Interesting info on Bushmaster

Well I just talked to my gunsmith and you guys were right from the factory my Bushy was not set up right evidently the barrel was slightly canted and the fron sights were leaning slightly and that is reason why I had to have my windage all the way to the left and even aim a little left in order to hit the target at 100 and 200 yards, he told me that he was able to fix the problem and there was no damage to the rifle ( thank god). No if only Bushmaster will pick up the bill.:rolleyes:

I talked to an Illinois State Police Officer about Bushmaster, they have a large contract order for Bushmasters and had to send a bunch of the first lot back for the same issue.
He said Bushmaster admitted they use some type of machine to screw barrel nuts and free floater handguards in place and it is tricky to use.
Too much speed and feed and the barrel nut or free float forend will end up way overtorqued and this causes the barrel to shift in the slot.
It also makes the barrels a real joy to get off the uppers, believe me on this.

Pretty bad when an individual can order a parts kit online and mate it to a receiver for less and end up with a better product than a "respected" manufacturer can produce. Where is their QC? How can you know you have a problem with a piece of assembly equipment and not run adequate QC in your product after assembly? No excuse for that.

for almost a $1000 a pop you would think they could do a better job, they keep this up RR is going to put um out.

Where is their QC?

WE are their QC:mad:

I've had 4 Bushmasters and all of them suffered from the dreaded over-indexed barrel syndrome. Recent reports have indicated that they have improved their carrier-key staking considerably, which is comforting since that is a real safety issue IMO. Bushmaster (and others) doesn't have to build their AR's to any standard other than what the marketplace demands. They could build a great AR, they just don't:banghead: , darnit!
vanfunk

Pretty bad when an individual can order a parts kit online and mate it to a receiver for less and end up with a better product than a "respected" manufacturer can produce.
Yes, well an individual could also do a better job at building a 392 stroker than a comapany that builds them and put them on a shelf.

When you build it yourself, you take all the time you need to get it done right. In mass pruduction, you have to get the product out to the customer or you dont make your numbers.

Companies have to find the sweet spot between QC and production, normally QC is what gets cut a little short. I dont agree with it, but its a fact of life.

I've owned several Bushmasters (all overtorqued on the barrel). The really frustrating thing about this problem is that this isn't a one-of occurence that happened with a particular run of rifles. It is a systematic reoccuring problem that has been going on since 2000 at least and possibly before that as well. It isn't critical rifle functioning issue like the carrier key problem; but it is an annoying one that could be easily corrected all the same.

If Bushmaster wants to charge Colt prices and offer a product with less materials cost and less QC, that isn't going to fly for too long in a world where anyone who wants to get informed on those details can get informed.

My brother had a Bushmaster carbine that he bought in the late 90s, and it had the over-torqued barrel. Bushmaster's QC is really overdue for an overhaul.

Amazing...I've never heard this. I bought a police carbine front end and mounted it to a generic A2 upper. It's awsome and sight zero is zero. As I understand/understood it, Colt 1st, Armalite 2nd, Bushy 3rd (dont quote me on that). Bushmaster is supposed to be a top player above DPMS and others.:eek:

I will buy a Bushmaster again if they do the following:
1) Have more 1/7" twist barrels available, in government weights.
2) Actually proof test and Magnaflux every barrel and bolt, not just in batches.
3) test the rifles for proper barrel index before leaving the factory.
4) Properly stake the gas key to the carrier (this prob has improved, but is it really fixed once and for all?)
5) Use proper receiver extensions (correct outside diameter and [I]forged [I], not extruded)
6) Use the proper "F" height front sight bases on their A3 carbines.
7) Properly stake castle nuts so they don't shoot loose.
8) Properly assemble each rifle and carbine.

Until then, I'll stick with Colts. I still feel that Bushmaster makes the best "clone" AR in my experience, but there's still a wide gulf between them and Colt that makes the Colt offerings well worth the small (and ever shrinking) difference in price between comparable units.

In all fairness, what I really want is a Colt at Bushmaster prices, and that ain't gonna happen!

vanfunk

As Bart says, this isn't new, it has been going on for many years, well before Y2K.

Thats why I went with RRA.
not that others do not have problems , They have just worked very well for me

Well I just talked to my gunsmith and you guys were right from the factory my Bushy was not set up right evidently the barrel was slightly canted and the fron sights were leaning slightly and that is reason why I had to have my windage all the way to the left and even aim a little left in order to hit the target at 100 and 200 yards, he told me that he was able to fix the problem and there was no damage to the rifle ( thank god). No if only Bushmaster will pick up the bill.

If you called Bushmaster they would have taken care of the problem. Food for thought. The index pin on the barrel extention is steel. The slot in your upper is aluminum. If you over torque a barrel the slot in the upper is damaged and the upper is worthless. I have seen front sight towers shift because the holes are tapered too much and the taper pins driven in too hard. I have a hard time beliving that an over torqued barrel is the sole issue.

Until then, I'll stick with Colts. I still feel that Bushmaster makes the best "clone" AR in my experience, but there's still a wide gulf between them and Colt that makes the Colt offerings well worth the small (and ever shrinking) difference in price between comparable units.

When was the las time you priced a Colt. I see a price difference of $400.00 in my area.

If Bushmaster wants to charge Colt prices and offer a product with less materials cost and less QC, that isn't going to fly for too long in a world where anyone who wants to get informed on those details can get informed.

Their is an agency in Ohio that tesed a Colt Commando (full auto) and a Bushmaster Entry (full auto). The Colt would not work for a full mag with out a malfuntion. The Bushmaster worked fine and they now have 30 of them.

that was a problem with mine. the front sight was canted and the windage was real far off. i sent an email with my phone number. got a call 10 minutes later with a return number. i sent it back to them. i got it back within a week and a half with a new barrel. two clicks from center and it's dead on now.

bushmaster immediately took care of the problem. i know some gun makers have problems, but the way they take care of that problem makes a huge difference in how people perceive them. i think my bushmaster is an awesome rifle, and problem or not, bushmaster quickly made it right, and i didn't have to do back flips for it.

Bushmaster is supposed to be a top player above DPMS and others.
This is the first time I've heard (seen) Bushmaster rated higher than DPMS. Maybe I'm not reading the right sources?

Their is an agency in Ohio that tesed a Colt Commando (full auto) and a Bushmaster Entry (full auto). The Colt would not work for a full mag with out a malfuntion. The Bushmaster worked fine and they now have 30 of them.

Any agency who is conducting testing based on a single example of a rifle from each manufacturer is using a flawed process to begin with.

As for Bushmaster, I've owned enough of them that the overtorqued barrel issue is pretty well known to me. For me the problem is that this is a continuing issue that Bushmaster has made a conscious choice not to address.

Now if you are charging $750 for the same rifle that Colt charges $1,300 for, then that is fine. I expect that when there is a $550 difference in rifles, you cut corners somewhere. However, Bushmaster has increased their price on rifles for several years running now while at the same time experiencing issues like improperly staked gas keys and other functional problems.

Suggested retail on a Colt LE6920 is about $1,375. Bushmaster is asking $1,230 for their version of the M4 on their website. Here are the material differences Colt is giving you for the extra $145:

1) M4 Feed Ramps
2) 1/7 twist instead of 1/9 twist
3) Parkerized under front sight base
4) Proper F marked front sight base
5) M4 dual heatshield handguards
6) Barrel and bolt on Colt have been proof tested and MP inspected (Bushmaster only MP inspects certain batches of barrels and does not test bolts at all)
7) The nut on the telescoping stock assembly is properly staked so it won't rotate loose in about 1,000 rounds of firing.

Now in addition to those material differences in the actual construction, Colt appears to apply better QC as well. Is it worth $145 per rifle to have a rifle that the factory didn't even bother to fire with live ammo as part of the QC process? Not to me it isn't...

"This is the first time I've heard (seen) Bushmaster rated higher than DPMS. Maybe I'm not reading the right sources?"

I said I could be wrong...it's very possible.:D

Does Colt condone dealers selling their Law Enforcement Only carbines to regular citizens?

Will Colt do warranty work on one owned by regular citizens?

If Bushmaster wants to charge Colt prices and offer a product with less materials cost and less QC, that isn't going to fly for too long in a world where anyone who wants to get informed on those details can get informed.


You know, I don't think that would actually happen. Bushmaster folks tend to be the biggest fan-boys and Bushmaster as a company seems to be very well liked, while Colt gets a lot more negativity. Ironically, Colt fans are criticized as being kool-aid drinkers.


What Bushmaster NEEDS is that set up that Colt/FN have. I was watching that show (forgot the name) on the Military Channel that shows a basic view of the manufacturing process of various military weapon systems. The one of the M16 is great. I paid close attention to the jig setup they had for barreling uppers and putting front sight posts on. The way that's set up - it looks VERY difficult to have it out of line. I noticed how the jig would turn 90 degrees, and there was a quality control check that would determine if the front sight post was in line or not.


Bushmaster is a nice rifle. It is a shame that a nice rifle like Bushmaster is cranking out rifles with so many issues like that. That is fundamental and unacceptable. That's something you'd expect from a Romanian SAR or WASR..not a $1,000+ U.S. made rifle. Although, I guess Bushmaster's reputation for supporting their product and making it right saves the day.


I'm not saying that Colt/FN don't put out a lemon or something out of spec. That happens. Been Colt's with improperly torqued barrel nuts reported before....but overall, these guys, having to deal with the DOD - have more QC, and as Barth says..there's NO justification, NO reason whatsoever that Bushmaster can't build in that kind of basic quality control for the prices they charge.


Suggested retail on a Colt LE6920 is about $1,375. Bushmaster is asking $1,230 for their version of the M4 on their website. Here are the material differences Colt is giving you for the extra $145:

1) M4 Feed Ramps
2) 1/7 twist instead of 1/9 twist
3) Parkerized under front sight base
4) Proper F marked front sight base
5) M4 dual heatshield handguards
6) Barrel and bolt on Colt have been proof tested and MP inspected (Bushmaster only MP inspects certain batches of barrels and does not test bolts at all)
7) The nut on the telescoping stock assembly is properly staked so it won't rotate loose in about 1,000 rounds of firing.
Now in addition to those material differences in the actual construction, Colt appears to apply better QC as well. Is it worth $145 per rifle to have a rifle that the factory didn't even bother to fire with live ammo as part of the QC process? Not to me it isn't...


Don't forget about:

1] properly staked gas keys. The way Colt stakes them - they don't come loose.
2] mil-spec receiver extensions (buffer tube).
3] Fire control parts are also smoother - better trigger (at least in my experience, this is subjective).
4] Colt is also selling their rifles with the real-deal M16 carrier, not an enhanced carrier.
5] Also, Colt's handguards are a different material. They seem more beefy and not as flimsy. (nitpicking on my part) Heck, aren't they using CAR handguards on many of their rifles including their 'M4' or has that recently changed? M4 handguards are suppose to be oval, not round.
6] Colt uses an H-buffer. IIRC, Bushmaster uses a standard buffer in their "M4". That's a $35 difference right there.
7] Enhanced extractor spring setup right out of the box.
8] Colt has the SIDE mounted front sling....


There's more stuff, but I can't remember it all. I also believe the charging handle as well as the detachable carry handle is more heavy-duty. Handling my Colt...everything feels more heavy duty.

Does Colt condone dealers selling their Law Enforcement Only carbines to regular citizens?

Yes. There is actually a letter from Colt on the subject correcting that common misperception. I believe you can find it in the archives here if you search, though I couldn't tell you which of the several dozen threads on this subject it might be in.

Will Colt do warranty work on one owned by regular citizens?

Also yes, though from what I hear this is one area where Bushmaster still has a huge advantage. Colt seems to have kept its previous labyrinth of customer service intact. That is one thing I will give credit to Bushmaster for, they handle customer repairs promptly and give the customer the benefit of the doubt when evaluating what caused the problem.

1] properly staked gas keys. The way Colt stakes them - they don't come loose.

Well, to be fair to Bushmaster that was an issue with the machine Bushmaster used to stake carrier keys. Bushmaster corrected that problem and assuming the machine is operating as it was designed to operate, a Bushmaster staked gas key won't come loose either. The problem for Bushmaster was dumping several thousand rifles on the market before they caught the problem.

3] Fire control parts are also smoother - better trigger (at least in my experience, this is subjective).

Yeah, that is too subjective for me to criticize any manufacturer for. I have seen good and bad everywhere on that one and Bushy fire control parts are often quite good in my opinion.

4] Colt is also selling their rifles with the real-deal M16 carrier, not an enhanced carrier.

Again, I don't consider this a significant difference in a semi-auto. The important part is the shrouded firing pin, which the enhanced carrier has. The tiny fraction of extra weight added by the M16 carrier really doesn't make a difference in function for a semi.

I agree with you on 2,6,7 and 8. Those are significant differences and I think they are worth $145 combined with the stuff mentioned earlier. The real problem isn't that Bushmaster makes a bad rifle because they do not. The problem is that Bushmaster wants Colt prices for its rifle without taking the extra steps that make Colt rifles more costly to produce.

A couple of guys have said they're going to go with (or stick with) Rock River to get away from this problem... My buddy's RR has the same thing... misalligned barrel.
Whatta-gonna-do?

Bartholomew,

Colt used to stamp rifles with flash hiders, bayo lugs, and collapsible stocks as "Law Enforcement Only", and continued to do so even after the AWB expired.

Are they still doing that?

Are they still doing that?

No idea.

Colt used to stamp rifles with flash hiders, bayo lugs, and collapsible stocks as "Law Enforcement Only", and continued to do so even after the AWB expired.

Are they still doing that?


AFAIK, they still do. I don't think they will change that either. Colt is partially government owned from what I understand and for some reason, they still maintain this civvie vs. LE distinction in their non-NFA firearms. Their LE rifles, contrary to internet myth, are completely and totally legal and available to any civilian who can own a firearm (except in states with AWB's). Any dealer should be able to call and get it from their distributor (if they're in stock, demand is high).


Colt just doesn't market their LE line to civilians. Dunno if it is politics or trying to keep the heat off of them from various entities...


I agree with you on 2,6,7 and 8. Those are significant differences and I think they are worth $145 combined with the stuff mentioned earlier. The real problem isn't that Bushmaster makes a bad rifle because they do not. The problem is that Bushmaster wants Colt prices for its rifle without taking the extra steps that make Colt rifles more costly to produce.

Bingo. Bushmaster = good rifle. But they should go all the way like Colt if they are charging nearly as much. That's a gunowners view - not a businessman's. A business point of view would suggest that 95% of AR-15 owners or potential AR-15 owners are completely and totally oblivious to these details, and thus, the savings to Bushmaster are significant because the added "features" are virtually WORTHLESS to the average AR-15 owner. When I go to the range, most AR-15 owners can't tell the difference between brands of rifles, or styles of rifles...let alone MPI testing, or staked keys.

I've been selling a lot of AR type rifles over the last year.

I've got a few left, and then my store will be Colt free. Sorry guys, I don't see the draw. We've dealt with bad Colts, and the main difference is that their customer service treats you like scum. We're done with Colt.

We aren't doing Bushmaster unless somebody really wants one. The prices keep on climbing, and they don't really offer anything extra. Which is too bad, because I really like the guys from Bushmaster.

We've had nothing but good guns from Rock River, BUT 6-10 week wait after I order a gun just plain sucks.

We've done a little bit of DPMS, but I haven't really formed a personal opinion of them one way or the other. Though their accurized .308 is AWESOME. I've never dealt with their service people.

Right now my favorite is Stag. Quality builds. Sold a bunch, haven't had any issues with any yet. Great people to deal with. Cheaper than Rock River (even though they make Rock River's receivers), and best part, it only takes me a week or two to get a gun from them.

The only downside of the Stag so far? I wish they had a cooler logo than the deer head. :p

How do you know if your barrel is overtorqued?

I had to adjust my windage about 10 clicks to the right of center on my Bushy 20" A3 rifle to zero it- is this normal?

I don't understand why Colt stamps their rifles "Law Enforcement Only" if they are trying to market to civilians.

My personal opinion is that Colt's "official" policy, if it ever became important in a lawsuit, is that they would say they never intended for civilians to have LEO guns, and that it was a bad gunstore owner who sold the gun, against official corporate policy.

For example, if another Beltway sniper incident occurred, but with a Colt rifle, I think Colt would say that the gun was intended for law enforcement only, since it is even stamped that way. They would try to use that to avoid the liability exposure Bushmaster had. This would put the gun store owner of being more liable and he would probably be hung out to dry.

Even though it is legal to sell LEO guns to civilians, I would be hesitant to do so if I was a gunstore owner. I think Colt is dumping all liability onto the gunstore owner.