Norinco 1911 Trigger Pull


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Rick65Cat
August 21, 2006, 03:17 AM
Hi, I`m new to this list as well as very new to owning handguns. And being new, I`m kinda lame with the terms and names of all the innards of pistols. I have owned rifles and shotguns since the mid 80s.
All that being said, here goes....

I just recently purchased a new Taurus 6" .44 Magnum as well as a new Norinco 1911 .45 Govt model.
I`ve put about 500 rounds through the .45 and I find it takes a hefty pull on the trigger to fire it. With that hefty pull, a shakey hand is the result with no hope of accuracy.
Just on Saturday I was lucky enough to run into a fellow shooter at the range who had a set of trigger scales with him (just a cheap *fish scale* type.) I was a little surprised at how much pull was required. His guage ended at 6 lbs and it took more to "fire" the pistol. Probably around 8 to 9 lbs.

Now, the questions I have...
-Does an auto loader needs a stiffer parts engagement to avoid accidental discharge when the slide is released to load the first round?
-Are there websites detailing a "How to" on doing your own trigger mods? (I would like to achieve about a 4 to 4 1/2 lb pull.)
(I understand the dangers of doing the work as an untrained Smith. I firmly believe though that the work can be done with some basic tools, a bench vice, and help from experts and lots of patience)
-Are the innards of a Norinco mostly the same as a real Colt? A freind has recomended I purchase Jerry Kuhnhausen`s book "The Colt .45 Automatic" Vol. 1
(Same freind said to look for "Tuner1911"s posts. ;)

http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=13805&title=Jerry+Kuhnhausen+SHOP+MANUALS

Any and all help and advice would be appreciated.

Thanks, Rick

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Old Fuff
August 21, 2006, 04:09 AM
A freind has recomended I purchase Jerry Kuhnhausen`s book "The Colt .45 Automatic" Vol. 1. (Same freind said to look for "Tuner1911"s posts.)
That would be a good place to start. The Norinco is a copy/clone of the USGI 1911A1 .45 pistol. Also see:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=132013

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=173646

Rick65Cat
August 22, 2006, 12:01 AM
Ok ok....after spending a ton of time reading your link,

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=132013

I guess its not so simple to do a trigger job. Its probably easier to just give the gun to one of the local Smiths and tell him what I want.

I`ll still probably buy the book by Jerry though.

1911Tuner
August 22, 2006, 07:11 AM
There are a few things that you can do to improve the trigger without getting into trouble. The trick is knowing where the line is, and not crossing it. Basic prep...mainly polishing the interacting parts to eliminate rough spots
and friction...can sometimes clean it up nicely. The amount of improvement varies from gun to gun, and also on how bad it was to start with. This is in no way a "Trigger Job" per se. Dinking around with hammer hook length and sear primary angles can provide anything from a nice trigger to a 38-ounce
1200 rpm sub machinegun that doesn't give warning of when it'll take off...if you go at it without proper equipment, knowledge, and experience. The same caveat goes for the so-called "Drop-In Trigger Job" kits that are marketed. Some work nicely...Some don't. It greatly depends on the individual gun, and how the specs and tolerance stacks fall.

Bottom line...If you alter the trigger action, the responsibility is yours.

Old Fuff
August 22, 2006, 11:39 AM
Its probably easier to just give the gun to one of the local Smiths and tell him what I want.

Maybe, and maybe not... :uhoh:

In my experience many "local 'smiths," regardless of what they say, don't really know beans about doing a correct trigger pull job on a 1911 pistol. On the other hand they may be a wiz when it comes to bird guns and hunting rifles. They may also belong to the "lighter is better" school of trigger finx'n, and that's not always what's best either.

I wasn't trying to discourage you from doing some simple work like Tuner suggested, but rather stop you before you got over your head. The Norinco is not a bad gun, but they sometimes have serious barrel troubles (see Tuner's past threads on this subject) and the folks that built it in China weren't particularly concerned about the trigger pull. The price was right, but they are a bit rough on the inside. Do buy Jerry Kuhnhausen`s book before you do anything else, as it will keep you from making too many mistakes, and help you evaluate just how much the local 'smith really knows. Since you are new to our forum use the search feature and go back and read as many of Tuner's past threads as you can find. You will soon have a much better footing when it comes to 1911 style pistols. ;)

Rick65Cat
August 22, 2006, 01:18 PM
Dinking around with hammer hook length and sear primary angles can provide anything from a nice trigger to a 38-ounce
1200 rpm sub machinegun that doesn't give warning of when it'll take off

Don`t get me wrong. The LAST thing I want is an unsafe gun. (Although a full auto pistol would definately grab attention at the range) :D
I fully understand you can`t go bezerk removing material. "A little goes a long way" as my pappy used to say, "measure twice cut once" etc etc.
And I realize theres probably differences gun to gun on the assembly line.

Bottom line...If you alter the trigger action, the responsibility is yours.

Tuner, I`m not trying to hang responsibility on anyone here for any work I might try. I thought that by asking in my first post that I might be offered some guidance with what parts need polishing, bending, waving magic wand at.
After seeing pictures in the posts I read, I understand now that theres no consistancy between one gun to the next. (hammer hook comparrison pictures)
Its like asking you whats wrong with my car and you haven`t seen it. If you were next door, it would be easier. lol


Fuff, I`m not turned off of doing any work on my firearms, But I did see 5 pages of posts in that link you provided about the issues with hammer hooks. I understand now thats part of the overall package on trigger pull weight. And how ultra criticaly exact the tolerances are. Thats why I said I`d pass it off to a Gunsmith as it most likely would be cheaper in the long run.
Initially, when I first purchased the gun I thought being a rough mass-manufactured Chinese copy, that just firing it about 4 or 500 times would smooth out any burrs. Kinda loosen it up so to speak. I guess thats not the case.
Then, re-thinking the matter...I figured polishing the sear, hammer, and other relative parts could be helpful. Its just a matter of which parts.

Can the center tang on the sear spring be adjusted to reduce the trigger pull?
Am I correct in the theory that by reducing the length of the "tooth" of the hammer hook, that will ease the amout of pull required? (I`m talking by a couple of thousands of an inch) By doing that alone, would that help? Or do I have to then match up the corrosponding angle on the sear?
I`m not going to "gung-ho" go ahead with any answers, I`m only trying to understand the theory.
And yes, I have ordered that book by Jerry Kuhnhausen. ;)

1911Tuner
August 22, 2006, 03:04 PM
Rick wrote:

>>Tuner, I`m not trying to hang responsibility on anyone here for any work I might try.<<
**********

I know...but I gotta say it anyway.:cool:

Reducing the hammer hook length...the "tooth"...makes the break cleaner, and without as much trigger travel. Combined with a correct breakaway/escape angle, it gets crisper and cleaner still...but taking the hooks down to the height proscribed by the true trigger men makes it a little risky unless the sear to hammer hook interface is dead on. Leaving the hooks
at about .025 inch leaves a little more wiggle room if things aren't just so.

Many hammers come with hooks of unequal length. Bringing the long one down to equal the shorter one is okay, as long as it doesn't mean that they have to be cut below .025 inch, and they should be left slightly undersquare.

Bending the center leaf of the sear spring will reduce pull a bit, but remember that the center leaf controls sear and trigger reset. It also works to keep the trigger from bumping the disconnect during a slidelocked reload. If the trigger nudges it a little...and the combination of reduced mainspring load along with shortened, squared hammer hooks can't hold things together, the hammer will follow to half-cock, and possibly all the way, resulting in a slam-fire. Once in a while, the slam-fire turns into a full-auto event...which has to be experienced to be believed, especially if you've only got one hand on it with a loose grip. (Ask Ken Rainey for a full description.)

Cousin Ken! :neener:

Rick65Cat
August 23, 2006, 12:07 PM
I think what would be best for me to do, is to get the Colt book I ordered first and study the parts and get the terminology in my head. Also, figure out the process on how a 1911 actually works. You know, the ankle bones connected to the shin bone, the shin bones connected to the knee bone and so on. :D
Get it down as to what does what and why it does it in what sequence.
Then I`ll be able to understand the whys and hows. Maybe then I`ll give it a try.

Thanks for the help
Rick

BEARMAN
August 23, 2006, 03:25 PM
The Norinco 1911 is a copy of the Colt 1911A1 , it is a direct clone and there is parts interchangeabiliy . The Norinco parts are lower quality but the frames and slides are sometimes better than some American 1911 clones, although they are not as shiny. Sometimes the substituting of an after market sear, hammer or trigger can be done with very little fitting, sometimes a lot of fitting is required. But it is easy to fiddle with small replaceable parts, just don't mess with the frame or slide unless you have the skills to do it right. Here is a site that tells you what is required for various gunsmithing jobs on a 1911. Check it out and you will know what is needed and if you have the equipment and skills to try and what to farm out . www.blindhogg.com/gunsmithing

1911Tuner
August 23, 2006, 06:46 PM
:scrutiny: Bearman! A Norinco is a 1911 clone? Interesting...

mrmeval
August 23, 2006, 08:42 PM
Actually the Norinco was better quality that SA in the same time frame. SA has improved a bit since then.

I had a Nork and only did three things to it. I installed a trigger with an adjustment that allowed slop to be reduced. It did not change anything about the weight of pull.

I put in a two piece follower, it did help with accuracy a bit but made it wonderful when tearing it down for cleaning.

I put a set of Pachmyr wrap around grips on it.

It was a good pistol, reasonable accuracy and performed flawlessly for 1k rounds or so.

I sold it and still regret it but then I regret every gun I've been forced to sell for filthy luchre. I could have starved for a week longer if I'd had the will power. :rolleyes:

Brian D.
August 29, 2006, 03:15 PM
What, nobody mentioned my favorite 1911 trigger pull shortcut? C'mon 1911Tuner, you just love to explain about "boosting the hammer", don'tcha? ;)

Tuner, don't be mad at me for bringing this up, okay? (If he is upset about my suggestion, do a search under the term I used, rick65cat.)

1911Tuner
August 29, 2006, 04:42 PM
Brian...I stopped talkin' about that the first time I saw the hooks cleaned off of an MIM hammer on the second or third boost.:rolleyes:

Rick65Cat
September 12, 2006, 12:42 AM
I received the book I ordered..."The Colt Automatic Vol. I" in the mail today.

I have a slightly better understanding of what needs to be worked on to achieve a lighter (4 - 4 1/2 lb) trigger pull. (hammer hooks, sear etc)
It is a good book, written in great detail...but I believe I`ll be taking it to a "smith" to have him do the work. I just don`t have the tools, (jig, stones,) nor do I have enough patience to do that kind of fine detail work. I`m the type that wants the work done NOW damnit!! :cuss: lol
Where I live, we have a gunshop that deals almost exclusively in military firearms. I have spoken to a few of the guys that work there, and they all know the norinco .45, they all have stated that their shop has done trigger work on the norincos. I`ll just ask for references to back up the claims.

Rick

Canuck-IL
September 12, 2006, 01:16 AM
Good decision but, before you drop it off, learn to detail strip it (easy, look for the sticky), look over the parts carefully, maybe even take a few basic measurements per Kuhnhausen references, and then you can appreciate what the 'smith accomplishes (or have something to refer back to if you're unhappy with the work).
/Bryan

Rick65Cat
September 12, 2006, 09:22 AM
(easy, look for the sticky),

:confused: What sticky?

Canuck-IL
September 12, 2006, 09:32 AM
In the following, first 4 or 5 are on ignition components and then the sticky on Series 70 style detail stripping...
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=61238

especially all of Tuner's posts AND the cautions he emphasizes.
/B

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