Pulled over in VA, cop asked for my gun.


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steveracer
August 18, 2006, 08:55 AM
I got pulled over for speeding yesterday, and as usual, I was carrying. I had all my credentials out when he walked up to the car, and my hands on the steering wheel. I hended him my license (NY) my registration (VA), my military ID (Navy), and my concealed weapons permit (VA). I've done this a few dozen times.

In VA, the cop runs your license, and gets your CCW info, so I usually just tell him, as a courtesy, "I've got a loaded ______ pistol on my right waist."
This time he wanted it.

Now, I did give it to him, holstered, and he walked back to his car with it. This bugged me. I had another gun right there in the lock box in the console, but I was still a little peeved about him taking my gun. I had been speeding, 10 over, not a jailable offense, and was polite with the cop, so I couldn't see him taking my gun for legal reasons.

What do you folks do?

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cavman
August 18, 2006, 08:59 AM
"A few dozen times"!!

Fortunately I haven't been pulled over in about eight or nine years.

But I think it would have bugged me too.

Baba Louie
August 18, 2006, 09:01 AM
Can I assume he gave your gun back to you?
What do you folks do?Usually obey posted speed limits ;)
Otherwise I ALWAYS do whatever the LEO requests. I've found life to be much more enjoyable that way.

progunner1957
August 18, 2006, 09:05 AM
I see no reason for him to take your gun. You did get it back, correct?

My policy if stopped by the police is "Don't ask, don't tell."

Phantom Warrior
August 18, 2006, 09:07 AM
*shrug*

Cops are like that. It pisses me off, frankly. But what can you do? Tell him no? Get into an argument over a loaded gun? THAT won't get handcuffed in the back of a squad car.

I once heard the phrase "You argue law in court, not on the side of the road." And that is the bottom line here. He may have been legally allowed to do that, he may not have. I don't know Virginia law. Will it be more hassle than it worth to get into an argument over a loaded gun on the side of the road? Probably. Does it still piss me off? Yeah...

dm1333
August 18, 2006, 09:08 AM
He pulls you over, you have a gun. He doesn't know what to expect from you, despite the fact that you have a CCW, so for his safety he takes the weapon and secures it until the traffic stop is over. Then he returns the weapon. You might drive away angry but he is going home alive at the end of his shift. The fact that you have a CCW or a military ID should not play at all into the equation because neither one is a guarantee of good behavior from you. Don't take that as an insult because I am also on active duty. I'm not familiar with CCW in VA at all so I don't know what the requirements are but I can guarantee you that if I was stationed in the area and boarded a boat that you were on I would do the exact same thing.

XavierBreath
August 18, 2006, 09:16 AM
In states where you have a duty to inform, it is the officer's decision whether or not to disarm you. Anything but compliance under these circumstances is the wrong answer.

There may be things happening that you are not privy to. There may be an APB out on a vehicle very similar to yours. The last CCW holder the officer stopped might have been an ass. There may be a Navy man who is wanted for beating his wife to death that morning. The officer may just feel the need to go the extra step to disarm you to feel safe himself. His reason does not matter. he doesn't know you from Adam, and he has the right and authority to disarm you if he feels the need. It may not seem right to the private citizen who is stopped, simply because they do not have the same information as the officer, nor are they performing the same job under the same circumstances.

Over the years, I have had official encounters with law enforcement, and not been disarmed. I have, however, been disarmed a couple of times by LEOs. Both times I allowed an officer to unholster my weapon while keeping my hands out. Both times I had a fleeting fear of a 1911 with the thumb safety off and an officer with his finger on the trigger. Both times the encounter was handled professionally, and I was given my weapon back at the conclusion of the encounter. I am very surprised that the officer allowed you to disarm yourself.

Don't begrudge the officer for disarming you. He has that right, and the authority to make the decision in the field based on his knowledge at the time. If I had to do his job, I would want the same right and authority.

RNB65
August 18, 2006, 09:16 AM
Maybe you should learn to obey the speed limit. Then this wouldn't be an issue.

:rolleyes:

robert garner
August 18, 2006, 09:40 AM
Cops can have my gun, they're not a problem for me,unless my:cuss: causes
them to be!I'll just hand it over kinda:o ,and:scrutiny: my behavior later! so next time we can be:cool: and everybodycan be:) right?;)

zoom6zoom
August 18, 2006, 09:49 AM
Watch your speed this weekend.... Virginia will be running "enhanced enforcement" on 95 and 81 including the use of aviation assets. They plan another crackdown next month as well.

MechAg94
August 18, 2006, 09:53 AM
Think about it from the LEO point of view
He pulls you over, you have a gun. He doesn't know what to expect from you, despite the fact that you have a CCW, so for his safety he takes the weapon and secures it until the traffic stop is over. Then he returns the weapon. You might drive away angry but he is going home alive at the end of his shift. The fact that you have a CCW or a military ID should not play at all into the equation because neither one is a guarantee of good behavior from you. Don't take that as an insult because I am also on active duty. I'm not familiar with CCW in VA at all so I don't know what the requirements are but I can guarantee you that if I was stationed in the area and boarded a boat that you were on I would do the exact same thing.

With the restrictions in TX, the people with squeaky clean records who get a CHL are not the people an officer will need to worry about. I have been pulled over once while carrying. I got a verbal warning. The officer wanted to know where I had the gun, but didn't bother with anything else.
I think I understand your concern, but it seems to me that CHL holders are less of a concern than those that don't hold a CHL.

MechAg94
August 18, 2006, 09:56 AM
I agree with others. If you have been pulled over a few dozen times, I think I detect a pattern here that suggests your behavior needs to be modified. I drive faster than average down here, but I generally don't go more than 10 MPH over (except in school zones). Most officers down here was bug you at those speeds. But then I drive a truck.

mtnbkr
August 18, 2006, 10:08 AM
In Virginia, you don't have to inform the officer if you're carrying or not. Keep your trap shut. He'll know via the computer that you have your license anyway.

In the 6 years I've had my license, I've been stopped and had my DL run by police 4 times.

1st time: Expired county sticker, just moved and hadn't received my new one yet. Officer made no mention of my CCW.

2nd time: Expired registration. My fault, just plain forgot. Officer made no mention of my CCW.

3rd time: Had my plates stolen off my car, was on the way to Autozone to get new screws to attach new plates. Plate in rear window fell down and out of sight en route. Officer pulled me over to inform me (no prob once I explained where I was headed) and ended up running my detailed info (city of birth, etc) when it turned out my name was the same as a wanted felon (probably the same reason I always get delayed for 45min by NICS). Officer made no mention of my CCW.

4th time: Auto accident. Officer made no mention of my CCW.

I never mentioned my CCW. I was polite and cooperated each time. I was never disarmed.

Chris

tulsamal
August 18, 2006, 10:11 AM
"A few dozen times"!!

That does jump out at you, doesn't it?!

I'm 44 and fast approaching 45. Been driving since I was 15.5 like most other male Americans. Drive every day. I've NEVER seen the flashing red lights in my mirror. Never even had a warning, much less a ticket.

Got to be some kind of lesson there!

G

Sistema1927
August 18, 2006, 10:22 AM
Wow! It has been 32 years since I was last pulled over, and I drive an average of 40,000 miles a year.

"A couple of dozen times" may be an indicator that other things are also amiss, and it might just be that the LEO picked up a bad vibe. I would have no problem if an officer asked to temporarily take possession of my carry weapon.

zoom6zoom
August 18, 2006, 10:22 AM
Never even had a warning, much less a ticket.

OOh, you said it out loud. Never say it out loud. You just jinxed yourself...

WayneConrad
August 18, 2006, 10:29 AM
Some suggest that CCW carriers are as law abiding as cops. Some say more law abiding. If true, it is an act of irrational predjudice for a cop to disarm a CCW holder and not insist that his or her fellow officers also disarm "for his safety."

On the other hand, it's just a piece of paper and plastic and like any ID document can be fabricated. Until the cop can verify that this is the person named on the CCW and the CCW is legitimate, I think some caution on his or her part might be a good thing.

PS: Going faster, for the distances most of us drive, hardly gets you there faster.

bogie
August 18, 2006, 10:31 AM
After the stop was concluded, and he'd handed it back...

"Uh, sir, if you had cause enough to be suspicious of me to take the legal weapon off my hip, you really should have terry frisked me and also searched my vehicle for other weapons. I'm just worried for your safety from the criminals out there..."

Ryder
August 18, 2006, 10:50 AM
What do you folks do?

Me, myself, and I stay out of Virginia. That's what us folks do.

Kentak
August 18, 2006, 10:59 AM
I follow the requests of the cop, that's what I do. In Ohio, they have the right to have control of the weapon during the stop--for their own safety. They don't *have* to do it, but some may feel like making a point of it. Shrug it off.

K

Pilgrim
August 18, 2006, 11:01 AM
Now, I did give it to him, holstered, and he walked back to his car with it. This bugged me. I had another gun right there in the lock box in the console, but I was still a little peeved about him taking my gun. I had been speeding, 10 over, not a jailable offense, and was polite with the cop, so I couldn't see him taking my gun for legal reasons.
It's been over ten years since I was stopped because I forgot to put the registration sticker on the license plate. The previous time I was stopped for anything was in 1966, so I don't have much experience in this where it appears you have many experiences.

Yes, it does seem absurd that he is worried about the gun you freely tell him about, yet he has no concern that you may have other weapons. I was always taught that if you find one weapon on a contact, keep looking because there are probably more.

Officers are taught to control situations, and undoubtedly this officer felt he was controlling the situation by taking your pistol. If this really bothers you, I suggest you change your behavior so you don't attract police attention so much.

Pilgrim

Phetro
August 18, 2006, 11:15 AM
Don't begrudge the officer for disarming you. He has that right, and the authority to make the decision in the field based on his knowledge at the time. If I had to do his job, I would want the same right and authority.

Okay, fine. Then we get to disarm the cops too. Why do our guns put them in danger but theirs don't have the same effect on us?

There is no excuse for the hypocritical conduct that governments or their agents engage in, no matter what pretenses they do it under. The fact of the matter is the cop disarmed someone he had no probable cause did anything other than speed a bit on the road. And if he had probable cause, he should have mentioned it.

No double standards.

steveracer
August 18, 2006, 11:23 AM
Seriously, how many of you guys have never done 10 mph over the limit?
My biggest ticket, ever, was 77 in a 55. That's on our freeway, 264E, at night, sober(always), and just going home from work. That got me landed in a cell for reckless driving, because in VA, if you break the 20 over limit, you are a dnagerous criminal and must be locked up.
I've been pulled over lots of times, but mostly because I have always been driving crap cars with something or another wrong with them. My current car has 286k miles it, and I have a finnicky middle tail light. I've been pulled four times for that.
I have had NO tickets in five years, of any kind, and only three in ten years. I get pulled over a LOT more than I get ticketed. Having NY plates here in VA for a while was the biggest cop magnet. I switched it over, and now I have VA plates in NY pretty often, and get pulled over a lot up there. It's usually "easy money" on the part of the officer. He figures I don't live there, won't come to court, and will just send a check.
I got my gun back, and told him to have a nice day. (he didn't ticket me) and that's that. I just don't like the disarming routine.

Geno
August 18, 2006, 11:30 AM
Don't pitch a @*&$% get a petition signed and change the law.

I now agree that it is unreasonable. A month ago I was not so concerned, but now we have a new Jokeland County (oooops sorry) Oakland County happening.

At present, there is a group of police impostors in Rochester Hills, Michigan pulling people over. So, let's assume that they pull you over. They take your gun and flee, what are your going to do? When you call and report it, it will take several minutes just to convince the department that it was probably not a real cop. By then, your gun is LONG gone.

Sounds like flawed logic has led to a flawed law. If we are honest enough to have a MCPL (CCW), why take it away, save for a probable cause felony?

Doc2005

Correia
August 18, 2006, 11:32 AM
Utah is a duty to inform state. So we're required to by law to tell them we're armed.

99.99% of the time the cops are cool, and don't have an issue. They usually ask where the gun is, and for you to please leave it there. .01% of the time, you get a jerk.

Now what I tell my students, if you get one of those jerks, there is a time and a place to be a 2nd Amendment activist. The side of the freeway at 2:00 AM is not the time or the place. Just do whatever is required to get out of the problem, which means complying with the jerk.

Afterwards, raise a stink. If you were mistreated, call their department and file a complaint.

bowfin
August 18, 2006, 11:38 AM
Tell the cop "Since we both have guns, let's make a gentleman's agreement that we will both keep them holstered." Never trust a person who doesn't trust you. "All is yellow to the jaundiced eye", as the Bard used to say.

If a police officer is that paranoid of the citizenry, given no cause, he might need to consider alternative career options.

Anyhow, anytime you are dealing with a LEO, even if you called him, get a card and the name of his immediate supervisor. Just asking for it sometimes moves the encounter to a better level.

Desk Jockey
August 18, 2006, 11:47 AM
Been driving since I was 15.5 like most other male Americans. Drive every day. I've NEVER seen the flashing red lights in my mirror. Never even had a warning, much less a ticket.

No, that's not like most other male Americans. Most of us have racked up at least 3 or 4 tickets by the time we hit 30. ;)

I'm the same age as you, and just recently (~2 yrs) realized what you've known all along - 10 mph over might get you there a minute earlier, but it's not worth the extra stress. Of course, it helps when the speed limit is 75. That's about fast enough for the cars I drive.

saltydog
August 18, 2006, 11:51 AM
Maybe you should learn to obey the speed limit. Then this wouldn't be an issue.

Good advice. I don't give police any reason to pull me over. I'm 53 and never had a ticket.:D

Malum Prohibitum
August 18, 2006, 11:56 AM
This is for officer safety, so hand the gun over. The cop does not know whether you are dangerous - you could be one of the many thousands of firearms license holders in Virginia who shoot cops every year.

His fear is rational and justified.

RealGun
August 18, 2006, 11:58 AM
you could be one of the many thousands of firearms license holders in Virginia who shoot cops every year.

What the !#$@% are you talking about?

tanksoldier
August 18, 2006, 12:01 PM
Even here in Colorado, with some of the best RKBA laws in the nation, cops have the right to temporarily disarm you. OTOH we don't have to tell them we're armed, either... unless the specifically ask

Right or wrong, in the long run it's probably safer for you (if the cop is jittery about private citizens being armed) for him to have your gun for a bit. Keeps misunderstandings to a minimum.

Lupinus
August 18, 2006, 12:13 PM
should they be allowed to disarm you with no cause? No, they shouldn't for several reasons.

One- They don't know my firearm or how to operate it and if they go to unload it or some such, I don't trust them to be safe with it.

Two- I don't know what their gun handeling safty skills are. They may be a cop and trained in firearms but then I know a lot of people who are "trained" I wont go near when they have a gun because I don't feel like getting shot.

Three- I don't trust them to properly handel my firearm and not scratch, ding, drop, etc my firearm. Guns aren't cheap, even the cheap ones are not cheap, and I don't want my property damaged. I know a CCW gun should be expected to get worn and what not but that doesn't mean I shouldn't be worried about preventing it as much as possible.

Four- Because once a gun is out of the holster the chances of a ND or AD go through the roof and I for one prefer not taking that chance.

Five- Because I am an American Citizen, who will have passed a pretty good backround check that shows I haven't commited a violent crime, don't have mental issues, and a host of other things you should worry about. I am not going to shoot you, I have no plans to, so me keeping my gun doesn't effect your officer safty, if anything it effects mine for the duration of my disarmerment.

So should they disarm you? No. Should they be allowed to? If you have a valid CCW and there are not other circumstances present, then no. But am I going to argue with a cop on the side of the road after I just informed him I had a loaded gun? Hell no, it isn't the time nor the place and I don't feel like putting up with the BS.

RealGun
August 18, 2006, 12:14 PM
in the long run it's probably safer for you (if the cop is jittery about private citizens being armed) for him to have your gun for a bit. Keeps misunderstandings to a minimum.

Transferring a loaded and ready pistol is not "safe". The best situation is for all guns to remain in their holsters. A policeman's request for my gun would conflict with my resolve not be shot with my own gun. Some, perhaps many, do not have the ability to disarm without unholstering the gun.

Phetro
August 18, 2006, 12:14 PM
you could be one of the many thousands of firearms license holders in Virginia who shoot cops every year.

What the !#$@% are you talking about?

He's talking about a little thing called :rolleyes:

:D

mtnbkr
August 18, 2006, 12:16 PM
This is for officer safety, so hand the gun over. The cop does not know whether you are dangerous - you could be one of the many thousands of firearms license holders in Virginia who shoot cops every year.
Nevermind. My sarcasm gene isn't working too well today...

Chris

Rockrivr1
August 18, 2006, 12:21 PM
Last year I was careless and was speeding through a rural neighborhood and got pulled over for doing almost 20mph over the speed limit. It was the first time I was pulled over since I got my CCW and unforutunately I had changed my CCW location from my pants pocket to the front inside pocket of my jacket. Even worse was that it was formerly the place where I kept my wallet. When the officer, who was pretty pissed at how fast I was going, asked form my license and registration, I instinctively reached into my front jacket pocket for my wallet. I realized at the last instance that it wasn't my wallet my hand was on and immediately went to another pocket that my wallet was in. (Immediate cold sweat started) Mass doesn't have a law that states we have to disclose our CCW status, so I didn't tell the officer I was carrying. Got a big fat ticket though.

I posted about this and unfortunately the post turned into a HUGE flame war between me and several other members. Most who also indicated my stupidity for going so fast. (I'm giving the clean version) That in turn got other members involved about how people make mistakes, nobodies perfect. It was no surprise when the post was locked down. I'm pretty sure I made it to the ignore list of several members for that one.

Everyone speeds. Some only slightly, but others more frequently. I haven't been pulled over a dozon times, but I've had my fair share. It happens. If speeding is your only vise, that isn't so bad in my book.

The officer taking your firearm temporarily doesn't bother me so much though. I figure he's being overly safe, but in today's world, I don't blame him.

bruss01
August 18, 2006, 12:32 PM
Seriously, how many of you guys have never done 10 mph over the limit?
My biggest ticket, ever, was 77 in a 55. That's on our freeway, 264E, at night, sober(always), and just going home from work. That got me landed in a cell for reckless driving, because in VA, if you break the 20 over limit, you are a dnagerous criminal and must be locked up.
I've been pulled over lots of times, but mostly because I have always been driving crap cars with something or another wrong with them. My current car has 286k miles it, and I have a finnicky middle tail light. I've been pulled four times for that.
I have had NO tickets in five years, of any kind, and only three in ten years. I get pulled over a LOT more than I get ticketed. Having NY plates here in VA for a while was the biggest cop magnet. I switched it over, and now I have VA plates in NY pretty often, and get pulled over a lot up there. It's usually "easy money" on the part of the officer. He figures I don't live there, won't come to court, and will just send a check.
I got my gun back, and told him to have a nice day. (he didn't ticket me) and that's that. I just don't like the disarming routine.

HAHAHAHAHAH!!!

Around here, if you aren't doing at least 77 in a 55 you will get run over and cause a huge backup on the freeway. Assuming, of course, that there isn't already a huge backup on the freeway. Anyone doing 55 in a 55 is assumed to be drunk or toting drugs or other contraband and trying WAY TOO HARD to NOT get stopped. These people tend to get stopped for "tail light out" stops - when the driver points out that the tail light isn't out, they get told "then you have an intermittent problem, sir, better get that wiring checked out". Just going with the flow here, however much over the limit, will result in your probability of being stopped to ridiculously low odds. Driving in CA since 1998 I have been stopped a grand total of ONCE and for years I typically drove 75 or 80 on the 40 minute drive to work everyday. I looked at getting pulled over that once as the "permit fee" for having all those speedy miles and considered it worthwhile. I guess the officer appreciated my relaxed attitude and clean record because he let me off with a VERBAL warning, no paperwork. For doing nearly 80 on the freeway. Guess it's a regional thing.

Of course, this being CA if there'd been a loaded gun in the car at the time I'd be doing time in the Graybar hotel right now for using a fiream in the commission of a crime....

Phetro
August 18, 2006, 12:55 PM
I posted about this and unfortunately the post turned into a HUGE flame war between me and several other members. Most who also indicated my stupidity for going so fast. (I'm giving the clean version) That in turn got other members involved about how people make mistakes, nobodies perfect. It was no surprise when the post was locked down. I'm pretty sure I made it to the ignore list of several members for that one.

Pfft. Don't let the do-gooder busybodies get to you. Their self-righteousness ends the minute their computers shut down, and they get back in their cars, doing 15-30 mph over the limit because their lives are oh-so-important.

The question is not whether speeding is acceptable. The question is where and when one can safely speed, and by how much. Anyone who answers "nowhere and never" will be first in line to hand in their guns when they're told--remember that before you heed anything they say.

Moondoggie
August 18, 2006, 01:07 PM
Look at it this way...if you raise a stink about relinquishing your firearm because you're primarily concerned about overall safety (stranger handling an unfamiliar weapon, possible AD/ND) what's probably going to happen is that ALL the weapons present are going to get unholstered. The risk factor has increased significantly. How do you think your firearm is going to be handled by the officer after he cuffs you and removes it from your holster?


Once an officer takes a position with a "client", and the law supports that officer's decision, he's NOT gonna back down. You're NOT going to talk him into changing his mind. If you don't go along with the program, you're going to have a very negative experience. What would YOU do as a LEO after someone informed you that they were armed and then copped an attitude about surrendering the weapon??? Could even lead to revocation of your CHL if the officer wants to make a big deal out of it. Could lead to a felony conviction (resisting/obstructing) if the moon and planets align against you. Buh bye all of your firearms for life. Hello to almost being able to claim an atty as a dependent on your 1040.

The question is....."Does it ever happen? Can it happen to you?"

One of the primary tenants IMHO of concealed carry is to avoid/defuze conflict. Behavior that you should realize by now is likely to bring you into contact with LEO should be avoided.

When you took your training for your CHL, I'm sure they covered the part of the law that said a LEO has the right to disarm you during contact. You signed an application stating that you understood the laws pertaining to CCW and agreed to comply....just go along with the program.

Sometimes discretion really is the better part of valor.

AirForceShooter
August 18, 2006, 01:40 PM
First rule of LEOdom. "I will go home tonight".
It's that simple. The LEO making the stop wants to be safe.
And if you were in his/her shoes so would you.

AFS

Molon Labe
August 18, 2006, 02:05 PM
The LEO making the stop wants to be safe.But... there are many cops who do not take the weapon. Your argument implies that an LEO who does not take the weapon is not concerned about his safety, which is obviously not true.

There is a reason some cops take the weapon for minor infractions (e.g. speeding), and others do not. What is the reason? I can think of a few:

1. The cop is a JBT, and doesn't like the idea of "civilians" bearing arms. Taking the gun is his way of showing his contempt for civilians who have the nerve to carry guns. If this is the case, he shouldn't be cop.

2. The cop is paranoid. If this is the case, he shouldn't be cop.

3. The cop is inherently distrustful of people. If this is the case, he shouldn't be cop.

Suffice to say, a cop that always takes a weapon regardless of the offense (even for speeding) has a mental problem, and hence should not be a cop.

Byron Quick
August 18, 2006, 02:06 PM
Well, I'm well between the perfectly safe, law abiding drivers among us and that irresponsible scofflaw driver. Much closer to him than the 'never been stopped' crowd.

I've never been stopped in a 'duty to inform' state. I have, on occasion, told the officer I was legally armed or included my CHL with my driver's license. The officer has never even asked where it was located.

I dropped my license one afternoon after receiving a warning ticket. My weapon was exposed as I bent down to retrieve it. The trooper asked if I had a permit. I answered in the affirmative. He did not ask to see it and we stood on the shoulder for thirty minutes talking about shooting, hunting, and guns.

I've been stopped a few times coming back from an all day trip to the range over the years. The answer to "Do you have any weapons in the vehicle?" was darned amusing: "10 long guns, six handguns, a submachine gun, several throwing knives, and a 400 year old samurai sword, officer." On a couple of these occasions, the officer wished to take possession of the weapons and clear them during the stop. Now I had no basic problem with the officer doing so. Traffic stops would be extremely nerve wracking if I were in his position...I prefer to do my part in keeping Officer Friendly-Officer Friendly and not overly nervous. Only problem is that each and every time this has occurred, it was obvious that the officer had no clue as to how to safely clear some of the weapons and I was covered at least once each time by a muzzle of a weapon. A couple of times more than once.

The only problem I have with an officer taking possession of my weapon(s) during a stop is that, based on personal experience, I have little confidence in his ability to safely handle the weapon(s). The officers need to be trained to not attempt to clear weapons they are unfamiliar with and to obey the four safety rules at all times.

RealGun
August 18, 2006, 02:06 PM
So tell us how disarming actually occurs. Do I get out of my vehicle at gunpoint and put my hands on the roof or hood? Is the officer's safety the only real concern? I think if I was an officer I might want to leave well enough alone if presented with an authentic carry license.

An honest citizen with no ill intentions will inform an officer, if the law so requires. A criminal will not, so only the good guys get treated poorly here.

sacp81170a
August 18, 2006, 02:27 PM
Okay, fine. Then we get to disarm the cops too. Why do our guns put them in danger but theirs don't have the same effect on us?

*Sigh* I've heard that line of thinking dozens of times(notice I did not say reasoning). If there is a deadly force confrontation, you as a non-sworn citizen may not have a duty to retreat, but neither do you have a duty to stick around. The best tactic in such a situation may be to get out of the area as quickly as possible. The LEO, on the other hand, has sworn that he or she *will* stick around and has a positive duty to do so. That is why LEO's are given so much discretion in the use of physical force.

You can back down, exit, flee, beat feet, etc. and you will be praised for your common sense. The LEO who does so will be villified and most likely lose their job. We really don't get paid enough to put our lives on the line on a regular basis, but then neither do firefighters and military personnel. When I'm on duty, no way in h311 am I gonna surrender control of my firearm to anyone but a supervisor or fellow officer. Law and common sense are on my side, your opinion has no bearing on the matter.

Smurfslayer
August 18, 2006, 02:37 PM
This is for officer safety, so hand the gun over. The cop does not know whether you are dangerous - you could be one of the many thousands of firearms license holders in Virginia who shoot cops every year.


I swear I can hear bleating... :rolleyes:


First, statistically speaking automobiles present several factors of magnitude more risk to traffic officers than firearms. Second, and more important, I frankly couldn't care less about his/her safety over my own. Mine is more important. As some others have pointed out there is a wide disparity in policies by state. By and large, when you are stopped for a traffic offense in Virginia, it's a misdemeanor. 10 over is not, in and of itself anything worse than a fine, however the traffic stop *IS* a detention and potentially an arrest. The test is if you are not "free to go"- you're in custody. In custody, the officer has discretion to either issue a citation or take you before a magistrate if for some reason you are presenting a threat, etc. In fact, in Virginia they are required to issue the citation by statute unless you are posing a threat, or you may in the officer's opinion be a flight risk, not show up for court, etc...

If you got a warning, or citation you were clearly not a threat. In VA, you can only resist an unlawful arrest, not a lawful one and in your case more than likely your arrest was lawful. Even so, the facts don't support this kind of stupidity.

The only way the officer's approach gets changed is to file a complaint with the department. It may sound like a whiny reaction but think about it - it's the only legitimate recourse you have to have the department ACTUALLY THINK about this practice.

As for what to do - Think about this: There have been several innocent citizens killed in VA in the last 15 years at the hands of law enforcement. The court standard for prosecution of LE here is "gross negligence". Your death would not be gross negligence, even if the cop shot you with your gun under these circumstances. Added on top of this extremely high burden to overcome is that most of the Commonwealths Attorneys will not prosecute a law enforcement officer. Ever. It's also the department's discretion who investigates a citizen fatality - most of the time it's the same department.

Hey - Former PWC sheriff Stoffgren just got a deal for swindling that AR15 when he left office - was in the Freelance Star and Richmond Times Dispatch. Now, do you seriously believe you'd get the same sweetheart non felony deal (despite being WAY over $200) ?

Definitely talk to the department chief; formal complaint or not.

XavierBreath
August 18, 2006, 02:40 PM
Once an officer takes a position with a "client", and the law supports that officer's decision, he's NOT gonna back down. You're NOT going to talk him into changing his mind. If you don't go along with the program, you're going to have a very negative experience. What would YOU do as a LEO after someone informed you that they were armed and then copped an attitude about surrendering the weapon??? Moondoggie....... Post #39. Excellent!

Okay, fine. Then we get to disarm the cops too. Why do our guns put them in danger but theirs don't have the same effect on us?

No double standards.This course of action is ill advised.

There are many reasons an officer may want to temporarily disarm a law abiding private citizen. The law gives him that right, despite your clearing a background check that allows you to carry concealed. If you refuse his lawful request to be disarmed, you have just committed a firearms violation. Your experience will quickly go South, and you will not have a pleasant evening.

Just because a person qualified for a CHL three years ago does not mean he is not now engaged in criminal activity. It does not mean he is not dangerous. It does not mean he is not now a fugitive from justice. It simply means he was not convicted of a disqualifying offense when he applied for the CHL. That is all a CHL tells an officer, other than the fact you are likely armed.

On the other hand..... There was one night that I called in a complaint from my home at 2AM. When the responding officers arrived, I handed them my driver's license as well as my CHL. They asked if I was armed. I responded affirmatively. I was carrying a 1911 under my jacket. They disarmed me on my own front porch. After the encounter, the responding officer returned my weapon and thanked me. I told him no worries. Afterall, I had a shotgun leaning against the wall inside the front door.

Father Knows Best
August 18, 2006, 02:42 PM
I've been stopped a few times coming back from an all day trip to the range over the years. The answer to "Do you have any weapons in the vehicle?" was darned amusing: "10 long guns, six handguns, a submachine gun, several throwing knives, and a 400 year old samurai sword, officer."

That's nothing. When I moved from Tennessee to Minnesota a few months ago, I loaded all my firearms and ammo in my car for the trip (the movers wouldn't take ammo, and I didn't trust them with the guns). We visited my in-laws in Michigan first, and then took the SS Badger car ferry across Lake Michigan to Wisconsin.

When I drove up to the gate where you turn over your vehicle to be loaded onto the ferry, the nice lady asked me whether I had any firearms or ammunition in the car. Um, yeah. "What do you have?" she asked. "Rifles, pistols, shotguns, ammo, you name it," I replied. "I need you to list them for me," she said. "How many sheets of paper do you have?" I asked. She looked at me for a minute, realized I wasn't kidding, and called for a supervisor.

Thankfully, the supervisor was very matter-of-fact and not at all alarmist. He didn't blink at all at the long list of firearms, but I think I saw an eyebrow get raised at the 8,000 rounds of .308 and 5,000 rounds of 7.63x29. :evil:

Creeping Incrementalism
August 18, 2006, 03:03 PM
Around here, if you aren't doing at least 77 in a 55 you will get run over and cause a huge backup on the freeway.

I agree with you on that. Living in California sucks, but one thing I worry very little about is being pulled over for doing 80 on the freeway (w/ speed limit 50-65). I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but when everyone is going that fast, the chances are slim to none unless you are doing something else wrong or look suspicious. Most often, when you see CHP, they are doing 90, without any lights on. The only person I know who got pulled over by the CHP for speeding was doing 95 in a 65.

That being said, I keep it at 70 when driving with guns, but that is probably being over cautious. And I got pulled over for doing 81 in a 70 on a rural state highway with virtually no traffic by Nevada Highway Patrol--dude stopped and flipped a u-ie just to catch up to me. He also added driving without insurance to it because there was a typo on the VIN of the insurance card. He knew it was a typo and that the car was insured, but he said, "Sorry, if I see it I have to cite it". So I got a $75 speeding ticket and a $750 driving without insurance ticket. Thankfully, the courts in that county dismissed the insurance bit after the insurance company sent them a letter letting them know it was a mistake.

Regarding cops taking away the firearms of obvious law-abiding people on the pretext that they want to go home, that doesn't make sense. If cops were truly concerned about their safety when they did this, they'd make everyone get out of the car, at gunpoint, then lie face down and spread eagled.

Regarding the argument that cops have a special duty to stay around when something dangerous happens (whatever, I've seen this "duty" broken or followed in only the most cautious way in many dangerous situations) may give them the right to cary a firearm in general, but it does not give them the right to disarm civillians, just because they have the option of fleeing.

glummer
August 18, 2006, 03:39 PM
What would YOU do as a LEO after someone informed you that they were armed and then copped an attitude about surrendering the weapon???
If he informed me, I wouldn't ask for the weapon, so there would be no "attitude."

First rule of LEOdom. "I will go home tonight".
It's that simple. The LEO making the stop wants to be safe.
And if you were in his/her shoes so would you.
Everybody wants to go home tonight. What makes LEO's any different from cab drivers?

And, feeling safe is not the same thing as being safe. Trying to disarm the driver may make you feel safe, if all you're doing is pulling rank on a law-abiding citizen. Bullying is one way to feel in control.
But if the subject IS armed and dangerous, and you don't know it, you're probably going to precipitate the very thing you fear.

baz
August 18, 2006, 03:42 PM
I haven't been stopped since I started carrying. I'm not too concerned about having to turn over my weapon during a stop if it comes to that, but my first instinct would be to unload it first. I always do that before I relinquish a weapon to the hands of another person.

What would an LEO think about that?

glummer
August 18, 2006, 03:55 PM
The LEO making the stop wants to be safe.
But... there are many cops who do not take the weapon. Your argument implies that an LEO who does not take the weapon is not concerned about his safety, which is obviously not true.
Insert loud applause here.

There is a reason some cops take the weapon, and others do not. What is the reason? I can think of a few:

1. The cop is a JBT, and doesn't like the idea of "civilians" bearing arms. Taking the gun is his way of showing his contempt for civilians who have the nerve to carry guns. This guy shouldn’t be a cop.

2. The cop is paranoid. This guy shouldn't be cop.

3. The cop is inherently distrustful of people. This guy shouldn't be cop.

4. The cop is cowardly, and bullying law-abiding citizens makes him feel better. It won't actually make him safer, but, hey, feelings count, right?

Correia
August 18, 2006, 04:04 PM
5th, and actual most common reason.

They don't know any better.

I'm dead serious. This came up at the last state gathering of concealed weapons instructors and the state Bureau of Criminal Identification (which takes care of permits in Utah).

Most of the problem cops are relatively new. When informed about the gun, they don't know what to do, so they disarm the CCW holder. Usually out of ignorance about officer safety.

This problem has been getting steadily better in recent years as permit holders become more and more common. We pushed for a unit to be inserted into the police academy curriculum about it, but nothing resulted, mostly from lack of time.

That said, there still is that small percentage that are just doofuses that fit into your reason 1-4. PvtPyle got pulled over the other day by one who was a complete jerk. They are out there.

And in defense of the original poster, I've been pulled over seven or eight times in the six years that I've carried a gun here. Never for excessive speeding, but usually because the speed limit is about ten miles an hour less than it should be. :) I've only gotten one ticket in my life and that was in California. (there is no way that a highway across the middle of the fricking desert should be 55 mph). Everytime I've been pulled over in Utah, I've been armed, usually much better than the officer, and I've only gotten warnings.

I was pulled over once in the middle of nowhere. 75 in a 65. (didn't even realize it was a 65). I had 2 guns on my person. Body armor on the seat next to me. A Wasatch plate carrier full of loaded magazines. And six rifles and shotguns in the back seat, all of them ARs, AKs, or Saigas.

Got a warning to slow it down. :)

I love Utah.

DoubleTapDrew
August 18, 2006, 04:44 PM
I haven't been stopped since I started carrying. I'm not too concerned about having to turn over my weapon during a stop if it comes to that, but my first instinct would be to unload it first. I always do that before I relinquish a weapon to the hands of another person.

What would an LEO think about that?
I hadn't thought about that until now. That's my first instinct also. Dropping the mag and racking the slide (to clear the one in the pipe) might get you drawn down on or shot pretty quickly in low light.
I appreciate the argument for officer safety but what would someone who WAS a bad guy and WAS contemplating shooting you going to answer to the "do you have any weapons?" question?
Also, pulling a loaded gun out of the holster, either by myself or the officer, then having he/she clear it is probably the worst possible thing for BOTH of our safety you could possibly do. A lot of people leave their carry guns in the holster when they remove them at night to reduce the chance of a ND and these are people who are familiar with the weapon! "Oops, sorry" wouldn't make me feel better if I was shot with my own weapon because it made the officer feel safer. I'd feel better with "please keep your hands where I can see them" (which I do anyway the few times I've been stopped).

MrZ
August 18, 2006, 04:51 PM
"I just don't like the disarming routine..."

You can NOT blaim any LEO for taking a weapon from an individual during a traffic stop, EVEN though it is legal, and I would argue that NOT taking it is STUPID on their part.

LEO's work for us, the good guys. They do the job I don't, and the VAST majority of us, don't want to do. What is that you ask? Deal with the absolute SCUM of our society on a DAILY basis at the risk of life and limb. And to make matters worse, they do so under a freaking microscope of scrutiny.

The more I, the good guy who may have been speeding or doing something stupid, cooperate with the officer, the faster I can make him available to deal with the bad guy, who may have been speeding or doing something stupid with a kilo of heroin in the trunk.

bamawrx
August 18, 2006, 05:06 PM
My buddy had a young buck deputy take his 1911 during a stop. Turns out he had NO CLUE how to use the handgun and was trying to "decock" the firearm with his finger on the trigger and depressing they thumb safety.

My buddy was alert and gave the instructions to the officer to operate the weapon. The stop did not go well and resulted in a letter to the chief. The chief spoke to my buddy later about incident and told him his CCW was no good here.

If the chief isn't aware of AL/FL reciprocity, and deputy can't operate non-glock, then I think I'll keep my mouth shut around here.

GonHuntin
August 18, 2006, 05:08 PM
I am a licensed instructor in a state with mandatory disclosure, I have never had an officer ask for my handgun......

If you think about it, disarming someone that tells you they have a permit and a loaded handgun is plain silly.......if I had the inclination to shoot an officer.......I would shoot him when he walked up to the door.....NOT after telling him I have a gun!!!:rolleyes:

Lupinus
August 18, 2006, 05:22 PM
Lupinus wins
sweet whats the prize? :D

I wonder what would happen to you though in all seriousness if the officer was stupid and ended up shooting himself in the foot (or someplace worse) or something like that.

Gon-
Thats why as has been said it doesn't make the officer safer, it just makes him feel that way and/or gets to a part of his brain that wants some control over the sheep. If I (or anyone else) wanted to shoot the officer it wouldn't be after informing them I had a gun.

I don't like people handeling my guns, esspecialy ones with no idea how to properly use them but try to anyway.

auschip
August 18, 2006, 05:40 PM
I swear I can hear bleating...

Must have been the noise causing you to miss the sarcasm in his post. ;)

Molon Labe
August 18, 2006, 05:47 PM
You can NOT blaim any LEO for taking a weapon from an individual during a traffic stopSure you can.

If an LEO pulls me over for a simple speeding violation, and he takes my weapon so he can feel "secure" or whatever, then he is entirely to blame.

Any cop who routinely takes guns from CCW holders during routine traffic stops, including minor traffic violations, has a mental problem.

stillamarine
August 18, 2006, 05:50 PM
When I was in MI and the CCW laws changed a couple years ago, a buddy and I decided that if we were ever asked to hand over our weapon that we would politely ask the officer to radio his dispatcher that he was doing so. This creates a time stamp of the incident and he can't turn around and say you drew on him.

Not all LEOs are nice guys. But most of them are trying. I think it was said earlier, not everyone with a CCW is law abiding. People with CCWs do kill people, true it may be a small minority but it happens.

CDA1776
August 18, 2006, 05:50 PM
I got pulled over for speeding yesterday, and as usual, I was carrying. I had all my credentials out when he walked up to the car, and my hands on the steering wheel. I hended him my license (NY) my registration (VA), my military ID (Navy), and my concealed weapons permit (VA). I've done this a few dozen times.

In VA, the cop runs your license, and gets your CCW info, so I usually just tell him, as a courtesy, "I've got a loaded ______ pistol on my right waist."
This time he wanted it.

Now, I did give it to him, holstered, and he walked back to his car with it. This bugged me. I had another gun right there in the lock box in the console, but I was still a little peeved about him taking my gun. I had been speeding, 10 over, not a jailable offense, and was polite with the cop, so I couldn't see him taking my gun for legal reasons.

What do you folks do?

Wow, sure living Free aren't you!? Got a permit to carry your gun (Big Government said you can - that's cute) and you let a Cop walk away with your gun.

Wow... I'm sure Jefferson and Washington would have done the same, and I bet all the Minutemen would have too.

I'm truley amazed that at least 80% of gun owners don't live a free lifestyle, or even know what freedom is. And this isn't just a jab at YOU, it's a jab at 99% of so called "Patriots".

mtnbkr
August 18, 2006, 06:01 PM
So what have you done in those situations? Don't tell us what you would do, what HAVE you done? Your example could embolden the rest of us.

Chris

RealGun
August 18, 2006, 06:59 PM
So what have you done in those situations? Don't tell us what you would do, what HAVE you done? Your example could embolden the rest of us.

That's if old enough to drive.:uhoh:

MrZ
August 18, 2006, 07:06 PM
"If an LEO pulls me over for a simple speeding violation, and he takes my weapon so he can feel "secure" or whatever, then he is entirely to blame.

Any cop who routinely takes guns from CCW holders during routine traffic stops, including minor traffic violations, has a mental problem."


I would highly recommend trying to get in on a "ride along" with your local police, if available. While the night may prove to be boring, you may have the opportunity to actually talk to a seasoned officer who may or may not enlighten you on the true nature of human beings.

YOU carry a gun for protection, and an LEO will take that gun for the same reason. Protection. Whether right or wrong, I'm sure the LEO would much rather hurt your feelings by taking your gun and giving it back, than get in a gun fight with a potential CCW carrying criminal. I would, and I bet YOU would do the same.

Lupinus
August 18, 2006, 07:14 PM
No I wouldn't

because I have the common sense to relize that if someone wanted to shoot me they aren't going to fist tell me they have a gun and Me, You, and everyone else in range is much safer if the gun stays in its holster then in my hands when it is a model I am not familer with :banghead:

12-34hom
August 18, 2006, 09:47 PM
There is a reason some cops take the weapon for minor infractions (e.g. speeding), and others do not. What is the reason? I can think of a few:

1. The cop is a JBT, and doesn't like the idea of "civilians" bearing arms. Taking the gun is his way of showing his contempt for civilians who have the nerve to carry guns. If this is the case, he shouldn't be cop.

2. The cop is paranoid. If this is the case, he shouldn't be cop.

3. The cop is inherently distrustful of people. If this is the case, he shouldn't be cop.

Suffice to say, a cop that always takes a weapon regardless of the offense (even for speeding) has a mental problem, and hence should not be a cop


Thank you Dr Phil...:barf: - Your response has all the hallmarks you attribute to this so called "JBT".

Molon Labe, is that the brand of beer you currently drink?

12-34hom.

makarova
August 18, 2006, 10:53 PM
I live in Ohio, where your chl comes up as soon as they run your license plate and you are required to notify the officer as soon as he approaches your car. When our chl law was passed the State Patrol were ordered as a matter of Standard Operating Procedure to always disarm the driver at traffic stops. Specifically they would order the driver to keep his hands on the steering wheel and he would reach in and pull the weapon from the holster. Trust me I am as negative about this as anyone here. Not only does this procedure violate a fundamental civil right, but it inherently endangers both parties when the leo handles a weapon, often in the dark, that he likely has no knowledge of whatsoever, and all this in the name of officer safety!
Naturally all this weighed heavily on my mind after I got my CHL and found out what was being done to permitees at traffic stops. As has been pointed out on this thread, a point blank refusal to be disarmed could ruin your whole day and possibly the rest of your life.
Sure enouph, on a trip to the VA hospital in Cincinnatti, I got clocked doing
72 on the Interstate, and yup the Patrol Officer informed me, that he was going to disarm me. In my best, nonconfrontational manner, I asked "Why, have I threatened you or given you reason to believe that I was dangerous?"
The officer was distinctly displeased and growled "No, just standard procedure." "I replied, so you're planning to handle a gun you haven't even seen yet, and dont even know what kind it is(it was dark and in my IWB right side, he would have had to go to the other side of my vehicle to see it), I know you have the legal right to do so, but did you ever consider thats a really bad idea? I really dont want to get shot with my own gun! He drew back and asked " Are you refusing to allow me to disarm you"? I quick replied,
Not at all, I'm just questioning why you're going to endange my safety." Look, I am going to disarm you whether you like it or not! I said Okay, but if I even remotely believe you pointed my gun at me, I will bring you up on charges! At this point I was betting, I would definitely miss my appointment. Anyway to make a long post shorter, the officer called for backup, his supervisor showed up, ordered me out of vehicle and pulled the gun out of the holster and proceeded to chew me out, or at least tried to. I wasn't having it, I just kept asking them how having an ND or AD was making anybody any safer. They didn't have an answer for that and finally wrote my ticket and let me go. And yeah I was late for the appointment. Lessons learned, ask for business cards and keep repeating that you'll be happy to comply while reminding them that an accidental shooting is not in their best interest. I believe if more of us did so they would be less willing to follow this dangerous practice.

Steve in PA
August 18, 2006, 11:55 PM
So what "charges" would you have brought him up on if the officer did laser you with your gun?? :rolleyes:

gunsmith
August 19, 2006, 01:44 AM
all the time, unless I am in a residential or school zone I'm over 10 above.

speed laws are an extortion racket...but at the same time I have excellent relations with LE and I always apologize for making them stop me, I am always polite...even friendly.

I have not been caught since I've gotten out of the motorcycle messenger biz.

My last ticket i was caught doing between 90 and 110 in a 65mph zone...the cop let me have a "over 65 ticket"....I didn't reveal i was packing heat because i was in Marin county CA and didn't have a ccw:evil: :D :neener:

I treat LE like they are family because I have family in LE & I want them treated good too.

I know I can not change traffic laws so I try not to get caught and I try to stay away from anal retentive traffic control areas.

Northern NV and northern CA are great compared to some of yer east coast anal retentive driving attitudes.

SLOWER TRAFFIC MUST MOVE RIGHT!

carpettbaggerr
August 19, 2006, 01:50 AM
So what "charges" would you have brought him up on if the officer did laser you with your gun??What "charges" would you bring a motorist up on if they were to laser you with their gun? :rolleyes:

And assuming the facts Makarova related are correct, how safe do you think it is to disarm a motorist in that fashion?

Reaching in through a window to remove a Glock or 1911 with a light trigger from a strong-side IWB holster? And getting your head and throat that close to a subject you consider dangerous enough to disarm? With no way to draw your service weapon, since you're reaching for his pistol with your strong hand?

Doesn't sound very bright to me.....

xd9fan
August 19, 2006, 01:57 AM
In VA, the cop runs your license, and gets your CCW info, so I usually just tell him, as a courtesy, "I've got a loaded ______ pistol on my right waist."
This time he wanted it.


I would drop the "courtesy line". This just makes it an issue for them to deal with.

Reyn
August 19, 2006, 02:32 AM
Im an LEO and have only taken two Pistols from a CCW holder. Both were DUI though. A female and a male. I pulled a guy over the other night who had his 1911 cocked and locked between the seats. I gave him a warning and then the converstion turned to pistols and shooting. No problem. Its the ones that start raising hell about pulling them over that raise an eyebrow. I clocked a guy one night at 106mph who threw a friggin fit. He said his car cuts off at 100 so there was no way he coulda been doin 106. Almost had to arrest him. If the person isnt getting all riled up then i see no reason to take the gun. If they start with the JBT pig comments , punching the steering wheel etc. then im taking the gun til the stop is over. People GENERALLY look at stops two ways. One they realized they were speeding, late for work, not paying attention, etc. The other just flat out refuse to take responsibility and want to blame the cops for harassing them UNTIL someone comes speeding past their house in a residential neighbor hood while their kids are riding their bikes THEN we become no good lazy doughnut eaters who will not enforce the law and do their job. So either way we lose.

Smurfslayer
August 19, 2006, 07:42 AM
So what "charges" would you have brought him up on if the officer did laser you with your gun??

Well, while the deck is heavily stacked against you it *IS* possible to get a warrant and successful prosecution on an officer in VA.

http://www.fredericksburg.com/News/FLS/2006/052006/05032006/188250

I talked to the reporter, and he confirmed that it was the citizen who got the warrant on this miscreant. Sure he only got humiliated, but I'll bet the Caroline deputies are much more careful drivers now.

So, my suggestion would be brandishing, a class 1 misdemeanor :neener:

Bill St. Clair
August 19, 2006, 01:00 PM
carpetbagger:
Reaching in through a window to remove a Glock or 1911 with a light trigger from a strong-side IWB holster? And getting your head and throat that close to a subject you consider dangerous enough to disarm? With no way to draw your service weapon, since you're reaching for his pistol with your strong hand?

Doesn't sound very bright to me.....

Indeed. If the driver is actually a danger to the cop, that behavior is a good recipe for a broken elbow or a crushed windpipe.

ilbob
August 19, 2006, 01:22 PM
I wonder how many cops are shot during encounters with law abiding armed citizens versus cops shooting law abiding citizens by mistake or otherwise.

The problem is that so called "officer safety" has become more important than citizen safety and citizen rights.

Rotorflyr
August 19, 2006, 02:04 PM
so you're planning to handle a gun you haven't even seen yet, and dont even know what kind it is(it was dark and in my IWB right side, he would have had to go to the other side of my vehicle to see it), I know you have the legal right to do so, but did you ever consider thats a really bad idea? I really dont want to get shot with my own gun! He drew back and asked " Are you refusing to allow me to disarm you"? I quick replied,


makarova,
You realize if the officer had wanted to, he could have arrested you right?
Remember, as foolish as it is, OH law states that a loaded gun in a vehicle must be either a)On ones person In plain sight* b)Be in a locked case in plain sight c)Locked in the glove box or d) In the trunk of the vehicle, stored seperately from the ammo (I believe it must also be unloaded in this situation but may be wrong) So if he would have had to go to the other side of the vehicle it could be argued/considered to not be "in plain sight"

*OH law currently does not define "plain sight" and there is a bill in the works to change this requirement

I agree that removing a firearm from a licensed ccw holder during a routine traffic stop isn't necessarily the best idea (not sure there really is anything "routine" about traffic stops though), however I think if it is going to be done, the weapon should be required to remain in it's holster/case even if this means you need to step out of the vehicle and unbuckle/unbutton to remove it

rock jock
August 19, 2006, 02:56 PM
I think it is pretty obvious to an outside observer that the profession of LE tends to attract the JBT/power-hungry/inferiority-complex group more so than other jobs. IMO, these jerks make up somewhere around 20% of LE. The rest are simply trying to serve their community. When stopped for a traffic violation, you don't know if you are going to get one of the JBT's or a true professional. However, it really doesn't matter, you still have to follow their directions to the point the law will allow. Just suck it up, hold your tongue, and don't make generalizations latter.

NineseveN
August 19, 2006, 02:59 PM
5th, and actual most common reason.

They don't know any better.

I'm dead serious. This came up at the last state gathering of concealed weapons instructors and the state Bureau of Criminal Identification (which takes care of permits in Utah).

Most of the problem cops are relatively new. When informed about the gun, they don't know what to do, so they disarm the CCW holder. Usually out of ignorance about officer safety.

This problem has been getting steadily better in recent years as permit holders become more and more common. We pushed for a unit to be inserted into the police academy curriculum about it, but nothing resulted, mostly from lack of time.

That said, there still is that small percentage that are just doofuses that fit into your reason 1-4. PvtPyle got pulled over the other day by one who was a complete jerk. They are out there.

And in defense of the original poster, I've been pulled over seven or eight times in the six years that I've carried a gun here. Never for excessive speeding, but usually because the speed limit is about ten miles an hour less than it should be. I've only gotten one ticket in my life and that was in California. (there is no way that a highway across the middle of the fricking desert should be 55 mph). Everytime I've been pulled over in Utah, I've been armed, usually much better than the officer, and I've only gotten warnings.

I was pulled over once in the middle of nowhere. 75 in a 65. (didn't even realize it was a 65). I had 2 guns on my person. Body armor on the seat next to me. A Wasatch plate carrier full of loaded magazines. And six rifles and shotguns in the back seat, all of them ARs, AKs, or Saigas.

Got a warning to slow it down.

I love Utah.

Correia has it, often it is out of ignorance rather than malice. That doesn't make me feel any better about it if it would happen to me, but let's not get too carried away with the cries of JBT-type stuff.

Double Naught Spy
August 19, 2006, 05:07 PM
You have a name like steveracer and there was a speeding ticket involved? Go figure.

I got pulled over for speeding yesterday, and as usual, I was carrying. I had all my credentials out when he walked up to the car, and my hands on the steering wheel. I hended him my license (NY) my registration (VA), my military ID (Navy), and my concealed weapons permit (VA). I've done this a few dozen times.

In VA, the cop runs your license, and gets your CCW info, so I usually just tell him, as a courtesy, "I've got a loaded ______ pistol on my right waist."
This time he wanted it.

Now, I did give it to him, holstered, and he walked back to his car with it. This bugged me. I had another gun right there in the lock box in the console, but I was still a little peeved about him taking my gun. I had been speeding, 10 over, not a jailable offense, and was polite with the cop, so I couldn't see him taking my gun for legal reasons.

What do you folks do?

So just what courtesy are you extending to the officer by telling him you have a gun? Obviously you weren't being so courteous to tell him you had two guns.

Really, you set yourself up for the problem that was of your own making. You extended some "courtesy" to the officer and got mad when he accepted your courtesy and acted on it. You extended the courtesy to help make him feel at ease, right? Or why else would you tell him?

carterbeauford
August 19, 2006, 05:35 PM
Maybe you should learn to obey the speed limit. Then this wouldn't be an issue.

Let he among us who has never done 10 over cast the first stone.

ilbob
August 19, 2006, 05:49 PM
I think it is pretty obvious to an outside observer that the profession of LE tends to attract the JBT/power-hungry/inferiority-complex group more so than other jobs. IMO, these jerks make up somewhere around 20% of LE. The rest are simply trying to serve their community. When stopped for a traffic violation, you don't know if you are going to get one of the JBT's or a true professional. However, it really doesn't matter, you still have to follow their directions to the point the law will allow. Just suck it up, hold your tongue, and don't make generalizations latter

I don't know what the percentage of jerks versus good guys is, but I think most are decent guys. I am not sure that serving the community is necessarily what they had in mind when they joined up. I suspect a fair number just wanted a reasonably secure job that had decent benefits and some chance of advancement.

I do not think you can be an effective LEO without actually wanting the job, for whatever reason. It is not different in that respect than any other job. You will do poorly if you hate your work. It will eventually eat you up.

There are enough cops with a chip on their shoulder that they give the rest of them a bad rap that while it may not be deserved is understandable.

steveracer
August 19, 2006, 05:55 PM
I race on a racetrack. Never on the street. I don't shoot guns in grocery stores any more than you do, so don't let the racer part of my name get you confused. My name isn't "cop killer", it's steveracer.
I told him to give him situational awareness. He'd know I have a CCW as soon as he ran my license. I was giving him a heads up.
Now, I'm sure he has another weapon besides the one I can clearly see on his hip. My pistol in the lockbox doesn't concern him, as the law doesn't say how many I can carry. All he knows is, I have a gun.
This doesn't mean he can have it.
I could have said, "I have 5 grand in cash in the vehicle" and this would not give him cause to take it.
I was just annoyed. I'm totally calm, being professional and polite, making things as easy for the officer as I can. This should tell him: this guy is ok.
If I was vomiting out of the window, he could yank me out and toss on the cuffs. I get the difference, why is it hard for others?

tyme
August 19, 2006, 06:05 PM
Just because a person qualified for a CHL three years ago does not mean he is not now engaged in criminal activity. It does not mean he is not dangerous. It does not mean he is not now a fugitive from justice. It simply means he was not convicted of a disqualifying offense when he applied for the CHL. That is all a CHL tells an officer, other than the fact you are likely armed.
So a fugitive from justice is going to announce that he's armed?

1. License plate comes back registered to a fugitive. Felony stop.
2. License plate comes back clean. Driver doesn't present CHL. Cop goes back to the squad car runs DL and takes action based on that.
3. License plate comes back clean. Driver presents CHL. Cop panics, disarms driver, then goes back to the squad car and runs the DL and CHL.

Notice a problem here? A bad guy with a CHL can avoid being disarmed immediately by not presenting the CHL. Furthermore, if the person in the car really is a bad guy, CHL or not, disarming him is not likely to be effective. There could easily be a sawed-off shotgun and two more handguns under the driver's seat.

Also, if the CHL holder is a fugitive, that certainly invalidates the CHL, so he would not be required to disclose because the CHL requirements no longer apply*. Without disclosure, how would the cop know to disarm the driver?

* Not to mention that if they did still apply, and given that the cop is about to go run the DL and find out that the driver is a fugitive, mandatory disclosure would probably be self-incrimination, and thus not legal.

TallPine
August 19, 2006, 07:06 PM
An honest citizen with no ill intentions will inform an officer, if the law so requires. A criminal will not, so only the good guys get treated poorly here.
That pretty much sums it up ... ;)

confed sailor
August 19, 2006, 08:40 PM
How many tickets? jeez, we get a 5 over on my boat, and the khaki comes a knockin. :fire:

on a lighter note, "do you have a chit for it?" :neener: sorry:D

steveracer
August 19, 2006, 08:48 PM
I don't involve my Navy command with traffic violations. I take leave the day before I go to court, for about two weeks. I figure, if it's a reckless driving ticket, and jailable, the worst I'll sit is a couple of days. Then, when I'm out, I go back to work, and cancel my leave. Nobody's the wiser, and it should stay that way. I'm a big boy, the Navy doesn't need to be part of my driving provided I don't hurt anyone.
I give this as advice to all servicemembers: DON'T GO TO COURT IN UNIFORM!! That will land you in way bigger trouble, trust me.
Anyway, the speeding thing is really not a big deal, and shouldn't be getting people in the trouble they have been in around here. I'm fighting the law about "reckless driving" here in VA as hard as my wallet allows. It's just disgusting to lock people up for driving 75 MPH on the freeway! (or 80 in a 65, whichever is lower. VA has great gun laws, but really bad traffic laws)
Steve.

confed sailor
August 19, 2006, 09:03 PM
Wow, i wish it worked like that for us. have fun man

Pro_Gun
August 19, 2006, 10:36 PM
I have never been pulled over while carrying. I carry almost everywhere I can legally. I try to stay no more than 5 miles over the posted limit most of the time.

I did respond to my daughters home when my son-in-law smaked her again at 3AM, so did my son. I was armed, so was my son. PA State Police responded. Later I showed him my carry permit. He just asked that I put it in the glove box since they had the matter under control.

No big deal for me. My nephews a cop in New Mexico. I know that cops get killed most in traffic stops. I understand the dis-arming if asked and will comply. Besides what choice does one have?

Byron Quick
August 20, 2006, 04:19 PM
So what "charges" would you have brought him up on if the officer did laser you with your gun??


Georgia Criminal Code
16-11-102.
A person is guilty of a misdemeanor when he intentionally and without legal justification points or aims a gun or pistol at another, whether the gun or pistol is loaded or unloaded.

Please note there is no statutory exemption for law enforcement officers.
Take out a warrant for this for starters. File a formal complaint with his chain of command alleging negligence and professional incompetence. Consult a criminal attorney for any possible violations of which I am ignorant just to present a smorgasbord if possible.

Start networking with the people I know just to get the jungle drums beating; couple of sheriffs, couple of state senators, several state representatives. a few assistant DA's, some politically active physicians, the odd attorney.

Depends on where he works whether he would actually be indicted for anything. In the state of Georgia, I could definitely get him on his superiors' "manure" list for opening this headache for them to begin with. I have no doubts that I could make him exquisitely aware of muzzle direction at all times in his future.

I've let being covered by the muzzles of my guns by officers ride in the past. They were clearing weapons that had already been personally cleared by me before leaving the range, so I wasn't really all that bothered...just got the heebie jeebies from the principle of the thing. Strangely enough, none of these officers asked if I was carrying on my person, I did not volunteer the information, and was not relieved of my loaded handgun on my hip during the stop.

Today I have little tolerance for wanton negligence in gun handling. Before the officer(s) took possession of any of my weapons I would remind them of safe muzzle control at all times. If covered, I would command them to cease their unsafe handling. I would also make a formal complaint to their agency, consult a practicing criminal attorney as to possible criminal charges, act upon that consultation by swearing out all applicable warrants, access what connections I have, and, generally, do my small bit to make the event truly memorable to the officer(s) involved.

GonHuntin
August 20, 2006, 06:32 PM
My summer carry gun is a Seacamp......it has a magazine safety that prevents the slide from being retracted when the magazine is out of the pistol......to completely clear it, you must first remove the magazine, empty the magazine, re-insert the empty magazine and rack the slide to clear the chamber......I'd be willing to bet that 95% of cops couldn't clear it without being shown how! Furthermore, I carry it in a pocket holster, so there is NO WAY a cop can safely disarm me while I sit in the drivers seat.....unless he asks me to remove the pistol from my pocket or gets in the car and sticks his hand in my pocket........now, if it's a good looking female cop, I might insist that she disarm me for her safety!:D

Routinely disarming people who are legally carrying and have notified the officer of that fact is just plain stupid........

glennv
August 20, 2006, 08:23 PM
The only time I would tell the cop I had a gun is if he asked me to get out of the car. Other than that it's never going to come up unless he asks.

I think some people just want someone to know they are carrying a gun. Foolish.

steveracer
August 20, 2006, 08:28 PM
As soon as he runs my license, he sees my ccw info, In the past, I;ve kept quiet about it, and gotten the third degree for not telling them.
You can call me foolish, or they can give me heat. I guess the way to win is not carry? Never going that route, sorry.

Byron Quick
August 20, 2006, 09:29 PM
steveracer,

Just another guy who thinks his state's laws are universal. He lives in a state where it's not going to come up on the DL check and where there is no duty to inform an officer during the traffic stop.

Hopefully, he'll never move to such a state. If he does, he'll apply for a carry permit, receive one, and not bother to research state law. After all, it will be the same as his original state and he already knows that, so why bother? Then he'll get stopped, not say anything, and then wonder why he's in trouble and everybody is picking on him.

Hopefully, he won't get stopped just after a brother officer has been shot twenty miles away by someone driving the same model and color of car as his when this happens. When the CCW comes over the radio and he hasn't said anything to the officer...sure hope it's a calm and collected officer.

BlkHawk73
August 20, 2006, 09:40 PM
Got no probelm with him asking and taking it back to his car with him. First, he doesn't know you from a hole in the wall so it's in his best interest to make the enviornment as safe as possible until he's sure of what is going on and exactly who you are. Secondly, since he's not 100% sure of who you are and and such, it's likely he'd maybe want to check to see that that particular gun isn't stolen.

Look at it from his POV...you detain someone that's clearly breaking a law. You have no idea who this person is but yu do know they have a loaded gun. Does you're awareness level go up? With the number of loonies out there these boys in blue gotta keep themselves safe.

DoubleTapDrew
August 21, 2006, 12:46 AM
Look at it from his POV...you detain someone that's clearly breaking a law. You have no idea who this person is but yu do know they have a loaded gun. Does you're awareness level go up? With the number of loonies out there these boys in blue gotta keep themselves safe.

I want the officers to be safe. They are doing the job that most of us would not want to do and have to deal with a lot of scum. The thing I have a problem with is now they are handling the CCW. It sounds like a lot of the "I must disarm you for my safety" cops are not into guns like we are and are now handling a loaded firearm that they aren't the least bit familiar with. That opens up the possibility for them to shoot themselves, me, my car, their car, a passerby, etc. This along with the fact they have now taken away your means of defending yourself. Yes it's probably never happened where you would need your weapon in that scenario to assist the officer or defend yourself but stranger things have happened.
CCW carriers have demonstrated they are safe, have jumped through the legal hoops and put themselves in FBI/Police databases. Your averagae Gary Gangbanger has a loaded pistol, will not show up as a weapon holder when the DL is run, and when asked if there are any weapons in the car will say "NO".
That's just my .02 YMMV

10 Ring Tao
August 21, 2006, 03:06 PM
I understand officer safety, but in many cases like this, it just doesn't make sense.

Why waste your time?

BlkHawk73
August 21, 2006, 06:49 PM
It sounds like a lot of the "I must disarm you for my safety" cops are not into guns like we are and are now handling a loaded firearm that they aren't the least bit familiar with.
Follow the gun safe handling rles and there's no worry about this. Chances are he'll be more cautious with an unfamiliar model than he would with his own. Safety is his primary concern at that point.

Panthera Tigris
August 21, 2006, 08:05 PM
For some strange reason, driving the speed limit seems to be an alien concept to a lot of people. I drive the speed limit and almost everyone zooms past me. Whenever I suggest driving the speed limit, people respond like I'm crazy.

Speed limits are there for a reason, not just because someone didn't have anything better to do that day.

Bill St. Clair
August 21, 2006, 10:02 PM
Speed limits are indeed there for a reason. They provide revenue for the state. But you can use them to your advantage. If a cop stops you for speeding when you weren't, you'll know that if he asks you to disarm, you should refuse, with extreme prejudice.

I drive three or four mph over the speed limit, using my cruise control when prudent to make it easier to maintain. I have only ever been stopped for speeding once, on a beautiful, empty stretch of recently repaved highway, where I was driving 70 in a 55 zone. And I've been driving 400 miles a week for the past nine years.

If you do the math, you'll discover that an extra 10 or 15 mph saves you very little time on trips shorter than three or four hours. Relax. What's the hurry?

MrZ
August 21, 2006, 11:53 PM
"Speed limits are indeed there for a reason. They provide revenue for the state."

After driving on other parts of the planet in places like europe, asia, and africa, one appreciates traffic laws, and places where traffic laws are respected, even if half-heartedly, and more importantly, enforced.

DoubleTapDrew
August 22, 2006, 12:22 AM
It sounds like a lot of the "I must disarm you for my safety" cops are not into guns like we are and are now handling a loaded firearm that they aren't the least bit familiar with.

Follow the gun safe handling rles and there's no worry about this. Chances are he'll be more cautious with an unfamiliar model than he would with his own. Safety is his primary concern at that point.

Yes I certainly hope he/she does. But my point is once you take it out of the holster you are endangering both of us. I'm not going to draw it, and the very fact that that someone volunteered the info that they are carrying should be enough.
Think of it like this: You tell someone you just met at a lunch meeting (who may, or may not be very familiar with guns) that you are carrying. He says it makes him nervous. He then proceeds to tell you he wants to hold onto it while you are hanging out, he draws it from your holster and proceeds to attempt to clear it. Sorry but that doesn't make me feel safe for either of us. Just leave the sucker in the holster.

carpettbaggerr
August 22, 2006, 12:53 AM
Speed limits are there for a reason, not just because someone didn't have anything better to do that day. Yes, but they were set quite some time ago. If 55 or 65 was safe in a Hudson Hornet, 70-80 mph is safe in today's cars.

RealGun
August 22, 2006, 07:47 AM
If a cop stops you for speeding when you weren't, you'll know that if he asks you to disarm, you should refuse, with extreme prejudice.

One shouldn't be a cowboy. The way to address the problem is to lobby for the police to stop requesting guns from those who volunteered that they were bodily armed. At the very least there should be a well known procedure for disarming as safely for both parties as possible in such a scenario. I still haven't read a suggestion from a real policeman about exactly what that procedure should be.

Method of carry is so variable, I would think the first order of business would be to get out of the vehicle in order to stand up, but that would not be while having a gun pointed at you. I would bet that after getting into outlining a procedure one would have to concede, you know what...let's just leave well enough alone. Never mind.

Bill St. Clair
August 22, 2006, 08:30 AM
One shouldn't be a cowboy.

Too late. What we need is 100,000 cowboys. People who aren't cowed by "authority", and are willing to defend their rights. With deadly force when necessary.

NineseveN
August 22, 2006, 10:18 AM
Too late. What we need is 100,000 cowboys. People who aren't cowed by "authority", and are willing to defend their rights. With deadly force when necessary.


Over being temporarily disarmed during a traffic stop? You’ve got to be kidding me. :rolleyes:

Look, I don't like the whole 'disarming someone for the officer's safety' routine either, I think it's silly, and thankfully I've never had to deal with that, but I fail to see what offense the officers are committing by temporarily disarming someone during a traffic stop that rises to the level that would dictate a lethal response.

It's no different than being cuffed and placed inside the back of a police car during a call to a fight or confrontation until the police sort the issue out, which is also legal. If you don't like the actions of one officer, call and complain to their supervisor, every time. Huffing and moaning on the internet and/or inciting violence over such a petty issue isn't going to get any traction.

There are some police actions that may rise to the level that dictates a lethal response, briefly disarming someone during a traffic stop just ain't one of them.

RealGun
August 22, 2006, 10:50 AM
I agree that the ninja response should not represent THR. The general sentiment is appalling to this subscriber.

Bill St. Clair
August 22, 2006, 10:51 AM
I said, "when necessary." I didn't define that, and I couldn't if I wanted to. As with many things, ya gotta be there.

By the way, the American Revolution was fought over confiscation of weapons. And rightly so. If a cop takes my gun at a traffic stop, how do I know it will be temporary?

RealGun
August 22, 2006, 11:04 AM
I might protest or suggest otherwise, but I am not going to shoot anyone or risk losing the showdown and getting shot myself. Tomorrow is another day. I might be insulted but am not being threatened, at least not yet. I also am not interested in going to jail or being executed over my hurt feelings.

Creeping Incrementalism
August 22, 2006, 11:26 AM
If you do the math, you'll discover that an extra 10 or 15 mph saves you very little time on trips shorter than three or four hours.
http://scd.mm-da.yimg.com/image/1634051636

80 MPH for 30 miles per day equals .375 hours per day. 65 MPH for 30 miles per day equals .462 hours per day, an advantage of .087 hours per day. Multiply that by 5 days a week, 52 weeks per year, by, say, 40 years, comes to 900 hours, or 37.5 24-hour periods. Considering that we are awake only 16 of very 24 hours, multiply 37.5 24-hour periods by (24/16) and you get 56.25 days. So speeding every day over your life adds to being like months of vacation.

Life is too short NOT to speed. And speed limits are set with the lowest common denominator in mind, so it isn't dangerous, unless you are incompitent, really tired, or driving a vehicle that really can't handle the speed.

tyme
August 22, 2006, 11:33 AM
At the very least there should be a well known procedure for disarming as safely for both parties as possible in such a scenario.
Either the driver has to hand over the gun (very unsafe for the officer if the driver intends any harm), or the cop had to reach for the gun (also very unsafe for the officer of the driver intends any harm).

There is no assurance that that's the only gun accessible to the driver.

Disarming drivers who announce they're armed is a dangerous and unwise exercise in paranoia.

Unless there's cause to pull the driver out and search him face-down on the pavement, any guns present should be left alone. CCWers will be happier. Police will generate more revenue with their speeding tax, because they'll spend less time on average on each stop.

Life is too short NOT to speed. And speed limits are set with the lowest common denominator in mind, so it isn't dangerous, unless you are incompitent, really tired, or driving a vehicle that really can't handle the speed.
In which case you should stay in the right lane and let people with decent cars, decent tires, and decent awareness use the left lane(s).

I am also totally sick of cops violating traffic laws that they expect others to follow. Almost every time I see a cop car, it's doing something wrong. Either it's speeding, failing to signal lane changes, or (just recently) going the WRONG way down a row of cars in a parking lot. In the rare case the cop car isn't doing anything wrong, it's going exactly the speed limit, in the middle lane, backing up traffic and generally causing everyone's stress level to go through the roof.

Speeding isn't half as dangerous as closely-packed traffic, and GUESS WHAT HAPPENS when a cop car decides to set a "good" example? That's right... closely packed cars for at least a quarter of a mile.

Ezekiel
August 22, 2006, 11:46 AM
I agree that the ninja response should not represent THR. The general sentiment is appalling to this subscriber.

"Agreed."

Yet it is so widespread on this forum.

I attribute such to Gun Mentality(tm). :fire:

RealGun
August 22, 2006, 11:47 AM
Life is too short NOT to speed. And speed limits are set with the lowest common denominator in mind, so it isn't dangerous, unless you are incompitent, really tired, or driving a vehicle that really can't handle the speed.

There is no right to drive as fast you want to, and speeding can produce very unfortunate consequences if faster than conditions and the vehicle really allow safely. Hopefully, an attitude adjustment will occur before harming others, losing your driver's license, or even losing your license to carry legally.

Creeping Incrementalism
August 22, 2006, 12:31 PM
There is no right to drive as fast you want to, and speeding can produce very unfortunate consequences if faster than conditions and the vehicle really allow safely. Hopefully, an attitude adjustment will occur before harming others, losing your driver's license, or even losing your license to carry legally.
License to legally carry? Ha! Do you know where I live?

By the way, I'm not slowing down, because it will only get me run over by the other millions of Californians who are also speeding. (I don't speed to the point it really is unsafe, I'm only saying it is not unsafe to regularly go 75-80 in a 65 on a freeway in good conditions.)

BigO01
August 22, 2006, 12:56 PM
I wonder if this guy disarms fellow LEO's when he stops them ?

Cops do commit crimes too ya know .

JohnBT
August 22, 2006, 01:10 PM
"I said, "when necessary." I didn't define that, and I couldn't if I wanted to."

Huh? Then why bring it up? Big talk, but meaningless?

John

Art Eatman
August 22, 2006, 09:22 PM
Wandering about in the justification for speed, speed and more speed? And arguing over it?

Naw...

Art

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