What sidearm does the U.S. Military carry


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ArkansasFatboy
August 24, 2006, 12:31 AM
Just curious as to what the standard side arm of the U.S. military is these days. Is it still the .45 or is it a different caliber

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ugaarguy
August 24, 2006, 12:38 AM
US Forces adopted the Beretta 92, designated M9, in 9mm NATO (9x19) in 1983. It is still standard issue, but you will also find SIGs in 9mm, HKs in 45 ACP, and 1911s in 45 ACP in use with various units. Under the new Dept. of Homeland Security contract the USCG is now issued the SIG P226 and P229 in 40 S&W. I think those are the correct model numbers on the SIGs, but its definetly SIG pistols in 40 S&W that DHS just bought. So there ya go.

RustyShackelford
August 24, 2006, 01:03 AM
The US Armed Forces carry different pistols;

The standard issue is the Beretta M-9/9mm, a 92-F model pistol.
Military aircrews, pilots, criminal investigations/MI may use the SIGarms M-11/P-228 9mm pistol. Some spec ops units still use the 1911a1 .45acp. The USSOCCOM(US Special Operations Command) also issues the HK model 23 .45acp pistol. USSOCCOM also started using a smaller HK .45acp pistol for limited use. US Navy SEALs use the SIGarms P-226 9mm and other handguns for some SEAL teams/missions.

RS

Pevey
August 24, 2006, 07:35 AM
Homeland Security is switching over to the HK P2000. Customs still has quite a few Glocks out there but they will all be gone soon. Border Patrol is in process of switching to the HK. Didn't know Coast Guard was using a different gun, at least we're all going to the 40.

Of course, I understand that (fill in your caliber) is much better and your (name your make of gun) is a much better choise. I don't pick em I just carry em.

ugaarguy
August 24, 2006, 02:22 PM
Pevey, I'm now thoroughly confused. I did a search on the subject and have found sources that site either HK or SIG as the DHS contract winner. Did both companies get part of the contract?
http://www.shootingtimes.com/handgun_reviews/sig070606/
http://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/issues/2004/Dec/SecurityBeat.htm

buzz_knox
August 24, 2006, 02:29 PM
Both companies won the contract, and the agency can choose from either manufacturer want they want to purchase. The contract was less about particular guns and more about telling the agencies "you're authorized to buy from either one." Sig got a head start because HK was real slow on delivering weapons.

Alan Fud
August 24, 2006, 09:46 PM
the new Dept. of Homeland Security contract the USCG is now issued the SIG P226 and P229 in 40 S&W.Are they allowed to use hollowpoints?

Ohen Cepel
August 24, 2006, 09:50 PM
HP's are against the Geneva Convention which is why the military doesn't use them.

I guess it's up the the agency as to what they put in them.

buzz_knox
August 24, 2006, 10:09 PM
Hollowpoints are allowed whenever a unit is not engaging uniformed combatants. The military has authorized hollowpoints when units have engaged terrorists (usually in actions conducted by special operations personnel).

Law enforcement agencies are under no such restrictions unless imposed by internal regulation.

Alan Fud
August 24, 2006, 10:10 PM
So it's not okay to use HP against our nation's enemies but it is okay to do so against our own citizens? That makes sense. :rolleyes:

isp2605
August 24, 2006, 10:12 PM
HP's are against the Geneva Convention which is why the military doesn't use them.

Nope. The GC concerned the treatment of prisoners. The Hague Accords dealt with instruments of war which caused undue pain, suffering, and hardship, including things like machine guns, submarines, land mines, etc. The US did not sign the HA.
Buzz is correct.

ugaarguy
August 24, 2006, 11:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ugaarguy
the new Dept. of Homeland Security contract the USCG is now issued the SIG P226 and P229 in 40 S&W.

Are they allowed to use hollowpoints?

A while back someone posted a few of the USCG public documents here in regards to the new pistols. IIRC they're keeping two stocks of ammo; ball ammo for their military mission and JHPs for their law enforcement mission under DHS.

Alan Fud
August 24, 2006, 11:24 PM
... they're keeping two stocks of ammo; ball ammo for their military mission and JHPs for their law enforcement mission under DHS ... So if they are in the middle of a LE assignment under DHS and encounter a military situation, they have to change ammo? :rolleyes: Why am I not surprised?

MountainBear
August 25, 2006, 12:25 AM
Heard an interesting rumor that Ruger had recently got a contract to deliver a small amount of pistols to the US Army, possibly Armored divisions?

possum
August 25, 2006, 12:59 AM
m9 which is a berretta 92
m11 which is a sig (cid, MI, and a few others)
both in 9mm

That is the regular army, i don't know about all those hi-speed guys!

HP's are against the Geneva Convention which is why the military doesn't use them

this is a belief that many people have but it is not true, like it was explained earlier.

psyopspec
August 25, 2006, 01:35 AM
Heard an interesting rumor that Ruger had recently got a contract to deliver a small amount of pistols to the US Army, possibly Armored divisions?

Tell your gunstore owner to correlate his facts beyond bubba the special naval operator rescue h.a.l.o seal vet.

Frog48
August 25, 2006, 01:45 AM
Tell your gunstore owner to correlate his facts beyond bubba the special naval operator rescue h.a.l.o seal vet.

There is no need for you to respond to someone's question like a jacka$$. You might want to check your facts before you flame someone...

U.S. Army Awards Sturm, Ruger & Co., Inc. Contract for 5,000 Pistols
December 23, 2004
Sturm, Ruger & Company, Inc. (NYSE: RGR), the nation’s largest firearms manufacturer, is proud to announce that it has been awarded a contract for 5,000 9mm pistols by the U.S. Army Tank-automotive and Armaments Command, Rock Island Arsenal, IL. The pistols to be supplied are Ruger KP95D models. The pistols incorporate a stainless steel slide and a custom polymer composite frame.

“We are honored to be part of the nation’s defense by furnishing the Army with Ruger P95 pistols,” said Sturm, Ruger President Stephen L. Sanetti. “As there are no longer any U.S. Government small arms factories, our country must rely on the private firearms manufacturing sector to provide arms for the common defense. Sturm, Ruger’s P95 pistols have developed a legendary reputation for strength, reliability, and value during the last ten years, and we are proud to have won the U.S. Army’s competitive bid with these fine firearms.”

“Our late founder, Bill Ruger, who began his firearms industry career 65 years ago designing small arms for the U.S. Government, would have been pleased,” Sanetti concluded.

The Ruger pistols to be supplied under this contract will be manufactured in the company’s Prescott, Arizona manufacturing facility.

http://www.ruger.com/Firearms/N-Firearms_News.html

Edmond
August 25, 2006, 02:16 AM
I didn't think Infantry were allowed to carry sidearms?

Are Officers allowed to carry sidearms?

If my memory serves me well, which is doesn't most of the time, I think the Hague Accords said something along the lines of not using HP's against recognized nations armies. I think the key thing was recognized. A terror organization, though they might have an army, is not recognized as a nation and therefore, the HA's do not apply. Am I correct?

pete f
August 25, 2006, 02:32 AM
I believe rugers contract was for pistols to equip either afghani or iraqi PD's with.

There are a huge amount of contracts being issued these days for handguns and long guns with which to equip either of the above or to help with equipping other nations we consider client states. I know that DPMS just got another contract to provide M-4 and A2's to someone through the state dept, not a huge contract but something like 3 or 4 thousand rifles.

Ruger, S&W, Walther, SIG, Glock, HK and Kimber have all gotten contracts either big or small lately as the nation building phases have kicked in.

What this means for most of us, is that there is also a lot of used trade in handguns going to be showing up on the retail shelves pretty soon.

Frog48
August 25, 2006, 03:39 AM
I didn't think Infantry were allowed to carry sidearms?

Are Officers allowed to carry sidearms?

Yes, officers carry sidearms, including the infantry.

In fact, a high school buddy of mine is an Army 2LT, and is a platoon leader in the 25th Infantry Division. West Point grad, Infantry Officer, Ranger qual'ed, Airborne qual'ed. He's deploying to Iraq by the end of August.

RustyShackelford
August 25, 2006, 04:51 AM
I saw news reports that several Iraqi LE/military units got Glock 9mm contracts(17/19/etc).

RS

;)

possum
August 25, 2006, 07:48 AM
I saw many iraqi police during my tour that crried glock 19's.

Seven High
August 25, 2006, 08:39 AM
I have not seen any mention of any branch of service refurbishing any of the pistols that are being removed from service. What is happening to the pistols being taken out of service? It would be a lot more fiscally responsibile to refurbish then reissue them!

HorseSoldier
August 25, 2006, 10:56 AM
Heard an interesting rumor that Ruger had recently got a contract to deliver a small amount of pistols to the US Army, possibly Armored divisions?

Like other posters noted, the Ruger purchase was for the use of Iraqi security forces we're training/advising/etc.

I saw news reports that several Iraqi LE/military units got Glock 9mm contracts(17/19/etc).

A lot of them are getting Glocks. I know down in Basra the British issued a bunch of G-17s to the Iraqi cops they were training/advising/etc.

I didn't think Infantry were allowed to carry sidearms?

There's no rule saying that infantrymen are not allowed to carry an issue sidearm. Basis of issue, historically, was quite low for infantry guys, though. That's been changing over the last few years, and lots more handguns are on the hips of conventional guys, infantrymen included.

Infantry, and everyone else (including special operations personnel), are restricted from carrying privately owned sidearms. People sometimes get away with that, but the consequences of getting caught can be severe, if the powers that be want to push the issue.

Technosavant
August 25, 2006, 11:31 AM
One Ruger contract was for the Army Tank and Automotive Corps (see the Feb. 2, 2005 release)
http://www.ruger.com/Firearms/N-Firearms_News_Archive.html#


S&W has a contract to provide Sigma pistols to the Afghani National Police
http://ir.smith-wesson.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=90977&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=817997&highlight=

halvey
August 25, 2006, 11:44 AM
Saw a picture of a friend who's in Army Special Forces with a Beretta sticking out of his vest. I assume it was a M9. The Army didn't issue Beretta's in .40 or .45 did they?

buzz_knox
August 25, 2006, 12:19 PM
All Berettas in US military service are M9 Berettas in 9mm. The only .40s are in use by USCG and the only .45s are 1911s in service with certain units in the USMC and SOCOM, and the HK Mark 23, also in use by some units in SOCOM on an as needed basis. There's been discussion of the SEALs adopting the HK Compact Tactical .45, but I'm not sure what the status of that is.

halvey
August 25, 2006, 01:24 PM
Thanks Buzz, that's what I thought.

Also, the new American Rifleman Sept. 06 page 18 says the military is ordering up to 70,000 more M9's and 14 MILLION more magazines. So they think it'll be around a bit longer:)

My friend in SF, didn't seem to think badly of the M9's.

Correia
August 25, 2006, 01:42 PM
Pevey, I work with a lot of DHS guys. There are a whole lot more Sigs in use than HKs, by far.

Edmond
August 25, 2006, 01:44 PM
Infantry, and everyone else (including special operations personnel), are restricted from carrying privately owned sidearms. People sometimes get away with that, but the consequences of getting caught can be severe, if the powers that be want to push the issue.

Okay, that's where I got confused at, between the POS and issued sidearms.

Are the reasons why POS's not allowed because of liability or something along those lines?

HorseSoldier
August 25, 2006, 01:53 PM
My friend in SF, didn't seem to think badly of the M9's.


He'd be in a minority. The M9 is pretty healthily despised within USASOC due to persistent and recurring locking block failures.

possum
August 25, 2006, 06:19 PM
Hey guys we better be careful talking about what sidearms American soliders carry into battle that is against opsec!:neener:

stillamarine
August 25, 2006, 06:38 PM
that info is commonly found on the internet and other sources so it's not much of an opsec issue

possum
August 25, 2006, 06:46 PM
stillamarine,
I know that is a running joke from another thread! hince the smiley!

Hey and welcome to THR.

psyopspec
August 25, 2006, 06:58 PM
Mountainbear, my apologies if I offended you or your gun shop owner.

Grant, you gotta understand there's been an endless amount of unsubstantiated rumor lately regarding pistols and the U.S. Military. Not only do they come up, but week after week they seem to repeat themselves. A signifcant portion of these rumors are nothing but conjecture, and I believe the burden of proof to be on the claimant rather than the reading audience. It seems in this case, the rumor was true. The proverbial blind squirrel still finds a nut now and again.

Thanks for shedding some real light on the topic, and you're right, I was a jackass (I'm too poor at this time to afford the dollar signs at the end).

stillamarine
August 25, 2006, 09:50 PM
stillamarine,
I know that is a running joke from another thread! hince the smiley!

Hey and welcome to THR.

I just found that thread :D

MAGNUMMAN
August 26, 2006, 03:16 AM
Is Bono Arkansas on Mars?

pablo45
August 26, 2006, 07:53 PM
Well actually dhs coast guard not only carries the sig p226 but they also carry the beretta and the hk uspc in a .40. The army is now carrying a beretta m9 soon to be changed. The marine corps is still with the beretta but my buddy who is recon said they gave him a kimber desert warrior last tour. The navy pilots are now carrying hk pdw (personal defense weapon). The ffdo however carry the hk uspc lem (law enforcement modification trigger) in a .40. Border patrol still with glocks but slowly murging with the hk as well. Thank god no one is using the xd's. I would hate to have my life on the line with some one carrying one of those gun's. Better off with a high point.

stillamarine
August 26, 2006, 08:47 PM
Border Patrol never had glocks, they had the Beretta 96D.

USMC Recon was carrying modified 1911s called the MEUSOC and Berettas as of 03 but could be changing who knows.

HorseSoldier
August 26, 2006, 09:08 PM
USMC Recon was carrying modified 1911s called the MEUSOC and Berettas as of 03 but could be changing who knows.

The 85 guys in the Det One USMC Force Recon/SOCOM intergration test bed unit were issued Kimbers built to what would be packaged as the Warrior (not the Desert Warrior) for the civilian market. I suspect this was done because a COTS solution to the pistol issue was quicker than having more MEUSOC pistols built.

The army is now carrying a beretta m9 soon to be changed.

Nope. Big Army dropped out of the new pistol program. The contract only applies to USASOC now.

The navy pilots are now carrying hk pdw (personal defense weapon).

Hadn't heard that. Actually heard the USMC trialled the P90 and MP7 for their pilots (not USN) and rejected them. Or are you referring to the MP5 PDW format?

Thank god no one is using the xd's.

I'd never say never. Particularly because there has been at least one military purchase of XDs for use by US personnel. Kind of like some USP45CTs have been purchased, and supposedly Glock 19s and Walther P-99s as well. Basis of issue for pistols is way up these days, and in the absence of enough Berettas to go around, various other solutions have been found, either because units could not wait for Berettas, or did not want them if they were available (and had the clout to get away with that).

slicknickns
August 26, 2006, 11:11 PM
Found this link while searcing for Glock 37 at google.

http://www.defensereview.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=463

It says the Marines ordered 10,000 of them.

isp2605
August 26, 2006, 11:16 PM
It says the Marines ordered 10,000 of them.
Talk about the story that never dies.
You didn't read very closely. Read the links at the bottom. It also says "subsequently retracted on May 6, 2004." That's an old story which was bogus when first printed. Somebody was pulling the author's leg and he didn't realize he was being jerked around. After he printed the article he had to eat crow and retract it.
Even with the retraction clearly at the top of the article and links to the retraction at the bottom somebody is constantly bringing this article up as "proof". Read closer.

slicknickns
August 26, 2006, 11:34 PM
dammit. I'm such a fool. I really do i think that was idiotic.

Blacklabman
August 26, 2006, 11:59 PM
He'd be in a minority. The M9 is pretty healthily despised within USASOC due to persistent and recurring locking block failures.


------For my MOS USMC-1812.the M9 was the issued weapon.
We qualified twice a year with it, and once a year with the M16A2.
I was discharged in 95. Pretty much everyone despised the M9, for its laundry list of broken parts, problems and the 9mm round.--------

KC&97TA
August 28, 2006, 02:28 AM
I still don't know what all the crying is over the M9, I put on average about 18k rounds though them a year, I've only had one die on me, proper operator maintence and knowledge of what the internals should look like is key. Also haveing an Armorrer that is aware that these guns get used and need to be LTI/PFI'd on a routine basis is a good step to keep all the weapons up and running.

The MEUSOC .45's get almost 100k rounds ran through them, before, durring and through out build ups, you don't think they go down. There are few weapons that will handle what "we" put them through.

The Kimber's purchased by DET-1 are currently with 4th Platoon, 1st Force or what used to be 1st Force.

The Iraqi's had G17's and there are several of them in the hands of deployed US personel, they just get passed around from rotation to rotation.

I'm not up on what the Army carries, but I've never seen a Ruger or Glock issued.

.45 AUTO
December 21, 2006, 01:42 AM
Beretta M9 9mm, Sig P228 9mm, H&K SOCOM suppressed .45 for Navy SEALS, Updated M1911-A1 .45 for Marines, Sig P229R DAK .40 S&W for U.S. Coast Guard, and Glock 17 9mm In Desert Storm anyway.

Ops Officer
December 21, 2006, 07:43 AM
SIG 229 replaced the SIG 228 for issue to DoD and military special agents and others who carry concealed.

1911 guy
December 21, 2006, 09:31 AM
Yeah, well I was a super secret green hat airborn water mammal and I carried a Noisy Cricket. :eek:

Actually, I keep wondering what would have been the result if the .mil had put the money into the 1911 platform they are currently spending on parts for the M-9. I know it didn't happen because of the rush to conform to a NATO approved (european developed) round, but I still do wonder.

The M-9 wasn't a horrible pistol, but it was always in the back of my mind that it could lock up on me at any given moment. I had one do that because of a locking block failure on the qual range. Never pointed well for me, either. And what's up with barrels being a consumeable item?

Oh well. I guess I'm too much of a .45 fan to let it go. I'm going to pet, I mean clean, my 1911's now.

SolaScriptura139
December 21, 2006, 09:40 AM
Thank god no one is using the xd's.

What's wrong with the XD's? If they moved up to .45, they'd have 14 rounds, which I would definately take over 15-17 rounds of 9mm.

billybobjoe
January 13, 2008, 11:16 PM
As far as the millitary using hardball, FMJ, 9mm rounds. Has anyone shot any millitary ammo? I'd say it's loaded hot. It'll do way more damage to a coon than jacketed hollow points. I think a standard jacketed hollow point doesn't really kill a coon faster than a .22. I'm talking about shooting the coon point blank in a trap. It's how I test handgun calibers. I've got an idea of what works best. I shot a couple of coons with millitary 9mm ammo. The stuff that the millitary suposedly rejects because it's 30fps off spec. It's a real step up from civilian 9mm ammo. Coons--DEAD. Personally, I wouldn't jump up and down that I had a Beretta 92 with the millitary's ammo instead of a .45. Anyone who says the Beretta is a wimpy gun is a fool.

Javelin
January 13, 2008, 11:22 PM
General Issue is an M9 (and thats a Berreta 9mm) > The parts are not interchangible with a normal Berreta 92 but close.

:)

billybobjoe
January 13, 2008, 11:33 PM
Then when you shoot a bunch of old combines, look at what your .45 goes through and what your 9mm goes through, it seems that the 9mm has the .45 beat. From my flesh and blood observations of coon damage, penetration of various sheet metal and engine parts, I'm happy with a 9mm. Of course, I will provide a disclaimer that my observations are not completely scientific and COONS don't shoot back.

biscuitninja
January 13, 2008, 11:35 PM
A few buddies in Homeland Security use the H&K in .40. I tease them with my USPc because they seem to like it a tad more. I know how how the two really shoot differently though. I like the P2000 feel, but I just can't get the DAO to work for me... :(

-bix

starbuck
January 14, 2008, 11:44 AM
General Issue is an M9 (and thats a Berreta 9mm) > The parts are not interchangible with a normal Berreta 92 but close.

It's the exact same gun, just with different markings. I own both, and they're fully interchangeable with each other.

guitararmy
January 14, 2008, 08:28 PM
Any truth to the rumor that the US Military is going to award a large contract to Highpoint for their sidearm?

CWL
January 14, 2008, 08:47 PM
Any truth to the rumor that the US Military is going to award a large contract to Highpoint for their sidearm?

Nah, the real lowdown is that the US Armed Forces is going back to cap n' ball Colt SAA pistols so that our Operators can hide behind thick clouds of black powder smoke...

strangelittleman
January 14, 2008, 09:27 PM
I dunno, I've heard the Nambu 8mm has just beat the Hi-point in the latest SOCOM trials.....

wingnut
January 15, 2008, 02:02 AM
Why do so many of the armed forces use 9mm? Only a few seem to use .40, and fewer use .45.

-WingNut

Trebor
January 15, 2008, 02:06 AM
One Ruger contract was for the Army Tank and Automotive Corps (see the Feb. 2, 2005 release)
http://www.ruger.com/Firearms/N-Fire..._Archive.html#

It's not "Army Tank and Automotive Corps," it's "Tank-automotive and Armaments Command."

Although they have since changed the name to the Army's TACOM Life Cycle Management Command (LCMC).

TACOM (by whatever name) is a procuring agency (among other duties). Just because TACOM bought pistols, doesn't mean they are intended for U.S. Armor units or even *any* U.S. unit. TACOM does the buying for pistols intended to arm our allies as well, such as the Ruger's that went to Iraqi or Afghani security forces.

Here's the LCMC website:

http://www.tacom.army.mil/main/index.html

JP from Phoenix
January 15, 2008, 02:48 AM
when i wasn in the navy I carried a beretta 92fs, quite like the one i own now. that one didn't have any plastic parts like mine does though

golden
January 15, 2008, 03:16 AM
The BERETTA 96D Brigadier is either gone or will be soon with the BORDER PATROL and CUSTOMS & BORDER PROTECTION. CBP is only issuing the H&K P2000. The GLOCK 17 is still in service with former CUSTOMS Officers who have not transitioned over to the .40 caliber round. All the personel who were with the former I&NS have switched over to the .40 caliber with the H&K replacing the BERETTA.

Other branches of HOMELAND SECURITY have gone to the SIG 229 DAK.


Jim

Josh Aston
January 15, 2008, 03:42 AM
Why do so many of the armed forces use 9mm? Only a few seem to use .40, and fewer use .45.

-WingNut

None of the Armed Forces carry .40s. The Coast Guard is NOT a part of the Armed Forces when it carries the .40, its a part of the Department of Homeland Security. When the Coast Guard is deployed as part of the Department of Defense they carry the M9. Not very many people in the military use the .45 because its not standard issue. The 9mm is standard issue.

Me personally, I'm glad we went to the 9mm, I'd rather carry it than the old Model 10's. Higher velocity and energy, more rounds in the gun, quicker reloads, more rounds on the belt, don't really see how it was such a big deal.

Maybe the Army got a raw deal, but the only people I really see complaining about the 9mm is the people on gun boards.

RustyShackelford
January 15, 2008, 12:25 PM
While the .45acp still has a strong following in US military spec ops circles. The 9mmNATO round is the standard for most US service members in the M-9. I've heard rumors and read gun factory items about new DoD service trials but most plans were either delayed or ended due to budget/politics. :rolleyes:
Some firearm sources have stated that the .40S&W is a better choice but I would pull for the .357sig. It's service use in many US law enforcement agencies like the US Secret Service and Texas Dept of Public Safety show it can work well with large groups.
More than likely the 9mmNATO/M-9 will last a few more years in US DoD service, until a new service pistol is awarded a contract and the DoD gets the $$$. HK would be my bet the compact USP made for the USSOCOM(Special Operations Command) looks very nice, :D. The SIGsauer model compact P-220 .45acp is a good design but not very ambi, :(.
Time will tell...
Rusty S

ugaarguy
January 15, 2008, 01:48 PM
None of the Armed Forces carry .40s. The Coast Guard is NOT a part of the Armed Forces when it carries the .40, its a part of the Department of Homeland Security. When the Coast Guard is deployed as part of the Department of Defense they carry the M9. Not very many people in the military use the .45 because its not standard issue. The 9mm is standard issue.
Really? They're keeping both pistols? Or do individuals get armed with Navy M9s when they deploy under their DOD mission?
Is this document not accurate - http://www.uscg.mil/reserve/msg05/coast503_05.htm - in regards to the USCG keeping both ball & JHP ammo for their respective DHS and DOD missions?

HorseSoldier
January 15, 2008, 03:22 PM
As far as the millitary using hardball, FMJ, 9mm rounds. Has anyone shot any millitary ammo? I'd say it's loaded hot.

M882 is loaded to something around +P specs.

Is this document not accurate - http://www.uscg.mil/reserve/msg05/coast503_05.htm - in regards to the USCG keeping both ball & JHP ammo for their respective DHS and DOD missions?

Didn't read the document, but that makes perfect sense. MPs do the same sort of thing -- carry JHP ammo for CONUS law enforcement missions, but are required to carry FMJ ammo in combat zones.

While the .45acp still has a strong following in US military spec ops circles.

Most personnel who are assigned to SOF units and have a pistol assigned to them are using 9mm. Some units have either reverted to the 1911 or switched to something (in 9mm or 45) besides the M9 due to reliability and durability shortcomings with the M9 and/or a preference for the bigger round . . . but most of the pistol complaints I see and hear are problems with the Beretta specifically, not with 9mm as a service round.

I've heard rumors and read gun factory items about new DoD service trials but most plans were either delayed or ended due to budget/politics.

SOCOM was going to buy a new pistol, and then Big Army decided to jump on the program also. Big Army input and complications first delayed and then killed the program. Big Army decided to stick with the M9, SOCOM is continuing with a program to replace the M9 though the exact replacement is still being sorted out.

None of the Armed Forces carry .40s.

I'd go with the "never say never" on that one. I can think of at least one unit that is carrying 40S&W chambered handguns these days.

Firepower!
January 17, 2008, 05:20 AM
Beretta 92FS or as they call it M9; and HK USP or as it is called P8. Both in 9mm.

Jack2427
January 17, 2008, 11:38 PM
I really have to weigh in here. When in the U.S. Army as a pilot, I was issued a S&W M10 38 special with a shoulder holster. Of course that was 1963. The arms room had a bunch of wheelguns both Smith & Colt. Some pilots would carry the 45 if they could cage one. The theory of the wheelgun was that it could be operated with one hand-injuries in ejections and crashes were common(still are), and the revolver fired the 38 cal flares we had then. The rest of the Army (except CID, and later female MPs) were issued the 45.
Then came the 9mm issue. The real reason we adopted the 9mm and the Beretta design was political, not that it is not a good gun, I have carried it and used it and it worked fine for me.
After WWII we adopted the 7.62 for our M14, and then we stuffed it down the throat of all the other NATO nations. Then less than 10 years after that we went to the M16 and the teeny tiny bullet.
When it came time to get new handguns(and we did need new guns by then), we went to the NATO 9MM just to keep our allies quiet. Then we adopted the Beretta after it did pass the tests, along with a couple of other pistols. Made the Italians feel good maybe?
So in the mid 80s we started changing over. I was in the USCG by that time, and we still had a lot of 45s, as a matter of fact, we had to borrow M9s from USAR units to qualify with because we had not been issued enough M9s as of yet.
Now we have a military with the M9, not a bad weapon, but one does have to take care of it just like any other weapon.
I did a number of contracts as LE/Security trainer in various places after retirement, and sometimnes we had to carry the M9(if it was a US funded job), or sometimes some other weapons. Most of the time the weapons we trained the other guys with were provided by the US government. They were invariably Glocks (17s& 19s), or in a couple of cases, Rugers, always in 9mm. Glocks and Rugers were supplied because they were cheap and easy to train with. Likewise the most common long arm we trained folks with was the AK 47-same reasons.
The USCG today operates primarily as an LE agency, hence the HP ammo. If they were to be chopped to the Navy for some reason, I expect that they would be issued M9s by the Navy, or use ball ammo in 40 cal.
The Hague Accords are very interesting documents. They arose out of the Hague Conferences of 1899 and 1907, they do not specify ammo, just in very vague terms state that the ammo may not be designed for the specific purpose of inflicting more grevious injury than necessary. It is interesting to note that our armed forces can use BT HP ammo in sniper weapons because the HP is there for ballistic reasons and not to increase the injury to the target.
Our military buys lots and lots of weapons that are never intended for our troops, but are to equip "friendly" military or LE/Security agancies in other countries. They also buy thousands of weapons for the DOD Police and civilian guards who provide security and police services to military installations INCONUS, and some other places.
I seriously doubt that a general change in handgun from the M9 is in the forseeable future, we just have too much money invested in weapons, parts, training of armorers and the like.
I would carry an M9 today and not feel undergunned, as long as I knew the weapon had been properly cared for and serviced. Actually more often than not I carry a S&W 940 that fires guess what round?

berettaman
January 18, 2008, 03:10 AM
NEWS RELEASE
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

Editorial Contact:
Karen Lutto
Lutto PR (press office)

Matteo Recanatini, Marketing Manager
LE/DoD Division
Beretta USA Corporation



UNITED STATES ARMY LAUNCHES NEW YEAR WITH PURCHASE
OF 25,403 U.S. MADE BERETTA M9 PISTOLS

ACCOKEEK, MD (January 17, 2008) — Beretta has just announced that it has been awarded a multi-year contract by the U.S. Army to deliver M9 pistols to servicemen and women as part of the U.S. Government commitment to ensure the operational safety and readiness of U.S. Armed Services worldwide.


The contract is for 25,403 M9 pistols with deliveries starting in June 2008 and continuing until February 2010. The U.S. Army also reserves the right to purchase additional M9 pistols as needed to meet their needs. All of these M9 pistols will continue to be manufactured at the Beretta U.S.A. facility located in Accokeek, Maryland.


“Beretta is always honored to assist the U.S. Armed Forces in defending our country,” stated Jeff Reh, Vice-General Manager for Beretta U.S.A. Corp. "The Beretta M9 pistol remains the most reliable and well-tested handgun in the U.S. military inventory, with tests resulting in an average of only one malfunction every 20,500 rounds fired. U.S. Government witnessed testing at our factory has confirmed this remarkable reliability.” Mr. Reh added that, “Beretta U.S.A. Corp. has supplied the Beretta M9 pistol as the standard sidearm for the U.S. Armed Forces since 1985 and continues to make investments in manufacturing capability, R&D and product development to serve the needs of the U.S. Military and Homeland Defense community. “


"We are proud to be able to provide the U.S. Armed Forces with a reliable, robust sidearm that will perform when needed to defend the lives of our servicemen and women”, said Elio J. Oliva, Vice-President of Sales and Marketing for Law Enforcement and DoD at Beretta U.S.A. Corp. “We understand that the M9 is not a primary weapon system and that it is often used a weapon of last resort, in close quarters and under demanding conditions. When U.S. servicemen deploy their M9 in theater it needs to work. All 350 employees at Beretta U.S.A. understand the importance of this mission and remain committed to delivering the highest quality products to our Military”, said Mr. Oliva.


“Each of our M9 pistols is test fired with proof rounds and tested for accuracy at 50 meters”, said Gabriele de Plano, Vice-President of Product Development at Beretta U.S.A. Corp. “We have continued to invest significant resources to improve the quality and already impressive performance and reliability of the M9 through the years. We have also developed new accessories such as high-lubricity sand-resistant magazines to deliver improved performance in the unique environmental conditions of the Afghan and Iraqi theaters”, added Mr. de Plano. Each Beretta M9 pistol ships with 15-round standard magazines and is designed to accept 20-round magazines.


In 2005, Beretta U.S.A. Corp. received 13 contracts for M9 pistols and component parts from the U.S. Army and U.S. Marine Corps. Many of the U.S. Army purchases were multi-year contracts lasting five years, from which over $31 million dollars in purchase orders have since been issued to Beretta U.S.A. Corp.


In addition to the M9, Beretta U.S.A. has developed the M9A1 pistol which incorporates various enhancements such as integrated Picatinny rail, enhanced grip checkering and magazine well modifications to allow for quicker tactical reloads. To date Beretta U.S.A. has supplied over 4,000 M9A1 pistols to the United States Marine Corps.

About Beretta Law Enforcement:

In addition to producing the celebrated M-9 pistol, the official sidearm of the five branches of the US Armed Forces, Beretta also outfits law enforcement and homeland security agencies across the United States.

Through its recently-launched Total Solution™ system, Beretta combines the strengths and core-competencies of every company within the Beretta Holding Group to provide optimal products and services to the Law Enforcement and Defense community. Beretta’s Total Solution™ provides a complete array of products to suit diverse regional conditions and meet agency objectives and needs. These include the polymer Storm family of products (Cx4 carbines and Px4 pistols), the Benelli line of shotguns, including the M4 Super 90, adopted by the United States Marine Corps, the SAKO and Tikka line of sniper rifles, the line of shotguns and pistols offered by Stoeger, and the hi-tech line of optics manufactured in the US by Burris. Beretta also operates several armorer and tactical training schools across the United States. For additional information, visit berettaLE.com.

About Beretta:

Beretta established in 1526, is the oldest industrial dynasty in the world tracing its roots through 16 generations of continuous family ownership. Firearms bearing the Beretta name have been sold for almost 500 years. Beretta USA Corp. was founded in 1977 and supplies the standard sidearm to the U.S. Armed Forces. Today Beretta manufactures, distributes and markets a complete line of firearms, accessories and apparel. Beretta also owns and operates six retail Beretta Gallery stores worldwide. For additional information visit www.berettausa.com.

Rob96
January 18, 2008, 05:34 AM
Beretta M9- General issue military wide
1911- Still used within some special op units in the Army, marines
M11(Sig P228)- As mentioned used in military investigative units, also have seen pics of the Army's version of SWAT using them. Also some in JSOC.
G19- Assymetric Warfare Group, some in JSOC.
G22- Certain unit that falls under JSOC.

ugaarguy
January 18, 2008, 06:32 AM
1911- Still used within some special op units in the Army, marines
The M1911A1 was listed as a current air base defense weapon in Airman Magazine The Book 2007 http://www.af.mil/news/airman/0307/defense01.shtml.
I did not ever hear of, nor see them issued to regular rank and file Airmen while I was in. Like the M-14 listed on the same page it's no doubt issued only for specialized missions such as those performed by Air Force Office Of Special Investigations (AFOSI) or Air Force Special Forces.

RustyShackelford
January 18, 2008, 08:46 AM
I served 04 yrs in the US Army military police in the early 1990s/late 1980s. I used a Beretta 92F/M-9 model for about 2.5yrs. In CONUS law enforcement or as the MPs say; "law and order missions" we NEVER used any JHP 9mmNATO loads, I wish we did but we DID NOT. We did use standard milspec FMJ 124gr 9mmNATO rounds.
Now in today's US Army CONUS, DoD/083 police officers MAY use JHP rounds in the M-9 duty weapons but I'm not sure if US Army MPs/MPI or CIDC/DST(drug surpression) agents use JHP rounds in the duty M-9s and/or M-11s.

I'll have to go check this information out at www.militarypolice.com .

Rusty S

Chindo18Z
January 18, 2008, 12:27 PM
http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j245/Chindo18Z/IMGA0226.jpg

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j245/Chindo18Z/IMGA0225.jpg

My 1911A1 in Iraq - 2007

Rob96
January 18, 2008, 05:36 PM
The M1911A1 was listed as a current air base defense weapon in Airman Magazine The Book 2007 http://www.af.mil/news/airman/0307/defense01.shtml.
I did not ever hear of, nor see them issued to regular rank and file Airmen while I was in. Like the M-14 listed on the same page it's no doubt issued only for specialized missions such as those performed by Air Force Office Of Special Investigations (AFOSI) or Air Force Special Forces.

I was a USAF SP and never saw anyone carry a 1911. There is one former SP I know of on another board who was issued a 1911 at one of his assignments. The M-14 sees use with the PJ's and I am sure TACP's and CCT.

USTEXAN
September 8, 2012, 06:35 AM
can anyone shed light on the sig sauer p250 .40s&w fullsize

Ehtereon11B
September 8, 2012, 08:33 AM
This is an insanely old thread. I smell a lock.

4v50 Gary
September 8, 2012, 09:16 AM
USTexan. Please start a new thread.

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