C&R Refinish Question


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noresttill
August 18, 2006, 02:13 AM
My 03 FFL finally came in, but I have a question regarding keeping guns "original"

If I want to buy a beater CR rifle for cheap, and refinish it with a different color stock or metal, would I be breaking the law? Or is it just physical stuff like barrel straightening?

Tapping for a scope? Are there any general rules?

Thanks, Jesse

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Gord
August 18, 2006, 02:32 AM
Ten million bubbas can't be wrong, and I haven't heard of anybody getting arrested over scoping a Mosin yet.

Of course, don't tell the boys over at Gunboards - they'll all have heart attacks. :D

noresttill
August 18, 2006, 02:47 AM
Just cause its old dont make it a collectable

I always wanted a pink and gold Garand ;)

Thanks,
Anyone else?

Jesse

ScottsGT
August 18, 2006, 09:14 AM
I want a hard chromed Garand with a black synthetic stock. Blasted/brushed finish, not shiney pimp looking.

zoom6zoom
August 18, 2006, 09:39 AM
My understanding is that a rifle that is otherwise C&R no longer is if it has been sporterized, so it can't be purchased with the license. However, once you own it, I don't think it matters what you do with it - but it may no longer qualify as C&R once you change it.

deadin
August 18, 2006, 11:14 AM
I believe Zoom is correct. I'm not sure exactly how much "alteration" is required to drop one out of the C&R definition. Restocking, rebarreling, stripping off parts will do it, but I don't know if drilling and tapping for a scope would be enough or not.
(I would guess that a pink and gold Garand would do it though :D )

Dean

noresttill
August 18, 2006, 11:36 AM
Thanks guys, as mentioned above Ive not heard of anyone getting in trouble, but I like to stay on the high road (freeway ;) ). I have somewhere around 400 pages of books and paperwork with that license, better get reading.

Jesse

Technosavant
August 18, 2006, 12:10 PM
Finishes don't matter. You can refinish the stock or the metal; the ATF doesn't care how shiny it is.

Replacing stocks and making permanent changes to the gun (drilling/tapping) can void the C&R status, depending on the gun. While this would be an issue for an SKS, it is much less so for a Mosin.

WayneConrad
August 18, 2006, 12:53 PM
Once it's no longer C&R eligible, be sure to log it out of your bound book as a transfer to yourself.

There are some eeeeevil guns that escape the "US vs. Foreign part count" restrictions because of their C&R status. The Yugo SKS comes to mind. If you alter one of those such that it's no longer C&R eligible, those restrictions become active.

noresttill
August 19, 2006, 01:22 PM
So if I change a mauser to 45 acp or any other "real" alteration, I must log it out of my book to myself. Makes perfect sense. I guess it couldn't hurt to log them out before doing anything to them.

How do I know which rifles fall under foreign parts count? I always hear about guns by name, not by distinctions. I checked 922r thinking it was there, but its only for assembly (or does changing a part warrent a build).

Thanks

Jesse

zoom6zoom
August 19, 2006, 01:57 PM
I guess it couldn't hurt to log them out before doing anything to them.

No. Don't log them out until they are "disposed", either by selling/trading, or becoming disqualified as C&R.

Technosavant
August 19, 2006, 08:44 PM
How do I know which rifles fall under foreign parts count? I always hear about guns by name, not by distinctions. I checked 922r thinking it was there, but its only for assembly (or does changing a part warrent a build).


Only those not considered as having a "sporting purpose." In practice, I think the SKS is pretty much the only one, and that mainly because of the detachable magazines which are available. I believe, but I am not certain, that if it is bolt-action (like most milsurps), 922r is not an issue.

SaxonPig
August 20, 2006, 01:51 PM
I do not belive that any modification affects C&R status. A friend of mine contacted ATF about this and was told they don't care about modified or customized guns. If it was made 50 years ago or is specifically listed it is C&R even if cut up, painted or sporterized.

Since the frame alone is considered the gun by ATF, and everything else is just parts, what difference would it make to modify those parts?

If changing the gun does lose C&R status somebody had better tell the hundreds of sellers with such guns listed for sale on the auction sites. They seem to think they are still C&R and I have to think somebody at ATF would be aware of all those guns being sold if they were in violation.

deadin
August 20, 2006, 02:37 PM
This discussion has driven me back to reading the regulations I received with my C&R. It appears that the "must be in original configuration" only applies to C&R MilSurps to qualify them for importation under an FFL08 or 11. So I think Saxon is right, the receiver is the gun, (once in the country) and alteration does not change their status.
This would preclude importing a fine European gunsmiths stalking rifle (etc.) that was built on an M-S or Mauser surplus action.

Dean

Technosavant
August 20, 2006, 05:50 PM
Saxon, that only matters on those 50+ year old guns.

But, there are popular firearms (Yugo SKS again) where it really does matter, and it really does have consequences. It's one thing when its a Mauser 98 or a Mosin-Nagant. It's something else when the gun can be dressed up to a point where it is illegal in various areas (leave the grenade launcher and bayonet on a 59/66, add a 30 round detachable magazine, then take it to downtown LA and show it to the LAPD, fun will be had).

Keep in mind that guns offered for auction are not always legal. The laws sometimes are murky at best, and some people just don't care about technical infractions of obscure and difficult laws. While you might not end up in a federal penitentiary for buying a 59/66 that has been sporterized without making it 922r compliant, that action is certainly unwise.

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