conceal permits=gun registration


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Panthera Tigris
August 21, 2006, 08:06 PM
Interesting article here on one person's opinion about what's really going on with conceal carry permits.

http://www.jpfo.org/ccwlie.htm

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CTD99
August 21, 2006, 08:19 PM
Like you said it is one person's opinion.

I think anytime you can educate people as to how & when the use of deadly force is applicable you are doing a good thing. CCP do just that, education is the key, and training is good thing.

I'm not sure where this guys paranoia comes from but it is deep seeded. You can have 20 pistols and 1 CCP. They would not know you have the other pistols. In today's world buying a firearm has all kinds of Gov. paperwork with it anyway. The Gov. knows you have it, they don't know if you sell it, and to whom.

IMHO it is this kind of right wing thinking that gives gun owners a bad name.

Kentak
August 21, 2006, 08:26 PM
In Ohio, one does not need, at any time, to specify which, or *any* gun is owned by a CCL holder. The CCL covers any, or multiple, guns that one may carry without specifying. For all they know, I don't even have a gun.

K

Liberal Gun Nut
August 21, 2006, 08:39 PM
The JPFO doesn't take a nuanced position on much of anything.

Your guns are already registered to some extent. Are NICS records really destroyed? Maybe. Bound books are kept for a long long time. Credit card purchase records stick around for a long time. Many states also have their own forms that stick around.

CCW is the best thing there is for gun rights. Yes, Vermont-style carry might be better but CCW is a good intermediate step.


Destroy your CCP, advise your local, county, state law enforcement that you do not have a CCP. Make sure that your information is off any and all state data bases.

...

If you must carry, be very careful, with the search rules that are in place by the courts, you will be taking a chance.


Ok, if you are willing to stand up for your beliefs to the extent that you are willing to risk all the consequences, that's cool, but for most of us, we balance all this with all the other things we have going on in our lives and we decide to make some compromises here and there. Doing all the paperwork to get a cCW is a compromise I can live with.

calzoom
August 21, 2006, 08:52 PM
The argument of CCW being a form of back door registration has been going on since CCW permits began to be issued.

I'm NOT. But if I was the feds and wanted to know who had what in this country I would follow these gun boards as every one is always asking and telling what's in their homes, cars, under the beds, in the safes, closets ,up their Kazoo and every other place. Keep a lil tally and a list. Then go pick up what I needed.:eek:

To my way of thinking...The 2nd A. gives us the right to carry guns anywhere, everywhere, anytime. But I guess we have to have a way to sort out the nut cases from packing.

As everyone knows they aren't going to pay any attention to one law or 20000 laws!

Therefore they have to load up the folks who will follow their stupid laws.:cuss:

coyote_jr
August 21, 2006, 09:21 PM
Just move to Vermont.

Old Fuff
August 21, 2006, 09:55 PM
In some states (New York for example) a CCW license holder's guns are listed on the permit - but then they have gun registration anyway. :cuss:

In Arizona, where I live, a CCW permit does not list any guns, and during the CCW process none of the paperwork lists any firearms whatsoever. And for the record, gun registration is illegal in Arizona. :)

Obviously there is no back-door registration here. :cool:

telomerase
August 21, 2006, 10:00 PM
In Arizona, where I live, a CCW permit does not list any guns, and during the CCW process none of the paperwork lists any firearms whatsoever.

Good... but it's kind of obvious that someone who pays for a "permit" to bear arms probably has some arms. The Vermont or NH system is better (and notice their crime rates!)

Hkmp5sd
August 21, 2006, 10:24 PM
Can you say 4473? Ever buy a gun, parts or accessories with a credit card? Online? Ever attend a shooting school? Go to shooting ranges? Subscribe to gun magazines? Have a hunting license? Post in online forums? Write letters to politicians? Letters to the editor? A member of the NRA or other gun groups? Does your friends or relatives know you have firearms? Have any NFA items or a C&R license?

If the government wants to know if you own guns, nothing will stop them from finding out. Time to worry about something important.

Autolycus
August 21, 2006, 10:33 PM
Calzoom the thinking about the nutcases is all nice and good until they decide your a nutcase. Who decides that someone is a nutcase?

In all seriousness...

a nutcase with a gun will get sorted out sooner than later.

Frog48
August 21, 2006, 10:34 PM
In Arizona, where I live, a CCW permit does not list any guns, and during the CCW process none of the paperwork lists any firearms whatsoever. And for the record, gun registration is illegal in Arizona.

I'm not familiar with Arizona laws, but isnt open carry legal without a permit? If so, why does the state bother with CCW permits?

Calzoom the thinking about the nutcases is all nice and good until they decide your a nutcase. Who decides that someone is a nutcase?

This is true. The 2nd Amendment specifies that everyone should be allowed to bear arms. It could even be argued that felons are within their 2A rights, since the disqualification of felons is not enumerated. Now is that a good idea? Probably not... but who are we to second guess the intent of the founding fathers?

Zundfolge
August 22, 2006, 12:02 AM
This is a perfect example of a quote that was brought up in another thread (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=216965);

"By insisting that liberty is an all-or-nothing proposition, civil libertarians make it more likely that we will eventually end up with nothing."

G-d bless JPFO for their tireless work for RKBA, but they sometimes tend to get a little too "tin foil hatty".

Then again, to use another quote; "Just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean they aren't out to get you."



Oh well, I still contend that right to carry laws (even if they require a piece of paper from the state) do more to expand RKBA and gun ownership (which in turn expands those interested in preserving RKBA) then they do to endanger our gun rights.

rock jock
August 22, 2006, 12:10 AM
The 2nd Amendment specifies that everyone should be allowed to bear arms.I've never seen anything that indicates the FF believed the 2A extended to criminals and the mentally unstable. In fact, the way that the criminal element is referred to makes me think they would have supported the felon prohibition, at least for violent acts.

cbsbyte
August 22, 2006, 12:19 AM
I don't believe in most states that issue CCW licenses there is a need to list CCW guns on the license. Though NY does have hanguns listed on the LTC. In truth CCW licenses are a form of a state gun owner registration. The state knows everyone that has the license will more than likley have more firearms and know people that do.
In Mass we need a Firearm ID license to own a long gun, and a License to Carry permit to own (not carry) a handgun. If one wants to carry a handgun, they would need a LTC Class "A" with an special clause added by the LEO, giving permission to carry for SD. The clause is hard to obtain in many towns/cities, because the LEO refuses to allow CCW. In addition in Massachusetts we already have a quasi form of gun registration through mandatory registration, through the State Police, of all firearms bought, transfered and sold by Mass residents. Even guns bought out of state or brought into the state by a new resident have to be registured through the SP.

Monkeyleg
August 22, 2006, 01:06 AM
Years and years ago, my oldest brother in PA got a carry permit.

I was outraged. I told him that it was his absolute Second Amendment right to carry a pistol, and the laws be damned.

Well, when it came time for me to need to begin carrying, I found out that doing so under WI law is 100% illegal. No exceptions, and lots of legal hassles if you do.

And there's the choice: call the law "crazy," and have your day in court; or fight to repeal the crazy law.

Like many keyboard commando's, I decided that it would be less painful to go the legislative route.

Car Knocker
August 22, 2006, 01:11 AM
If a CCW license is a form of gun registration, so is a hunting license to a degree.

I'm not familiar with Arizona laws, but isnt open carry legal without a permit? If so, why does the state bother with CCW permits?

Not everyone is in agreement that open carry is the way to go at all times and under all circumstances.

Lupinus
August 22, 2006, 01:31 AM
I'm not familiar with Arizona laws, but isnt open carry legal without a permit? If so, why does the state bother with CCW permits?
Tactical reasons. If you know someone has a gun before attacking them you can plan for it, esspecialy if there are two attackers if you know the target has a gun and where it isn't to hard to keep him from being able to draw it.

armoredman
August 22, 2006, 10:45 AM
The law states the weapon or holster must be wholly or partially visible, so the bottom half of the rig hanging out from under your vest/jacket/t-shirt is legal, as long as a cop can reasonably expect to identify it as a holster.
The only exception is fanny packs, even though designed as holsters, are NOT open carry.
CCW is AZ is not weapon specific, and if you happen to own legal NFA, you can CCW them, too....

Old Fuff
August 22, 2006, 11:07 AM
Yes, you can open carry in Arizona, and out-of-state residents can also get permits... :cool:

But there are times and places where open carry may not be a good idea, and being discreet does have it's advantages. It used to be that open carry was the only way to carry legally. The present situation is much better.

pharmer
August 22, 2006, 11:49 AM
Big deal, so I'm on a list. If the gov't goes all out attack on the American people, you think the "people " will win? They know who does what and has what from multiple sources. Tighten up the tinfoil and buy more ammo. Joe

Correia
August 22, 2006, 12:33 PM
If you aren't on a list, then you aren't trying hard enough.

I absolutely can't stand this philosophy.

I can't get a CCW, because then I'll be on a list! I can't buy a gun in a store and fill out a 4473 because then I'll be on a list! I can't get an NFA item because then I'll be on a list! I can't write my congressman because then I'll be on a list! I can't join a politically active organization because then I'll be on a list!

Damn it. I want the list to be so long, with millions and millions of names that the confiscators are going to take one long hard look at it and say, there is just no way. I want our numbers to be legion. I want thirty million nationwide CCW holders and ten million people to own suppresors.

I'm on the To Do list. And I'm proud of it.

Zundfolge
August 22, 2006, 12:53 PM
That was beautiful...

Well its official ... I owe Larry a beer :evil:

Frog48
August 22, 2006, 12:54 PM
I've never seen anything that indicates the FF believed the 2A extended to criminals and the mentally unstable. In fact, the way that the criminal element is referred to makes me think they would have supported the felon prohibition, at least for violent acts.

I agree, I dont like the idea of felons having firearms. But my point was that since they were never specifically excluded by the Constitution, laws forbidding their ownership of guns could be argued as unconstitutional.

Think of it this way... we dont deny felons or mentally unstable folks other Constitutional protections, so why the 2A?

I'm sort of playing the "Devil's Advocate" here, just for the sake of discussion. :D

lance22
August 22, 2006, 01:06 PM
I'm going to differ.

I can be found to be a gun owner in a hundred different ways. For starters, I have my name on numerous purchase records, as do all of you. Second, my real name is plastered all over the internet in conjunction with pro 2A causes. Third, I have a firearm safety certificate from way back. Fourth, I'm a certified Range Officer. Does anything think for a moment that government employee would not be able to figure out that I am a gun owner?

And, I have a MN permit to carry. No guns were registered during the process, nor does my state have a mechanism for such. My permit to carry doesn't give them any information that they don't already have. They can already infer that I own guns.

Now, what they don't know is, they don't know exactly what I have, or if I still have what I had, and other details. They want to show up and tear my house apart they'll find some stuff to bring back to their communist leaders. But, I am quite sure that when they leave, the major pieces of my SHTF collection will remain at my disposal.

geekWithA.45
August 22, 2006, 03:51 PM
I'm on the To Do list. And I'm proud of it.


I'm on The Enemy's To Do List. Why Aren't You?



If you get through your life without having made any enemies, you've done it all wrong.

Low-Sci
August 22, 2006, 04:21 PM
Its a theory, but I don't think enough people have or would ever get CCPs to really make the theory effective.

But I agree, there should be as many people on those lists as possible. Politicians should have to check their lists and see the armed masses staring right back telling them "whatever you were thinking, no."

Jorg Nysgerrig
August 22, 2006, 04:22 PM
But if I was the feds and wanted to know who had what in this country I would follow these gun boards as every one is always asking and telling.

Really? That seems like a lot of work.

1. Constantly monitor gun boards, spending hundreds of hours a week looking for people saying they own guns (be careful to filter out 16 year old mall ninjas and airsofters).
2. Record all the usernames and the guns they claim to own. Hope that they aren't making it up and haven't sold any guns since you made you list.
3. Get a warrant for the hosting provider to get the mysql databases.
4. Match up the posts with the IP addresses on the dates of the suspicious posts.
5. Get another warrant (or would it be a supoena duces tecum, you lawyer types?) the ISP to give you the real name of the ip address that matches up at the time of the post, assuming they have it in their logs still because you've been secretly compiling this list for years. Hopefully, there weren't any proxy servers, then you'd need to subpoena the proxy logs too.
6. Then actually go after all of these people.

Or you could do what is more likely:

1. Get the 4473 forms.
or
1. Get the list of customers from whatever brick and mortar/online shop.
or
1. Get the NRA's member list.
or
1. Gun registration lists
or
1. CFP lists.
or
1. Any number of much easier ways to produce a list.
2. Go after these people.

Regardless, I think Correia is right. Be on a list and be proud.

Politicians should have to check their lists and see the armed masses staring right back telling them "whatever you were thinking, no."

More importantly, they should be seeing "Apparently many of my constituents are strong supporters of the 2nd, I should be too."

FrogClan
August 22, 2006, 06:13 PM
I'm not familiar with Arizona laws, but isnt open carry legal without a permit? If so, why does the state bother with CCW permits?

Yes, open carry is legal and that is how I usually carry. Others (above) have pointed out the reasons one might choose to carry concealed. I do it most often when I leave my rural surrounds and go to the "big city" where people act goofy when they see someone packing.

As for the reason the state "bothers with CCW permits":
- a source of revenue
- insures legal concealed carriers are familiar with laws regarding the use of deadly force (no such check in place on other gun toters)
- insures they know where guns (and big knives, etc) can NOT be carried legally

Art Eatman
August 22, 2006, 08:26 PM
Estimates are that 40% of US homes contain at least one firearm. That's around 50 million homes. Lotsa these homes have more than just one shooter.

Firearms sales in the US are running about 4.8 million or so per year, and have been for over ten years--per BATFE records. Could be, that's more homes? More new gun-buyers?

Government folks say it's impossible to deal with 11 million illegal border-jumping criminals. If they can't deal with 11 million, how are they going to be able to deal with way beyond 50 million?

1. I'm bound to be on a list--or lists--after all these years of gun-stuff.

2. So what?

:), Art

Autolycus
August 22, 2006, 09:31 PM
Me too.

I dont think that they will try something so blatant. I believe they will do it in increments.

crebralfix
August 22, 2006, 09:51 PM
Ummm...the idea of "registration" is not to know which guns are owned by a person. The point of registration is to know WHO has guns of ANY sort. It's far easier to implement a confiscation program if government agents know exactly where to go.

kengrubb
August 22, 2006, 10:54 PM
GOA used to make this argument--and probably still does from time to time.

The gun controllers didn't get everything all at once, and we aren't going to win everything back all at once.

At the start of 1987, there were 10 Right To Carry states. Today there are 40. That's a net gain of 30 states in 19 years. Alaska is the only state to "go Vermont", but it only happened after 10 years, IIRC, of Shall Issue concealed carry.

We're all familiar with the "how to cook a frog" analogy. Well, it works the same in reverse. Go into California, Maryland or New York City talking about passing Vermont Style Carry legislation, and you might as well be an advocate for the Klan.

CCW registration aside, there are a myriad of ways in which gun controllers can find out who has the guns--not the least of which is trolling online forums. :neener:

Finally, I never heard about any of the authorities down 'Nawlins during Katrina using the states CCW database to confiscate guns, but it happened nevertheless. :fire:

Dave Workman
August 23, 2006, 03:37 PM
It strikes me as beyond absurd to suggest that people knowingly violate firearms laws and carry without a license/permit if required, when it is widely known that to be convicted for doing so will result in the loss of your gun and perhaps your gun rights. Maybe even a fine and jail time.

This idea has come up before and always sounds like the ranting of an anti-gun troll, trying to sucker increasing numbers of gun owners into jeopardizing their rights. And it must be just pure coincidence, but every time I see somebody suggesting this sort of thing, it is always a suggestion that someone else do it; sort of like Bin Laden talking a room full of idiots into strapping on belt bombs, then sitting back in his cave safely, waiting to see what happens next. Heck, after all, he's not going to do it himself...he just want's someone else to do it.

Perhaps the system we have right now is not the best of all situations, but it's what we have and until we can change it, PLAY BY THE RULES! Every time a good guy runs afoul of the law, it reflects on the rest of us, and makes it just that much harder to work with lawmakers at all levels, and convince the general populace that gun people aren't a bunch of half-cocked twerps.

If someone wants to drink the cool aid, leave guns out of the mix.

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