[MT GUNNY]

I dont see why you would disrupt comfort of your pistol for laser grips?

My 1911 has the ajustable inernal laser sight installed + I still have
the comfort of my hogue rubber wrapparound grips + I dont have any
problems with ambi saftey catch

Upon drawing I can have the laser on and saftey off before sight picture
and not have to concintrate on sqeazing the grip to maintain active laser.

Please vote and tell me what ya think

You realy dont have a choice when it comes to revolvers!

Asthetics are not my cup of tea and when it comes to carry, its just one more bulge to cover.
I want the pros an cons!

[steelhead]

I trust the CT grips and that is what I use but I have nothing against Lasermax. I've never felt that the grips were uncomfortable but that is purely subjective. Lasermax is great for semi's but what about a revolver?

Not quite sure what you are trying to accomplish with this poll. The issues you have with the CT grips have more to do with muscle memory and training than any real product issue.

[wally]

Laser Max internal had no adjustment to match the laser dot to POI.

Showstopper for me. CTC lasergrips have held zero well on hard recoiling Kimber Ultra carry .45ACP 230 gr and very hard recoiling S&W SC360 "Scandium" .357 mag 158 gr.

--wally.

[Coronach]

I've used both. I have the Lasermax on my G20 and I've fiddled with a friend's Lasergripped J-frame. I think that the Crimson Trace system is slightly better in almost every way, but the differences are really small. Adjustable POA is nice, but lack of it is not a showstopper for a combat gun. Instant on for the CT is likewise nice, but if you train to hit the Lasermax's on button it is no big deal.

Mike

[progunner1957]

Laser Max internal had no adjustment to match the laser dot to POI.

Showstopper for me. Me, too. Not beign able to zero POI with POA is almost as bad as having no sights on your defensive handgun...:eek:

[KC&97TA]

I have 2 pairs of Crimson Trace, one on my 92FS and one on my M9, (thank you tax payers) - they're combat proven, have both of them zero'd at 12 yards, I love them, just have to turn them off before putting in holster and I've learned to switch them on with my off-hand ring finger.

I've seen 4 of the internal guide rod lasers break over the last 3 years all on the local public range, 2 - 1911's and 2 - Glocks. I don't like that idea very much. Keep in mind I've spent 21 months of the last 42 months deployed, so I don't see that as good odds.

Keep the laser on the outside and let the gun function the way it was designed.

[jaydubya]

*

[jaydubya]

I have no experience with LaserMax. I have Crimson Trace grips on both my Browning Hipower and my S&W 637 snubby. I love them, though I make a point of training with them turned off as well as on.

For Lucas Flesher -- In both cases, the Crimson Trace grip is an improvement over the stock ones.

For KC&97TA -- Why do you turn your Crimson Trace grips off before holstering? The instruction booklet specifically states that nothing is gained by doing this in battery life, so I just leave them on. Good luck on your next do in the Sand Box (Better luck: don't). I have six stars on my Vietnam Service Ribbon, gathered over ten years, so it can be done.
Cordially, Jack

[longeyes]

I have Crimson Trace laser grips on my Colt Sistema. So far so good. The grips themselves, by the way, are quite comfortable.

I don't trust the internal type to stand up to the abuse, frankly, or to hold zero, and I don't like mucking with the gun's essential parts if I don't have to.

[possum]

I prefer the lasermax internal laser myself. i have used the crimson trace on military issue m9's and a few .357 mags that my dad has. they are alright but they add girth to most pistols, some it is ok, but some are already to big for my hand like the m9's and the added grip dosen't help that out at all. I used a lazerlyte qd for a while on my xd. i liked it, but ever since i went on leave and shot dad's glock 19 with the internal lasermax, i was hooked. The bonuses are that any holster that you already have will still work, adds hardly any weight if any, and dosen't add any size to the grip. plus the laser max pulsates, it flashes on target, for easier pick up. That is a pretty cool feature that i never thought about before. Plus they are guaranteed to be within 2" i believe it is, as soon as you drop it in. On that note you would think that it would be hard to put in, but after having it explained to me it sounds and looks pretty easy. If i get another laser sight it will be a lasermax all the way!

[mike4guns]

kc&87ta - leave em on. thats the point of instant on. your batt's will be ok just the same. don't deny yourself the luxury of availability. but whatever you like... lasermax's broke in front of me twice or did'nt work for some reason or another. i did'nt ask why ,just seen fiddling frustration of fellow ranger. can't adjust lasermax for windage and distance? don't want them. ctc seem to be the best. i have an older set that are on a m66-2. love em.they hold up great. just bought a set for another revolver and i make it a point to practice without them. nice feel , very grippy. sometimes they hike my shirt up from grippy rubber. not a huge prob though. i am constantly consious of my rig every second anywayso adjustments come natural. no ctc's on any auto's yet. can't become to dependant.:D

[3 gun]

Someone did some digging with the search function. Still valid today. I prefer CT grips today for the same reasons I did when this was a new post. CT grips DO NOT replace critical parts of my firearm. If my CT grips fail my pistol will still work just like I had never added a laser. I also find the CT units to be a step up from the standard grips on all three of the pistols I have CT lasers on.

Replacing a slide stop, guide rod and/or any other internal part means if the laser fails it could take my pistol down the same path. Not a path I want to go down.

I won't say I would not own/use an internal unit. LaserMax has gone a long way in improving their products. It's just even with the CT grips disadvantages they are still a better choice for me.

Truth is anything has its pluses and minuses. Laser units are not any different.

[BigGunsMoreFun]

One of the first things I learned when I started shooting handguns is to become proficient at point and shoot. I think laser sights of any kind are a waste of time and money.

They also make a lazy shooter out of you that can't hit anything without the laser sight. You become dependent on them. What happens when they fail and you have not been practicing your point and shoot technique?

Surprise :what: the bad guy will get a couple of rounds into you while you get a couple of rounds into the wall.

I've never liked laser sights, laser grips or any of that malarkey.

My 2 cents.

Molon Labe,
Joe
:scrutiny:

[dundonrl]

I have CT lasergrips on my Springfield Armory 1911-A1.. spendy but for a self defense weapon, they are very nice. they are sighted in for about 15 yards, and that's more than enough for what I use it for..

[wally]

They also make a lazy shooter out of you that can't hit anything without the laser sight. You become dependent on them. What happens when they fail and you have not been practicing your point and shoot technique?


Having the laser grips won't stop you from practicing unsighted point shooting. In fact outdoors at the range the laser dot varies from very hard to see to just about impossible on a bright sunny day.

I just wish they were cheaper I'd have them on all my guns, they are good grips and the laser is great for dry fire practice and could be a life saver in some scenarios -- but certainly not something to be dependent on.

If the LaserMax POA/POI is "close enough" for you great, but if not then non adjustable means you are SOL unless you can get a refund. I've put the CTC lasergrips on my Kimber Ultra Carry and three J-frames (My SC-360, wife's Taurus, and a Taurus .22 subbie for practice) all needed adjustment to make me happy with POA/POI and have held zero very well.

--wally.

[DerbyDale]

Lasers can be a great tool/aid for any carry pistol. Remember you are legally responsible for all rounds you fire from your gun. If I was ever unfortunate to be caught in the next mall or store shooting. I would want the feedback (laser dot) that I was indeed on target. I want to do everything I can to minimize the chances of hitting an innocent bystander. At the range I still shoot mostly with the sights, and still practice point shooting. I only shoot a mag or two with the laser to test the alignment.

I went with the Crimson Trace grips, since I didn't want to replace any critical component to the function of the firearm. Also how many rounds are the lasermax rods good for? I can go though a few hundred rounds per week at the range. The thought of replacing the $$ laser guide rod from use did not appeal to me.

[cornman]

I like the laser idea mainly because it seems like a good reminder to an intruder to not do something stupid. Anything that helps avoid someone getting hurt is a good idea imo.

[jibjab]

It seems to me that the Crimson Trace grip laser could only be zeroed in for one distance because the laser and barrel are not in line :confused:

[Coronach]

They also make a lazy shooter out of you that can't hit anything without the laser sight. You become dependent on them. What happens when they fail and you have not been practicing your point and shoot technique?This only happens if you're into blaming your equipment for YOUR failure to train. Don't blame the tool for your stupidity. The only people who seem to view laser sights as a replacement for conventional sights are people who have decided that they don't like laser sights, usually a priori.

Mike

[Coronach]

It seems to me that the Crimson Trace grip laser could only be zeroed in for one distance because the laser and barrel are not in lineOK. So, let's assume that your barrel/bullet flight path and the beam of the laser are perfectly parallel. This means your point of impact and your point of aim will be about 1/2" off, for the entire range of the firearm.

Whoopty freakin doo. This isn't Bulleseye shooting, it's combat shooting. The bullet's trajectory up and down will vary by a whole heck of a lot more than that, and this shift in POI vs POA will affect any type of sight you put on the gun anyway.

For a combat handgun, you pick a moderate distance, adjust so that POI and POA coincide, and everything within the practical useful range of the gun will be close enough to dead on that it will not matter.

Mike

[jibjab]

For a combat handgun, you pick a moderate distance, adjust so that POI and POA coincide, and everything within the practical useful range of the gun will be close enough to dead on that it will not matter.

Well if precise shot placement is not required I guess this would do. The Crimson grip has a parallax issue, but I do see the upside to this sighting system, please don't get me wrong.

[R&J]

As with many things, I have to qualify this...

With Glock pistols--and I do favor Glock pistols--I much prefer the internal LaserMax.

I don't care for the Crimson Trace Grips on Glock pistols. The impact on the gun's ergonomics is unacceptable to me. They are dandy on 1911s and revolvers, but not Glocks.

We have LaserMax installed in G19 & G21, and are very pleased with them. The lasers have proven themselves to be accurate and durable over thousands of rounds, with zero impact to gun ergonomics.

Rounds appear just above the pulsing dot, out to the back of our indoor range. The LaserMax is close to the bore axis, so collimation is no issue. Yes, I can routinely core a bull's-eye with either G19 or G21, using the Lasermax. A one-handed grip works well with the G19.

It's a fallacy that a laser makes you a lazy shooter, any more than a car makes you a fat slob, or a calculator makes you a mindless idiot. Give yourselves a little credit, and exercise a little discipline! Geez! :rolleyes:

Once you learn trigger technique, the laser works so well, that practice with it inside fifty feet is boring... The joy of shooting is always achievement at traditional marksmanship! But that laser is a comfort, if you're compromised somehow, or not at your best. :uhoh:

Battery life, with LaserMax, has been excellent. Only recently did I change out batteries in Judy's G19, from a 02/2006 purchase; it worked but was getting dim. My G21 is just now getting dim, from an 11/2005 purchase.

I see you've boiled it down to the two approaches for Laser Collimation.

Sweet Spot: Dial in a distance where bullet and laser converge. Inside or outside that Sweet Spot, you'll be off. How much off depends on how far the laser is mounted from the bore axis--something that is pronounced in many of the laser/light combos.

Offset or Parallel Beam: With the laser mounted close to the bore axis, as with LaserMax, the offset of the laser from the bullet path is a known value, which is either ignored, or compensated for. In other words, the beam runs parallel to the bullet path, out to practical pistol ranges.

If you look at Crimson Trace's and LaserMax's ads, they don't talk about precision sniper fire; they talk about practical self-defense. These devices are plenty accurate enough for that!

Like it or not, lasers and weapon lights are getting a strong thumbs-up from police and military personnel, trained in their use. Properly applied, they are an asset to a weapon platform.

Resist if you want, but time will catch up with you. :banghead: Weapon lights and lasers are here to stay! ;)

--Ray

[jibjab]

Which Crimson Trace for my 1911, dual side or front activation ?

[Kind of Blued]

I love my Crimson Trace grips.

They're on a Bi-Tone Sig P226 in .40 that I bought used.

The grips themselves, laser or not, are much nicer than the stock Sig grips, so that's a plus.

I realized one day that if I was being attacked by a 300lb. murderer at night, regardless of training, I think I would find that I focus on the 300lb. murderer guy and not my front sight. It's human nature.

Also, one more deterent should I have to draw my weapon. A laser-sighted handgun is one of the few situations where Hollywood has helped our cause (staying alive, via firearms if necessary). The bad guy knows what the red dot on his chest means.

[BigGunsMoreFun]

I train plenty and gaurantee I can hit anything without a Laser sight that you can hit with a Laser sight.

Nice job here. We have moderators that can call people names but if we do it to each other then we get banned for it.

I have used Laser sights and I don't like them. I was merely stating an opinion and did not attack anyone. Does that make me stupid Mike?

I think Moderators might try practicing what they preach. If you can call me stupid why can't we call each other stupid? What happened to the rule of attack the issue not the person?

What say you practice what you preach? Hmm... Coronach???

Molon Labe,
Joe
:scrutiny:

[Coronach]

Actually, I wasn't directing that "your stupidity" at you in particular, even though I was quoting you. I was taking the position that IF a person gets laser grips and proceeds to train only with the laser grip, that person is doing something stupid. That's a general "you" as opposed to a specific You, though I understand why that didn't come through.

However, you (specifically), seemed to be advocating that if you (or "one") were to have a laser sight on a gun, it would make you (or "that person") lazy and they would only practice with the laser sight, or, at least, not practice enough with the conventional sights. That would be a stupid act (or omission, actually), and I think we would agree on that. However, the presence of laser sights did not "force" you (or whomever) to not practice, you (or whomever) just decided to do it out of...I dunno...laziness? Stupidity? A misplaced faith in technology? Ennui?

I've just heard entirely too many people state that "XYZ makes you lazy", be it red dot sights, huge scopes, laser sights, large capacity magazines, whatever. Nothing makes anyone not practice. Just because you bolt a gizmo on your gun doesn't make your iron sights vanish. If a person fails to practice with the iron sights, it's because they don't want to practice with the iron sights. Period.

Mike

[theotherwaldo]

I like my Lasermax-equipped Glock 27.

The only time I had to drop the hammer on a person was in a situation where the guy was strongly back-lit, I was in darkness, he had a butcher knife, I had a '58 Remington, he couldn't see me, and I couldn't see the sights. And I don't think that I could have seen any regular kind of night sights, either.

I got the job done, but I think I would have preferred a Lasermax

[lanternlad1]

I swear by lasers, and so does my wife, who actually had to use one on the attempted carjacker she fended off with her snubby that had laser grips on them. It was the laser that scared him away without firing a shot. That's real world experience for me. Unless you are a soldier in the field, a firearms instructor, or someone who spends an inordinate amount of time on the range, odds are you won't build up enough muscle memory through your training to be able to hit your target when SHTF. Lasers allow for regular joes like myself to be as deadly as necessary if needed, or not if the BG wises up and runs away. I put laser grips on every handgun I own.

[BigGunsMoreFun]

Coronach (Mike),

Thank you for taking the time to explain your post from earlier in this thread about what I mistakenly took as an insult to me. I originally misunderstood what you were saying. Now I see.

Also, please rest assured that I was not in anyway trying to insult people that use Laser grips, sights etc. I guess I could have worded my post better and said something to the effect of making sure that you don't allow the Laser sights to make a lazy shooter out of a person and to maintain all types of practice. You never know what you will need when the time comes.

As a matter of fact, my wife has a little .38 Special with Crimson Trace Laser grips on it. She's pretty good with it and I'm not so good with it because I find the Laser a little distracting. Now you got me to thinking that maybe I should practice with her gun too in case it is the only thing available when some crackhead comes through my window at night.

It's nice how us people can straighten out a misunderstanding with a few well thought out words huh? I wonder why the antis can't do that. If this discussion had taken place on one of the anti sites between two antis, the threats and the spittle would be flying.

That is one thing I find pretty common place about "People of the Gun". We are pretty much all Gentlemen and Gentlewomen. Darn good folks here at THR.

Have a nice day.

Molon Labe,
Joe
:)

[R&J]

jibjab said, in part, "Which Crimson Trace for my 1911, dual side or front activation?"

*****

You can see both types here:

http://www.midwayusa.com/esearch.exe/search?search_keywords=Crimson+Trace&category_selector=all_products

As always, I recommend that you shop price!

--Ray

[jibjab]

Thanks R&J, I was beginning to think everyone had put me on their ignore list :)

[esq_stu]

I'm not going to pass judgment on lasers.

I just don't want non-standard non-factory critical parts like a recoil spring and guide inside my personal defense weapon. Period.

So it's gonna have to be outside my gun if at all.

[1911 guy]

I actually like the idea of a laser, but both have serious drawbacks, in my opinion and experience. Here's why.

WARNING--PERSONAL OPINION TO FOLLOW:

Lasermax: I'm will add NOTHING to the innards of a fighting gun. Period, full stop. If I wanted to invite Mr. Murphy to the fight, I'd carry a cap gun.

Crimson Trace: Great idea, but the grips suck. They hang up on my clothes and print. If they made a set that were smooth and non-rubbery, I'd buy a set yesterday. As it stands, they fall into the category of "nice, but..."

[M2 Carbine]

jibjab
It seems to me that the Crimson Trace grip laser could only be zeroed in for one distance because the laser and barrel are not in line

WAY TOO MUCH is made about the laser being offset from the barrel.

Does it really make any difference if your bullet strike is an inch or two off from the laser dot?

Sighting in the laser at 50 feet will put the bullet within about an inch of the laser dot from up close to way further than most people are likely to shoot.

For instance I sight my lasers in at 25 yards because my possible HD shooting could be as much as 40+ yards.
By the time I shot this 40 yard target it was so dark the target was just a blur but it was still easy to empty the magazine into COM.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v135/Bell406_206B/CT7to40yards.jpg

[M2 Carbine]

jibjab said, in part, "Which Crimson Trace for my 1911, dual side or front activation?"

I have both.
Friends and I like the front activation the best.

My Kimber Ultra Covert has the front switch. For me it allows faster shooting than the side switch and the side switch requires a conscious effort to press the switch.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v135/Bell406_206B/KimberCovertlaser.jpg

[jibjab]

Thanks M2,
You have answered my questions quite well :)

[R&J]

1) "I just don't want non-standard non-factory critical parts like a recoil spring and guide inside my personal defense weapon. Period."

2) "I'm [sic] will add NOTHING to the innards of a fighting gun. Period, full stop. If I wanted to invite Mr. Murphy to the fight, I'd carry a cap gun."

3) "Also how many rounds are the lasermax rods good for? I can go though a few hundred rounds per week at the range. The thought of replacing the $$ laser guide rod from use did not appeal to me."

4) "If the LaserMax POA/POI is "close enough" for you great, but if not then non adjustable means you are SOL unless you can get a refund."

5) "Me, too. Not beign [sic] able to zero POI with POA is almost as bad as having no sights on your defensive handgun..."

*****

Most of my experience with handguns and lasers is limited to Glocks 17, 19 & 21, and LaserMax internal lasers. That said, my replies to the above comments follow...

1 & 2) Some people, as a matter of philosophy, leave the internals of a dedicated defense weapon bone-stock, while others routinely swap out and install aftermarket guide rods, recoil springs, and barrels; go figure. Our LaserMax units have held up beautifully, after thousands of rounds fired on each.

3) The LaserMax spring can be swapped out in seconds. LaserMax uses a Wolf Spring on a steel guide rod. We've got thousands of rounds on two LaserMax units, in G19 & G21, and neither requires a replacement spring at this time. In fact, both units from 11/2005 and 02/2006 purchases, have required no replacement parts, and only recently, a battery change! Besides, you can pop in the OEM guide rod anytime, for dedicated range practice.

4 & 5) Neither LaserMax nor Crimson Trace advertise their products for sniper accuracy. The units are for defense purposes in handguns, and they're both plenty accurate for that task. In fact, you'll probably tire quickly of the novel accuracy, and revert to perfecting your marksmansip skills!

Sweet Spot: With regard to CT's windage and elevation adjustments, your dialed in sweet spot is an arbitrary distance, an educated guess, at best. Inside or outside that sweet spot, your POI is off your POA.

Offset: LaserMax sits right along the bore axis. The beam running parallel to the bullet's path, is a known offset, at most any practical pistol distance. In our case, rounds appear about 1/4" above the pulsing dot, every time--and yes, they've held zero just fine! Battery life has also been outstanding!

Here's one LEO's review of LaserMax:

http://www.commtechreview.net/firearms/lasermax.htm

Of course, we're all stone cold warriors, and would never waver in the face of impending danger. But even so, matched to the right gun, a laser lets you zero a target without sighting down the barrel, and hold that target while your eyes scan the room, or you dial 911, or open a door. What's more, you'll hit the target from this compromised shooting position--and the target knows that. :uhoh:

As always, lets hope we never need any of these gadgets! ;)

--Ray

[hankdatank1362]

I love my Crimson Trace grips.

They're on a Bi-Tone Sig P226 in .40 that I bought used.


I as well have a bi-tone 226 in .40. I would LOVE to see a pic of your setup. 1BLINDREF has CTCs on his 229 and it looked so good, I've been wondering how it would look on mine.

[jibjab]

I got some new grips today,
76088
Thank you all for your help, I will let you know what I think of these.

[1911 guy]

R&J, I think you miss the point of my post. It's not that I'm against changing things, I've got a Springfield frame and slide with Ed Brown, Wilson Combat, Wolff and Smith & Alexander parts. Those parts, however, are higher quality than original and designed to directly replace the original. They are not designed to add things that don't belong, like a switch sticking out the side of my pistol, a battery compartment in my guide rod and bits of electrical stuff that can shift its weight during recoil.

I'm sure some people have, use and love them. They're just not for me. Find a way to put a laser on my gun without rubbery grips or messing with the internals, I'll be all over it.

[R&J]

1911 guy, said, in part...

1) R&J, I think you miss the point of my post. It's not that I'm against changing things, I've got a Springfield frame and slide with Ed Brown, Wilson Combat, Wolff and Smith & Alexander parts...

2) Those parts, however, are higher quality than original and designed to directly replace the original. They are not designed to add things that don't belong, like a switch sticking out the side of my pistol, a battery compartment in my guide rod and bits of electrical stuff that can shift its weight during recoil.

3) I'm sure some people have, use and love them. They're just not for me. Find a way to put a laser on my gun without rubbery grips or messing with the internals, I'll be all over it.

*****

1) Understood--it's a confidence thing.

2) Also understood. As you know, I was speaking of my experience with LaserMax in Glocks... In this instance, the installation of LaserMax is nearly seamless to the finished gun! Most parts are nearly identical to the OEM counterpart:

- The take down lever has red markers that face the shooter, and a detent groove that acts as the switch. Instead of just pulling down on the lever to remove the slide, you can also push left or right to activate the laser. The part is steel and looks the same.

- The steel take down lever spring looks just like the original, but is a little stiffer, and has a small detent crimped into it to act as an "Off" stop.

- You leave the above two components in place, when using the OEM guide rod/spring assembly.

- The OEM guide rod/spring assembly is a plastic tube with a 17 lb. stock spring. The LaserMax is a steel tube, with a slightly stronger (easily replaceable) Wolf spring. This is the only component that doesn't resemble the OEM part! It seems better... Not that I've had an OEM guide rod fail.

There is a battery cap (which we've had zero problems with) and electronic innards (warranted for three years), just as you say. But they've not been problematic.

We've had great performance, for thousands of rounds, in two guns--9 mm and .45 ACP--with LaserMax, and I'd buy a third, for a Glock, any day.

3) I'm not saying this is for you, 1911 guy, but if you quickly check the following link, and scan down to the pictures, you might see why LaserMax is so attractive an option for the Glock! Note: The LaserMax models used in G19 and G21 do not use a compound spring like the one shown in the article:

http://www.commtechreview.net/firearms/lasermax.htm

If your 1911 has a rail, consider Uni-Max or Uni-Green:

http://www.lasermax.com/

--Ray