SKS mods, illegal?


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Rebel2345
August 20, 2006, 03:01 AM
I read that modifying the SKS, by way of replacing the stock with a pistol grip stock or thumbthrough stock, is illegal. Is this nation wide? I live in Michigan, so I read the Michigan gun laws word for word, and nothing is mentioned of this really.

I read another article about how if you take off the bayonet, grenade launcher, and all things that would make it illegal beyond the Curios & Relics act, that it isnt anymore?

Could anyone clear this up for me?

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lucky_fool
August 20, 2006, 03:16 AM
Welcome to the tangled web of firearms laws.

It really depends on the mods you're planning on, since some of the legal issues are different for imported or US-made guns. The funny thing is that you can swap out certain parts and turn your imported SKS into a US-made one (at least as far as the atf is concerned, anyway. Didn't know you were a magician, did you?

Check out http://www.simonov.net/10orlessrule.htm for more info.

railroader
August 20, 2006, 03:16 AM
http://www.victorinc.com/SKS-FAQ.html Here is good legal info on the sks. Mark

Lupinus
August 20, 2006, 03:23 AM
in general, no so long as the length stays within legal limits. Take note that can easily change though based on local laws but as far as federal goes modifying in of itself isn't illegal.

What it will do however is automatically no longer make an SKS (or any other otherwise elidgable firearm) a C&R firearm. Unless the modification remains in certian specifications modifying it takes it out of C&R land, not sure if that is of importance to you but if it is might be something to consider.

Hkmp5sd
August 20, 2006, 03:25 AM
To simplify everything, it is illegal to put a folding stock on a SKS unless you play ATF's parts count game. Here is how you play the parts count game:

Here's how it works. When a rifle is imported, ATF determines whether or not it is a "sporting" firearm. This is because the 1968 Gun Control Act deemed only "sporting" firearms (plus C&R firearms) could be imported for sale to civilians.

922(r) says that you cannot assemble from imported parts, a firearm that is not legal for importation. This basically prevents importing all of the parts and assembling a firearm that failed to meet the "sporting" clause and was denied importation in its fully assembled configuration.

The problem occurs when someone purchases a rifle and decides they want to make a few alterations to the firearm. The most common one is someone wanting to put a folding stock on a SKS. A SKS with a folding stock does not meet ATF's criteria for a "sporting" firearm and is not legal for importation. If you take your SKS that is already in the country and add a folding stock, you are violating 922(r).

ATF now turns around and says there is a way for you to legally add that folding stock. They say you can change a specific number of imported parts on your rifle with parts made in the US and it suddenly becomes "Made in America" instead of being an import. Firearms made in America do not have to meet this "sporting" clause, so just about any modification is legal.

To make this sudden re-birth as born in the USA, ATF has made a list of 20 parts that they consider major components of a firearm. You take the list and determine how many of the listed parts your rifle contains. It might be 13 or 16 or 19. Whatever.

ATF then says that if your rifle doesn't contain more than 10 "imported" parts, it is not considered an imported firearm. If you figured out your rifle had say 16 parts on the list, you replace any 6 parts on the rifle with US manufactured parts and your rifle is now "Made in America".

You can now make any modifications to your rifle you desire that are legal for any other US made rifle.

The parts list is:



Quote:

(1) Frames, receivers, receiver castings, forgings
or stampings
(2) Barrels
(3) Barrel extensions
(4) Mounting blocks (trunnions)
(5) Muzzle attachments
(6) Bolts
(7) Bolt carriers
(8) Operating rods
(9) Gas pistons
(10) Trigger housings
(11) Triggers
(12) Hammers
(13) Sears
(14) Disconnectors
(15) Buttstocks
(16) Pistol grips
(17) Forearms, handguards
(18) Magazine bodies
(19) Followers
(20) Floorplates

model 649
August 20, 2006, 04:23 PM
Here is the text of the letter ATF sent me after I inquired in January about putting one of those TAPCO telescoping stocks on my SKS. From their letter it clearly looks like any mod(other than removing the bayo) can be subject to invoking the "parts count" game, so , unless you are willing to spend more $ than the rifle is worth, leave it alone to stay legal. (Remember this, Rebel?)
Josh

Thank you for visiting ATF's Website. As stated on our site, generally,
we do not answer technical questions via e-mail, but I contacted our
Firearms Technology Branch (FTB) and was advised the following:

"This is in reply to an e-mail received, in which you ask about
replacing a shoulder stock on an SKS rifle. You also asked about the
number of imported parts as listed in 27 CFR, section 478.39.

Title 18, U.S.C., section 922(r) prohibits assembly of certain
semiautomatic rifles and shotguns from imported parts. The implementing
regulations in 27 CFR, section 478.39(a) provide that no person shall
assemble a semiautomatic rifle or any shotgun using more than 10 of the
following imported parts if the assembled firearm is prohibited from
importation under section 925(d) (3) as not being particularly suitable
or readily adaptable to sporting purposes.

(1) Frames, receivers, receiver castings, forgings or stampings
(2) Barrels
(3) Barrel extensions
(4) Mounting
(5) Muzzle attachments
(6) Bolts
(7) Bolt carriers
(8) Operating rods
(9) Gas pistons
(10) Trigger housings
(11) Triggers
(12) Hammers
(13) Sears
(14) Disconnectors
(15) Buttstocks
(16) Pistol grips
(17) Forearms, handguards (18) Magazine bodies
(19) Followers
(20) Floorplates

A person can lawfully assemble a semiautomatic SKS style rifle with a
stock with a built in pistol grip as decribed in your e-mail link,
provided that the rifle uses 10 or less of the imported parts. The
combination stock would count as two parts, one for the stock and the
second for the pistol grip."

If you have any further questions, please call them on 304-260-1700.
Regards

crazed_ss
August 20, 2006, 06:04 PM
In the ATF's eyes, How many total imported parts make up the SKS?
How many US parts generally need to be replaced to get it under 10 imported parts?

model 649
August 20, 2006, 08:21 PM
Nah, I'll be quiet. Sorry.
Josh

FTF
August 20, 2006, 08:58 PM
What happens if you slap a 30rd AK mag on one?

joab
August 20, 2006, 09:15 PM
What happens if you slap a 30rd AK mag on one?That wouldbe three compliance parts if made in the USA
For an SKS you must replace 9 parts with compliance parts
Here's a table
http://www.tapco.com/page.asp?id=83

mljdeckard
August 20, 2006, 11:07 PM
I asked this question a while ago, and I followed the links to the provided forums, and crawled through the legislation line-by-line.

It is rhetorical, ridiculous, redundant, non-sensical, and unenforceable. I came to a couple of conclusions.

If you actually write BATFE for specific permission, it is more trouble than 1 $125 rifle is worth.

Don't try to put AK mags on it. They don't work. If you want the capacity, buy an AK. They're not that expensive.

If you DO decide to do any mods on your SKS, save all the old parts, and get a receipt for EVERYTHING, and save it all in a box just in case BATFE asks you to prove which parts are original and what you did to it. (This is when I decided to leave it like it is and hope for the best.)

Rebel2345
August 20, 2006, 11:19 PM
I never planned for a high capacity clip really. I just want to put a thumbthrough stock on, like the Fiberforce from ATI, and a Choate scope mount and scope. So since I dont want to replace enough parts, then its illegal ::rolls eyes::



@ model, I remember the chart you sent me. I was just having trouble understanding it at the time, and thought if 15 other people explained it to me, that I might get it :banghead:

I understand for the most part now, but there is one thing that confused me. When I was reading parts of the link that Lucky_fool posted, it states

A Simonov with an Choate Monte Carlo stock, 30 round USA detachable magazine, and the bayonet:
This rifle is IMPORTED as it has 11 listed parts (muzzle attachment and sear), but is still 922(r) legal as it has the detachable magazine and one listed feature.

And then it states

A SKS with a folding ATI Ultralight folding stock, fixed US made magazine, and WITH the bayonet lug, but no bayonet:

This is a US made SKS as it has exactly 10 imported parts. It is also 922(r) legal as it does not have a detachable magazine.

These two statements completely counteract eachother

:cuss:

These people need to pull their heads out of their butts.

Hkmp5sd
August 21, 2006, 12:09 AM
An interesting side note to 922(r). It is NOT illegal to POSSESS a firearm that is not 922(r) compliant. The ACT of making a firearm that is not 922(r) compliant is what is illegal. Once in an illegal configuration, the firearm merely becomes contriband if some LE agency can manage to prove it is illegal. The most they can do is confiscate the firearm. There are thousands of SKSs out there that are not 922(r) compliant and there is no way to prove they are or not. The parts do not have "made is USA" stamped on them.

joab
August 21, 2006, 12:36 AM
These two statements completely counteract eachother Yes ain't it neat how that happens when dealing with AFT regs.

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