Police: Armed customer stops KFC robbery


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Desertdog
August 21, 2006, 07:37 PM
Police: Armed customer stops KFC robbery
http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060818/NEWS01/60818008

By Vic Ryckaert
vic.ryckaert@indystar.com
Police say a would-be robber is in jail this morning after a customer foiled the suspect’s attempted hold-up of a restaurant on the Westside.


William McMiller Jr., 40, was arrested on an initial charge of robbery after he demanded money and threatened to shoot a cashier at the Kentucky Fried Chicken, 2801 W. 16th Street, at about 3:20 p.m. Thursday, according to Indianapolis police reports.
McMiller, records show, is being held in the Marion County Jail on $80,000 bond.

McMiller, police said, ordered a bucket of chicken then told cashier Deanne Slaughter: “Give me the money before I shoot you.”

The suspect held his hand in his back pocket as if reaching for a gun, police said, then lifted his foot to jump over the counter.

Paul Sherlock, a customer sitting in the dining room, approached and pointed a Taurus 9-mm handgun towards the suspect’s back.

The suspect raised his hands over his head, police said. Sherlock ordered him to lean against a window with his hands up until police arrived.

Police found a long screwdriver, not a gun, in McMiller’s pocket.

Sherlock told The Star today that he was acting on instinct.

“I was nervous man, I ain’t gonna lie, not scared though,” he said. “It never crossed my mind that he might try to do something to me.”

Sherlock was in the restaurant waiting for a friend who works there when the robbery occurred. The suspect was focused on getting the cash and didn’t notice Sherlock moving in from behind.

He said he hopes McMiller spends some time in prison for the crime.

“I hope he gets what he deserves,” Sherlock said, “at least a little time to think about what he was doing.”

Sherlock had a valid gun permit, police said.


Call Star reporter Vic Ryckaert!at (317) 444-2761.

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Autolycus
August 21, 2006, 07:43 PM
Its nice to see people helping out.

Biker
August 21, 2006, 07:46 PM
Ah, the CCWer passed up a perfect Clint Eastwood moment. When the robber gave up and raised his hands, the hero should've used the classic line, "What's the matter Colonel Sanders....chicken?"

Biker

HighVelocity
August 22, 2006, 12:01 AM
"What's the matter Colonel Sanders....chicken?"

I'm dyin over here! :D

Ezekiel
August 22, 2006, 12:25 AM
“It never crossed my mind that he might try to do something to me.”

This is not a guy I want whipping a gun out in the middle of a robbery when a weapon is not seen. Give the loser his ~$35, some chicken, and get him the Hell out of there: much safer then John Q. playing John Wayne.

"The Good Guys were lucky here, that's all."

roo_ster
August 22, 2006, 09:15 AM
This is not a guy I want whipping a gun out in the middle of a robbery when a weapon is not seen.
I'm glad you don't have a say in the decision.

Maybe you can help eliminate "shall-issue" CHLs in your state of MO so that only folks you think qualified can pack heat.

mons meg
August 22, 2006, 09:25 AM
Maybe he missed the part abotui the robber verbally threatening to shoot the cashier... :scrutiny:

Vitamin G
August 22, 2006, 09:54 AM
Makes me want to see some ballistic tests to see what happens to various JHP's when they go through 1 layer of denim, then 6 feet of air, THEN 1 layer of denim, then the gelatin.
Just in case I ever work at KFC.

I like to think i'd have done the same thing. Bonus points for no one dying.

Ezekiel
August 22, 2006, 11:00 AM
I'm glad you don't have a say in the decision.

Oh, I'm sure that I get a vote, just like anyone else.

Let's use some of the knowledge that I happen to have though life experience, education and employment, okay?

If this loser is holding up a KFC -- they have glass partitions here, by the way -- he's not a Master Criminal. Second, if the weapon is designed to induce fear or be used, he presents it. Finally, although a screwdriver can be a deadly weapon, it is not so dangerous as John Q. interjecting himself into a potentially stressful situation with a firearm. A lot more things go bad with a handgun as compared to a screwdriver, regardless of their equal status as tools.

(sigh) What you likely had was a lone crackhead, carrying something he could defensibly argue was not a weapon, trying to find something to eat and loose cash for his next rock. Basically, a street urchin.

Such is MUCH less dangerous then John Q., with delusions of grandeur, deep in the throes of Gun Mentality(tm). :banghead:

hankdatank1362
August 22, 2006, 11:08 AM
That "street urchin" could have quite possibly stabbed some poor girl that didn't give him his money or his extra crispy fast enough. Any threat of violence should be met with superior force and the willingness to back it up, as this good citizen had. Just be glad no one got hurt (Although I wouldn't shed any tears if the crackhead happened to catch one or two hot ones, but in this scenario, it wasn't called for.)

El Tejon
August 22, 2006, 11:53 AM
1. There are no glass partitions in the KFC on the westside of Indianapolis (Speedway).

2. Whether or not he is a Master Criminal is immaterial. What is at issue is whether the robber is a threat to yourself or others as judged by the reasonable man standard.

3. I would not discount a screwdriver so quickly; I have seen a murder committed with a shampoo bottle. As well, I have had screwdrivers used in Aggravated Batteries and Att Murder (they work real well in an "ice pick" hold straight into the neck or clavicle). A deadly weapon is per se or manner of use. A screwdriver can be a deadly weapon by either category.

4. I do agree that the decision to act was optional for Mr. Sherlock. I for one do wholeheartedly agree with Ezek that some who carry guns are subject to Batmanitis. However, Mr. Sherlock was certainly within the law (if the fact pattern is correct [granted big if for the media]) to use his firearm as he did.

Desertdog
August 22, 2006, 12:38 PM
A lot more things go bad with a handgun as compared to a screwdriver, regardless of their equal status as tools.
Bradyite.

More people are probably killed by cops than CCW holders too.
The next time the BG may have had a gun instead of a screwdriver.

Good going, Good Guy.

rino451
August 22, 2006, 12:49 PM
“It never crossed my mind that he might try to do something to me.”

Could mean that he did what he did w/o regard for his own personal safety. Bravo!

Regarding possible threats, who is going to go through the mental math:

Ok, he's already threatened to shoot someone but I don't see a gun so I'll wait until I see a gun.

Ok, I see a gun, but he's only threatened to use it so I'll wait until I know he will for sure...

Ok, he just killed the clerk, guess I should act...

To late. You just lost the initiative and noe someone's dead. Why carry in the first place?

This is not a guy I want whipping a gun out in the middle of a robbery when a weapon is not seen. Give the loser his ~$35, some chicken, and get him the Hell out of there: much safer then John Q. playing John Wayne.

Sounds like the good guys actions are being criticized because of the weapon being a screwdriver trump his threat to shoot. One HAS to assume that he had a gun and intended to use it. He said as much.

"The Good Guys were lucky here, that's all."

Win or loose, the Good Guys can't stand idly by definition.

Sawdust
August 22, 2006, 12:50 PM
Yeah, we should just let the poor criminal make-off with his booty. :rolleyes:

I don't care if he was stealing just one nugget. He threatened the life of another, and he's a thief.

Good shoe.

Sawdust

Biker
August 22, 2006, 12:55 PM
That one got a Bailey's and coffee snort (right out the nose) El Tejon.

Biker

Ezekiel
August 22, 2006, 01:10 PM
I don't care if he was stealing just one nugget. He threatened the life of another, and he's a thief.

"You're going to wack a guy for a nugget?"

Ridiculous.

"Batmanitis", "Gun Mentality(tm)", "Chairborne Rangers," etc. -- they're all the same people... :banghead:

Ezekiel
August 22, 2006, 01:12 PM
Regarding possible threats, who is going to go through the mental math:

If you do not do "mental math" before, during and after the perceived threat, you are the threat.

It's not that hard... :fire:

orangeninja
August 22, 2006, 01:22 PM
Sometimes CHL holders get shot.......it happened in Tyler when an AK47 maniac was taking out people all over the court house. A CHL holder shot the suspect (from reports) multiple times but the badguy had body armor and killed the CHL holder.

But in this case I think you've got a clean pinch. Bad guy says he has a gun, who are we to question that? Act accordingly. The suspect is really lucky...the CHL holder could have simply shot him......after all, it was a panicy type of situation.

BTW........street urchins hurt people all the time.

WayneConrad
August 22, 2006, 01:25 PM
I am amazed that some of us are willing to let the bad guy claim and act like he is going to kill someone and yet stand by. Clearly, the lawyers and gun grabbers have won when our first thought is not on saving lives, but is instead on how the civil suit and the newspaper article will play out.

Ezekiel
August 22, 2006, 01:37 PM
I am amazed that some of us are willing to let the bad guy claim and act like he is going to kill someone and yet stand by.

"Anything to justify gunplay, right?"

The loser can say whatever he desires. At the point of John Wayne interception, there had been no weapon production and there was a counter -- minimum -- between the would-be thief and the person "threatened."

Instead, "Mr. Heroic" sneaks behind the guy like a ninja (how long did that take?), whips out his Taurus, and places two people in the line of fire (what was his backstop?) over some chicken. :barf:

Give the guy his extra crispy and $35 without escalating, introducing random elements, or otherwise endangering other bovine John Q.-types because you felt like playing Rambo in a restaurant. This is all about environment. Personally, I cannot justify to myself how anyone should get shot over the Colonel's recipe.

Biker
August 22, 2006, 01:37 PM
Seriously, everything depends upon the terrain and situation. A guy has a screwdriver and wants a couple of wings and $20 ("And throw in some coleslaw!). If he isn't really a threat, do you really want to hole him? There are consequences and reprocussions that accompany a killing that go far beyond the courtroom. Putting a man in the ground - unless he really needs killing - should be the last option.
A wine-reeking bum toting a Craftsman, flathead WMD can usually be dealt with in a less harsh manner. If he had a gun, he would have shown it in all likelyhood.
I wouldn't draw down on the guy unless I was reasonably sure he was a real threat.
Being a hero ain't all it's cracked up to be.
JMO...

Biker

Ezekiel
August 22, 2006, 01:43 PM
Being a hero ain't all it's cracked up to be.

Truer words have never been said. :D

Your analysis is the same as mine, but with a lot less "cynical nature."

Kudos!

Ezekiel
August 22, 2006, 01:48 PM
Bradyite.

Ease up, Tackleberry! :evil:

Thefabulousfink
August 22, 2006, 01:59 PM
Good men should not abide evil where ever they may find it.

Yes, there are things that could have been done better.
Yes, the situation could have turned deadly.

But the fact of the matter is that no one died and the bad guy is in jail. IMHO if a more John Qs had a bit more John Wayne in them we would have a lot less crack heads thinking that they can rob a place for easy cash.

But I suppose that is not the MAIN argument for CCW.:rolleyes:

Phantom Warrior
August 22, 2006, 02:08 PM
I think it isn't entirely fair for us to quarterback the situation after the fact. The guy had maybe a minute to make a decision based on incomplete information. He didn't know what the guy was actually packing and he had no idea as to the guy's actual motive and willingness to commit violence. I also don't think it's fair to automatically assume the guy was only interested in $35 and maybe some chicken. Maybe he was. But maybe he would have killed the girl or roughed her up or dragged her along as a hostage to cover his get away. Maybe the simple fact that Sherlock had the drop on him prevented him from doing anything more serious.

The bottom line is that the situation was resolved without anyone hurt, a crime was prevented (possible several), and the criminal was apprehended. I think this one goes in the win column.

Biker
August 22, 2006, 02:09 PM
Fact is Fink, things aren't always so black and white in the real world as is good and evil in theory. The real world just doesn't work that way. Whole lotta grey out there. I don't *like* grey, but it is a color and realm that needs to be taken into account. Killing is so damn *final*.

Biker

DKSuddeth
August 22, 2006, 02:11 PM
again, the monday morning quarterbacking does nobody a bit of good.

the guy saw a robbery taking place and a threat made with a declared, but as yet unkown, weapon. He made a choice and followed it through. It's completely unfair to the individual in question to bad mouth or criticize his actions simply because you 'feel' that he didn't have 110% of the situation in hand. He stopped the robbery and prevented any attempt at harming the lady behind the counter. He should be congratulated for not backing down and following through without a shot being fired. Only THEN should we consider a little constructive criticism, especially when nobody really knows how THEY would react in a similar situation, unless they've already been there.

Ezekiel
August 22, 2006, 02:15 PM
The bottom line is that the situation was resolved without anyone hurt, a crime was prevented (possible several), and the criminal was apprehended. I think this one goes in the win column.

"Fair assessment." :cool:

Biker
August 22, 2006, 02:16 PM
Been there, DK. That's why I feel qualified to bump my gums on the subject. I'm not necessarily downing the CCWer who drew down on Chicken Boy, just responding to some posts unconditionally condoning his actions.
Hope this clears things up.

Biker

roo_ster
August 22, 2006, 02:22 PM
If you do not do "mental math" before, during and after the perceived threat, you are the threat.
No, the threat is still the guy threatening to commit violence on an innocent third party.

Not doing a situational analysis and placing in a thought-matrix the likely outcomes does not magically transform a body into the threat in either the practical or moral sense.

Lack of situational understanding may be foolish, regrettable, or just a given for the situation (if one is desperately trying to get ahead of the power curve in a surprise encounter). It has no bearing on the morality of the actors. If it did, every good cop who was bushwhacked by bad guys...was the bad guy.

Not everyone who carries a CCW is going to be Jeff Cooper in Condition Yellow. Most are going to be regular folks who go about their day and carry a CCW for the same reason they buckle their seat belts or lock their doors at night. I may prefer that they be a bit more vigilant and cognizant, but I'd rather that Joe Average have the right to carry CCW than not.

Ezekiel
August 22, 2006, 02:37 PM
Great points, JFruser.

Not doing a situational analysis and placing in a thought-matrix the likely outcomes does not magically transform a body into the threat in either the practical or moral sense.

Perhaps not in an esoteric sense, but not thinking and being the full reason why a situation has been escalated to deadly force parameters most definitely makes, metaphorically, you the culprit in both a practical and moral sense.

Sometimes such is justified, sometimes not: but ducking the responsibility -- or hiding behind an interpretable law to "condone" ones actions -- is precisely what makes one a Chairborne Ranger and/or Mall Ninja.

Most are going to be regular folks who go about their day and carry a CCW for the same reason they buckle their seat belts or lock their doors at night.

Perhaps, but John Q.'s inability to properly buckle his seat belt or lock his door has no adverse effect on my safety or liberty. Someone playing Rambo, in a public setting, over some Extra Crispy does. It is decidedly NOT the same.

Not everyone who carries a CCW is going to be Jeff Cooper in Condition Yellow.

But they should be. That's the entire point and burden of having the ability to take a life.

This, current, action seems to have worked out: everybody got lucky, even the perp. Just as easily our hero could have let a JHP go through a skinny crackhead (pre-supposition, I know) and into a 17-year old girl working her summer job.

This for some loose cash and chicken. :uhoh:

I'm glad folks are okay.

Ezekiel
August 22, 2006, 02:45 PM
I wonder how KFC feels about all this? :confused:

We'll know if signs go up, if they're not already there...

Malum Prohibitum
August 22, 2006, 02:46 PM
Would a police officer have acted?

(It's a rhetorical question, Ezekiel)

Biker
August 22, 2006, 02:50 PM
Yup, likely so, but we're not cops.

Biker

Ezekiel
August 22, 2006, 02:53 PM
Would a police officer have acted?

I'd hazard a guess of, "not until the guy was exiting" or when immediate deadly force was introduced.

The goal (in this case) has nothing to do with protecting property, from a police perspective. It has everything to do with protecting innocents.

Best case? "Take him at the door."

Worst case? "He gets away."

Nobody hurt? "Priceless."

Mitty
August 22, 2006, 03:09 PM
This is not a guy I want whipping a gun out in the middle of a robbery when a weapon is not seen. Give the loser his ~$35, some chicken, and get him the Hell out of there: much safer then John Q. playing John Wayne.

Evil prevails when good men do nothing.

El Tejon
August 22, 2006, 03:18 PM
Biker, I beg to differ, I'm ex-LE and I have a ginuwine CCW badge that I wear on my BatUtility Belt.:neener:

Desertdog
August 22, 2006, 03:19 PM
"You're going to wack a guy for a nugget?"
How about wacking the guy for “Give me the money before I shoot you.”

carebear
August 22, 2006, 03:41 PM
I like how "moved in behind him" (a sound choice) morphed into "lined him up with an innocent target" to bolster the worst case scenario.

Last I looked, my range of vision is about 200. Anything behind that is "behind" me.

I've been in some KFC's and I've eaten some chicken, I can picture innumerable lines of fire on a man in front of the counter that have nothing but nice solid stainless steel backstop in case of overpenetration.

Thefabulousfink
August 22, 2006, 04:01 PM
Fact is Fink, things aren't always so black and white in the real world as is good and evil in theory. The real world just doesn't work that way. Whole lotta grey out there. I don't *like* grey, but it is a color and realm that needs to be taken into account. Killing is so damn *final*.

Biker

That was my Idealism showing through. The world is not black and white, and when one of those grey areas throws you a curve that defies common sense it is your morals and ideals that you have to fall back on.

Killing is *final*, but no one was killed. Now if the BG actually had a gun or if he had jumped at somebody with the screw driver that would be a different story than "stealling $35 and some extra crispy."

I is not like anyone dove over the counter, firing John Woo style with a gun in each hand. He got the drop on the BG moved him to a safe position, and kept him covered until help arrived. He didn't needlessly endanger anybody, the BG was peacefully subdued, what is the problem.

I will agree that there are times when it is unwise for a CCW holder to draw and challenge a criminal, I just don't think that this was one of them. I just can't bring myself to condem the actions of a lawabiding citzen who stood up to an ARMED CRIMINAL in the act of COMMITING A FELONY and essentially saying, "We don't abide that sh*t in my town." There are too many Anti's out there to do that for us.

Edit: Mabey he just should of "minded his own business" until the BG shot the cashier, or better yet, kept his gun safely locked up at home and let the police handle it. After all, that's their job.

Low-Sci
August 22, 2006, 05:51 PM
From the report, I actually think this went very well. We don't know the specifics of how Sherlock maneuvered or what his line of fire was or how far away he was, so I won't speculate because that's not fair.

I will say he reacted very well. He drew early, which is something I wholeheartedly approve of. He caught some trouble starting, and he got ready for it. If there was going to be a fight, he would start the fight with his gun in his hand, excellent.

Sherlock, very obviously, didn't react to "gimme some chicken, bitch." He heard a threat of lethal force by gun, and he responded with an appropriate force level. He may very well have saved that employee's life.

He doesn't have to know exactly what's up with the criminal, ie what weapon he has, to respond appropriately.

Bottom line, this was excellent handling of the situation by Sherlock, it ended great. Maybe he should be thinking more about what the criminal might do to him next time, but I'll leave it at that.

yhtomit
August 22, 2006, 06:59 PM
I'm not sure how many people were in the restaurant; perhaps it was nearly deserted. What if the threat had been accurate, and the clerk had been shot? The threat to shoot makes any witness a liability.

Perhaps newspaper reports of crimes like this should all come with a diagram and a stats box -- that way some of the quarterbacking can at least be informed by the situation as it existed :)

timothy

mpmarty
August 22, 2006, 07:21 PM
Let's quit assuming a screwdriver was his weapon of choice. Remember, this is a KFC and it has mucho glass around the customer area. Would you pull a gun in there or keep it hidden so some cop driving by couldn't spot what was going on? I'm sure the perp scanned the inside for possible cops and decided our CCW guy was harmless... His Mistake! The reaction of the CCW holder was immediate, forceful enough and well executed. Bravo! End of conjecture as to what the BG had in his pocket besides his hand.

gunner03
August 22, 2006, 07:28 PM
The suspect held his hand in his back pocket as if reaching for a gun, police said, then lifted his foot to jump over the counter.
This seems to me to indicate the situation was about to escalate!

Art Eatman
August 22, 2006, 08:03 PM
Somebody says they're gonna shoot a store clerk, and has a hand making some sort of motion to indicate they're getting ready to be able to do so:

I'm gonna do my best to make them stop moving that hand, ASAP. Preferably verbally, of course, but saving a Good Guy from death or serious injury is more important than worrying about the life of a would-be murderer.

The thing about me is that I'm real gullible and believe somebody when he utters a threat of deadly force. "I believe! I believe!"

Texas law says that's all I gotta do: Believe. The time-tested rational and prudent person belief thing. The legal caveat here is one other factor than belief: I gotta consider innocent third parties. IOW, don't shoot one of them. You have no defense for a Bad Shoot of that third party; that's built into the deal.

I really doubt that such an idea as, "It never crossed my mind that he might try to do something to me.” would ever enter my mind. I assume that if he could shoot me, he would shoot me. That's a given; he's claimed to have a gun.

It's not Batmanitis, either. It's called "Duty", what any mature adult owes to his society and the people around him. You don't let Bad People do Bad Things. Sorry, folks. No Kitty Genoveses* around me; I figured that out some 42 years ago.

Art

* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitty_Genovese

Ezekiel
August 22, 2006, 09:07 PM
The thing about me is that I'm real gullible and believe somebody when he utters a threat of deadly force.

Personally, I demand evidence of ability.

It's not Batmanitis, either. It's called "Duty"

Only if you get lucky.

You don't let Bad People do Bad Things.

Especially when there is every reason to believe that you can/will make things worse. :banghead:

This was lucky. I'm quite surprised that folks would defend such as common and desired practice.

Does KFC think so? (Merely a query.)

'Card
August 22, 2006, 09:21 PM
The second-guessing in this thread is exquisite.

Bad guy is in jail. No one was hurt. That means the good guy handled it well, and no amount of armchair quarterbacking is going to change that.

Without being there and seeing the situation, trying to judge the good guy after the fact is just stroking your own ego.

lacoochee
August 22, 2006, 09:41 PM
I was across the street at the mall in the parking lot talking to friends when a truck crashed through the front of Luby's Cafe. When people approached the truck from inside the restaurant to help the driver he opened fire and did not stop until everyone had run away or was shot dead.

Two years later I was in Naples, Italy at the USO downtown and I went downstairs to the basement level to get a coke after playing pinball for an hour or so. One of my shipmates did not, she kept playing, a car exploded and destroyed the ground floor of the USO and killed her.

How does this relate to the KFC story? Just this, you have no idea what might happen 2 seconds from now, it's unknowable, one moment you might be eating a salad and the next fighting for your life and if you hesitate you will die.

Sherlock had no idea what this guy was going to do, he said he was armed and willing to kill, Sherlock had the drop on him, the only rational thing at that point would have been to draw and order the guy down or to kill him (remember the perpetrator had already decided to be a killer for the money in a cash register).

Now a lot of you are saying you would have done differently, had the goblin drawn his self-reported gun and pointed at you what then? Draw and try to kill him like it's the OK Corral? I am not that good and I am willing to bet none of y'all are either.

So Sherlock is a hero, he took a stand, he made a good decision based on the information he had at that moment, he faced the dragon and he is still alive.

progunner1957
August 22, 2006, 09:58 PM
What you likely had was a lone crackhead, carrying something he could defensibly argue was not a weapon, trying to find something to eat and loose cash for his next rock. Basically, a street urchin. Wrong, Ezekiel.

This scumbag is no "street urchin." He is a 40 year old adult, easily 250 lbs. or larger. He is big enough to play defense for the Indianapolis Colts. I know because I saw this thug on the Indianapolis news on television.

And by the way, you do sound like a Bradyite.:barf:
Give the loser his ~$35, some chicken, and get him the Hell out of there: much safer then John Q. playing John Wayne.Classic "sheeple" mentality. Don't resist, submit, obey, beg for mercy. Let the police handle it - it's their job, not yours.

Too often, those who submit and beg for mercy end up dead as a result. Submitting does not guarantee your safety or survival.

If it is the job of the police, where were they when the crime was in progress?? "The police can't be everywhere all the time." My point exactly. That's why those who have CCWs carry guns.
It's not Batmanitis, either. It's called "Duty", what any mature adult owes to his society and the people around him. You don't let Bad People do Bad Things. Sorry, folks. No Kitty Genoveses* around me; I figured that out some 42 years ago.+10,000 Art!

It's called doing the right thing, defending the defenseless, being a man rather than a sheeple, living with integrity, acting with honor, being able to look at yourself in the mirror, helping your fellow man/woman, making your city a better and safer place - take your pick, Ezekiel - they all apply.

Even the police in Indianapolis recognized this - in a TV interview, a uniformed Indianapolis police officer said of the man who captured the thug, "The man is a hero."

Even the police recognize that they cannot be everywhere at all times to prevent crime; police officers who do not have a God complex appreciate the assistance of the legally armed citizen.

Low-Sci
August 23, 2006, 01:54 AM
I also tend to assume that people are pretty honest. If I hear them say "give me the money before I shoot you," I'm going to go right ahead and believe him. I have no reason to think he's lying, do I?

Besides. Sitting quietly in the back of KFC while some lunatic kills the cashier with a screwdriver and walks out with a handfull of money would bother me. Maybe some folks are ok with that on their conscience, but I'd have a hard time living with myself after that.

And think of this. If you're waiting for proof of ability, that will most likely come when the bad guy blows that cashier's head open. Good work. At least you're sure, how does it feel?

Guns are very capable when it comes to violence. They're also very effective as used here, in a preventative manner. This was unequivocally a good action on Sherlock's part.

If you wouldn't have intervened, then for the employee's sake, I'm very glad you weren't there.

tanksoldier
August 23, 2006, 03:46 AM
If you wait until you see a gun, somebody will be dead (maybe you) before you can draw your gun.

The suspect threatened to shoot, then made a move for a gun. The fact that he's stupid enough to act like he has a gun when he does not is his problem, not mine. If you act like you've got a gun, I'll assume that you do. I would have shot him without warning, and been completely justified in doing so.

Also, many store clerks have been killed AFTER complying with all of a robber's demands. Once someone threatens deadly force, verbally or thru his actions, they become a target in my book.

And yes, been there done that got the t-shirt.

I cannot abide people who would stand by and allow such things to happen when they have the means to prevent it. Worse than sheeple in my book, at least the unarmed bystander has an excuse.

As I've said before, any who would not act to protect others because they're "not a cop" please post your pic and those of your family, so I'll know who to ignore when they're in trouble.

This is not a guy I want whipping a gun out in the middle of a robbery when a weapon is not seen. Give the loser his ~$35, some chicken, and get him the Hell out of there: much safer then John Q. playing John Wayne.

superhornet
August 23, 2006, 08:48 AM
Seems like a lot of the "I don't want to get involved" mentality floating around. Sure, stand by and let the perp get the money and leave ?? How many more places would he rob, how many people would he hurt ?? Regardless of getting a few nuggets or a few dollars, it is breaking the law and putting innocent people at risk......Bang, bang--is my order ready yet.....????

roo_ster
August 23, 2006, 11:39 AM
Asking for cash & chicken gratis is not the problem and has been used to obfuscate the real problem: the credible/incredible nature of a threat of violence if the cash/chicken were not forthcoming.

If the threat was credible, the CCW-er's response is morally and legally justifiable. Given what we know from the article, the crook did his best to present a credible threat.

progunner1957
August 23, 2006, 10:01 PM
If the threat was credible, the CCW-er's response is morally and legally justifiable. Given what we know from the article, the crook did his best to present a credible threat.
+1.

The thug in question threatened to shoot the person running the register. To what end? To enrich their life? Noooooooo - to injure/maim/cripple kill them.

With that threat in play, the CCW holder was 100% justified in his actions, no matter what kind of leftist/liberal/pacifist/socialist spin someone may try to apply to the situation.

As Jeff Cooper once said, "The only proper resolution to an armed robbery is a dead robber on the floor.":D

Ezekiel
August 23, 2006, 11:01 PM
To what end? To enrich their life? Noooooooo - to injure/maim/cripple kill them.

Wrong. They did so to obtain chicken and some loose cash.

As Jeff Cooper once said, "The only proper resolution to an armed robbery is a dead robber on the floor."

That is radical rhetoric of this highest order and gets people killed. Any quote or belief that involves the word "only" is dumb.

With that threat in play, the CCW holder was 100% justified in his actions

And any belief in "100% justified" shows smallness of character and thought.

Low-Sci
August 23, 2006, 11:09 PM
So when we find ourselves armed in public, and currently a criminal is threatening to kill someone over money, its best that we not intervene at all? Because all Sherlock did was draw, and the direct result of his draw was a defusal of the situation. Where's the fault in this action, Ezekiel? Why should we not even draw to prevent probable harm to another innocent person?

And if we're not to draw, what are we supposed to do?

lacoochee
August 23, 2006, 11:35 PM
The robber had made up his mind to be a felon, to threaten to kill to get what he wanted, it does not matter what or how much he wanted. To be more graphic, had he grabbed the girl hauled her into the freezer and raped her at gun point, at what point do you think Sherlock should have intervened? After the bad guy is zipping up his pants and walking out? Should he have turned around and run, presenting his back to a self professed armed felon?

Sherlock had no idea if the guy would follow through with his threat or not, he had to assume the worst.

I am sure these folks cooperated as well....


3 Sought After Worker Killed For No Apparent Reason

Orange County, FL -- Authorities in Orange County, Fla., are searching for three men who stormed into a business, robbed everyone inside, then shot and killed an employee for no apparent reason, according to a Local 6 News report.

Investigators said the men entered the Cash Register Auto Insurance building located on South Orange Blossom Trail just after 6 p.m. Friday and demanded money.

Police said as the men left the building, they opened fire and hit Anthony Ortiz, 22.

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