RRA and SBR


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ServiceSoon
August 16, 2006, 04:54 PM
I just wanted to drop everybody a note that Rock River Arms (www.rockriverarms.com) doesnt sell short barreled rifles to the general public.

When companies have policies that prevent eligible citizens from purchasing a rifle that one is legal to buy it is quite discouraging. I guess I just added another company to the list that I dont do business with. Does anybody know the reasoning behind their thinking?

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ArmedBear
August 16, 2006, 05:16 PM
Uh, buy a LAR-15 pistol and a buttstock.

wdlsguy
August 16, 2006, 05:27 PM
Rock River Arms (www.rockriverarms.com) doesnt sell short barreled rifles to the general public.

Will they sell to a class 3 dealer?

buy a LAR-15 pistol and a buttstock.

Be sure to get an approved Form 1 (http://www.atf.gov/forms/pdfs/f53201.pdf) before you get the buttstock.

Correia
August 16, 2006, 06:29 PM
Chill out. Don't get all flustered.

I'm an NFA dealer. And I sell quite a few RRA guns. I talked to them at SHOT. They said that it just wasn't really part of their business plan. They are working at full capacity on their other projects that are more lucarative than SBRs.

Remington doesn't sell SBRs either. Those bastards. Let's boycott everybody! :)

What is with us gun people? It isn't like we don't have enough actual enemies without having to fabricate more.

HCfan
August 16, 2006, 07:03 PM
You can get the buttstock before being approved, just don't put it on. But then again, I just waited when I did mine.

RRA, like some other companies, just don't sell direct to people who don't have an FFL01. Like Mossburg (IIRC) won't sell a virgin receiver to an individual going through an FFL. They will sell it to the FFL and then the FFL sells it to you.

Just ask your FFL to order one for you if you want it and hopefully they will sale it to you at a lower than normal % that they would usually sell.

All of the SBR's and SBS's that I have I made myself. Just go to the ATF page and print out the Form 1, fill it out, put your $200 with it and then get approval.

Also, you have to fill out the Form 4. The company can't do it for you and neither can your FFL. You are the one that has to fill it out, get your CLEO to sign it, get the finger prints and submit, with payment, to the ATF. Just too much paperwork involved and waiting period. It's just easier for them to sell to an FFL and then the FFL sell to you.

wdlsguy
August 16, 2006, 07:26 PM
You can get the buttstock before being approved, just don't put it on.

"If a person has a pistol and an attachable shoulder stock, does this constitute possession of an NFA firearm?

Yes, unless the barrel of the pistol is at least 16 inches in length (and the overall length of the firearm with stock attached is at least 26 inches). However, certain stocked handguns, such as original semiautomatic Mauser "Broomhandles" and Lugers, have been removed from the purview of the NFA as collectors' items."

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#m24

Hemicuda
August 16, 2006, 08:48 PM
I beg to differ...

I own Thompson-Center Contender frames, barrels, and pistol and rifle stocks... The rifle stocks only go on the 16" and 21" barrels, but I OWN 10", 12", and 14" barrels...

You are telling me mere posession of a Contender frame, with say, my 10" .22 barrel, AND a shoulder stock is a felony? i don't think so...

The felony would be putting the shoulder stock ON the frame, with a short (under 16") barrel also on that frame...

I am totally legal OWNING the frame, stocks, and barrels, I just gottA be careful what I put together...

wdlsguy
August 16, 2006, 09:22 PM
You are telling me mere posession of a Contender frame, with say, my 10" .22 barrel, AND a shoulder stock is a felony?

Unless you also own a rifle barrel, BATFE calls that constructive possession.

Car Knocker
August 16, 2006, 09:23 PM
Hemicuda,

wdlsguy merely posted the BATF FAQ on the subject. If you disagree, your disagreement is with the feds, not wdlsguy.

Frog48
August 16, 2006, 09:56 PM
Its a private business. They can chose what they sell, and to whom they sell it.

The best way to protest is to buy from another manufacturer.

ServiceSoon
August 17, 2006, 07:58 PM
Bushmaster will only sell sbr rifles to law enforcement too. Neither company will sell complete sbr rifles to an FFL that holds a class III license. :fire: What is going on? I feel like I am in the communist twilight zone. :neener:

I really wanted to buy a complete rifle to insure I am getting a weapon that was manufactured to work together. It makes more sense to buy some thing that was designed to work together than it is to piece together something, from a reliability standpoint, at least in my opinion. I dont really have a choice in that matter since these wonderful American companies :rolleyes: are in opposition to (for whatever reason) selling these types of weapons to eligible citizens. As an example to the reliability arguement, I have heard that shorter rifles have something called M4 feed ramps. This prevents jams that are caused by using a shorter barrel rifle than the ar15 action was designed for.

I will have to do what many of you have suggested, that is to buy a complete lower and fill out a form 1. Im not sure filing a form 4 is necessary after filing a form 1. :confused: I will definitely look into that. Thank you to those who are leading me down the right path! I will let you know how this goes. Keep tuned to this thread.

Don't Tread On Me
August 17, 2006, 08:20 PM
OMG THAT'S IT!!!!


RRA IS ANTI-GUN.


Boycott them!

















(that's how Colt is treated)

wdlsguy
August 17, 2006, 09:15 PM
I will have to do what many of you have suggested, that is to buy a complete lower and fill out a form 1.

Be sure to drop in on the general class 3 forum at ar15.com (http://ar15.com/forums/forum.html?b=6&f=17) if you have questions about the process.

Im not sure filing a form 4 is necessary after filing a form 1

Not until you decide to sell your SBR to someone else.

444
August 18, 2006, 12:00 AM
As was mentioned, you do a form 1 to register the lower as an SBR. That's it. Form 1 is the form to manufacture an NFA firearm. You are manufacturing (putting an upper on a lower), so you need to do a form 1.

Form 4 is the form to transfer an NFA firearm. If you were buying the complete rifle, you would need to do a form 4.


I have never tried to buy a complete SBR and don't see any reason to do so. Bushmaster will see you a complete upper. You can order a complete Bushmaster lower through a dealer. You put the two together and woop there it is. Buying a complete rifle means that instead of you putting a random upper on a randow lower, the manufacturer puts a random upper on a random lower. There is no more to it than that.

As far as I know, Bushmaster doesn't have M4 feed ramps. Millions of AR15 and M16 rifles and carbines have been sold and fired for 40 years without M4 feed ramps. And, the feed ramps have nothing to do with short barrels.

wdlsguy
August 18, 2006, 11:30 AM
You are required to engrave your name, city and state on the receiver when "making" an SBR on a Form 1. I used Steve@tomsawyermfg.com for my SBR engraving. You can send your receiver off for engraving at the same time you send your paperwork to BATFE.

LiquidTension
August 18, 2006, 12:01 PM
You are required to engrave your name, city and state on the receiver when "making" an SBR on a Form 1. I used Steve@tomsawyermfg.com for my SBR engraving. You can send your receiver off for engraving at the same time you send your paperwork to BATFE.

That only applies when you've finished a receiver, correct? If you buy a finished receiver and then SBR it, you just submit the original manufacturer name, location, and serial number. If you take an 80% receiver and finish it that's when you have to put your name and location. Is that correct?

ArmedBear
August 18, 2006, 12:12 PM
"If a person has a pistol and an attachable shoulder stock, does this constitute possession of an NFA firearm?

Yes, unless the barrel of the pistol is at least 16 inches in length (and the overall length of the firearm with stock attached is at least 26 inches). However, certain stocked handguns, such as original semiautomatic Mauser "Broomhandles" and Lugers, have been removed from the purview of the NFA as collectors' items."

This is still a gray area, I think.

What if you own a plain-jane 20" AR-15? It has a buttstock on it, made to be removed with a simple tool, which you probably also own for doing maintenance.

Would that mean you can't buy an AR pistol? You possess the buttstock, and it could be attached.

What about 1911 carbine kits? You have a 16" barrel that comes with the kit, along with the buttstock. But you also probably still own the original 1911 pistol barrel.

I think what they mean is that, if you have a 1911 and a buttstock that fits on it in a case or on the premises, that's an SBR, even if you don't have the buttstock attached at the moment. This is intended to prevent someone from detaching the stock, to avoid prosecution.

Basically, the law is written and applied so that it's easy for them to "bust" someone who is doing nothing wrong. This means it's at the discretion of the DOJ. Not a good thing.

Hell, the whole NFA doesn't make much sense. Though gun control is generally ineffective, the details of the law might have had some validity when the guns described were particularly useful for certain sorts of crime. That doesn't mean they stopped crime; I doubt there was any effect. But maybe there was some logic to the rules about barrel length, etc. Now, though, technology has really made those old guns obsolete, and the rules seem totally arbitrary.

wdlsguy
August 18, 2006, 12:40 PM
That only applies when you've finished a receiver, correct? If you buy a finished receiver and then SBR it, you just submit the original manufacturer name, location, and serial number.

See 27 CFR 479.102(a)(2)(iii) and 27 CFR 479.102(a)(2)(iv).

http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/waisidx_06/27cfr479_06.html

If you take an 80% receiver and finish it that's when you have to put your name and location. Is that correct?

Sorry, I don't know anything about 80% receivers. :o

wdlsguy
August 18, 2006, 12:50 PM
What if you own a plain-jane 20" AR-15? It has a buttstock on it, made to be removed with a simple tool, which you probably also own for doing maintenance.

Would that mean you can't buy an AR pistol? You possess the buttstock, and it could be attached.

You can buy an AR pistol. Just make sure you don't install the pistol upper on the rifle lower.

What about 1911 carbine kits? You have a 16" barrel that comes with the kit, along with the buttstock. But you also probably still own the original 1911 pistol barrel.

Just make sure you install the 16" barrel before you attach the buttstock.

ArmedBear
August 18, 2006, 01:01 PM
Just make sure you install the 16" barrel before you attach the buttstock.

That was my point about "constructive possession."

If you have the parts to make the 1911 receiver into a carbine and to make it a pistol, you also have the parts to make it into an SBR.

So, if you have the parts that COULD be used legitimately, then "constructive possession" is replaced by a more sensible "manner in which the parts are assembled" principle.

HOWEVER, I wouldn't put it past F Troop to try to show "constructive possession" if they were so inclined. What would the courts say?

rob_s
August 18, 2006, 01:06 PM
Funny that Colt released 6933s and many non-leo individuals bought them, they are also releasing another batch, and they are releasing an SBR version of the 1020 (1033?).

Malum Prohibitum
August 18, 2006, 01:32 PM
What does this do to the bullet velocity and the accuracy?

Rock River has 10.5 inch and 7 inch barrels.

Any idea?

Is a 5.56 mm round out of a 7 inch barrel effective? What is it's velocity? Is it still a good hundred - two hundred yard gun?

wdlsguy
August 18, 2006, 02:28 PM
So, if you have the parts that COULD be used legitimately, then "constructive possession" is replaced by a more sensible "manner in which the parts are assembled" principle.

HOWEVER, I wouldn't put it past F Troop to try to show "constructive possession" if they were so inclined. What would the courts say?

I believe Thompson-Center took BATFE to court over this very issue and won, which is why we can start with a pistol, reconfigure it as a rifle, and reconfigure it again as a pistol without being hassled.

444
August 18, 2006, 02:28 PM
Malum Prohibitum
Let me save you a potential headache.
It is pretty generally accepted that the 11 1/2" uppers are as short as you can go and still have something that runs without being tweaked. When you get shorter than that function becomes and issue and may require a lot of tinkering to get it working. I have a 7" upper and it doesn't work. I haven't spent much time playing with it, I am sure I willl eventually get it working but the odds of it working out of the box are slim IMO.

The effective range of any weapon is a function of the ammo you are using and your definition of effective. I absolutely guarantee that most of the answers you get to this question will give you ranges for MILITARY BALL AMMO. If you shoot military ball ammo, then the numbers mean something. If you don't they are meaningless. I personally have fired a truck load of .223 ammo as a civilian and not one single round of it was military ball ammo. So, when these fragmenation ranges (that are given in every thread about the AR15) mean nothing to me. Unlike the military, I am free to use handloads complete with V-Max bullets, Ballistic Tip bullets, Hollow Points, Softpoints or whatever I want.
If you are worried about terminal performance, don't choose a 7" upper. It is mostly a toy. Not completely a toy, but close.

wdlsguy
August 18, 2006, 02:36 PM
http://www.bushmaster.com/images/faqchart.gif

rob_s
August 18, 2006, 02:53 PM
Regarding velocities, barrel length, and ammo

http://www.ammo-oracle.com/body.htm

LiquidTension
August 18, 2006, 03:52 PM
See 27 CFR 479.102(a)(2)(iii) and 27 CFR 479.102(a)(2)(iv).

Wow, that is really silly. Undoubtedly another tactic to making such fun weapons more expensive and therefore harder to obtain. If the serial number is on file with ATF, why does the receiver need to say anything other than the original manufacturer? What point is served by having your name and location engraved on it?

wdlsguy
August 18, 2006, 04:06 PM
Undoubtedly another tactic to making such fun weapons more expensive and therefore harder to obtain.

Under-trigger engraving is the way to go. I think Steve charges $35.

If the serial number is on file with ATF, why does the receiver need to say anything other than the original manufacturer? What point is served by having your name and location engraved on it?

I suspect it's because you're converting a Title I weapon into a Title II weapon.

444
August 18, 2006, 04:14 PM
If you are starting from scratch, buy a receiver with your name already engraved on it. I bought three from Lauer and registered them but haven't put them together yet. It has only been like two years. :uhoh:
FWIW, It was printed on the side of the mag well in big letters. I don't like the look of it, but since it is the law, I figured this was the easiest way to do it. I needed the receivers and just bought them already engraved.

LiquidTension
August 18, 2006, 04:37 PM
If it were just $35 that'd be fine, but shipping the receiver adds that much more. I already have an AR and was thinking about registering it as an SBR, but with all the extra steps involved I think I'll make a supressor my first venture into the NFA world. It's cheaper too :)

Jorg Nysgerrig
August 18, 2006, 04:49 PM
What is going on? I feel like I am in the communist twilight zone.

It's obviously not as profitable to sell SBRs as it is to sell 16" versions.

wdlsguy
August 18, 2006, 04:54 PM
shipping the receiver adds that much more.

Priority Mail Flat Rate Box - Any weight, any State, $8.10. USPS takes a dim view of mailing SBRs, so get your engraving done before you send your paperwork to BATFE. :D

http://shop.usps.com/wcsstore/PostalStore/upload/images/ofrb1_d.jpg

LiquidTension
August 18, 2006, 05:07 PM
Oh see I was thinking that mailing firearms was one of those expensive overnight deals. Guess that's just for handguns.

444
August 18, 2006, 08:07 PM
"USPS takes a dim view of mailing SBRs"

You got a link for that regulation ?

wdlsguy
August 18, 2006, 11:08 PM
Pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed on the person (for example, short-barreled shotguns and short-barreled rifles) are defined as handguns.

http://pe.usps.gov/text/pub52/pub52c4_003.html#NL508_16

Pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed on the person (referred to as "handguns") are nonmailable in the domestic mail, except as permitted in Exhibit 432.1 and DMM 601.11.1.

http://pe.usps.gov/text/pub52/pub52c4_003.html#NL508_22

444
August 19, 2006, 07:26 AM
But you are shipping a bare receiver.
The receiver is the firearm. But, no one has any idea that it is registered as a short barreled rifle. Obviously a bare AR15 receiver looks the same whether it is eventually mated with a 24" upper, a 7" upper, a stock, or a pistol grip.
I can understand not shipping a registered SBR just in case it is damaged or lost. But, again, they have no way of knowing the receiver is registered or not unless you tell them.
Of course I wouldn't ship USPS anyway, but I was wondering what exactly their logic (or lack of logic) was.

Double Naught Spy
August 19, 2006, 08:25 AM
I just wanted to drop everybody a note that Rock River Arms (www.rockriverarms.com) doesnt sell short barreled rifles to the general public.

YAHOO! You Always Have Other Options. The first and best is that you don't buy direct from RRA. It may take a bit of work on your part, but find a dealer online and go through them. Chances are that you can find a dealer with the RRA product in stock, at the same price or cheaper, and without the wait that RRA has on their products. Or maybe the price is cheaper and it still has to be ordered or they have it now and the price is the same. At WORST, you come out equal with buying from RRA at MSRP. For example, I saved over $50 going off MSRP going through a dealer for a 24" varmint upper instead of going through RRA.

FPrice
August 19, 2006, 08:41 AM
YAHOO! You Always Have Other Options.

I like that. I'm going to have to try to remember it.

41 Redhawk
August 22, 2006, 04:08 PM
I believe Thompson-Center took BATFE to court over this very issue and won, which is why we can start with a pistol, reconfigure it as a rifle, and reconfigure it again as a pistol without being hassled.
Yep, that is what the suit determined. Just can't go the other way (rifle to pistol) without the paperwork and paying the money.

Fly320s
August 22, 2006, 09:56 PM
Slightly O.T.

Just a quick plug for the flat rate USPS box. Precision Bullets of Texas uses that box for shipping their lead bullets. I received a 70 pound box of 200 grain .45acp bullets in one of those flat-rate boxes. Gotta love it.:evil:

ServiceSoon
November 16, 2006, 11:02 PM
Since I started this thread, and bashed RRA, I felt compeled to update it.

www.midwestgun.com has contracted RRA to build 100 SBR rifles. :what: Give them a call if interested. The cash price is $1075. I could buy the parts, engrave the individual name/trust name, fill out a form 1, but I think the advantage to having it assembled at RRA is a plus. I don't think if you buy the individual parts and create it you will get a warranty, whereas if you buy it complete you are fully covered?!

Prince Yamato
November 16, 2006, 11:52 PM
I think the reason a lot of the companies won't sell directly is because they fear customers unwittingly making SBRs, getting busted, and then having those customers suing the parent company saying, "Well, RRA, Bushmaster, etc. didn't tell me about NFA laws". I was at a gun show recently, a gentleman was buying a Kel-Tec SU-16 pistol. The pistol already had the barrel shroud, and he was holding it up with his fist balled under it as if her were contemplating adding a forward vertical grip. I asked him, "so, making an AOW are we?" he replied, "What's an AOW". Long story short, I had to explain that what he was going to make would have landed him in jail for 10 years. I know he didn't buy the gun, which made the vendor angry, but I told the vendor that the buyer, after being proscecuted, probably would have sued the vendor for not telling him that he was creating an NFA weapon. This is like what RRA and Bushmaster would face, but on a larger scale.

Most lawyers would probably advise their clients to turn on the seller as being at fault. I'm pretty sure that the AW companies don't want a high-profile case against them. It would probably show up on natoinal TV and bankrupt the company.

KC&97TA
November 17, 2006, 12:26 AM
If your intention is a 10-1/2" or 7" SBR, why not buy the RRA LAR-15 Pistol with a retail of $910, fill out a form 1 and add a butstock for $75 for a 6 position stock. To me this seems like the simplest way to go.

FWIW: I have 2 AR's both build out of RRA parts except for the Lowers which are CMMG inc. Both have been 100% reliable, although they aren't as frankenstiened as some AR builders... Stick to quality parts and you can't go wrong.

MachIVshooter
November 17, 2006, 12:31 AM
That was my point about "constructive possession."

If you have the parts to make the 1911 receiver into a carbine and to make it a pistol, you also have the parts to make it into an SBR.

So, if you have the parts that COULD be used legitimately, then "constructive possession" is replaced by a more sensible "manner in which the parts are assembled" principle.

I think it would be largely dependant on individual cases. For example, if the only firearm you own is an AR pistol and you also have a verticle forward grip that can be attached, it would be fairly easy for them to make the argument that you intended to construct an AOW.

But if that AR pistol is part of a large collection, including one or more rifles that can accept the vertical forward grip, there is really no case for constructive possession. The VFG was meant for one of the long guns.

Same for SBR's. Having a 6 position stock and only an AR pistol is pretty incriminating. Having a 6 position stock, an AR pistol and several AR-15's, perhaps one or two bare recievers w/ kits and uppers awaiting assembly pretty much exonerates you.

On that note, I don't think it would ever be a good idea to have a shorty AR upper along with a lower to which it can mate without having filed for and recieved your SBR stamp.

mp510
November 17, 2006, 12:47 AM
You can get the buttstock before being approved, just don't put it on. But then again, I just waited when I did mine.

The ATF calls that constructive and many, otherwise law abiding folks, have been handed significant jail terms and FELONY convictions under that doctrine.

Glockman17366
November 17, 2006, 03:47 AM
On RRA's page (in their catalogue or website) displaying pistol uppers (both .223 and 9mm, they describe them to be for pistols and SBR's.

You've just got to do it yourself (install the upper and have the engraving done).
I'd e-mailed RRA about the engraving part of building an SBR. They told me the best way to do it and said it wouldn't void the warranty.

When you read the requirements for modifying a rifle to an SBR, I think you'd understand why they don't sell directly to individuals...it's too much paperwork.

rob_s
November 17, 2006, 05:27 AM
The ATF calls that constructive and many, otherwise law abiding folks, have been handed significant jail terms and FELONY convictions under that doctrine.
Can you please provide links so that the rest of us can research these cases?

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