[Gus Dddysgrl]

Ok so I have no idea about knives. Just to let you know from the beginning.

What are the pros and cons to having a knife that folds?
What are the pros and cons to having a knife that doesn't fold?

Anything that will let me know how you chose a knife (other then looks) to get or to carry.

Gus

[griz]

Advantages of fixed blades are they are somewhat stronger because there is no pivot, and they are easier to clean, which matters more than you would think if you are a hunter.

The big advantage of a folder is it is safer to carry.

Which one to chose depends on what you want to do with it. Most people have a folder for a pocket knife and go to a fixed blade for harder work. These are not hard and fast rules. My advise is to ignore the cheap stuff and go for a decent quality knife. It doesn't have to be outrageously expensive, just stay away from the junk.

[hso]

Fixed is faster to put into action. No lock to depend on to use safely. Generally preferable from a using/safety standpoint.

There are possible problems with local laws for carry of a fixed (or folding) blade, but you can find the answers to those my looking at findlaw or alllaw.

[Skunkabilly]

I have two fixed blades, one for cooking and one for tacticality...I carry neither because it's a felony to carry a concealed fixed blade in CA and I'm not big into open carry unless I'm at the range or a barbecue.

Folders are more socially acceptable here, so that's why I'm into them...I think it depends largely on your legal climate, carry a fixed blade if you can, but folders are more fun to collect, and good for backup.

[Bruz]

1. Decide what you want the knife or knives to do...hunting, skining, cooking, self defense, opening envelopes, collecting.

2. Check out your local laws if it is to be carried.

3. Buy nothing that you do not know what steel it is made from, get a good quality steel. The design of the blade will depend on what you need it for. Buy quality.

4. If the knife is for self defense get trained by a professional, like Brownie.

5. Don't plan on buying just one...they are more adictive than chocolates with cream fillings.

:rolleyes:

[GW]

I choose to simplify the advantages
A folder can be carried in your pocket A fixed blade can be as big as you are able and willing to carry.
I always have a folder on me. Its unobtrusive and with practice you can deploy a folder as fast as any fixed blade
Faster if you have an Emerson Commander
Blade design? I personally avoid the hooked blades and anything with too fine of a point. Fime points are fragile and I might need to pry something. (I know folks are shuddering, but hey! its a tool and tools are meant to be used)
Other than the above limitations I choose a blade from a maker that I trust (Benchmade, Emerson, CRKT or Gerber) that has a blade design I think is cool.

[Gus Dddysgrl]

haha

Um I want at least one to carry and one to have, to "collect" (oh and 1 is a minimum.)

The uses will range. Self defense with the carry and one for on our annual canoe trip. We get a lot of rattlesnakes there. So a knife for killing, skinning, and whatever is one I plan on getting. It impresses some of the guys and totally grosses out the girls.

I'm not into chocolates with cream fillings, just give me straight dark chocolate. :neener:

Gus

[Skunkabilly]

It impresses some of the guys and totally grosses out the girls.

Unless your guy friends are wusses like some of the guys I know... :rolleyes:

Worm: "Yeah, but guns are made for killing people...with knives you have to--"
Emerson Commander: TTHHHWWWAAACKKKK!!!

[Phantom Warrior]

(oh and 1 is a minimum.)

Indeed. Knives are as bad as guns, just a little bit cheaper (which means it's easier to rationalize buying one). For everyday carry I'd recommend getting a folding knife. As mentioned, it is illegal in some states to carry a fixed blade knife and folders are just more comfortable for day to day carry. A couple suggestions:

Smith & Wesson SWAT: An excellent entry-level folder. Under $40 for most models. Smith & Wesson is a gun company originally (duh) but they make good knives too. Check some out here (http://store.knifecenter.com/pgi-CustomListProducts?Smith%20&%20Wesson%20S.W.A.T.%20Knives,2,16,=,sm,&,60,=,swat)

Benchmade: One of the best mass-production folding knives you can get. More expensive than a SWAT but worth it. Look around here (http://www.knifecenter.com/knifecenter/bnchmd/) at the different models. I personall recommend the Stryker, AFCK, Ares, and McHenry Williams lines.

Spyderco: Another very good qualtiy knife. I don't have a lot of experience with them. My one hangup with Spyderco is that (unlike Smith & Wesson and Benchmade) there knives are designed to be opened one-handed, but not closed one handed. Being able to get the knife out and cut something one handed is more important, but being able to put it away one handed is also really nice. Look at them here (http://www.knifecenter.com/knifecenter/spyderc/)

Other possibilities: Kershaw, Gerber, SOG, others www.knifecenter.com is an excellent source of information and is also one of the cheapest places I know of to get knives. All the links above are from knifecenter. I'd encourage you to look around and see what grabs your fancy. Also, if at all possible, find a place locally that sells these knives and look at them firsthand. I have ordered knives off the Internet before and sometimes they aren't quite what you expect. Knifecenter is good about returns, but best if you don't have to deal with that.

For camping, killing, skinning, grossing people out I would recommend a fixed blade. They are bigger and better equipped for those jobs. A few suggestions:

Ka-Bar: A classic. $40-50 for an excellent knife. Lots of models here (http://www.knifecenter.com/knifecenter/kbar/index.html) I'd recommend the U.S.M.C. fighting knives.

SOG: Usually expensive, but superb quality. I have a Government Agent that I'm very pleased with. One hang up, SOG has gone to Kydex sheaths (more on that below). If you wander around Ebay you can find older models with nylon sheaths. That's my recommendation. Check out their knives here (http://www.knifecenter.com/knifecenter/sog/)

Benchmade Nimravus: Nice mid-sized fixed blade. All the good things I said about Benchmade. Over $100, so it might not be a good choice for a first knife. Here (http://store.knifecenter.com/pgi-CustomListProducts?Benchmade%20Nimravus%20Fixed%20Blades,2,16,=,bm,&,60,=,nimravus)

And now, Kydex sheaths. This (http://www.knifecenter.com/knifecenter/kbar/usmc3.html) is a good example of what they look like. I hate them with a passion. I'll state that up front. My reasons... One, because of their design (two piece of Kydex riveted together) they have to be very wide to have room for the rivets along the outside. Two, the Kydex is very tough on the blades. I had Kydex sheath for a while. After a very short time scratch marks were showing up on the blade of my knife just from taking it out and putting it away. In point of fact, it probably doesn't wreck the knife. But it looks bad. I don't like them. If you don't mind they are tough, durable sheaths and some people like them. I'm not one of those people.
That's my thoughts on knives. Get a good one, you won't regret it. If you have questions feel free to post them.

[Phantom Warrior]

The big advantage of a folder is it is safer to carry.

Mmmmm. Safer in what regard? Cuz I've been using a fixed blade (my own) since I was about 12 for camping and never injured myself. :scrutiny: I have, however, cut myself more than once with my folders over the years. Rule number one: Don't put a slender piece of tubing against your index finger as a backstop and think you can "stop when you get through it." :D

I'm not into chocolates with cream fillings, just give me straight dark chocolate

You and my mother would get along very nicely. O wait, don't tell your dad I want to introduce you to my parents. He might not take it right... :evil:

[GW]

Phantom Warrior, I think you got something caught in your kydex sheath like a piece of grit or sand. Kydex is not harder than steel, by itself it couldn't scratch steel, but because it is formed to a specific knife shape, it will be a snug fit. If foreign matter gets in the sheath, its going to gouge the blade whenever you sheath and unsheath your knife.
Kydex is a lot better for storing knives tha leather it won't retain moisture to rust your blade and it won't leach tanning acids etc onto your blade like leather will.

[griz]

Well I guess I should have said that a folder is more convenient to carry in a pocket, but what I meant is a folder that stays folded will never do any damage. A fixed blade, even carried in a pack or bag, can stab through a flimsy sheath if pressure is applied in the wrong way. Usually this is no problem as a quality sheath is not flimsy, but it can happen.

[Gus Dddysgrl]

Ok so yeah those pics got me drooling.

Unless your guy friends are wusses like some of the guys I know...

Skunk: yeah that's why I said "some".

Phantom Warrior: parents already? :uhoh: I didn't even meet you yet. ;) :D :neener:

Gus

[Ol' Badger]

just give me straight dark chocolate

I wont say it. Nope. Not me....:evil:

[Drjones]

Ok so I have no idea about knives. Just to let you know from the beginning. Hey, ya gotta start somewhere! Also see www.bladeforums.com for a wealth of info.

What are the pros and cons to having a knife that folds?
What are the pros and cons to having a knife that doesn't fold? It has been said that a folding knife is just a fixed blade that has already been broken.

Except for Striders. ;)

Seriously, many good points have already been raised. Keep in mind though; I've read stories of folders coming open on their own. Some even require periodic maintenance, such as tightening of screws and stuff.

As far as pros and cons, well, the list is huge. Just a few off the top of my head:

-Folders are generally more compact & easier to carry. A lot more options for carrying them.

-Folders are generally weaker than fixed, as I said.

Anything that will let me know how you chose a knife (other then looks) to get or to carry. As with anything, you get what you pay for.

This has already been discussed at length in another thread (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=20545) where I said that I only want the best of everything, which IMO means Striders. (Or Busse for fixed blades in addition to Striders.)

Actually, there's a thread going on right now (http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=255425) at bladeforums titled, "What's as tough as Strider Folders."

The general consensus is; if you want a knife as tough as a Strider, buy a Strider. :)

Here are some interesting knives you should look at: http://www.hideawayknife.com/main.php

They are small, concealable, non-folding knives that seem to me to be excellent last-ditch defensive weapons. (That is what they were designed as, actually.)

They also seem like they would be quite useful for everyday stuff too.

Anyhow, if you don't want to spend $300 or so on a Strider folder/fixed blade, just stay with the "big" brands and you should be fine.

Examples are; benchmade, spyderco, cold steel.

Hope this helps!

[Penforhire]

Like Skunk said above, my local laws made it a no-brainer to go with a folder (and keep it under, I think 3", for LA county). Your local laws will certainly vary. Same deal for policies at work. My company's anti-violence policy only allows 3" and under on-the-job.

[Skunkabilly]

Penforhire, interesting name, are you a journalist or something? Do they also have an anti-libel policy where only mechanical pencils with .5mm or less are allowed on the job?? :banghead:

LA county has a 3" and under rule??? :o

[Phantom Warrior]

Phantom Warrior: parents already? I didn't even meet you yet.

Since I mentioned my mom and there's always the thing about the mother-in-law and...yeah. Lame joke. Just joking, of course. I have a serious case of what my 9th grade electronics teacher called "terminal SA" or "terminal smart ***." He recognized it all the way back then. A perceptive man.

Regarding Kydex, Bigchoad may have been right. Don't let me turn you off without looking into it first. I didn't notice anything in the sheath, but I didn't examine it carefully. I still think they are wider than is comfortable.

Another good suggestion for fixed blades is Buck. My dad got one as a gift when he was a boy and he's still using it 30 years later. I used one for a while when I was younger. They are darn good knives.

[Jim March]

In some areas, the laws favor folders. California is an extreme case: you can legally conceal any size folding knife, so long as it's not a switchblade or bali-song and so long as it's concealed in the fully closed position.

So I carry a 5.45" "megafolder" class piece in one of my own fully tuckable IWB rigs.

:cool:

[Penforhire]

Skunk, I'm an engineering manager for a multi-national electronics manufacturing company but I've done some trade journal articles and patents so I like to think I'm paid to write ... and the pen is mightier than the sword... and "penforhire" is cool enough but never taken by others so I get to use it for every forum and e-mail server.

I read that LA county law (3" folder blade length) off a website link, I think that was found here:

http://www.ninehundred.com/~equalccw/knifelaw.html

[Skunkabilly]

and the pen is mightier than the sword...

Not in a swordfight ;)

Cool name though.

[brownie0486]

I've always had this to say about that

"The pen is mightier than the sword, but the sword guarantees ownership of the pen" :cool:

Brownie

[Admiral Thrawn]

Unless your guy friends are wusses like some of the guys I know...

lol! Sounds awfully familiar, Skunk... :rolleyes:

[Feanaro]

If you want to carry concealed then a folder is normally good. If you want to kill someone real good then get a fixed blade.

[brownie0486]

How do you kill someone " real good"?:rolleyes:

Brownie

[hso]

I suppose it would be in such a manner that it would keep you from spending years in a federal or state honeymoon suite? :uhoh: Uh, wait a minute, that ain't very likely is it? You might defend yourself, you might drive an attacker off, you might stop the attack, you might even kill them in the process, but if you "kill them real good" you and your new bride Bubba is gonna have a lot of time to explore the *****(edited to remove too disturbing thought).

[Phantom Warrior]

...and the pen is mightier than the sword

OHH OOHHHH OOHHHH!!!! Perfect quote. If any of you have read "The Mouse That Roared" you'll recognize this:

"The pen is mightier than the sword, but the sword speaks louder at any given time."

It's been a long time since I read that book, but I think I got it right. Personally, I'm quite content with my unmighty sword. Bring your pen and we'll settle this discussion... hehehe

[Tamara]

Heh. I had completely forgotten that...

"The pen is mightier than the sword, but the sword speaks louder and stronger at any given moment."

also

"'Yes' can be turned into 'No', and vice versa, if a sufficient quantity of words are applied to the matter."

:D

[Drjones]

Ooh! Ooh!!

Can I play???

I'll bring this little thing of mine: http://www.albionarmorers.com/swords/deltin/dt5154.htm


:evil:

Not sure how it'll fare against a Mont Blanc, but I'll take my chances. ;) :neener:

[Penforhire]

I believe I'll bet on one of James Bond's explosive rocket projectile pens in, I believe, Never Say Never Again, against any sword you had in mind...

[Phantom Warrior]

And the last thing that Roger Fenwick learned at Oxford: In any argument the victor is always right.

[mete]

A 6-7" fixed blade has long been considered minimum for a combat knife. How many that carry for defense have that ? Just as important for defense is training How many have that ?

[Tamara]

Thank you! I was totally tortured by not being able to recall the third maxim. :)

[Gray_Fallen]

Folding knives break in the middle. Thats how I Look at it, simply. Yes, they have a locking mechanism, but that can still fail. I've had it happen, and if I can pick them out among the ones I've earned more honestly, I'd show you the scars to prove it. ;)
There are ways to use a folder in defense that minimize the potential for failure, but still there are problems - a folder takes a lot of fine motor skill to get open, and fine motor skill is something that will desert you under high stress.
That is why I like a device like the Wave found on knives from Emerson ( www.emersonknives.com ) because it catches and pulls the blade open as you draw it - removing, hopefully, the need for having to engage your thumb to manipulate it open further.

That said - a fixed blade is better. You can access and present a fixed blade faster, with less hassle, and they are stronger.
As was pointed out, they are easy to clean which is a plus if you plan to use it not just for defense.

Mete said "A 6-7" fixed blade has long been considered minimum for a combat knife. How many that carry for defense have that ? Just as important for defense is training How many have that ?"
I have a couple issues with that - first of all, he is correct that a COMBAT knife should be a 6" to 7" or 8" blade - but a combat knife and a fighting knife/personal defense knife are two VERY different things. A combat knife is a strong utility tool, that is going to be carried on a belt, with a lot of other big gear, by people who are supposed to have weapons. Its not the kind of knife someone carries for defense.
Now a fighting knife can be had in those sizes, but a fighting knife in those sizes is most likely only going to be an option for soldiers as well.
So we are looking at defensive knives - and a good defensive knife can have a 4 to five inch blade. Heck, the defensive fixed blade I carry has a 3.5" blade that I think is just about perfect.

I would suggest a small fixed blade, a neck knife, either an Emerson La Griffe (http://www.donrearic.com/emersonlagriffe.html) or a FrontSight Knives "HideAway" (http://www.hideawayknife.com/main.php) which is probably the better choice, as it offers more options, and is custom fitted to each user - and still has a reasonable price, especially for the materials used and the craftsmen involved witht he project. And, its designed by a woman too - if that matters.
And a medium to large fixed blade - something like the Camillus Cuda CQB-II or perhaps the regular CQB-I (the larger of the two) http://www.agrussell.com/camillus/ca-cqb1.html They come with kydex sheaths capable of either IWB or belt carry via tek-lok. The Spyderco Perrin Bowie (http://www.1sks.com/store/spyderco-fred-perrin.html) might be another idea. Also, look at the stuff Cold Steel ( www.coldsteel.com ) offers.
And one or two good folders - Emerson, Spyderco, Cold Steel, Benchmade and Kershaw all make some really nice folders of all shapes and sizes. A web search, or a search of knife dealers, will show you the available models from each.

There are advantages and dis-advantages to both - with folders the disadvantages are potential failure, and difficulty on the draw - advantages are that they can be carried easily, without much fuss or muss, and that they are handy because of that. Fixed blades are a little more work, but not much, to carry, and they do come out faster/more reliably - but they are not legal in some areas.
I'm lucky, int hat I can carry a fixed blade - so I am rarely without one, even a small one. But I am almost never without a folder either. (As well as a few non-lethal tools for the defensive step between un-armed and deadly force, i.e. knives.)

[Penforhire]

I also think it is Brownie who often points this out but, a defensive knife is there to deter or delay the agressor, not to take him out. Shorter blades are just fine for this purpose. IMHO, a defensive blade is NOT the same as a "combat" knife.

I consider mine to just be a folding attitude-adjuster.

[Gray_Fallen]

I also think it is Brownie who often points this out but, a defensive knife is there to deter or delay the agressor, not to take him out

I think Brownie's philosophy is admirable and worth serious consideration - but at the same time, I'd rather not undermine my own defensive training by not being capable of a lethal force solution if forced to it.
That said - you could take someone apart with an Emerson La Griffe, and determination - shorter knives arent that much of a sacrifice.

[Doc]

so where do I get a strider?

[Drjones]

www.striderknives.com

See www.usualsuspect.net and www.bladeforums.com for many dealers who have them in stock.

Order direct from Strider and you're looking at about a year wait, minimum, I believe. :what:

Also: www.tadgear.com

I got mine from cself@bellsouth.net

Nice guy.

[brownie0486]

Gentlemen and ladies:

I appreciate the kind comments from all here on the theories I expound relative self defense with a knife.

The idea is to become proficient enough to defend yourself adequately without going to the dark side of the blade where you run amok with the law in the aftermath.

The dark side is known and practiced to proficiency, then you can deviate from the dark side and learn to control the subject [ still hurts em so they'll likly desist further aggression but probably won't kill them ]. The control techniques still injure in the same fashion but the targets of the blade show restraint in ones actions and your actions can be articulated well enough for a jury to comprehend your thought process while defending [ intent ].

It's easy to live on the dark side and end life when one knows how with any weapon.

It is the ones who have mastered the blade who then choose to live on one side or the other. One is no less proficient at stopping an aggressor than the other but one shows the aggression and the other shows compassion. Very inportant in the aftermath of an assault and your subsequent actions.

The longer an aggressor persists the more you can bring out the dark side to stop him [ level of force ]. Knife attacks/defense against a knife attack are fluid events. Please remember that we, as law abiding citizens, have a right to defend ourselves.

There are times when the dark side would be the only course of action to survive [ one example might be multiple attackers armed with knives [ more than one person ].

In that scenario the first one to reach in would recieve something that would put him down quickly [ different targets ]so you could move onto the next and hopefully not have to re-engage that one again.

What I really dislike are those who profess using the dark/nasty side immediately upon a single aggressor. Though there will be times you may have to revert to the dark side for one reason or another I don't think ones advice to always go that route is appropriate nor necessary most of the time. It's there if need be but then I would be able to articulate my position and actions as to why I escalated to another level.

If you can do that you come off to the jury as reasonable. To say to them that you killed him because thats how you were trained [ in the dark side ] will only cause more grief than most can afford to deal with financially or the time spent with "bubba" after they lock you up.

Train to live, do what you must do to survive an encounter, but keep in mind that your actions will be scrutinized and judged by others who are not familiar with your blade defense reasoning and will have to be educated as to why you did what you did and that it was reasonable and prudent.

Brownie

[Drjones]

Very interesting, brownie.

You have clearly spent a lot of time thinking this through.

I disagree to some extent on a few points, and I'll offer my views:

- Dead men don't talk. Dead men don't sue for civil damages. (Though of course the family probably will in any case, but I think your chances are better without him sitting there acting all hurt & drawing sympathy...)

- On the street, you may have a point about not trying immediately to kill an attacker (under certain circumstances at least) but I believe it is different in the home. IMO, anyone who breaks into your home while you are in it is generally bent on quite evil ends. Again, dead men don't talk, and they also can't get back up. What if he has a buddy you don't know about? Then while you are dealing with him, the guy you only injured gets back up, only he's PISSED this time. Not good. Especially if you have family in the home. IMO, men with families to defend should shoot to kill, shoot so that their families may definitely remain unscathed. That is something I would never leave to chance.

JMHO....

[JShirley]

using the dark/nasty side

Respectfully, there is no "dark side". You have a toolbox of options to use, traveling up the force continuum as time and ability allows.

Everyone knows- or SHOULD know, that it is much easier to inflict serious damage on an adversary than stop them with minimal damage. First priority is going home to your family safely. If you can avoid, that's the best. If you can disengage, super. If you are forced to fight or lay down and die, don't hold back, if your life is on the line.

"That's how I was trained"?! What the hell? The force used was because I was in fear for my life.

John

[Drjones]

Ditto Jshirley.

My view: If your life is being threatened, you are totally morally justified (in most cases legally justified?) in using greater force.

Example:

Some guy pulls a knife on you. You are not required by law or morals to use equal or lesser force to stop the threat. (i.e.; if you pull a knife = equal force.)

So you pull your gun and stop the threat. Either he runs on sight of the gun, or he advances and kills himself, courtesy of you. If anything, its suicide.

[brownie0486]

I didn't realize this thread was talking about in the home.

My impression was it happened on the street in public.

It would be different in the home. I wouldn't be using a knife in the home to begin with.


Although keep in mind some states have stated you must retreat if you have an exit [ thats the law ], no matter how dumb it is. I know of one state that rescinded that law when the governors changed next election years ago.

Brownie

[Doc]

in public, most venues require civilians to retreat ANY AND ALL ATTACKS.
any attack may only be met with eaqual or lesser force

home is different, very few venues require retreat within the home (so called "Castle Doctrine")

IMO, men with families to defend should shoot to kill, shoot so that their families may definitely remain unscathed. That is something I would never leave to chance.




a jury of 12 like minded internet gun board members would surely disagree, however, one only shoots to stop the threat, Period. Anything more is EXCESSIVE force, by definition.

Q: Why did you shoot him?

A: He was attacking me and would not stop. I was in fear for my life and could not repel his attack with anything less.

Q: But why did you shoot him ___ times?

WRONG A: I was trying to kill him. OR I wanted to kill him. OR He was gonna kill me. OR It was self defense. OR I didn't mean to, it was an accident, the gun just went off.

CORRECT A: All I wanted him to do was stop. I begged him to stop; I gave him my _____ (everything I had) and he wouldn't stop. He had a weapon and I feared for my life.

Q: But why did you shoot him ___ times?

I have no idea how many times I shot him, I just wanted him to stop and go away and leave me alone, that's what I kept telling him.

Verbal compliance is very important. You are going to talk to a lot more people than you will ever shoot.

[brownie0486]

Thanks Doc

Brownie

[Doc]

I only wish I had some skill with a knife.

I can barely sharpen them, and can count 16 stitches in my hands just in the past few years since I began carrying a "tactical" knife everyday...