Loaning handgun to out-of-state brother


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DennisTheMenace
August 15, 2006, 11:14 PM
If anyone can point me to a reliable source of information that helps me answer a question I'd appreciate it.

I live in Nebraska. My brother lives in Florida. He's finally decided that having a handgun for self defense is a good idea. The home invasion murder a block from his house helped convince him.

Unfortunately, his budget doesn't include buying the handgun he's decided is the best long-term purchase. I have the luxury of having an old FM High Power that I haven't shot in a while. I'd like to loan it to him for a while. Please note, this would be a LOAN, not a gift and not a sale. I expect to get it back.

I want to make the transfers, both the loan of the gun, and the return of the gun, legally. Getting anyone in trouble sort of defeats the purpose of having it for self defense.

I think I'm on firm legal ground if I ship the handgun to an FFL for delivery to him. The question is, what are my options for getting it back? I'm already scheduled to drive down and visit him in February. Can I just put it in my suitcase and carry it home (since it is _my_ handgun)? Or does it need to be shipped to an FFL in Nebraska to transfer it back to me?

I expect there will be many opinions on the best, cheapest, right, legal, ethical and moral options. I'm hoping someone is able to point me to a reliable reference source (if there is such) which answers the question. I've looked on the BATF web site but haven't found an answer that I feel is trustworthy.

Help! :)

Dennis

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SIOP
August 15, 2006, 11:46 PM
There is an exception for the loan of a firearm for "lawful sporting purposes" but it would be debatable whether or not a handgun for protection would meet that criteria. You might try checking with ATF for a definitive interpretation, but if you really want to be safe use an FFL each way. If you go the FFL route, you would have to do it going both ways, because it would then have transferred to him and it is illegal for a non-FFL to transfer any type of firearm to a resident of another state.

mikeb3185
August 15, 2006, 11:47 PM
check out packing.org and i would "sell" him the firearm (recipts and all)

sm
August 15, 2006, 11:58 PM
http://www.handgunlaw.us/

Crosscut
August 16, 2006, 05:26 AM
Why don't you send him $400 to $500 dollars as a loan, and have him go buy his own. That way he just repays you the money, and you don't have to frig around with ffl transfers.:D

crazed_ss
August 16, 2006, 05:28 AM
That sounds like a much better idea.

Lennyjoe
August 16, 2006, 08:57 AM
Or give it to him as a gift with the promise that if he ever decided he didn't need it to return it to you.

All ATF/FFL rules apply though, no getting around that.

Superpsy
August 16, 2006, 09:01 AM
Why don't you send him $400 to $500 dollars as a loan, and have him go buy his own. That way he just repays you the money, and you don't have to frig around with ffl transfers.

+1

vito
August 16, 2006, 09:03 AM
I ecently loaned one of my handguns to my son in an adjacent state. I just handed it to him and said "give it back when you no longer need it". If this is illegal then this country has really become more of a police state than I thought it already was.

22-rimfire
August 16, 2006, 01:05 PM
I would just drive it down there and leave it when you visit. You may have some responsibility if something happens with the gun though. If you do this, be sure he knows how to operate the firearm. Sending money is the cleanest approach. He gets what he wants. He could get a shotgun for a couple $100 at a gun show if he would just make the effort and he is of legal age.

SIOP
August 16, 2006, 03:17 PM
I would just drive it down there and leave it when you visit.

In his post the guy said specifically that he wants to stay legal, yet you are recommending that both he and his brother commit a federal felony.

???????????

Northslope Nimrod
August 16, 2006, 03:22 PM
I guess I am missing something. If you own a firearm, there isn't a federal law that prohibits you from loaning it, selling it or throwing it in the trash. What federal law would he break if he drives it down there? (Make sure you comply with State laws while you possess it)

SIOP
August 16, 2006, 03:25 PM
I guess I am missing something.

I guess you are. It's called the Gun Control Act.

Northslope Nimrod
August 16, 2006, 03:32 PM
The law allows "bequests" ...and "loans" for lawful sporting purposes. Loaning creates the gray area....(ie: "lawful sporting purpose"). Would bequest be interpreted to require the passing of the transferor?

wdlsguy
August 16, 2006, 03:51 PM
"the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes"

[18 USC 922(a)(5)(B)]

1) How many hours / days / weeks / months / years is "temporary"?

2) Is self-defense a "sporting purpose"?

zoom6zoom
August 16, 2006, 04:11 PM
That old High Power is on the C&R list, isn't it? Have your BIL get his C&R licence, takes less than a month, then you can ship it right to him.

Mr. James
August 16, 2006, 04:45 PM
SIOP, I'm not arguing with you, but just commenting: what a sorry state of affairs. This is no way for free men to live. :mad:

SIOP
August 16, 2006, 05:17 PM
SIOP, I'm not arguing with you, but just commenting: what a sorry state of affairs. This is no way for free men to live.

You'll get no argument from me on that one.

I don't even think that felons should be prohibited from owning firearms. The ones that are going to break the law are going to do it regardless.

Hawkmoon
August 16, 2006, 07:29 PM
I ecently loaned one of my handguns to my son in an adjacent state. I just handed it to him and said "give it back when you no longer need it". If this is illegal then this country has really become more of a police state than I thought it already was.
Correct.

ssr
August 16, 2006, 08:51 PM
I beg to differ. There is no law that prevents driving his own firearm to or from another state. And there is no law that prevents him from giving or selling his gun to his brother (unless his brother is a felon prevented from owning firearms).

If he does send it to his brother, he certainly can pick it up himself and drive it home. Or he can even ship it (his own property) back to his own home address without involving an FFL. Many times I've had gun manufacturers or gunsmiths ship back my own gun after they have done work on it. No FFL required.

I am not necessarily saying he should give his brother his gun , rather than loaning some money, just stating what I understand to be legal.

Lone_Gunman
August 16, 2006, 08:58 PM
If you loan it to him, do so with the intention that you are loaning it for target shooting. That is a lawful sporting purpose. If someone breaks in on him and he uses it to defend himself, that is just coincidental.

ssr,

I think you are wrong on a few points. First, since his brother is out of state, I think federal law prevents him from selling it or giving it to him directly. I believe it would have to go through an FFL to be legal. A loan for sporting purposes is an exception to this rule. Target shooting is a sporting purpose.

Also, two unlicensed people cannot ship guns to each other across state lines without going through an FFL. An unlicensed person can recieve or send a firearm to the manufacturer or gun smith, but that is an exception. There is a special category of FFL for manufacturers and gunsmiths, as I recall.

wdlsguy
August 16, 2006, 09:08 PM
There is no law that prevents driving his own firearm to or from another state.

True.

And there is no law that prevents him from giving or selling his gun to his brother

18 USC 922
(a) It shall be unlawful—
...
(5) for any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides; except that this paragraph shall not apply to
(A) the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or an acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who is permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of the State of his residence, and
(B) the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;
...

Andras
August 16, 2006, 09:23 PM
My Great-Uncle gave me a Colt 1911. I had to have it sent to a FFL and go through the state background check.

If Florida does instant b/g checks, then just send it to a FFL, pay the dealer's transfer fee and he can take it home right then.

ssr
August 16, 2006, 09:31 PM
OK. So, if he wishes to do it, I guess send it to an FFL and have him pick it up. To take it back home I would just pick it up and drive back home, if he's going down there anyway.

However, I am not a fan of giving out or loaning guns to others, particular for self-defense purposes. Is someone wants my help in aquiring their own I would certainly do that.

Car Knocker
August 16, 2006, 09:38 PM
To take it back home I would just pick it up and drive back home, if he's going down there anyway.


Nope. When the gun was sent to the FFL for the brother to pick up in another state, it was transferred to the brother. To legally get back across state lines to the original owner, it has to be transferred from an FFL in the original owner's state.

If you can't legally ship it across state lines in one direction, you can't legally ship it in the other direction.

ssr
August 16, 2006, 09:48 PM
Can't he ship it back to himself, if it stays his property? If it becomes the property of the brother, then no, it has to be then transferred back. But if it stays his property, just in his brothers possession temporarily, can't he just ship his property back to himself?

That's what gunsmiths and manufacturers do. They can ship directly back to the owner, without FFLs, after gunsmithing or warranty work.

Car Knocker
August 16, 2006, 10:26 PM
But it was legally transferred to his brother in another state. Legal possession, not ownership, lies with the brother. To get it back across state lines an FFL has to be involved for the transfer back to the owner. Otherwise, the brother has violated the following section of code:

18 USC 922
(a) It shall be unlawful—
...
(5) for any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides;

By the time all the shipping and transfer fees accrue, not to mention the agravation, it may well be cheaper to lend the brother the money to buy a similar gun. When the brother is able to afford the gun he really wants, just sell the temporary gun and give the money back to the lender. The lender would then be ahead of the game.

DennisTheMenace
August 16, 2006, 11:22 PM
The option to "loan" for "temporary use for lawful sporting purposes" was the provision I found on the BATF web site. I tend to agree with everyone who has posted that it's a legal gray area. I don't think a loan of several months complies with the spirit of the regulation, even if the regulation doesn't comply with the Bill of Rights.

I have to admit the "loan him the money" to buy it suggestion has appeal, but isn't an option in this case.

My brother left a voicemail that he'd spoken to an FFL down there (in Orlando), the FFL was happy to arrange for the transfer... if I had an FFL here ship it to him! I don't think there is a legal requirement for it to be shipped FROM an FFL, so I think he's also trying to keep out of any gray area in the law. I can't blame him for that. If I take that route I'll try to find an FFL that will allow me to ship it directly to him, there will be too many people involved as it is without adding an FFL at the 'sending' end.

I appreciate everyone's input regarding my question. I wonder if calling the BATF for their take on the law would get me anywhere? The problem with that is that I don't know if I could trust the answer. It's like calling the IRS for tax advice, if their advice is flawed I'm still the one who gets in trouble.

Dennis

Andras
August 17, 2006, 12:04 AM
It doesn't have to be shipped from an FFL to an FFL, just that a FFL has to handle the transfer on his end. My great uncle shipped his pistol to my FFL himself.

(I could be wrong, but that's my experience)

Car Knocker
August 17, 2006, 12:41 AM
More and more FFLs are refusing to accept a firearm shipment unless it comes from another FFL.

22-rimfire
August 17, 2006, 12:49 AM
"In his post the guy said specifically that he wants to stay legal, yet you are recommending that both he and his brother commit a federal felony."

I don't think you are correct, by the way. This is why giving "legal advice" is not a very good idea on a forum. I would do what makes sense, and if it is an immediate family member... (just add what you are comfortable with)

Big Gay Al
August 17, 2006, 01:03 AM
I just sold a pistol to a guy in another state, through gunbroker.com. His FFL of choice faxed me a copy of his license, and I packed the pistol up, took it down to FedEx, and shipped it out. No problemo.

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