[Jeff T.]

All-

First time poster here.

I've recently reloaded a batch of 308 Norma magnum rounds for my dad. The cases I used had been reloaded 1-2 times previously.

Here's the issue: 5 of 6 rounds chambered did not fire. He reported that of the five that did not fire, 3 showed no evidence of firing pin contact, and two were only minimally contacted by the pin. He commented that the primers on reloads "appear" to be seated deeper in the pocket than his factory rounds.

I standardized case and overall lengths (COAL) per my Speer manual, and the rounds chamber easily (or so my dad says).

I suspect that the issue is not one of primers seated too deep. More likely one of case belts having been full length sized in the past and [now] incorrect headspacing.

Any thoughts from the group as I wait to recieve the reloads back from my dad?

Thanks,

Jeff T.

[EShell]

Several things can be happening here, but it sounds like a headspace problem or a rifle problem.

First, for future loading, disregard the belt and use the shoulder to headspace. Any other method WILL lead to headspace problems and short case life due to case separations. This excessive headspace problem will cause the misfires you describe.

With priming, the primers should be about .005" below the case head. Slight variation is permissible. Were they all simply seated too deep, then they should all get a light strike. Difficult to seat too deeply without a cut pocket - have they been uniformed with a tool that is out of calibration?

Too shallow a seating depth, and part of the firing pin inertia is used to fully seat the primer, thus leading to first-strike misfires, BUT, all primers would show some sort of light strike and they should all shoot on the second strike.

Without a loaded cartridge guage, it is hard to tell what is going on with your headspace. When forming critical cartridges and trying to keep headspace at minimum, I usually neck the case up a size or two, like to 8mm for a .30, then neck it back down a tiny bit at a time, until the case will chamber with slight resistance. This gets the shoulder location as far forward as it can be and still allow the bolt to close.

With the rifle, it is possible to get a small piece of material in the firing pin hole that would impede motion, causing light strikes and misfires. This often happens with a pierced primer, where the metal lost goes into the bolt via the firing pin hole. Another potential rifle problem is that the bolt handle is being prevented from turning down completely and going fully into battery, thus losing some power by having to finish closing the bolt, or even having full firing pin travel prevented entirely.

[R.W.Dale]

Are you using CCI primers? I ask because I recently got into a batch that have unbelievably hard cups. The firing pin would just kinda dimple them. This problem occoured in several diffrent rifles even milsurps. I have since swapped to federal primers without ANY misfires since.

[Jeff T.]

Thanks all.

I forgot to write initially that dad fired factory ammo during the same session with no misfires. Factory ammo primers were struck firmly by the pin, also.

Hmmm....I did use CCI250's in the reloads, tho....

When I get the reloads back from dad, I'll measure critical case dimensions to diagnose and report back to the Board. In the event that I have a headspacing issue, I'll need some direction on how to proceed.

Thanks,

Jeff T.

[HankB]

Since three of the primers show "no evidence of firing pin contact" there are three possibilities . . .

1. Headspace is grossly off. Belted rounds should normally be reloaded to headspace off the shoulder, but if that was pushed too far back, the case should still headspace on the front of the belt. It would require virtually reforming the case (belt) for headspace to be off SO far that the firing pin doesn't even contact the primer.

2. Primers are much too deep. I like to set my primers 0.004" below flush.

3. Mechanical rifle problem.

I quit using CCI primers a long time ago - dud rounds, stray "rings" of cup material where they weren't punched out properly - but I've NEVER run across a primer too hard to even be marked by the firing pin.

One last thought . . . you mentioned these are for a .308 Norma rifle. Are these actually .308 Norma cases, or were they reformed from some other cartridge?

[ClarkEMyers]

I'd be very curious about the rifle and chamber - was it a Schultz & Larsen or a rechambered military Mauser or?

I'd want a Wilson case gage for belted magnums for the .308 Norma but if RCBS makes their micrometer for .308 Norma that might be as good.

I'd look for something weird - I might put CCI primers at the bottom of the list but obviously CCI primers work by the millions for thousands and thousands of people in many different firearms. Particularly in handguns some people say Federal works when nothing else will.

[Jeff T.]

hmmm...the plot thickens....

brass is factory 308 Norma...no fire-formed cases from other calibers.

Action is rechambered Enfield.

dad shot about a box of factory rounds (following six rounds of reloads; of which 5 misfired) with no issues and strong primer strikes. Hes never had an issue in the past with factory ammo misfiring in this rifle. Only my reloads :eek:

I had convinced myself that it is almost, if not entirely, impossible to seat primers so deep that they avoid a (strong) pin strike. My preliminary diagnosis was therefore headspacing. I agree with HankB, tho, that it would take an unlikely combination of REALLY moving the shoulder back and belt sizing/removal to avoid a primer strike in an otherwise properly operating bolt/pin. I used an RCBS sizing die.

I cleaned the primer pockets prior to seating primers using the standard RCBS pocket brush. I used a Lee hand primer to seat primers, and cant see that I crushed primers while seating (it would seem to take a good amount of force to do this with a hand primer???).

Assuming for the moment that I DID seat the primers so deep that the pin cant make the reach, I have two preliminary questions (while I wait to take possession of offending cartridges):

1) how do I decap the cases once I've removed bullets/powder? (cant shoot em, cause the pin wont reach)

2) are there magnum rifle primer brands that are "taller" than CCI250's? and would therefore seat "flusher" with the case bases?

Thanks,

Jeff T.

[Chawbaccer]

Did he try to cycle them a second time? If you don't seat the primers as deep as they go, the firing pin will and you will still get missfires. It might be possible that is the problem now. If you are sure the primers are properly seated I'd suggest you try a different brand.

[ClarkEMyers]

I take Enfield to mean P17 rechambered from .30-'06?

Barring other changes, a cock on opening conversion or other such, I'd expect the Enfield firing pin to fall hard and far.

There is a remote possibility the primers are really large pistol but still I'd expect them to work. There are specs for primers. Some say CCI tends to looser quality control than some but CCI has always worked for me though it's not always my preferred. Anything higher would have its own hazards!

I'd want to check headspace using belt only headspace gages.

My current best guess is that the rifle has excessive headspace on the belt AND the dies are maybe sloppy maybe cranked down solid against the shell holder - further that the factory brass is headspacing on the shoulder not the belt and the reloads have the shoulder moved back so when the reloads headspace the reloads are too far in. It has been common at times and places in the past for belted magnum dies screwed all the way down to set the shoulder back to be sure of a fit and count on the belt for headspace. See the Wilson case gage for belted magnum cases as available on the web for an extended discussion.

[BigG]

The belt is designed to headspace on. I don't know where you get the idea the shoulder is the headspace unless you are trying to just neck size to make the brass last.

[ClarkEMyers]

THE WILSON ADJUSTABLE CARTRIDGE CASE GAGE

FOR BELTED CALIBERS

(Patent No. 3,209,461)

In the making of rimless ammunition and in the chambering of rifles for the same, a close relationship is maintained between the cone-to-head length of the cartridge and the same dimension (headspace) in the chamber. This is because uniform ignition depends on this fit, as the shoulder in the chamber supports the cartridge against the blow of the firing pin. In many rimless calibers the cone-to-head length of a new cartridge will be slightly greater than the cone-to-bolt face length (headspace) of a correctly chambered rifle. Thus there may be some "feel" in. closing the bolt on a new cartridge. In belted calibers, proper ignition does not depend on the cone-to-head length of the cartridge relative to the chamber. Instead, the firing pin thrust is taken by the belt against its seat in the chamber. This means that cone-to-head length of belted cartridges is of no consequence as far as ignition is concerned and the factory can be, and in many cases is, quite tolerant regarding the fit of the cartridge beyond the belt recess. The factory is concerned only with the firing of the cartridge once and new brass will stand a lot of stretching. The reloader, however, is concerned with the fit of the cartridge beyond the belt and the less the brass is worked in reloading and firing the longer it will last.

In our first Case Gage for a belted cartridge, the 300 H. & H., the shoulder angle was so gradual that cases had much less tendency to stretch (and pull apart) than would be the case with a more abrupt angle. With the advent of later belted calibers like the 7x61', the Weatherbys, the 264, 300 and 338 Winchester Magnums, etc., with their more abrupt shoulders, the problem has become a real one. To complicate matters, different rifles of the same make will be found to vary greatly in chamber dimensions forward of the belt.

After a great deal of time spent on this problem we have come up with a solution. This is the WILSON Adjustable Case Gage. Now the customer can readily adjust a case gage to fit his particular rifle and can then adjust his resizing die to correspond.

DIRECTIONS

Note correct position of insert in gage body. The cone is inside and the lettered end out. Loosen the small screws, which have fibre pads underneath, and push insert out of gage body. A soft instrument like a wood dowel will not damage the gaging surface of the insert. Remove all grease from insert and gage body. Check to see fibre pads are still in place, then push insert into gage body until outer end is about 1/8 inch inside. Tighten screws very lightly. .

Drop one of your fired cases into the gage. The head should protrude. Next, push the case into the gage, causing the insert to slip, until the head of the case is even with the high part, or high parts, of the gage. A narrow, straight instrument, like a Brown & Sharpe #306 steel scale will do for this and will be fine for subsequent gaging. If your Wilson case gage is the stepped type, hold the gage with the lower step toward you and with the scale edge resting on the right edge of the upper step, use a slow, rocking motion to force the case and the insert down until the head of the case is even with the upper step. Be sure the scale is resting on the case head and not on the primer. Tighten screws. Check to see insert did not move when screws were tightened.

If your Wilson case gage is the new, grooved type, hold the gage with one end of the groove toward you and with the scale at 90 degrees to the groove, use the same rocking motion to force the case head and insert down so head of case is even with upper surfaces. Tighten screws. With this adjustment completed you now have a case gage adjusted to your particular rifle.

Now adjust your full-length die to produce a cone-to-head length that will allow the case head to stop about halfway between upper and lower gaging surfaces. It should not be necessary to shorten the cone-to-head length to where the case head will register with the lower gage surface. A slight reduction in cone-to-head length, which will permit closing the bolt without undue effort, is all that is required.



It is suggested, after the gage is adjusted to your rifle, you drop in a new factory cartridge and note the location of the head. This will show how the brass will be unnecessarily overworked if brought back to new dimensions for each reloading, and why the case will separate after a few firings.

With the gage adjusted for your own cases you can check over-all length by standing it, with a cartridge case inside, on a flat surface, head end down. If the case mouth checks above the upper step, or upper surface, of the gage the case is over length and should be trimmed back to the lower gaging surface. The over-all length of the gage body represents maximum case length. Don't allow your cases to become longer than the gage.

WILSON CARTRIDGE CASE GAGES FOR RIMMED CALIBERS

CARTRIDGE CASE GAGES are now available for most popular rimmed rifle cases. Like the belted Magnum cartridges, these rimmed calibers do not depend on their shoulder to position the cartridge and take the firing pin thrust. They are also subject to the same overworking of the brass at the shoulder when reloaded if the resizing die is set incorrectly. The use of a Wilson Cartridge Case Gage can extend the useful life of rimmed brass and indicate the need for trimming when they lengthen.

L. E. WILSON, CASHMERE, WASHINGTON, OCTOBER, 1969

[Shoney]

From the data you presented, checking the case dimension of the factory against the fired factory and your dud cases is the key.

Sounds like the reloads are headspacing on the shoulder, not on the belt, which would indicate that you have set the shoulder back.

As far as removing live primers. I have removed many hundreds of live primer and reused them in fouling shot ammo. Simply be very slow when you run the case into the die. I have never had one go off, but I do put a 3/4 inch piece of plywood between me and the press. Safety first.

After 45 years of loading, I have a habit of running my finger over the base of the newly primed shell. I have never set a primer too deep. Many were not set deep enough and I simply put a little more pressure on to make them flush.

[R.W.Dale]

Sounds like the reloads are headspacing on the shoulder, not on the belt, which would indicate that you have set the shoulder back.

If you set the shoulder back too far (Which should be impossible with correctly made dies) you would be headspacing on the belt with the shoulder left unsupported in the chamber.

http://www.frfrogspad.com/belt.jpg