EAA Witness


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Bazooka Joe71
August 21, 2006, 06:46 PM
Does anyone own Witness Elite Match? I saw one in 9mm at one of my local gun shops around my area, but unfortunately i have to drive a good little distance to rent guns to try. If anyone has one, could you give me some pro's and con's on it?

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Thefabulousfink
August 21, 2006, 07:18 PM
I have never owned or fired one so I can't comment on that, I DO own a Baby Eagle which is soo mechanically similar that I used an EAA Witness manual to detail strip it. The gun is a near idnetical clone of the CZ-75. Both the CZ and The BE are VERY reliable so I would assume the Witness is the same. I don't know about EAA's quality, but I can't remember anything bad about them.

I know that helps about as much as a poke in the eye, hopefully some one more knowledgeable will be along soon.

CTD99
August 21, 2006, 07:20 PM
Experimental
Aircraft
Association

EAA Witness? I thought someone saw a plane go down. :what:

cdsdss
August 21, 2006, 08:10 PM
Heh...I used to go to their fly-in every August.

RooK
August 22, 2006, 01:07 AM
Maybe someone will pop along that owns a Match, but the buyer seem happy. I'm glad I purchased my standard Witness in 10mm. It's been a good gun so far.

The main complaint you'll see with EAA is their customer service, or lack of. Most of their products are top notch and work out of the box, excepting being the compact Witness. If you get a lemon however, expect to possibly have Paul, their resident gunsmith yell at you and tell a story of how you're at fault and not EAA. :banghead:

SHOOT1SAM
August 22, 2006, 10:24 AM
I have the Elite Match in 10mm.

I had a problem with the magazine; it would fall out when shooting. I elected to take it to a local gunsmith instead of sending it to EAA because of all the stories of their (alleged) crappy customer service. A little adjustment to the catch solved the problem.

It is exceptionally accurate, has shot 100%-no FTF's or FTE's- and is very comfortable to shoot as well.

I highly recommend it.

Sam

laurafan
August 22, 2006, 10:38 AM
I have a witness elite match in .40 S&W. I added it to my growing witness collection in June ( I also have a 9, 45 and 10mm ). I have not had much range time, maybe 300 rounds in 4 trips. I like it, and my buddy with a highly tuned Kimber was also impressed. It is more accurate than my other witnesses. I have had 3 warranty issues ( including a cracked slide and cracked frame on my 45 ), and EAA was slow, but I did not have to deal with Paul ( who has a reputation of being unfriendly ). You can probably find out more in the clone club on czforum.com

Pros - good single action trigger, good ergonomics if you like the CZ 75, EAA stocks some aftermarket stuff, if you are in a state that allows full capacity magazines it has more capacity that other CZ 75 type pistols.

Cons - Its a larger frame than a CZ 75, so CZ 75 mags won't work, EAA customer service could be better, holsters are hard to find ( although some SIG 229 and HK USP holsters can be made to work ), the slide is fitted, so you might not be able to swap top ends for caliber conversions ( which is possible with the regular witness )

I don't know if it is IDPA legal.

The buddy that was with me when I bought it plans on getting the 10mm version when he gets back from Bagdad, and he only handled it for 10 minutes.

armoredman
August 22, 2006, 10:41 AM
Had 6 Witness pistols, only finances forced the sale of any of them. All were excellent, high quality guns that worked perfectly every time.

browningguy
August 22, 2006, 01:23 PM
I picked this one up a few weeks ago in .40 S&W, I've had a Witness PS for several years which has been a reliable, accurate gun. But trust me, the Match model is worth the few dollars extra, one of the dealers had them at the last Houston gun show for $399, so I had to bring one home.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/jcm9371/Pistols/WitnessMatch2.jpg

An incredible bargain in my mind, excellent trigger, decent sights, try some of the holsters for the CZ 40 B, this one fits the Match like a glove.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/jcm9371/Pistols/WitnessMatch1.jpg

Forgot to mention, their customer service seems much better. I called to order three spare mags and the lady that answered was very courteous, checked to make sure they were in stock, and they arrived in about 5-6 days.

Dave P
August 22, 2006, 01:36 PM
I have the Elite Match in 10mm.

Me too. Great gun for the price - had a couple of warts when new, but is perfect now. Maybe 2000 rounds thru it?

Dave

Bazooka Joe71
August 22, 2006, 05:03 PM
Wow, thanks for everyones responses! I appreciate them all.

Well, all of these customer service issues are scaring me a little bit, but as far as reliability it sounds pretty good. Anyone have a match and a CZ75? If so, which one do you like better?

Thanks for the responses.

Lucky 7
August 22, 2006, 06:07 PM
All the CZ-75 types I own (CZ-75B, BE 9900 and EAA Witness Carry-Comp in .45) are all top-notch. I can only assume that the Match is just as good as mine.

Regards,
-L7

bakjr
August 22, 2006, 09:23 PM
Another Witness Match in 10mm here!

I was a little skeptical when I bought it, but it's been a great gun for the money. After fixing the problem with the follower on one of my mags, I've put several hundred rounds down range without a single failure.

It's one of my favorite 10's.

http://mysite.verizon.net/reso3b4u/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/eaamatch.jpg

Bazooka Joe71
August 23, 2006, 04:48 AM
So i guess when its comes down to it, the main different between the Witness Match and CZ75 is the customer service?

Big Gay Al
August 23, 2006, 05:53 AM
I don't know. I have heard horror stories about EAA customer service, so when I had to call because of a faulty magazine, I was worried. But you know what, when I told them what the problem was, they told me to ship the mag to them, and they'd fix it. They sent me a brand new magzine instead. Took less than 3 weeks.

Witness9x19
August 23, 2006, 10:17 AM
I recently purchased an EAA Witness 9x19 Compact and was wondering if anyone else has used one also, and what their opinion of it was. I have practiced with EAA Witnesses in .45 ACP and found them to be reliable and fun to train with. I was hoping that an EAA Witness in a 9mm would be a comfortable off-duty gun and wanted to see what others had thought about it.

Bazooka Joe71
August 23, 2006, 01:24 PM
Well hopefully, if i have time this weekend, ill be able to tell you. Im gonna try to make it out to the place where they do rent and try and shoot it a little bit.

All of these customer service complaints is scaring me still, but maybe they've gotten better?

Big Gay Al
August 23, 2006, 01:32 PM
If my experience is any example, I'd say their customer service has improved.

And while it doesn't look as good as the fancier version, below is my .45 Witness.

http://www.albertlowe.com/images/mywitness.jpg

Hopefully, when I get one of the conversion units I want, it will look better. I intend to get the conversion unit in blue steel, for contrast. ;)

Bazooka Joe71
August 23, 2006, 01:44 PM
Well, i think thats 3 people that said the C/S has improved.....Maybe Im gonna have to give them a chance

Seismic Sam
August 23, 2006, 04:02 PM
Sounds like you got the nice lady out front, rather than Pissy Paul in the back, and with magazine problems EAA generally has been OK to deal with. 10 rounder broke at the welds? We'll send you a new one...

If, however, you ever call up with something actually WRONG with the GUN and they transfer you to Paul, get ready for the customer experience from hell. WhatEVER is wrong with your gun was caused by you shooting handloads in it, you stupid nincompoop, and go get the gun fixed by a professional gunsmith with your own money!! :fire: :cuss: :banghead: :barf:

P.S. The guns are great, and I love my 10mm and 45 Witnesses, and am looking at a 10mm Stock. A 10mm Match would be a good looker too, and an ass-kicker to boot!

Bazooka Joe71
August 23, 2006, 04:32 PM
So basically if my gun breaks, peckerhead Paul is going to tell me to go "F" myself? And im gonna have to pay to get it fixed? I don't think i feel like taking that risk. Also, i do not own a 10 mm, how cheap/expensive is the ammo? Is it about the same price as a .40S&W, or is it closer to 9mm price.

LiquidTension
August 23, 2006, 04:46 PM
10mm is quite a bit more expensive than .40S&W. For the price of a case of 10mm ammo you could get an entire reloading setup, but if you're going to shoot a lot you may want to do that anyway.

I just checked Ammoman, I'm sure there are cheaper places out there.

Reed1911
August 23, 2006, 05:06 PM
Well, I just have to give my two cents. As a disclaimer I sell a lot of EAA pistols and accessories so..

When you call with a problem, if you are beligerent, asinine, angry, or pissy, yup Paul is going to bite right back at you. He is like a lot of older gunsmiths that really do not have the time to have a customer tell him what is wrong and how he should fix it. If you tell him the problem and ask for his solution he'll give it to you. Don't argue, just take it or leave it. He is the most proficent Tanfoglio gunsmith in the U.S.A. and one of the few that know all of the pistols inside and out. If you think you know what is wrong, and how it should be fixed, and that your 'smith is better by all means take it to them. If not, call them tell them the problem and his answer will be either a quick fix (if available) or to send it to him.
I agree his temperment is not the best but he does know what he's talking about and that is why you called him.

'Card
August 23, 2006, 05:27 PM
I agree his temperment is not the best but he does know what he's talking about and that is why you called him.
I don't care how knowledgeable the guy is - if he can't keep a civil tongue in his head when he's talking to customers, then no company that's actually interested in customer service would ever allow him to come into contact with people who have paid money for their products.

Have the questions relayed through a third party if that's what it takes, but the idea of letting your company get a bad customer service reputation because of some crusty (but oh-so knowledgeable) fart in the back is ludicrous.

Reed1911
August 23, 2006, 05:41 PM
if he can't keep a civil tongue in his head when he's talking to customers, then no company that's actually interested in customer service would ever allow him to come into contact with people who have paid money for their products.


The same can be said for customers.

As I said, if you bark at him he'll bark right back. If a customer cannot keep his temper and calls to yell and scream can you really blame him?

I'm not tyring to make excuses for him, just giving you all an idea of what I see. I'm pretty laid back and if someone calls to scream at me I let them rant until they have had their say and then work on correcting any problems, most of the time the customer just thinks that it is going to take them being pissed off to get anything done. Which with certain large companies is in fact the case, here we just need a call or e-mail. Then again, that's me not him.

Reed1911
August 23, 2006, 05:45 PM
Oh! BTW, he's also the vice-president IIRC.

Bazooka Joe71
August 23, 2006, 05:56 PM
Well, honestly, if that is the case with Paul, then there isnt an issue. I am also a pretty laid back guy, and would never start screaming into the phone demanding my gun fixed. BUT, if i was curtious, and he was still crappy with me, then im gonna be pissed that i bought a gun from them.

Big Gay Al
August 23, 2006, 08:00 PM
10mm is quite a bit more expensive than .40S&W. For the price of a case of 10mm ammo you could get an entire reloading setup, but if you're going to shoot a lot you may want to do that anyway.

I just checked Ammoman, I'm sure there are cheaper places out there.
Well, you might checks Reed's Ammo and Research, http://www.reedsammo.com They've got a great selection, and the prices look pretty good to me, specially for what some people still consider a "specialty caliber."

RooK
August 24, 2006, 02:09 AM
Reed, you guys wouldn't happen to have any 10mm 6" match barrels in stock, eh? I really wanted to buy a 10mm longslide upper unit, but EAA doesn't offer it. I assume you can't get one either. Also, can you get any of the small parts (trigger, hammer, safety) at better prices than EAA?

LiquidTension
August 24, 2006, 06:09 AM
Well, you might checks Reed's Ammo and Research, http://www.reedsammo.com They've got a great selection, and the prices look pretty good to me, specially for what some people still consider a "specialty caliber."

While $16.59 is a pretty good price, it's still quite a bit more expensive than <$12 per box for .40.

Reed1911
August 24, 2006, 07:03 AM
Small parts we can order in, but they are the same or a little higher than the cost that EAA lists. Barrels we can order in, except for the 6" 10mm. Tanfoglio still does not make them. Don't ask me why they are listed, I asked the same thing.

On ammo, we used to have the 10mm RM available at 12.50-13.50 per box but with the cost of brass so high it is no longer available until the cost settles back down. As for being more expensive than .40 short and weak (:) ) I don't forsee a future where the 10mm will ever be as inexpensive as it. I also don't see the 357 Mag being less than the .38, or the 40 being less than the 9mm. If nothing else, we do re-load customer's once fired brass in almost all the calibers so as always Save your brass, even if you don't plan to reload it you can give it away, trade it away, or sell it for scrap (Wed 8-23 price on scrap yellow brass was $2.06 per lb.)

Big Gay Al
August 24, 2006, 09:14 AM
I don't think I've seen anyone with cheaper prices on the small parts. At least Reed sells the conversion units cheaper than EAA.

Yeah, $16.00 a box doesn't beat $12.00 per box. Neither does 12.00 beat <$8.00 per box of 9mm either. But then I always end up paying premium prices for carry ammo. Target practice ammo, I search for cheaper prices.

If you want want it cheaper, either buy in bulk, or start reloading. Both of which I'm going to have to consider if/when I can afford to get the 10mm conversion. Which may have to wait until tax time. Unless a job I've been looking at starts up soon.

RooK
August 24, 2006, 12:09 PM
Reed, so EAA can't even get the 6"? I hadn't asked, but this makes me more and more want to trade my Witness for a Glock. I'm wanting accessories that apparently aren't made for the Witness, or are hard to get. Namely sights and barrels. I like the Witness' single action trigger and steel frame, but it seems limited unless you want to leave it 'as is' or pay out the rear for one of their specialty models... Not the match, that thing is a good deal, wish it was around when I got my Witness.

LiquidTension, the 10mm is practically a magnum round. It's cheaper than the big revolver cartridges for ammo, but more than traditional service calibers. You pay for the extra performance. If you want something that can handle just about any chore, from self-defense to medium-game hunting to fun and attention, then the 10mm is it. The 9mm, .40S&W, and .45 ACP are cheaper, but can they push a 200gr bullet at 1200fps from a service gun? What about a 135gr bullet at 1600fps?

So, anyone know where I can get my hands on a .40 Super barrel (prefer 6") for a 1911? If I can't get the velocity/features out of my Witness for my use, I'll start disecting a 1911 of mine.

the hudge
August 24, 2006, 12:55 PM
Ill try to be quick. Two e.a.a.'s at once. Limited Gold .40 and the E. Match 9mm. $1,000 and $500, new. The mag problams with the 9? Same mags for all cal. just bend the feed lips smaller. 9,s nose dive under feed ramp. Tech prob. talk to Tech. (I dont shoot reloads) No you shoot bad ammo. Round and round we go. Sold gun before new re-desined mags came in (4 months later).
Gold .40, failed to eject, closer look, ejector loose and spring week. Tech Prob. Talk to Tech. No you shoot bad ammo. Slod this gun for a major loss.
Both guns were in three times each for repair. The thrid time back I did not shoot the gold (it looked like they actualy fixed it) I sold it. I sold the Match after they tryed to make me buy the new improved mags. X 5.

I will never buy anything from this Co. again, nor do I advise you too. You might not have the same trouble I had, but then again.

(Where is the spell check on this thing)

Big Gay Al
August 24, 2006, 04:45 PM
Rook, how is EAA supposed to get a 6" barrel for the Witness, when the longest one that Tanfoglio makes is 5.25"? If you really want a 6" barrel for it, it will HAVE to be custom made. Unless some barrel maker out there already makes barrels for it.

You might try Bar-Sto. They make barrels for the CZ P9, which they say will fit the EAA witness. This barrel costs $200.00 according to their website. You might get them to make a 6" 10mm. But there's no telling how much they'll want for a one off like that. Apparently they don't make the CZ P9 barrel in 10mm, nor any other CZ type barrel. Their site says 9mm, .40 S&W, and .357 SIG. I guess it's one way to get a .357 Sig version.
http://www.barsto.com/category_main.cfm?ID=CZP

The Hudge: All I can tell you, EVERYONE produces bad guns from time to time. I guess it was just your bad luck to get two bad ones at once. I do think they should have replaced the mags you had, rather than charge you for it.

All I know is that so far, my .45 Witness has worked just great, and my one experince with Customer service has been equally great. All I can really say is, better luck next time.

RooK
August 24, 2006, 06:26 PM
Rook, how is EAA supposed to get a 6" barrel for the Witness, when the longest one that Tanfoglio makes is 5.25"? If you really want a 6" barrel for it, it will HAVE to be custom made. Unless some barrel maker out there already makes barrels for it.

Well, EAA is the one listing it on their site for sale. Ask them, eh? That's why it came as a shock when Reed made his comment, seeing as I hadn't inquired EAA about it. I emailed them a while back about a 10mm longslide, just to see if it was even possible to get one because they used to sell them. I was quite thorough in asking specific questions. All I got in reply was, "Sir, we don't carry that." Nothing else. No idea who replied, and they dismissed all my other questions.

Like I said, I guess I'll go with the .40 Super or something like that for the 1911. Maybe even .45 Super. I can get a BarSto barrel for $200, $265 for 6". The Witness is just too much of a hassle (and expense) to do anything with it besides leaving it stock. A 22lb recoil spring for full-power loads is about the only modification you can make short of spending $50.

Another knock for EAA: They don't consider full-power ammo to be supported by the 10mm Witness. If someone has a problem because a part failed and they mention using Double Tap or some other specialty ammo loaded to actual SAAMI specs, they have a history of not wanting to help.

Big Gay Al
August 24, 2006, 06:32 PM
Did you ask them if the 6" barrel they carry will fit a standard slide? I mean, if you want a 6" barrel, does it need a slide to cover it all the way?

Since I can't find the 6" barrel on Tanfoglio's site, I'm wondering if EAA ordered the 6" barrels from someone else?

As for the rest, there are plenty of people who use the 10mm Witness with full power ammo, so I'm not that concerned about it. And if I did break a part on it, I certainly would never admit to having used Double Tap ammo.

But maybe that's just me. ;)

RooK
August 24, 2006, 07:30 PM
I might try emailing them again. Maybe this time I would get more than a one sentence answer. Personally, I'd like to have the extra sight radius a longslide offers. Is it something I can skip? Sure.

Double Tap would be the least of my problems. I would have to omit the part where a heavy load of x800 or Blue Dot was powering the gun when it went downhill. If they ever ask, I was using AE 180gr TC loads. BTW, who has the cheapest 15rnd 10mm mags?

Big Gay Al
August 24, 2006, 08:14 PM
Reeds Ammo has them listed at $20.00 each for Original Tanfoglio made mags.

I've not seen them any cheaper, unless they're used. But you might try gunbroker.com.

Seismic Sam
August 29, 2006, 06:44 PM
I ordered a 10mm comp kit from EAA, and when it showed up I put the longer barrel and recoil rod in it, and then screwed on the comp and tried to rack the slide. No go. Looked at the gun, COULD NOT figure out what was wrong, and called up EAA. :barf: Paul came on the line, listened to my problem, told me that those comp kits could ONLY be installed by a professional gunsmith that I would have to pay myself to have done, and the tone in his voice intimated that I was a clueless idiot and he was God, and then he pretty much hung up on me. He never offered any help as to what might be the problem, never suggested that the kit could have been faulty, and sure as hell didn't offer to send me a new one to see if it worked better. He was just arrogant and disintrested, and I was so taken aback by his behavior that I didn't even have the presence of mind to protest, much less get rude about it.

Turns out the recoil rod was too long on the comp kit, so that the barrel would not unlock from the slide when the comp was screwed on, so the original kit was defective. It took me a couple of hours through a local gun guru to find an EAA expert in Florida who had seen this before and knew what the problem was, and after I ground .200" off the recoil rod the gun worked fine.

Bottom line, MY job is customer service on the phone for 3M, and no matter WHAT the customer says to you, or whether he curses you or your products out, your job is to remain professional and try to solve the problem for that customer any way you can. Suggesting that Paul Richter has ANY right to behave the way he does if there's a dissatisfied customer on the line is pure B.S.

BTW - here's a compendium of some of the people Paul has dealt with - you don't generate a fan club like this if you're a decent human being:

http://p201.ezboard.com/fczechpistols82792frm35.showMessage?topicID=1796.topic

Bazooka Joe71
August 29, 2006, 06:48 PM
Thats just plain rediculous. No excuse for that.

JaxNovice
August 29, 2006, 07:02 PM
MR. Reed,

Do you have any more pix of the FN Browning you have on your site? Is it NIB? Looks like a good deal.

Reed1911
August 29, 2006, 07:28 PM
Jax,

I do have various pics (three I think), They are brand new in the box. Shoot me an e-mail either direct info@reedsammo.com or through the website and I will e-mail them to you.

400.00 ea shipped, .40 S&W Single-Action and SFS both available.

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