Dealing with posted stores - or "hindsight is 20-20"


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Green Lantern
August 18, 2006, 06:22 PM
...as in, DARN I wish I would have thought of this before when communicating with 'policy makers' in business that do not want CCWers on their property:

"Would you be willing to live in a home that had a big "GUN FREE ZONE!" sign on the front yard? Would you feel safe? No?

Well, now you know one of the most important reasons I will spend no time and thus no money at your establishment. And will encourage all my loved ones to do the same, unless your change your policy!"

Then again my record is one failure and two "no-responses," it may be time to ring the bell of liberty again... :D

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Art Eatman
August 19, 2006, 11:33 PM
If you don't have the software to make your own, have some business cards printed with those thoughts on them. When you find a "signed store", give a card to the owner/manager...

Art

Fred Fuller
August 20, 2006, 10:51 AM
Here's what one group is doing:

https://www.ohioccw.org/catalog/images/no_guns_cards.gif

https://www.ohioccw.org/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=111

hoji
August 20, 2006, 02:42 PM
But just remember it is OK to shop at gun stores and gun shows that have the same "no CHL{CCW}" policy.:rolleyes:

AF_INT1N0
August 20, 2006, 03:05 PM
Hoji-

The gun store I used to frequent didn't have those signs. (I say used too because I was PCSed to Hellifornia)

Maybe you go to the wrong stores.

Lone_Gunman
August 20, 2006, 03:27 PM
But just remember it is OK to shop at gun stores and gun shows that have the same "no CHL{CCW}" policy.

In Georgia, you can't carry at a gunshow even if you have a license. Its the law.

learn2shoot
August 20, 2006, 03:52 PM
If the sign is big and obvious, I will go somewhwere else. If the sign in in tiny print, I don't read it as I enter so I would not know it is posted.

Once I got my order together and was rung up, before noticing. Then I saw the signs were over every register. I explained that I realized I was not welcome and left over $200 worth of merchandise on the counter and left without paying.

psychophipps
August 20, 2006, 04:08 PM
And most gun stores have a "No loaded firearms" sign. Otherwise, it makes dropping off your firearms for the gunsmith, that many gun shops do referals for, a bit difficult?

Mark(psycho)Phipps( HAHAHA! )

hoji
August 20, 2006, 04:08 PM
"If the sign is big and obvious, I will go somewhwere else. If the sign in in tiny print, I don't read it as I enter so I would not know it is posted.

Once I got my order together and was rung up, before noticing. Then I saw the signs were over every register. I explained that I realized I was not welcome and left over $200 worth of merchandise on the counter and left without paying."

That is funny. I believe I will do that when I go and buy a new truck in a couple of weeks.
Just let them get everything ready to sign, and go "Oh, I'm sorry, I did not realize that you did not want my buisness" and leave with the papers on the salesman's desk.
{ of course this would be at a dealership that had signs up that do not conform to state law}

Green Lantern
August 20, 2006, 09:31 PM
Here's a link to a question I posted earlier, that as of yet has no answer:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=2631531#post2631531

The short version is, since TN law CLEARLY states that "no guns" signs have to be large enough to be easily seen, posted at every public entrance, and be worded in a way that reference the law's "number" and penalty for violating it...

If a store's sign does not meet all those requrements (or ANY of them at the place I'm thinking of!) - then is it true you can't be charged with felony CCW if you carry in a place like that? Does the sign have to meet the law's requirements to have "legal weight?"

I say YES, because otherwise....why the heck wouldn't the TN legislature have just saved some ink and done it the NC way: "It's illegal to carry in a place where the owner has posted a sign probibiting carry." PERIOD.

(I'm a sad man...this is not about me wanting to carry in a certian place...but about getting the facts I need to destroy someone in an argument we're having on the subject! ;) )

And hoji...to me, posted is posted. I would no more shop in a posted gun store than, say, a posted mall. (unless it was just something asking customers to bring in guns for work or trade UNLOADED...!)

BlkHawk73
August 20, 2006, 09:34 PM
sounds like you're wanting legal knowledge and or legal advice. just a guess but your best bet should anything ever come of it would be with a lawyer in that stae. too many armchair legal experts outside of that profession.

Byron Quick
August 20, 2006, 09:45 PM
In Georgia, you can't carry at a gunshow even if you have a license. Its the law.

Lone Gunman,

Do you have the Title, Chapter, and number of that law? Or are you thinking of the public gathering prohibition? The attorney general has issued a ruling that a shopping mall is not a public gathering. I doubt he'd consider a gun show to be a public gathering, either.

I've read the Georgia code relating to carrying concealed weapons several times. Just this afternoon, in fact, most recently. I've never seen a prohibition against carry in gun shows.

It could very well be that gun show promoters and exhibitors are saying it is. But I know many firearms dealers who interpret federal law differently than the ATF does. It wouldn't surprise me to find the gun show people interpreting Georgia law differently than the state attorney general.

lacoochee
August 21, 2006, 12:10 AM
"No gun" signs have no legal weight here unless you asked specifically to leave by the owner of the business you can carry all day. You can carry in Restaurants as long as you stay out of the bar area (if it has one) otherwise feel free to eat. The last two places state parks and national forests, that I want to carry will be completely legal in October. If for some reason you violate one of the "forbidden" places, it's a second degree misdemeanor. The Brady people gave us an F+ and 3 miles down the interstate from my exit there is a sign reminding visitors to our great state that we can use deadly force put up by the Brady morons (maybe they aren't so bad after all) ;) .

It might not be perfect but it's definitely better than a lot of places

bogie
August 21, 2006, 10:03 AM
It's gotten to where I just ask them if they think that some of their customers are criminals. I usually get some sort of response. Then I tell 'em that I'm not, and I've got a government issued card that says that I'm not. Then I show 'em. Then I tell 'em how much I was gonna spend, and how much I tend to buy yearly, and then I turn around and walk out.

Malum Prohibitum
August 21, 2006, 12:52 PM
Do you have the Title, Chapter, and number of that law? Or are you thinking of the public gathering prohibition? The attorney general has issued a ruling that a shopping mall is not a public gathering. I doubt he'd consider a gun show to be a public gathering, either.

Byron,

These are almost always in a publicly owned or operated building, so the public gathering statute would apply by its own terms. Even if it is not, I am unaware of any show that allows carry (the promoters, I mean).

Here is a rather interesting (even if wrong) viewpoint from the police officers at the entryway to one such show:
http://www.georgiapacking.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=678

Green Lantern
August 21, 2006, 10:45 PM
Oh yeah...when I need stamps, I'll drive across town and disarm to go in the post office instead of going a few doors up and disarming to go into a posted grocery store....

Lone_Gunman
August 21, 2006, 10:58 PM
Byron, I was thinking of the public gathering rule in Georgia. Eastman posts a big sign declaring that carrying at his gunshow is illegal based on the public gathering rule.

But you know, you may be right. This may just be Eastman trying to keep loaded guns out of his show. I have read a letter for the Attorney General of the State of Georgia which said that movie theaters are specifically not public gatherings because they charge admission and are private venues. How would a gun show be different?

There was a case at an Eastman show a couple of years ago when a small child was accidentally shot in the head and killed by an exhibitor (not just an attendee) with a loaded gun. Maybe Eastman is just gun shy now.

Anyway, whether a gun show is a public gathering or not, I believe Eastman is legally able to prohibit firearms at his shows if he wants to as a condition of admission, just as you could prohibit firearms in your home. If someone violates his request, they could be charged with trespassing, couldnt they?

Malum Prohibitum
August 22, 2006, 02:50 PM
Lone Gunman, I want to steal your signature line and post it in the Off Topic forum over here. www.georgiapacking.org

Are you sure it is accurate?

Lone_Gunman
August 22, 2006, 03:30 PM
Yes, Bush really said that!

Here is a link to the article:
http://www.chron.com/CDA/archives/archive.mpl?id=1999_3157589

You have to register to read it on the Houston Chronicle website, but here is the text of the article (I added the bold type for emphasis):

Bush says White House lax in enforcing gun laws

By R.G. RATCLIFFE
Staff

OKLAHOMA CITY - Responding to the shooting at a suburban Los Angeles Jewish community center, Republican presidential candidate George W. Bush accused the Clinton administration Wednesday of lax enforcement of the nation's gun laws.

"This current administration has not done a good job of prosecuting gun laws," Bush said. "In my judgment, if we can keep guns out of the hands of people who shouldn't have them and prosecute people who sell guns illegally, we will have done society a great service."

Bush noted that the accused Los Angeles shooter had been convicted of a felony, but had not turned himself in to serve his sentence.

"If he had been brought to justice in a firm way, he wouldn't have been where he was," Bush said.

However, Bush said he was not specifically blaming either President Clinton or Vice President Al Gore for allowing Tuesday's shooting to occur.

"Absolutely not. You can't blame any single person for the acts of a madman, acts of people who have evil in their hearts," Bush said.

As he did after the high school shootings in Colorado and Georgia, Bush said there is no need for massive new gun control laws. But he said he favors instant background checks to make sure gun buyers are legally eligible to own a gun.

"It's important to make sure that people who should not have guns don't have guns; that is, the young (and) felons," Bush said.

The Texas governor also said he is for maintaining bans on assault weapons.

"It makes no sense for assault weapons to be around our society," Bush said.

Congress banned the sale of assault weapons in 1994.

Bush was in Oklahoma City Wednesday for a fund-raiser at the National Cowboy Hall of Fame and to tour by Big Bass, Big Bucks Charities youth fishing program at Crystal Lake.

While at Crystal Lake, Bush proposed an overhaul of the long-standing, successful Head Start preschool program.

"One of the initiatives of my education initiative is going to be to totally rehaul and revamp the Head Start program, changing it from a program where children are collected just to sit around to a program that begins the education process so every child has a chance to succeed," Bush said.

He said he wants to use Head Start to make certain children receive the basics in reading and math. But Bush offered no specifics on how that would be accomplished.

Bush praised the Crystal Lake project as an example of mentoring programs in which local citizens join with government to provide a good foundation for children. He said cases such as this year's Littleton, Colo., high school shootings might be avoided with such programs.

"It's going to take more than man-made law to help these kids who have gone astray. That's why faith-based programs are important," Bush said.

Bush described the Crystal Lake program as one that receives state help, "some federal help, a lot of private help to change people's lives."

The $3 million project actually receives three-fourths of its money from the federal government.

Tim Hartman, a professional fisherman who is president of the charity, said most of the funding comes from a tax on sporting equipment. He said the charity runs the lake for Oklahoma City government and teaches children of all socio-economic groups about fishing and the outdoors.

Wastemore
August 22, 2006, 04:39 PM
Please, define "assault weapon"...

Derby FALs
August 22, 2006, 04:49 PM
Oh yeah...when I need stamps, I'll drive across town and disarm to go in the post office instead of going a few doors up and disarming to go into a posted grocery store....

Why do so many people think it is illegal to CCW in a PO? :what:

Lone_Gunman
August 22, 2006, 05:24 PM
Please, define "assault weapon"...

To Bush and other gun grabbers, assault weapon basically translates into "any scary looking gun".

SLCDave
August 22, 2006, 05:30 PM
Why do so many people think it is illegal to CCW in a PO?

Because it's posted? Just a wild guess on my part.

espanola
August 22, 2006, 05:55 PM
Why do so many people think it is illegal to CCW in a PO?

Because it's a federal building?

mpmarty
August 22, 2006, 06:13 PM
POSTED IN THE POST OFFICE HUH? Did you ever read the whole thing and request that the postal employee supply the subsection "C" that is referred to wherein the exception(s) to the rule include the licensed carrying of a firearm by civilians with CCW permits issued in the state in which the post office is located?

Derby FALs
August 22, 2006, 06:14 PM
POSTED IN THE POST OFFICE HUH? Did you ever read the whole thing and request that the postal employee supply the subsection "C" that is referred to wherein the exception(s) to the rule include the licensed carrying of a firearm by civilians with CCW permits issued in the state in which the post office is located?

Bingo!

ID_shooting
August 22, 2006, 06:23 PM
Not challenging you, but do you the code to which they refer? it has to be on the net in some .gov site

Derby FALs
August 22, 2006, 07:13 PM
http://www.thegunzone.com/rkba/rtc-usps.html

ID_shooting
August 22, 2006, 09:43 PM
Ummmm, yaaaaa.

I love the disclaimer at the bottom of the page. While I have no case where anyone has been convicted who merely had a permit and did not violate any other statute, I for one am NOT going to be the test case.

Why dont you run on down to the post office, ask to see the postmaster and inform him you are carrying a CCW. Let us know how Ft leavenworth was on the inside.

Green Lantern
August 22, 2006, 10:02 PM
O-tay....

There are 2 possible PO's I would go to. The "nice" one in town, and a little dinky one out in the sticks on the way home.

The one in town is, well, nice. Better hours, more people, and vending machines because I have odd hours and can't make time to go there and actually buy stamps from someone. And it is NOT posted, whereas the "little dinky one" IS posted. But since "little dinky PO" has really lousy hours since it's staffed by one person, I hardly ever go there.

Bottom line is, I may buy stamps once every 2 months, and I tend to just get them alone. So I'm disarmed for maybe 2 minutes max.

Bi-Lo does not HAVE to post, so sod 'em. The post office I visit is not posted, but until I do more research, better safe than sorry....!

Derby FALs
August 22, 2006, 10:53 PM
Ummmm, yaaaaa.

I love the disclaimer at the bottom of the page. While I have no case where anyone has been convicted who merely had a permit and did not violate any other statute, I for one am NOT going to be the test case.

Why dont you run on down to the post office, ask to see the postmaster and inform him you are carrying a CCW. Let us know how Ft leavenworth was on the inside.

My is agreeable. Our last one also agreed. You should ask yours.

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