no-no in most states.

I've never carried a BP revolver 'seriously', mine are strictly range toys.

Though i've hunted with BP rifles and shotguns.

The Drew
August 17, 2006, 01:20 AM
That's the statute I was looking for, that answers the question. That loophole has been closed in PA. And it looks like they even attempted to close the felon loophole too.

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