California does it again: passed the ammo bill.


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PinnedAndRecessed
August 25, 2006, 12:46 AM
California Senate Passes Ballistics Identification Bill to Help Police Solve Gun Crimes

SACRAMENTO, Calif., Aug. 24 /U.S. Newswire/ -- With the support of forty-one police chiefs from around the state, the state senate today passed a bill (22-18) that will help police solve gun crimes and catch gun traffickers The bill, AB 352, requires that a new ballistics identification technology be required on all new semiautomatic handguns sold in California after 2008.


The new technology, microstamping, uses powerful lasers to make extremely precise, microscopic engravings on a handgun's firing pin or inside the firing chamber. These engravings reference the serial number of the handgun. When a bullet is fired from the handgun, the marks are transferred to the bullet casing. So when the police retrieve the bullet casing at a crime scene, they can quickly track down the legal owner of the handgun that fired it.


Assemblyman Paul Koretz (D-West Hollywood) is the lead sponsor on the bill, with the Coalition to Stop Handgun Violence, the organizational sponsor. A coalition of groups has been fighting to pass the bill since last year, including the Coalition to Stop Gun Violence, Legal Community Against Violence, Women Against Gun Violence, and the California Million Mom March Chapters along with their parent organization, the Brady Campaign.


Griffin Dix, the president of the California Million Mom March Chapters, stated, "Currently, no arrest is made in approximately 45 percent of all homicides in California because police lack the evidence they need. This bill will help police solve crime by providing them with new and meaningful leads for solving handgun crimes."


"On behalf of our law enforcement supporters and victims of crime we work with every day across the nation, I applaud the California State Senate for embracing this innovative technology. I'm hoping the Governor will listen to a fellow Republican and sign this bill once it passes," said Paul Helmke, the new president of the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence. Paul is a former three-term Republican Mayor of Fort Wayne, Indiana.


As the nation's largest, non-partisan, grassroots organization leading the fight to prevent gun violence, the Brady Campaign, working with its dedicated network of Million Mom March Chapters, is devoted to creating an America free from gun violence, where all Americans are safe at home, at school, at work, and in our communities.



http://news.yahoo.com/s/usnw/20060825/pl_usnw/california_senate_passes_ballistics_identification_bill_to_help_police_solve_gun_crimes313_xml

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PinnedAndRecessed
August 25, 2006, 12:49 AM
Can't believe it. Late last year it looked like the thing was gonna die out of sheer stupidity.

Paul Koretz (D-West Hollywood) is the lead sponsor

This guy is still around? He was the twit that got the 50 BMG banned.

I'm hoping the Governor will listen to a fellow Republican and sign this bill once it passes," said Paul Helmke, the new president of the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence. Paul is a former three-term Republican Mayor of Fort Wayne, Indiana.

I'm ashamed to be a repugnicant with phonies like that in office.

Sindawe
August 25, 2006, 12:55 AM
Me thinks that California's Legislature has been sampling too much of the states primary cash crop. :banghead:

If this is signed into law by the Governor, the next step will be to BAN all handguns manufactured prior to 2008, since the smart criminals will not want to use the new weapons.

Ramius
August 25, 2006, 12:59 AM
Ok, it's passed- but not signed.

What can we all do to kill it at this point? Any point in a non-resident (I'm in NC) trying to influence the thing at this point, or is it a done deal?

Since "Ahnold" has already signed the .50 ban, I kinda doubt he'd shy away from this, but would it hurt to try?

I'm tired of complaining, it's time to do something about this nonsense.

crazed_ss
August 25, 2006, 01:01 AM
Hmmm.. Looks like we wont be getting any new handgun models here. I doubt manufacturers are going to go along with this just to make CA happy. Even if we did get guns with this new "technology", I dont see how it's supposed to stop crime. It's not like criminals are gonna trade in their old guns for new ones that can microstamp the bullets.

CA.. oh well.. I really am suprised that we're allowed to have guns at all here. :(

Chawbaccer
August 25, 2006, 01:05 AM
If I was a California crook I think I'd just buy me a revolver.

Liberal Gun Nut
August 25, 2006, 01:12 AM
How stupid. I hope Arnie will have the sense to not sign this. My guess is that the assembly will pass it.

The Dems are idiots for doing this, because the mid-term is coming up and Republicans accross the country will say, "look what those crazy Dems are doing in California."

The only entity that wins from this is the company that makes this unworkable and useless technology.

loki.fish
August 25, 2006, 01:14 AM
Even if crooks did get these new guns. Anybody with a brain would take the 2 seconds to pick up the casing(s) that were dropped. So basically they're just telling the criminals that they need to be a bit smarter to fool them. I pity those who live in ************.

psyopspec
August 25, 2006, 01:19 AM
How do they intend to stop criminals from taking sandpaper to the head of the pin, or ordering a replacement?

riverdog
August 25, 2006, 01:20 AM
They've got Arnold right where they want him. He can sign it and lose Republican votes for Governor, or he can veto it and be labeled soft on crime. I'm an optimist, my guess is he'll veto -- it's an election year.

22-rimfire
August 25, 2006, 01:25 AM
I wish they would apply their savy skills as legislators to the illegal alien problem in California. Lets mark them so we can identify them if they commit a crime. Oh yeah, I forgot, the ACLU....

stlgunfan
August 25, 2006, 01:28 AM
Stupid. Id just replace the firing pin.

I doubt Feinstein even knows what a firing pin is. She cant even load a mag into a rifle.:D

1911Tuner
August 25, 2006, 02:37 AM
You can probably look for the sales of brass catchers to go up sharply...and then they'll pass a law banning the sale and possession of brass catchers.
Then they'll ban assault revolvers...and any revolver ammo.

Forget swapping the firing pin pretty soon. The fight over "Signifigant alteration" of a firearm requiring a manufacturer's license will spill over to "Any parts change that will alter the ballistic marks will require an FFL holder, and a qualified gunsmith for installation." Slides? Extractors? Ejectors? Firing pins? Barrels? Sorry comrade. That is forbidden. You must have the proper credentials and licensing. Why do you need another barrel anyway? Doesn't the one you already have shoot bullets?

Ramius...Mayberry? Used to have a thing for a gal over in Toast many years ago. I remember when Dave's was Dave and Joey's. Bad thing about Dave.
He was a good'un.

Husker1911
August 25, 2006, 02:42 AM
**********, so-so place to visit, for Gawd's sake, don't consider living there.

Alright, that's kinda harsh. I know there's multitudes of good, fine folks living there. But I've gotta tell you, I could never consider living in the state. Fight back, good citizens of California!

gunsmith
August 25, 2006, 02:43 AM
I would use a revolver and pick up some spent shells from the range
that lots of cops use....

:evil: :evil:

stlgunfan
August 25, 2006, 03:31 AM
If I recall doesnt the FBI stats show most shootings are done by revolvers? You gotta figure with the Semi auto becoming more popular over the last 20 years used revolvers can be bought very cheap, or even in the streets easily.

Btw IL wants a mail order ban on ammo sales. They can take their Firearms "oppressions" Ident card and shove it!

Mark Whiteman
August 25, 2006, 03:42 AM
Seems to indicate only the brass case would be microstamped either by the chamber wall, recoil surface, or the firing pin. All of which are subject to normal wear and tear. Everything has to be spiffy clean, shipshape, and fouling free. Break out the stainless steel brushes and burnish away. The whole idea would be laughable if it wasn't so intrusive and ultimately useless for catching badguys. They already steal or buy stolen guns. All the hoped-for tracing capability will do is lead back to some hapless crime victim, whom they may very charge with a storage violation. :mad:

TheArchDuke
August 25, 2006, 03:47 AM
WHen does this officially take effect?!

It just says "after 2008".

pax
August 25, 2006, 03:50 AM
Serious question for all you Californians who have ever posted a "stay and fight!"-type post on TFL or THR (you all know who you are...)

Why weren't there a dozen threads about this before it passed, organizing some kick-ass lobbying? Where were the frantic last-minute calls to pester your legislators when it was on the floor? Where were the organized trips to the capitol building to talk to congressmen and representatives in the days before it came up to vote?

If y'all are staying to fight ... why didn't you fight?

Ahhh-nold is as good a guv'nr as Cali has had in years (ain't saying much, is it...?). And he's a Republican and all. But he seems an awfully thin thread upon which to hang any hope for defeating this or any other stupid legislation.

pax

Wastemore
August 25, 2006, 04:45 AM
Pax,
Probably because it died out last year and no news has come up about it since. It's commonplace to gut and replace a must-pass at a quater-to-12 without the public catching wind of it.

AJAX22
August 25, 2006, 04:56 AM
I didn't write recently, simply because I didn't know that it was back. I thought it died and we had won.

I try to stay on top of it, but things slip past. That's how they getcha.

We have to win every time, they only have to sneak it by once.

jws
August 25, 2006, 05:24 AM
With the support of forty-one police chiefs from around the state, the state senate today passed a bill (22-18) that will help police solve gun crimes and catch gun traffickers.

Okay, am I the only one that thinks these chiefs are the definition of "desk jockies"? I'm not from **********, but do they require registration? Gee, do criminals register their guns? What happens whan an "illegal" gun is used? They'll have what they have now... bupkis.

So when the police retrieve the bullet casing at a crime scene, they can quickly track down the legal owner of the handgun that fired it.

What if they sold it? Or gave it as a gift?

Griffin Dix, the president of the California Million Mom March Chapters, stated, "Currently, no arrest is made in approximately 45 percent of all homicides in California because police lack the evidence they need. This bill will help police solve crime by providing them with new and meaningful leads for solving handgun crimes."

How about ... the same evidence they already get, with a higher probability of false leads? What? Are they going to micro-etch the manufacturer, caliber, AND serial number on the casing? I think not. And, as others have already commented, what is to keep somebody from taking off with or destroying the "evidence"? We are talking about criminals, right? Who don't care that it's a violation of the law, right?

As the nation's largest, non-partisan, grassroots organization leading the fight to prevent gun violence, the Brady Campaign, working with its dedicated network of Million Mom March Chapters, is devoted to creating an America free from gun violence, where all Americans are safe at home, at school, at work, and in our communities.

Hmm. A really old cliche just came to mind... Outlaw guns, and only outlaws will have guns.

71Commander
August 25, 2006, 08:18 AM
What if you police brass from a range to handload? It could have multiple stampings on it.:confused:

Beren
August 25, 2006, 08:24 AM
What if you police brass from a range to handload? It could have multiple stampings on it.

They'll just have to outlaw handloading next. Are LE firearms exempt from the bill's stamping requirements?

Nathan Williams
August 25, 2006, 08:30 AM
New firing pin $15.00

New extractor $35.00

**********s multi-million dollar ballistic fingerprinting system....worthless :neener:

444
August 25, 2006, 08:32 AM
"The new technology, microstamping, uses powerful lasers to make extremely precise, microscopic engravings on a handgun's firing pin or inside the firing chamber."

I guess that would depend on whether the microstamp is on the firing pin or on the chamber wall. If it is on the firing pin then no, only the number of the last gun to fire the round would be on the primer. Obviously, if the stamp is inside the chamber then the case would have multiple stamps assuming the case had been fired multiple times in a gun that was made after this law came into effect and that the gun had not been altered. As far as using brass from a police range (mentioned in another post), that is assuming that the police are using guns with this technology and the gun that previously fired the round was new enough to have this technology and it hadn't been modified. It would seem to me that handloading police range brass would just give another clue: this was fired by gun X, the case was picked by someone with access to range X who is also a handloader....................

Obviously this is only going to work if someone is using a handgun they legally purchased, and the handgun was made after this goes into effect, and it the handgun has not been modified. Equally obvious is that if they made modifying the gun illegal (which they will), I am sure that anyone wanting to illegally shoot someone else would be stopped cold at the idea of breaking the law by modifying the gun. But again, that is all obvious to those of us blessed with brains.

********** currently has a law requiring handguns sold there to pass some kind of drop test or something. That limited the types of guns sold in that state to guns that the manufacturer was willing to submit for testing. This law is going to further limit the guns sold in that state to guns that have already passed the previous drop test or whatever it is AND is willing to use this new firing pin engraving.

Nathan Williams
August 25, 2006, 08:37 AM
Ah well back to the good old days of black powder drive byes for Kali gangbangers I guess.

What goes clip clop clip clop bang bang?

An amish drive bye :D

PinnedAndRecessed
August 25, 2006, 10:56 AM
********** currently has a law requiring handguns sold there to pass some kind of drop test or something. That limited the types of guns sold in that state to guns that the manufacturer was willing to submit for testing.

Plus, they passed into law that as of 2007, all semiautomatic handguns have a) a loaded chamber indicator and b) a magazine disconnect.

That's going to guarantee the elimination of all but a few currently available semiautos since no way the major manufacturers are going to retool for every single model.

Plus the added cost for the above improvements, plus the cost for the new legal firing pin, is going to completely eliminate the lower end semiauto handguns. Because these lower end handguns will now be too expensive for their target clientele.

Kal pols are going to eliminate all firearms unless Kal firearms owners get on the ball. There are enough firearms owners in Kal to start their own political party if they just cared enough to do it.

But as a whole, they just don't care enough to do it. I lived there until late last year and their philosophy was they didn't much care was Sac did unless it impacted "their own" guns.

pax
August 25, 2006, 11:05 AM
Didn't see it coming ...

Why not??

Isn't there a single gunowner in that entire overcrowded state ... just one person ... who is willing to keep an alert and dedicated eye on what the critters in Sac are up to?

It only takes one person to sound the alarm about something like this.

Apparently there's not even one gunowner in the entire state who cares enough to do the work it would take.

Without such work, freedom dies.

pax

orangelo
August 25, 2006, 11:10 AM
Any gun manufacturer that goes along with this crap just to appease the west coast communists loses my business forever. I own ZERO ruger products, and I have 1 Smith & Wesson model 19-3 made in 1974. Of course since I don't waste money on products from those backstabbing companies that leaves me plenty of money to buy Class 3 goodies. I'll probably be getting a Barrett in the near future, just because Ron Barrett doesn't take that kind of crap from the ********** kommies.

Are the police departments exempt from that garbage? Or do they have to purchase weapons with those boondoggles installed too?

I'm guessing they can probably purchase and carry regular guns, since they can get AR-15s and .50BMG rifles that are considered too dangerous for the peasants to own.

Sawdust
August 25, 2006, 11:12 AM
Easy, Pax. Take a breath.

Not everything in the gun world takes place at THR. ;)

Lots of discussion of this and other CA legislation at www.calguns.net


Sawdust

Nathan Williams
August 25, 2006, 11:13 AM
I support Barret after their decision not to sell to gov depts in Kali.

pax
August 25, 2006, 11:26 AM
Lots of discussion of this and other CA legislation at www.calguns.net
Okay, so you did all see it coming.

In that case, why weren't you shouting it from the rooftops? Why wasn't it cross-posted to all the busiest firearms discussion sites on the 'net, so that you could all coordinate your calls to your legiscritters offices?

Again, it would only take one person to spot what the critters were up to and alert others. And it would only take a couple of others to scream bloody murder throughout the firearms blogosphere.

But no one did it.

"Stand and fight" my left toenail. Blech.

pax

50 Shooter
August 25, 2006, 11:29 AM
And if anyone took the time to stop bashing Kali and did some reading they would know that it's not over.

Stand up and fight all you Kali people, get off THR and get on Calguns.net! Call, or write your assembly member, don't waste time with emails!

For all you haters out there. http://calnra.com/legs.shtml?year=2006&summary=ab352

orangelo
August 25, 2006, 11:36 AM
Kommiefornia is a lost cause. The simple truth is:

"stand and fight" californians = bonus electoral college votes for gore, kerry and klinton

Not much else to it.

PinnedAndRecessed
August 25, 2006, 11:51 AM
Isn't there a single gunowner in that entire overcrowded state ... just one person ... who is willing to keep an alert and dedicated eye on what the critters in Sac are up to?


Truth is the entire state is slowly eliminating the shooting sports/ownership of guns.

The DOJ is hounding FFLs out of business. In order to get a new FFL, govt officials notify everyone within 100 yards of your proposed place of biz to see if anyone objects. And that's the easy part.

The megarapid housing boom is shutting down gun ranges. I attended a meeting re a gun range in Modesto where people who have moved in decided they were "uncomfortable" with the range. In spite of their inaccuracies the range was shut down. That is becoming a very common scenario throughout the state.

Kal also changes the laws so frequently about such things as how to legally transport your firearms that not even law enforcement knows what's legal and what isn't. I got to where I was calling local LEOs before I left the house to go to a range to see if I was legal. They'd have to transfer me two or three times before someone could answer.

It's obviously getting to the point where, since there are fewer and fewer places to shoot, fewer and fewer people even care about guns.

pax
August 25, 2006, 11:56 AM
50 Shooter ~

Just to be clear, I am not "bashing" Cali, the state.

I am very plainly and clearly bashing the Cali gun owners who were and are too #%^& LAZY and SELFISH and DISINTERESTED in their own government to get off their fat behinds and do any work to kill this sort of legislative nonsense and to keep killing it until it stays dead.

Yeah, I'm cruel and all that. But every time someone mentions the word "California" on this board, two very predictable things happen:

1) someone who doesn't live there says, "You should just leave."

2) a chorus of Californians reply, "No, you should have stayed and fought. That's why we're staying!"

I'm only pointing out what an empty lie that is. It's so hollow it echooooeees. If all you California-defenders really stayed in California to fight, why do the rest of us only hear the complaints when you've lost another one? Why don't we ever hear the grunts of effort to prevent such losses in the first place?

To be fair, I realize THR ain't the be-all and end-all of the gun world or even of the online gun world. But do you all really believe that every gun owner in Cali reads Calguns? I doubt it.

Or are you so complacent that it never occurs to you that you all need to drum up as much noise as possible for every single one of these outrages and recruit more help to fight them -- and that that means you should be talking about such efforts everywhere you go, in an attempt to gather up the missing Cali gun owners and bring them into the fight, too?

I take a walk around the firearms blogosphere nearly every day. If any one of you "stand and fight" people were actually standing and fighting, I think there would have been some whisper of the effort elsewhere. Either y'all were totally blindsided, or no one in your world made even a minor attempt to get the word out to other gun owners somewhere online.

Sorry if those are harsh words. I'd like to be proven wrong. Stand and fight, you "stand and fight" people. Prove to me how wrong I am.

Don't whine. Get up and DO.

pax

Henry Bowman
August 25, 2006, 11:59 AM
As I understood the original bill, Police were NOT exempt. It only makes sence that individual LEO brass needs to be accounted for at a scene.

Does anyone know if this is still the case?

50 Shooter
August 25, 2006, 12:15 PM
Pax,
I'll give you the one about "some" Kali gun owners, as you can tell people think this is over. There is still time to fight it in the Assembly, if it goes further than that it still has to pass Arnie. Personally if it gets to Arnie I'm sure it's a done deal, the Dem in him (frankenswine) will show if he needs something.

The sad part is that there are to many gun owners that sit on the wrong side of the fence. They would give up their guns if told to do so tomorrow, on top of that not enough of them vote to help us out.

Nightfall
August 25, 2006, 12:19 PM
So I wonder how big an investment this microstamping laser equipment is. How many mfgs are going to shell out so they can sell their handguns in CA, on top of all the other hoops they already have to jump thru?

The antis can't quite get an outright handgun ban in Cali, so they're happily killing private ownership by a thousand cuts. Boy howdy, it looks to be workin' well too.

pax
August 25, 2006, 12:26 PM
I'll give you the one about "some" Kali gun owners, as you can tell people think this is over. There is still time to fight it in the Assembly, if it goes further than that it still has to pass Arnie.
Say it louder, brother.

Say it and keep saying it.

Who do you need people to contact? Which legiscritters are up for re-election this fall? Which ones are vulnerable to a little arm-twisting? When is it going to the Assembly? When's the next hearing? Who's the legiscritter in charge of it?

Say it louder. Say it everywhere. Keep saying it.

Get that word out!

pax

ArmedBear
August 25, 2006, 12:31 PM
I am very plainly and clearly bashing the Cali gun owners who were and are too #%^& LAZY and SELFISH and DISINTERESTED in their own government to get off their fat behinds and do any work to kill this sort of legislative nonsense and to keep killing it until it stays dead.

Yeah, I'm cruel and all that. But every time someone mentions the word "California" on this board, two very predictable things happen:

Pax, you are clueless.

The majority of our legislators here have no interest in representing gun owners. It's a permanent majority, at least for this decade, and the culture of the legislature is utter comtempt for the citizens of the state. It doesn't MATTER how much hell is raised. NRA-ILA has been on this, CalGuns has been on this, GOCa, CRPA, and it doesn't matter because the majority of the legislature has authoritarianism as its objective, one bit at a time, no matter what we do or say. This bill is only a TINY part of that.

This is a list of the Assembly Bills currently in play:
http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/pub/bill/index_assembly_bill_author_topic

And here's what's in the State Senate:
http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/pub/bill/index_senate_bill_author_topic

You're assuming that our government is representative of the people of the state, at least to a degree. It's not. That's why we have so many propositions here. The only groups that have real power over the state are public employee unions.

You think that the fact that our legislators pass this sort of bill means that we don't care? Come here and see for yourself.

P.S., as far as Arnie is concerned, he is our only hope here. But I'm not banking on it, because lately he sounds like John Edwards. We'll try, though, and maybe it'll work better than the .50 BMG ban.

50 Shooter
August 25, 2006, 12:31 PM
Here's the link to the Assembly members, find yours and contact them!

http://nramemberscouncils.com/legs/asm.shtml

pax
August 25, 2006, 12:36 PM
ArmedBear ~

If it's that hopeless, why are you still there?

(Oh? To "stand and fight"? DO THAT. Don't whine about how hard the job is. Don't announce there's no point. Do it.)

Edited to add for clarity: I'm not upset at y'all because the legislation passed. I'm upset at y'all because not one of you saw fit to scream about it on either of the two busiest gun boards I know, before it passed.

pax

Jorg Nysgerrig
August 25, 2006, 12:37 PM
Hmmm.. Looks like we wont be getting any new handgun models here. I doubt manufacturers are going to go along with this just to make CA happy.

That's the plan, you see. That way California isn't stopping the sale of guns. The evil gun manufacturers just don't care enough about the safety of California's children to make the change.

California is trying to make it prohibitively expensive to be in the gun business in that state.

pax
August 25, 2006, 12:41 PM
50 Shooter ~

Not quite loud enough. Start a fresh thread, title something like: "California Gun Owners! Contact Your Representatives NOW!"

PM one of the L&P Moderators and request they make it a sticky.

Put a brief synopsis of the situation at the top of the post, starting with what you want people to DO about it.

Put your links next. Not too many links, and make sure they are clearly marked: "This link takes you to a page where you can find out who your Representative is and how to contact your Representative's office... This link explains more about the legislation... This link takes you to ________" (ArmedBear's post was an excellent example of this.)

pax

Vitamin G
August 25, 2006, 12:42 PM
I have to agree with Pax. Cali is a lost cause because it doesn't seem like most people CARE. Its unfortunate, but sometimes you have a lose a battle to win the war. Bail out! What we need is a counter offensive in some other state to swing the momentum. Not Montana or Wyoming or some small state. I mean something like a gun-friendly "mainstream" "moderate" state like PA or TX (someone with more than 3 electoral votes) passing laws de-regulating SBR's or permitting NFA weapons if they were built in-state, thus avoiding the interstate commerce crap.
I vote for PA, but i'm not biased or anything ;0

ArmedBear
August 25, 2006, 12:45 PM
If it's that hopeless, why are you still there?

Not to stand and fight: 50shooter wrote that, and I was the one who mocked the idea. California will have to spiral downward without us; it already is, and I'm not talking about gun laws. No new businesses are starting here, existing ones are leaving, and our last thread of hope, the Govenator, has joined the other side. Only by hitting "rock bottom" might the place change, but I doubt it.

I'm still here because something really important is already underway.:) Our midwife is here and we're having a son in a few months. Gotta use vacation time then; this is a bad time to quit the job.

After that, we already have plans to leave. Two scouting trips done already.

It's sad; this isn't the California I grew up in. It was a wonderful place. Living at the beach in San Diego doesn't suck, either; only the politics do.

pax
August 25, 2006, 12:45 PM
Vitamin G ~

I don't agree that Cali is a lost cause, and I don't think people should bail out.

I just think that if they're staying to stand and fight, then they should bloody well fight -- not go down with barely a whimper.

pax

anotherKevin
August 25, 2006, 12:49 PM
Simple answer for me is that I checked the NRA california bills list yesterday, and it was listed as defeated. Like several other folks, I had no clue this was even out there.

However, I'm done with this state. The family completed one scouting trip a few weeks ago, we have another one late in the year, with a final one next spring.

ArmedBear
August 25, 2006, 12:50 PM
I don't agree that Cali is a lost cause, and I don't think people should bail out.

What do you really know about it?

By staying, we're just adding to the number of electoral votes that go to an anti-gun candidate for President, and giving financial support to the state that will keep doing what it's doing, regardless.

This has been going on long enough, for me, anyway.

Phetro
August 25, 2006, 01:00 PM
The new technology, microstamping, uses powerful lasers to make extremely precise, microscopic engravings on a handgun's firing pin or inside the firing chamber. These engravings reference the serial number of the handgun. When a bullet is fired from the handgun, the marks are transferred to the bullet casing. So when the police retrieve the bullet casing at a crime scene, they can quickly track down the legal owner of the handgun that fired it.

The leftists reveal themselves in this statement. What good does tracking the legal owner have to do with solving crimes?

This is not a crime-fighting bill. It is a subject-control bill. Yield, all you subjects of the People's Republic of **********, or be destroyed by your masters!

Prince Yamato
August 25, 2006, 01:02 PM
So, how does this law help me if I'm shot with a stolen weapon?

Sometimes I wish Southern California and Long Island would drift out into their respective oceans and sink.

#shooter
August 25, 2006, 01:05 PM
Revolver sales will skyrocket on the regular and blackmarket.

Vic
August 25, 2006, 01:10 PM
:cuss: This is exactly the stupidity that causes Democrats to loose elections and yet...THEY CANNOT UNDERSTAND WHY THEY LOOSE! If the Gov signs this POS...he can kiss his political career goodbye (I'm thinking he's smart enough to know this, just as GW Bush knew the assualt weapons ban would have ended his political career). How THICK can a party or person be that they cannot understand the majority of the American public will not tolerate this garbage (especially when the majority OWNS FIREARMS). It is good that they bring this up in an election year. It stands to remind us all of Klinton and his bunch of gun grabbing idiots. If you don't learn from history...you are condemed to repeat it. Looks like we're in for another bout of election year antics of gun control and stealing elections...remember to vote for your GUNS.:banghead:

ArmedBear
August 25, 2006, 01:15 PM
The purpose of this law is to make a lot of money for someone well-connected, who invented something that has no real value. If signed, this law will force people to give him money, and he'll get rich, off something that the marketplace didn't want.

Next time some idiot tells you that the Democrats are for the little guy against the rich and powerful, think about what these laws REALLY do.

Zundfolge
August 25, 2006, 01:22 PM
So, how does this law help me if I'm shot with a stolen weapon?
It helps you because the lazy, stupid gun owner that allowed his gun to be stolen will surely be punished now!



Anyway, Californians (especially California Republicans) need to inundate Arnie with letters, emails, calls and personal visits from y'all telling him that if he doesn't veto this crap this will be his last term.

Hk91 Fan
August 25, 2006, 01:23 PM
I think Cali gun owners have done a great job, and take alot of crap from people in "free" states. Few states have a more effective grassroots system than Cali - those in "free" states will someday realize they, too, need to learn from Cali's experience and legislative accumen.

Further, the question, at this point, is not why haven't Cali owners done this or that, but why haven't non-Cali owners helped them out. I would bet my S&W 24, that over 9 out of 10 people harping on Cali-owners have done nothing to help them out in any way. That is unaccecptable.

What firms provide arms for LAPD, CHP, and all the other acronyms that I can't think of right now? Who provides ammunition? Calls to NRAIL, GOA, NSSF, JPFO, and all of these acronyms must be made.

longeyes
August 25, 2006, 01:29 PM
Loss of gun rights in California is, though vitally important to those of on this forum, only minor background noise in terms of what is evolving in California, at least in terms of what preoccupies the people who live here. California is giving birth to the new America, and that will be an ethno-socialist soft dictatorship that should be carefully studied as a harbinger of what the rest of this country can look forward to unless we get both new leadership and a new level of citizen involvement.

ArmedBear
August 25, 2006, 01:32 PM
Loss of gun rights in California is, though vitally important to those of on this forum, only minor background noise in terms of what is evolving in California, at least in terms of what preoccupies the people who live here. California is giving birth to the new America, and that will be an ethno-socialist soft dictatorship that should be carefully studied as a harbinger of what the rest of this country can look forward to unless we get both new leadership and a new level of citizen involvement.

Now longeyes, we may disagree on some fine points sometimes here, but this post is one of the the most dead-on, concise summaries of the California situation that I have ever read, anywhere.

Everyone who isn't here in CA, read it and understand. Then go to the links I gave above, to see what we're up against. Hundreds of new laws are passed, day in and day out, in Sacramento, which is VERY far from here, geographically and politically. Representation? Bah!

But also look at this: http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20060817/news_lz7e17madaff.html

"The new no-smoking ordinance encourages a healthier lifestyle for San Diegans and promotes a better quality of life..." Sounds like a politician in Atlas Shrugged or 1984, doesn't it?

Even in "conservative" San Diego, the trend towards total government control of personal behavior is quite evident.

txgho1911
August 25, 2006, 01:39 PM
She doesn't require to take a breath. I would rather know she can hold her breath for a moment when it's due. Should hope she can take aim instead of take a break.
I work across the street from my states capital building. Stopping into a few offices every couple weeks is not a big deal. I get much more honest feedbak from legislators and assistants becaus I am not a member of the press.
I know several reps and senators in the state legislature by name and face. State police is plainclothes as security on a very borring job.
Some of the activists job includes cultivation of mutualy respectable relationships to allow open dialog about all of those matters the powers who would be may believe is first in thier best interst as well as the surf.. ah publics.
Here in Indiana this year there was a part of legislation that the State Senate "Pre pro tempore" found disagreable. It no sooner landed in the Senate befor he was beat up over it at a breakfast hosted and sponsored by his districts biggest buisiness interests. So dirty deals and backside scrubbing budy done to get the NRA stand your ground law into the correct committee. Indiana did not gain anything more than spelling this out in statute.

After all this the Senator lost his re-election bid in the primary very easily. Several people on this and other boards spread the word of this matter and every other peronal interest the man allowed to drive his agenda. He nixed a lot of good legislation and rebuilt everything he could not outright kill. His trophy feather was lifetime healthcare for legislators and spouces.

If you find legislative dirt on legislators just pass the word. It works. The less RKBA related the more that same information may be passed among those who dissagree with you.

Thefabulousfink
August 25, 2006, 01:44 PM
We need to get on the firearms manufacturers to stand up Cali.

Dear CA DOJ,

It has come to the attention of our company that as of 2008 the sale of firearms lacking a laser-stamping device to mark individual cases as the gun fires. None of our product line currently has this technology, nor is it included in any products that we have in development. The R&D on this tech alone would outsrip any forcast sales increase from it, therefore we have decided to cease ALL firearms sales to the state of California. This decision also includes sales to ANY CALIFORNIA GOVERNMENT AGENCY. It is not in our business model to sell to private contracts only, and this appears to be the prevailing thought among most firearm manufacturers. I am sure this should not be any concern of yours, since you have effectively outlawed guns in your state, your police should have nothing to fear.:neener:

ArmedBear
August 25, 2006, 01:45 PM
We need to get on the firearms manufacturers to stand up Cali.


Yes. That's the only chance we really have here.

pete f
August 25, 2006, 01:45 PM
The whole thing makes my head hurt, how such a great place, (which it is, great place) can end up with so many morons and crooks running the place. I have yet to see anything that gives me hope that at anytime in the foreseeable future, there is any reason to believe that it will get anybetter.

The One big hope, Is that Ronnie Barrett gets a headlock on the manufacturers and gets them to decide, no more guns for cali law enforcement. NONE NOT A ONE. no spare parts, no ammo for cops, Not one IOTA of support.


Let the left discover that their bodyguards and private cops have no ammo, no spare parts, and let them learn the hard way. Let em hang out to dry. Let them fight with no arms. Far as I am concerned let mexico try to take it again, then let the rest of us come in and clean house.

silverlance
August 25, 2006, 01:46 PM
We have been fighting this the wrong way. We cannot keep blocking their attempts forever. Eventually something will get through - like this, for instance.

there is only one real way to fight this --

and this i stress --

we must take the fight to our enemies. we do this by directly interacting with these groups that would advocate for our disarmament, and engage them in discussion in a polite and logical way that can somehow turn them to our side.

i'd like to get together some gun folks in Los Angeles that will be willing to go with me to gate crash lefty parties and council meetings. we'll get a lot of flak, especially those of us who work for the public, but we have got to go to them and show them how they are approaching the crime problem incorrectly.

furthermore, those of us - and this is not me - who are knowledgable about crime need to come up with a viable alternative to solving the problem of crime rather than disarmament.

any ideas?

txgho1911
August 25, 2006, 01:57 PM
Looks like Indiana has attracted some lucrative industry expansions.
http://in.gov/search?site=in-gov&client=in-gov&proxystylesheet=in-gov&output=xml_no_dtd&restrict=GOV&filter=0&q=new+jobs

longeyes
August 25, 2006, 02:01 PM
i'd like to get together some gun folks in Los Angeles that will be willing to go with me to gate crash lefty parties and council meetings. we'll get a lot of flak, especially those of us who work for the public, but we have got to go to them and show them how they are approaching the crime problem incorrectly.

Here's the crux of it: those who disagree with the leftist elites and the local and state power brokers are the real "criminals." We gun owners are merely being tolerated. Temporarily. They figure we'll move, die off, or shut up because we're afraid of losing our jobs, homes, or lives. The real agenda is a complete take-over of the state in a neo-Castro mold.

Do they care whether businesses are leaving? So far, apparently not, but then the Left isn't good at thinking beyond its "five-year plan." The biggest business in SoCal is building new schools, and that, I'm sure, is very lucrative indeed for the people with the right connections.

I plan to write the Terminatrix and tell him he ought to veto this stupid bill, but I am under no illusions that he is any more than a front man for the usual suspects.

ArmedBear
August 25, 2006, 02:05 PM
The biggest business in SoCal is building new schools

...to teach foreigners in foreign languages at our expense...

My parents were immigrants. They came legally, then they became citizens. They made sure I learned English first.

Now, what language your kids speak at home is your problem, but the language they learn in school, at my expense, should be the same one I speak, and the same one that business, law and politics are conducted in. I have no vested interest whatsoever in funding education for any purpose other than to help kids become productive citizens, and it is immoral to take my money to do otherwise.

Gun laws? Hell, they're the least of our problems, in the big picture.

50 Shooter
August 25, 2006, 02:05 PM
Fink,
The idea is sound but for it to work the gun industry would have to have pressure put on it from "we" the people. If the gun owners of America told ALL manufactuers that we will not buy their products if they sell to ANY California agency, what do you think their response will be?

Which company do you think would want to be put out of business because no one will buy their products? Wonder how California agencies would feel if they knew that the firearms they're carrying now are the last ones they'll ever get?

Any takers? Let's hear from all the free state people and those of you soon to leave Kali people.

ArmedBear
August 25, 2006, 02:09 PM
I make gun purchase choices based on a variety of factors. I'd be happy to include that one, particularly if we can get enough to join the effort.

Are there any manufacturers who don't sell to CA right now, other than Barrett?

It needn't be a deliberate stance like Barrett's; if a company doesn't sell to CA agencies by pure coincidence, it would be possible to choose to buy from them, while informing them that, if they do sell to CA agencies, they won't see any more of those sales.

Vic
August 25, 2006, 02:23 PM
Where was the NRA during this deception in this state??????? Time for the NRA to turn burners to full heat on the Republik of **********. Isn't that why we pay the membership? This is gonna be a messy political year!:confused:

Baba Louie
August 25, 2006, 02:29 PM
http://info.sen.ca.gov/pub/bill/asm/ab_0351-0400/ab_352_bill_20060619_amended_sen.html
The bill as amended and passed in the Senate.

The bill's history...
http://info.sen.ca.gov/pub/bill/asm/ab_0351-0400/ab_352_bill_20060824_history.html

All you can do is contact your assembly representatives, your fellow political party members, fellow gun owners, a few gun and ammo mfgs. and raise bloody Cain.

I see no exemption for LE Agencies, I see no language making possession of older firearms illegal (yet), I wonder who is going to be the one company to make this technology foolproof and 100% reliable.
This bill would, commencing January 1, 2009, expand the definition
of unsafe handgun to include semiautomatic pistols that are not
designed and equipped with a microscopic array of characters, that
identify the make, model, and serial number of the pistol, etched
into the interior surface or internal working parts of the pistol,
and which are transferred by imprinting on each cartridge case when
the firearm is fired.

Searching for information that lead up to this being a "useful" tool in the War on Semi-Automatic Handgun Crime. Or should I just eliminate the word "Crime" in the last sentence?

bg
August 25, 2006, 02:30 PM
AB 352 still has to go back to the Assembly for a vote.
You can help us out here in Ca to defeat this bill by sending a
one click e-mail to the entire Assembly asking
each Assembly Member they VOTE NO ON
AB 352.

Just a simple e-mail asking the Assembly to
vote no with a short, polite message will help.
I hope all here on The High Road will consider
doing so. Thanks..>

http://nramemberscouncils.com/legs.shtml#contactinfo

71Commander
August 25, 2006, 02:36 PM
I'm not upset at y'all because the legislation passed. I'm upset at y'all because not one of you saw fit to scream about it on either of the two busiest gun boards I know, before it passed.

To expand on this. Shouldn't I/we have read about this on any and all guns boards that we frequent, no matter their membership size?

Zundfolge
August 25, 2006, 02:39 PM
Just a simple e-mail asking the Assembly to
vote no with a short, polite message will help.
I hope all here on The High Road will consider
doing so.

I've often wondered about that ... if I (as a citizen of Colorado) were to email some California politicritter and ask him/her to vote one way or another on a bill, does this have any impact? Or will s/he just look at my email and think "Who does this Coloradoan think he is telling Californians how to vote!?"

Deanimator
August 25, 2006, 02:41 PM
I have a better idea. No gun manufacturers sell any new guns in California, especially to state and local law enforcement agencies. Cut off any distributors who violate this policy.

I wonder how the CHP would like to carry tomahawks on their belts and have a bow and arrow in the trunk?

Rockrivr1
August 25, 2006, 02:41 PM
To those that keep saying that this is a Cali fight and that it's a lost cause are not looking at the bigger picture. This might be just about Cali now, but if this passes it will have repurcussions across the US. Typical anti gun states across the union will take the lead on passing their own version of this. It may START with Cali, but states like Massachusetts, New York, New Jersey etc. will very quickly follow suit. If to many states get on board it will only be a matter of time before this hits the federal level. Everyone thought the Assault Weapons Ban was bad, imagine this on a national level. Some will scoff, but it will come down to whether the Dems take over the legislature come November.

As to getting all the gun manufactures on board and forcing them to stand up to Cali, I don't see it happening. While some or even most may stand up, there will always be one or two that will see dollar signs and a way to make some fast cash by stepping in.

I think those of us that live in these anti gun states need to pay very close attention to what happens here. It's basically in our future if it passes

ArmedBear
August 25, 2006, 02:49 PM
Rockrivr1 is right.

It's not just a CA fight.

Those of us leaving are not just leaving so we can get an AR-15, though.

rbernie
August 25, 2006, 02:52 PM
if I (as a citizen of Colorado) were to email some California politicritter and ask him/her to vote one way or another on a bill, does this have any impact? Or will s/he just look at my email and think "Who does this Coloradoan think he is telling Californians how to vote!?"When you write to them, do so as a former or potentially future resident if that's a honest position to take.

Bubbles
August 25, 2006, 02:56 PM
As to getting all the gun manufactures on board and forcing them to stand up to Cali, I don't see it happening. While some or even most may stand up, there will always be one or two that will see dollar signs and a way to make some fast cash by stepping in.

Glock, S&W, and Colt come to mind immediately.

It's really too bad, because after Ronnie Barrett told FedGov that if the .50 BMG rifle ban passed he'd cut off sales to all Federal LE agencies that bill got left in a Congressional committee to die. If the handgun manufacturers had half of Barrett's backbone, none of this would be an issue.

Gordon Fink
August 25, 2006, 02:58 PM
Uh, pax, we’ve been fighting this bill and will continue to fight it. In fact, I’m pretty sure the matter has been discussed here on the High Road on more than one occasion. Of course, it’s also an ongoing issue at CalGuns.

Nevertheless, the odds are stacked against us. Any anti-gun bill that can’t be stopped in committee is almost guaranteed to pass in a floor vote, because the Democrats hold an institutional majority in the Legislature. The problem, you see, goes far beyond the battle over the right to arms.

~G. Fink

longeyes
August 25, 2006, 03:03 PM
Which company do you think would want to be put out of business because no one will buy their products? Wonder how California agencies would feel if they knew that the firearms they're carrying now are the last ones they'll ever get?

No doubt there will be a bloc of California legislators who will make a case for why California law enforcement will be more "enlightened" if they disarm.

No, this is not just about California, and, yes, it is just one more beachhead. The gun grabbers stay awake dreaming of new and insidious ways to disarm us.

Those of us who plan to leave California aren't just about wanting an AR or an AK, but we are looking for a place to make a stand, make no mistake about that. We know what's coming because we can see it here NOW.

Thefabulousfink
August 25, 2006, 03:09 PM
It is time for the letter-writting campaign to start!

Us non-cali gun owners will not do much good writing to CA lawmakers but we CAN write Glock, SIG, Kimber, Colt, Bushmaster, and S&W. Tell them that if this legislation passes and they continue to support California we will stop supporting them.

Heck, lets get adds published in the Gun Rags and include list of companies that sell to CA state agencies. Even if we can get one or two to come on board it will make a significant impact on CA. If their are only 2-3 companies dealing with CA then they won't have to bid as low and CA will pay more.:evil:

The only way to win is to hit them where it hurts, in the $$$.

crazed_ss
August 25, 2006, 03:34 PM
I think people are missing something here. Everyone is saying "Why didnt you guys do something about this?!"

What exactly can we do? Democrats control everything here. The general populace support the democrats. Even if every gun owner in CA wrote a letter, it wouldnt have made a difference. Many people see legislation like this as "Common Sense" gun control.. especially when you got the Police behind it.

Im sorry, but Cali is lost. Convincing the people and government here to become pro-gun would be like convincing the KKK to accept blacks as equals. It just isnt gonna happen.. ever.

Like I said before, I suprised they havent found a way to completely outlaw private firearm ownership here.

ArmedBear
August 25, 2006, 03:40 PM
Convincing the people and government here to become pro-gun would be like convincing the KKK to accept blacks as equals. It just isnt gonna happen.. ever.


Membership in the KKK is down a tad since the '50s and '60s, though, isn't it?

California is lost because you can't change groups with a mentality like the KKK, which anti-gunners certainly have.

However, one person at a time, you can perhaps get people to LEAVE the KKK. It's hard to be a racist when some of your family's best friends are black and you go to social gatherings with them, and it's hard to be a rabid anti-gunner when some of your favorite people own guns, and when you go shooting with them.

That, no matter where you are, is the way to win this and every similar battle.

crazed_ss
August 25, 2006, 03:48 PM
Good points. It just seems like the task is too daunting.

It's sad that guns have to be such a political issue. The opinions are clearly drawn down party lines.

Democrats = Guns Bad
Republicans = Guns OK

For the average Californian, guns arent important enough to make them switch parties.

WYO
August 25, 2006, 03:54 PM
For the average Californian, guns arent important enough to make them switch parties.

. . . or move to a gun friendlier state and try to move congressional seats.

Depending on the cost of implementation of this provision, we well could see the manufacturers have to draw the line somewhere. If they have to move their price points for the whole country just so they can sell guns in California, the market may decide. I, for one, hope that I don't get forced to pay for least common denominator guns.

orangelo
August 25, 2006, 04:07 PM
If any gun manufacturer wants to spent millions or billions of dollars developing micro lasers and whatever else that stupid ass law calls for just to pander to the communists on the coast they should just file for bankruptcy and save everyone in free America the hassle of putting them out of business.

I will not pay inflated prices on non-kalifornicated firearms just to cover the costs of appeasing the gun grabbing commies.

If they can develop a laser that compact that can sear metal who the hell needs firearms? They should sell larger versions of the laser instead. It'd also be out of the jurisdiction of the ATF as well.

Metalhead Gun Owner
August 25, 2006, 04:20 PM
Next they should make it illegal to pick up brass off the ground. That way criminals would have no way of taking the evidence from the crime scene. :rolleyes:

Larryect
August 25, 2006, 04:23 PM
I believe this is actually just another attempt to outlaw all guns :fire: . I don't believe the technology actually exists yet, and as pointed out, is ridiculous :barf: . I doubt that manufacturers will spend the money to comply, effectively stopping sales of auto-loaders in the state.

I hope the manufacturers also refuse to sell to police agencies as well.

So, which auto-loader sould I purchase next?

Valkman
August 25, 2006, 05:13 PM
You can fight all you want, and you should, but it will make no difference. Why? Nationally the Dems who voted anit-gun lost in elections, teaching them a lesson in what the people want. In CA this does not apply because Feinstein and the rest will keep getting elected no matter what - and keep passing this BS. Since I left in '02 it sure hasn't gotten better and it will not. Either get out with the rest of us who're enjoying full gun freedom or find a way to replace those politicians. If that doesn't happen it will only get worse.

I believe this is actually just another attempt to outlaw all guns

Of course it is. There is no interest in this stopping crime, that's just the "excuse" for the bill. It targets gun companies and legal gun owners, like all the "anti-crime" CA bills.

Eightball
August 25, 2006, 05:19 PM
So when the police retrieve the bullet casing at a crime scene, they can quickly track down the legal owner of the handgun that fired it.Did they ever consider that, if it's probably going to be a crime weapon, it's probably going to be used by someone who illegally acquired the gun, and the "tracing" of the "legal" owner is rendered worthless? :rolleyes:

bg
August 25, 2006, 05:29 PM
You can always sign the one click e-mail to the Assembly
without giving your residence. Something like below.
Just about anything positive will help. I hope.

"Name"
"Concerned & Voting Citizen"

Remember, this isn't just Ca. Like a cancer
this bill if passed and signed will continue to
ease it's way until it consumes all. If you think
it won't happen in your state you may be right
for the time being...

But what if the House & Senate fall to the Dems
and one of those people come up with this in
a Federal bill....and it passes ? Do you trust the
current Admin not to sign it into law ? AB 352
could turn into the spark the Nat'l anti gun front
needs to further a Fed gun banishment agenda.
Just look at the current Atty Gen of the U.S. Do you
trust him regarding gun laws ?

Anyway if you would, please send a one click to
the Assembly on AB 352. The end of the yr for
both the Senate & Assembly is next week I believe.
Again..>

http://nramemberscouncils.com/legs.shtml#contactinfo

Nathan Williams
August 25, 2006, 05:50 PM
I think contacting the manufactures would do just as good as contacting their representatives, and govenor. Look at Barret for example they now refuse to sell to any ********** government agency. Find out what manufacturers supply the respective agencies within the state and let them know that those who sell to Kali law enforcement after this horse **** has passed will lose our business. Not just the business of Kali residents but all of us and anyone we know. The manufactures could put up a better fight than us, and if they start losing $ in national sales that may provide the motivation to do so.

Wastemore
August 25, 2006, 06:36 PM
This should be a hoot-

Wait until some LEO has to use his/her weapon in a justified shooting and then get sued for using an "unsafe handgun" that's not on the list.


If a handgun was safe, it wouldn't be a very good handgun.

azredhawk44
August 25, 2006, 06:46 PM
I endorse the idea that we lean on the gun industry.

Glock's guns have no magazine disconnect and currently have no cartridge marking apparatus, but I bet they still sell to CA law enforcement. Same with Beretta. I think all 1911's are the same way, but Kimber loves to brag about selling to LAPD SWAT or some other agency.

Glock
Kimber
Smith & Wesson
Beretta
Springfield Armory
Sig Sauer
Heckler & Koch
Ruger
Remington
Colt
Savage

I bet all these companies sell to CA LE agencies.

Lupinus
August 25, 2006, 06:49 PM
one more reason for me to not live in ************

Yall northern cali people need to break off from southern cali, we give southern cali to the mexicans and keep the northern part

sounds good to me

ArmedBear
August 25, 2006, 06:58 PM
Yall northern cali people need to break off from southern cali, we give southern cali to the mexicans and keep the northern part

You are, of course, high right now, right?:rolleyes:

Look at this map, consider where the population centers are, and see if you really think you want to stick with that plan. (Note the California Democrats are NOT libertarian-leaning when it comes to anything but gay marriage, and maybe pot, though oddly, I've spoken with a number who smoke too much themselves, but still think it should be illegal for other people.)

http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/fotos/2004county.gif

http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2004/11/2004_election_county-by-county/

Nathan Williams
August 25, 2006, 07:14 PM
What Alaska doesnt count anymore? Perhaps we should give it back to Russia. :neener:

Sharps Shooter
August 25, 2006, 07:26 PM
ArmedBear, would you explain that map? I can't make heads nor tails of it. Are the blue areas suppose to represent population centers?

Basura Blanca
August 25, 2006, 07:36 PM
Edited to add for clarity: I'm not upset at y'all because the legislation passed. I'm upset at y'all because not one of you saw fit to scream about it on either of the two busiest gun boards I know, before it passed.

pax

Some of remain busy outside of the world of web forums -gun or otherwise.

Please don't blame the victims for this. It hinders rather than helps our common cause.

zoom6zoom
August 25, 2006, 07:40 PM
Are the blue areas suppose to represent population centers?

They are the counties where the Dems got more votes. (you've heard of "red state, blue state?"). It's not much of a coincidence that most of them do indeed happen to be urban areas.

riverdog
August 25, 2006, 07:47 PM
Yep, it's not NOCAL versus SOCAL, it's LA, SF and most coastal communities versus the rest of the state -- Urban vs Rural.

longeyes
August 25, 2006, 08:01 PM
For the average Californian, guns arent important enough to make them switch parties.

And, apparently, for the average American, the Second Amendment isn't important enough to make them defend the steady erosion of their Constitutional civil liberties.

Sharps Shooter
August 25, 2006, 08:02 PM
Oh, okay. Thanks. I was just confused because the largest blue area on that map in the southern end of California is out around El Centro - not San Diego as I would have expected. Upon closer examination, I can see that San Diego is represented by a tiny spot of blue also.
That blue area in Idaho is up around Sun Valley and Ketchum. That doesn't surprise me. The is a lot of southern ********** leftest freak movie people who have houses there.

ArmedBear
August 25, 2006, 08:04 PM
They are the counties where the Dems got more votes. (you've heard of "red state, blue state?"). It's not much of a coincidence that most of them do indeed happen to be urban areas.

It's not that, though, that I was illustrating.

If you're familiar with California geography, you'll see that the only populated county in the South with a Democrat majority is Los Angeles. Ventura, Orange, San Diego, Riverside, and San Bernardino Counties are Red.

Nearly every populated county in the northern half, however, vote Democrat.

Some Democrats have libertarian tendencies, but not in this state. Our Democrats are hardcore authoritarians. So here, Democrat = Socialist, and Republican can mean anything from Religious Right to Goldwater libertarian.

jlbraun
August 25, 2006, 08:05 PM
One reply at least:

I am opposed to AB 352. Thank you for writing and standing up for our
second amendment rights.

Sharon Runner
Assemblywoman
36th District

ArmedBear
August 25, 2006, 08:05 PM
I can see that San Diego is represented by a tiny spot of blue also.

No it's not.

The Imperial Valley to the east went Democrat, but it's sparsely populated. There aren't that many votes out there.

STAGE 2
August 25, 2006, 08:29 PM
Isn't there a single gunowner in that entire overcrowded state ... just one person ... who is willing to keep an alert and dedicated eye on what the critters in Sac are up to?

It only takes one person to sound the alarm about something like this.

Apparently there's not even one gunowner in the entire state who cares enough to do the work it would take.

Without such work, freedom dies.


I say this will all due respect, but you can take your self rightous attitude and dunk it in a bottle of Hoppes. California gun owners have to deal with ridiculous gun laws, hoardes of gun friendly people leaving the state, and ridicule from those that live elsewhere. What we don't need is to be chastized by someone who doesn't have to live under our conditions.

How small minded are you that you think because people dont post on thehighroad that we aren't doing anything to fight this legislation. What good does it do to run to a place where 1) you are preaching to the choir and 2) less than 10% of the members are actually from california.

In the future I would ask that you do as my mother has suggested over and over again, and not say anything at all unless you have something nice to say.




Post Script: I am neither fat or lazy. Your choice of words, especially in light of the fact that you are a moderator are certainly not the "high road".

Sharps Shooter
August 25, 2006, 08:35 PM
"Look at this map, consider where the population centers are."

Sorry ArmedBear. Maybe it's my eyes or this computer screen, but it appears to me there's a tiny spot of blue where San Diego is - not San Diego County, just the city itself.
Yeah, I know Imperial Valley is sparsely populated. That's what led to my original confusion when you posted that map and stated to concider where the population centers are.

PinnedAndRecessed
August 25, 2006, 08:59 PM
Post script: If arnold signs this thing, look for the next thing to be serial numbering on the inside of each chamber of revolvers. So that when a fired case expands, it to will have a history.

ArmedBear
August 25, 2006, 09:22 PM
Sharps:

Two things. One, I know what the vote was in my city, because I checked at the time. Two, the map only goes by county, so there is nothing to indicate whether any city voted one way or another, except coincidentally SF, which is actually "The City and County of San Francisco."

San Diego's demographic makeup is quite different from LA and SF. Each city has a distinct "feel" and a distinct culture.

The upshot? California should not be one state. The Bay Area folks don't want to be held back by our remaining "reactionary" impulses, either. I think each area should be able to get what it thinks it wants, and see how it comes out in the wash.

But Lupinus shows his complete ignorance about the place if he thinks that he wants to keep the northern half, except for hunting and backpacking.

wuluf
August 25, 2006, 10:02 PM
I just emailed our extremely large governor and urged him to veto this POS. Even if the technology works and the police find brass at the scene, and identify it, seems to me the most likely scenario is that the pistol in question will show up as reported stolen anyway!

i plan to move...

Sharps Shooter
August 25, 2006, 10:20 PM
I did not mean to offend you ArmedBear. And I sure didn't hint that you don't know what the vote was in your own city. I wrote that on MY computer screen with MY eyes it looks like there's a blue spot on that map where San Diego, the city, is. If you say San Diego County didn't vote democratic in the last national election, okay. I believe you.
I was confused because you indicated when you posted that map that it had something to do with population centers. Yes, I agree - it does. But it also shows that major population centers don't always vote democratic. San Diego County is obviously a prime example. In my own state, Idaho, the Boise Valley consisting of Ada and Canyon Counties, is the population center. And they didn't vote democratic either.
Never-the-less, I think that large population centers usually go to the democrats. I also agree that San Diego's demographic makeup is different than LA or SF. My wife was born and raised in San Diego. We visit there often and I have to say her family and friends are nothing like the freak show I read about in San Francisco.

Robert Hairless
August 25, 2006, 10:42 PM
It might be productive if you boycott all products made in California, or at least as many as possible, and inform California's legislature and Governor that you were doing so. You can say, briefly, that California's increasing limitations on the right of ordinary people to defend themselve make you unwilling to spend your money in ways that will keep those politicians in power.

I've just noticed, for example, that we have a container of Sun-Maid Raisins, which are labeled as from sunny California. Raisins aren't an essential. Neither are California wines. E-mail the Governor and the legislators that you won't be purchasing California products.

If a large number of gun owners were to boycott California itself by refusing to spend money on its products because of the politicians' behavior, and if there were ongoing publicity about that boycott, California's voters might come to realize that their pocketbooks will be affected. Economic boycotts work.

sfhogman
August 25, 2006, 10:54 PM
Well, seeing as how my Assemblyperson (Leland Yee) co-authored the bill, I emailed Arnold directly to urge a veto. We shall see what goes down.
In the meantime here's the Governator's contact page:

http://gov.ca.gov/index.php/site/contact-governor

Whether you live California or not, it might be helpful to let him know what you think of this particular brand of social engineering. Please keep it clear, civilized and worthy of the High Road.

Thanks,
Jeff

pax
August 25, 2006, 10:56 PM
Stage 2 ~

If the shoe doesn't fit, don't wear it.

My complaint was about the LAZY, SELFISH, and/or DISINTERESTED gun owners in California who did nothing to either fight this legislation themselves, or to alert others that the battle needed to be fought. This doesn't slam every gun owner in the state -- only the LAZY, SELFISH and APATHETIC ones ... of which there are plainly too many.

The LAZY gunowners are the largest group. They think other people will do the boring and slightly embarrassing work of fighting stuff like this.

Then there are the SELFISH ones. Perfectly represented by a young man who posted on here awhile back, "The reason I said I didn't think autos should be made public is because I don't really want one..." For these guys, it's all about their guns. If they like rifles, they won't fight handgun battles. If they're duck hunters, they won't lift a finger to help the riflemen.

And finally there are the DISINTERESTED or APATHETIC types, the ones who just don't care. Some of them might be overwhelmed or discouraged because they used to care. Some of them never cared. But what they have in common is that they just don't care anymore. Fighting stuff like this is too darn much work, and they aren't going to bother.

If none of these shoes fit, please don't wear them! I complained about gunowners who hadn't done anything to publicize this dastardly legislation, and hadn't fought it. If you did either of those things, I wasn't talking about you or to you.

What did you, personally, do to fight this thing?

pax

ConstitutionCowboy
August 25, 2006, 11:03 PM
It is called the "Californication of Common Sense Syndrome". Anyone lacking a good solid sense of values and logic is susceptible to CCSS. The main problem with the syndrome is the effect it has upon those of us WITH values and logic - WE are the ones who suffer! Anyone with CCSS is oblivious to their disorder. :fire:

We can only hope they continue to procreate slower than we do. A recent study shows conservatives are procreating significantly faster than liberals. Since liberals appear to be the only segment of society susceptible to CCSS, I think time is on our side!:neener:

Woody

To be liberal is to live in a cloud of delusion fraught with fantasy, and a disregard for the law and fair play. Alas; clear fact, unambiguous consensus, scrutiny, and researched reason does prevail and keeps me in touch with who is who, what is what, and why I am conservative. B.E.Wood

ronbwolf
August 25, 2006, 11:12 PM
This passed in the Senate, it still has to pass the Assembly, and be signed. Even NRA was blindsided on this, their alert came out today. Sneaky deceitful, slimy demoncratic scum... oh my, there I go being redundant.

coyote_jr
August 25, 2006, 11:22 PM
How about an official petition from THR to either the CA Assembly or the Governator? We can each choose or not choose to sign it. If we're non residents we can pledge to not visit California, thus depriving them of tourist dollars. If members of THR are Cali residents they can pledge to vote against the Gov or the Assembly members who vote for it. They can also pledge to vote with their feet and move. I doubt it will make much of a difference but it's something. At least I would feel like i am doing something to help out gun owners 3000 miles away from me.

joe4702
August 25, 2006, 11:31 PM
Arnold has vetoed every gun control bill to hit his desk, with the exception of AB50. There is a good chance he will veto this one if enough people speak out against it.

rbernie
August 25, 2006, 11:57 PM
In reply to my one-click email to the CA Assembly, so far I've received a bunch of form letter responses ("thank you for writing" with no position statement, since they're auto-responder emails) and one real response:Thank you for writing. I am opposed to AB 352 or any piece of legislation that would infringe on our right to bear arms.

Sincerely,
Sharon Runner

Assemblywoman

36th District

STAGE 2
August 26, 2006, 12:00 AM
My complaint was about the LAZY, SELFISH, and/or DISINTERESTED gun owners in California who did nothing to either fight this legislation themselves, or to alert others that the battle needed to be fought. This doesn't slam every gun owner in the state -- only the LAZY, SELFISH and APATHETIC ones ... of which there are plainly too many.


And the irony about this is that even if every single gun owner in the state was politically active we probably still wouldn't have the political clout to changs things back to normal. Why? Well, it probably has to do with the fact that every time someone posts about california, 99.9% of people here tell them to leave and join "free america", hurl insults at my state and make wonderful generalizations based on what they read on the news and what they see on TV.

What might be lazy to you might just be pragmatic to others.


What did you, personally, do to fight this thing?

Um... met with several state senators as well as a couple of assemblymen, written hundreds of emails, wrote editorials and law review articles, donated hundreds of dollars to organizations fighting this B.S., and encouraged sane people who may not as yet be gun owners to "help the cause". And you know what the sad part is... I don't even currently live in California. Work has sent me on hiatus for a little over a year.

So let me ask you a question. If I can do all this from another state, how come no one on this board is doing the same. Maybe its because they are lazy and apathetic? I mean it's not their problem since it doesn't involve their freedoms right?:rolleyes:


Post Script: Have you ever lived in Cali?

Hk91 Fan
August 26, 2006, 12:04 AM
Hey Pax,

What did you, personally, do to fight this thing?

sfhogman
August 26, 2006, 12:18 AM
I'm sure that Pax has battles to fight in her own state of Washington. She has a life to lead, is a moderator on this board, and a quick look at her website will show that she is a busy lady. While help from out of state is always appreciated, our battles are our own here in CA.

So far.

Jeff

KenpoProfessor
August 26, 2006, 12:28 AM
That's what I did

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

pax
August 26, 2006, 01:25 AM
Stage 2 ~

Yes. I grew up there, in fact (well, mostly ... we moved a lot). After I got married and our first two kids came along, my husband and I decided that we did not want to raise our family in that environment, and worked our rear ends off to get out of the state. This was before I got into firearms, and well before I had any real awareness of RKBA issues. Why?

Hk91 ~

Not a thing. I don't live in Cali and so I'm not on the front lines there. I do, however, keep abreast of the political situation here in Washington state, and have visited my state reps on several occasions, have picketed MMM-type events, and have shown up at the capital to speak out when there were committee hearings about various RKBA-related legislation.

Jeff ~

I agree with your assessment: Cali battles won't stay in Cali. What happens in California eventually does affect the rest of us. That's one of the many reasons it's good to keep the rest of us informed about what's going on, even when it's a front-line battle that hasn't spread yet.

pax

Robert Hairless
August 26, 2006, 01:41 AM
HK91fan:

Hey Pax,

What did you, personally, do to fight this thing?

Perhaps you didn't understand the message in which Pax complained that nobody from California alerted people here so that they could fight this thing? It's hard to help fight something from a distance when people on the scene don't say that they need help. That aside, shouldn't such fights be led by people on the scene who presumably know its dynamics?

Here's my favorite cartoon about gun owners:

http://blogs.zdnet.com/images/pogo-enemy.jpg

Liberal Gun Nut
August 26, 2006, 02:13 AM
Yeah, this was a surprise thing in California. Frankly there isn't much we could have done about it. The CA legislature is what it is. They do want to ban all handguns in the state and this crazy bill is the first step. There will be few if any semi-autos sold in the state if this passes. That will put a lot of gun businesses out of business, and be the first step towards a total handgun ban. The legislature is not truly reflective of the electoral body because of the heavy gerrymandering in the state, and most of them would be fine with a total handgun ban.

Arnie would be smart to exercise his veto power on this one.

STAGE 2
August 26, 2006, 02:27 AM
Yes. I grew up there, in fact (well, mostly ... we moved a lot). After I got married and our first two kids came along, my husband and I decided that we did not want to raise our family in that environment, and worked our rear ends off to get out of the state. This was before I got into firearms, and well before I had any real awareness of RKBA issues. Why?

Just curious. Most people who trash the state haven't even been here. I'm less annoyed when critical people have at least visited or like yourself actually lived here.

However, isn't sort of hypocritical of you to be condemning when you decided to jump ship yourself. I realize you stated that you left before you became a gunny, but in all honesty I doubt if that would hvae changed anything. After all what is breeding the "environment" is the same thing responsible for these dumb gun laws.

pax
August 26, 2006, 02:40 AM
Stage 2 ~

Again, I wasn't bashing the state. I was bashing only those gun owners who didn't and won't get off their duffs and do what needs to be done when crud like this comes up.

The environment we chose not to rear our children in is the hyper self centered, "money is everything" life in the fast lane that is the Bay Area. That lifestyle is certainly not unique to anti-gunners (plenty of gun nuts join it happily), and we opted to quit that rat race so that our children wouldn't grow up to be rats. Our antipathy to that whole lifestyle would probably have been just as decisive even after becoming politically active gun owners, and if I were faced with the same choice today I would do the same thing again. Only difference now is that I'd probably feel guilty for abandoning my fellow gun nuts when I left the state for the same basic reasons that chased me out back then.

pax

Liberal Gun Nut
August 26, 2006, 02:40 AM
Dude it is because California is highly urban (which tends to be more liberal) and has a very substantial recent immigrant population. 99% of these immigrants come from places where civilian ownership of guns is rare and people have less gun rights than we do here. (1% of the immigrants here come from a tiny number of countries, like Switzerland, that have more gun rights than we have.)

We can fix this by more outreach but it will not be quick or easy.

STAGE 2
August 26, 2006, 03:06 AM
I understand what you are saying pax, but in reality, doing nothing is no worse than leaving. Both are methods of giving up. I don't see how you can be so hacked off at Cali gun owners who are tired of fighting a pretty much unwinable battle when you decided to jump ship yourself.

If anything, its arguably worse since those who have stayed have had to live with the ramifications, while yourself and others who have left get to enjoy the perks of free society.

Some of us, like myself, are stubborn or have access that normal folks don't and are trying to use that to our advantage. I'm not going to begrudge others who have spent years trying to make things right and finally have decided to just look out for number 1 since everything else has essentially be spitting into the wind. Its easy to say we should all fight the good fight when you know you can go out tomorrow and pick up an AK or an AR, several hi-caps, and do it all in your car that doesn't have ridiculous smog restrictions that rob both performance and fuel economy. After all, even though you lived here, by your own admission you weren't really affected by these laws since you weren't a shooter.

mindwip
August 26, 2006, 03:25 AM
I heard ammo companys said that they wont sell ammo in CAL at all(including to LEOs) if this passed has anyone else heard that ammo companys wont sell to cal.??

Art Eatman
August 26, 2006, 12:11 PM
mindwip, odds are that the capital cost of this new equipment is far above anything rational for a manufacturer. It would have to be amortized by the volume of sales at some very-high price--and a very-high price would cut sales. So, odds are against anybody bothering, unless the California government authorizes a budget item to buy the equipment, hire the personnel and produce this ammo.

Best way, now, to fight this deal is to do some homework about the costs involved, contact some manufacturers, and then explain the numbers to the governor. "Crooks will shift to revolvers, sir, meaning more thefts of revolvers. The costs to your police for ammunition for training and carry will rise by $XXX tax dollars per year. Further, the availability of this ammunition will be notably reduced."

Oh: Is the California Legislature bi-cameral? Is there a House of Representatives as well as a Senate? If so, what's going on there in this matter?

Art

Firethorn
August 26, 2006, 12:35 PM
Don't forget that five minutes and one of these:
http://66.77.255.87/Images/DREMELTOOLS/300_D/WEB_PD/300_pd.jpg

will eliminate any markings.

Given that Police guns to go walkabout as frequently as citizen's pieces, I'd sue if there was a police exemption.

longeyes
August 26, 2006, 12:40 PM
Oh: Is the California Legislature bi-cameral? Is there a House of Representatives as well as a Senate? If so, what's going on there in this matter?

Senate & Assembly.

PinnedAndRecessed
August 26, 2006, 12:41 PM
Art, as far as I know, it goes back to the Kal state assembly.

Maybe by then gun manufacturers will have heard of the bill and will get involved.

And if the NRA gets involved (like they did with the San Fransicko gun ban), it might be defeated.

Plus, they've also got to get by arnold. He just might veto it. Doubtful, but he might.

ConstitutionCowboy
August 26, 2006, 01:46 PM
...if there is going to be a trade off with those "stamps" to the tune of removing restrictions and issuing more carry permits.( Disclaimer: The Second Amendment notwithstanding for the sake of discussion. ) After all, it is supposed to make everyone safer, isn't it? It'd be very interesting to watch them choke on that one!

Woody

"Revolution is the Right of the People to preserve or restore Freedom. Those vested with power should never deprive the People the means, for it may compel such recourse." B.E.Wood

Car Knocker
August 26, 2006, 02:04 PM
I heard ammo companys said that they wont sell ammo in CAL at all(including to LEOs) if this passed has anyone else heard that ammo companys wont sell to cal.??

Why would this affect the ammo companies? :confused: It is the guns themselves that will impart the markings to the case, not the ammo companies. There is nothing special done to the ammo by the manufacturers. Or did I miss something? :confused:

The new technology, microstamping, uses powerful lasers to make extremely precise, microscopic engravings on a handgun's firing pin or inside the firing chamber. These engravings reference the serial number of the handgun. When a bullet is fired from the handgun, the marks are transferred to the bullet casing.

megatronrules
August 26, 2006, 02:40 PM
This is absurd all a criminal would have to do is simply pick up the shell casings. And even if he diddn't how is finding the legel owner of the handgun gonna help? Hello! what if the gun is stolen like most guns used in crime are? This is just another way to tag and bag every legel gun owner in california and make a lisr of legelly held handguns.

Art Eatman
August 26, 2006, 04:22 PM
Sorry, Car Knocker. I guess I was thinking of some previous California rhetoric from the Lege about etching the cartridge cases...

Art

bg
August 26, 2006, 04:35 PM
^^^ Yes there was this little sweetheart Art. It was
SB357. We were & are getting kicked in the front as
well as the back when it comes to anti-gun bills.
However this one went where the rest should follow.
File 13.

http://nramemberscouncils.com/legs.shtml?summary=sb357&year=2006

Now if the majority party up in Sac spent just 1/2 of
their time trying to stop illegal immigration and gang
activity as they do on gun banishment bills ,
we'd more than likely have a MUCH safer state.

No it's not.

The Imperial Valley to the east went Democrat, but it's sparsely populated. There aren't that many votes out there.
Not for long. Imperial Valley, El Centro is blowing up !
There's serious talk of building hi rises & casinos down there
around the El Centro area pretty soon. And it is definitely a blue
area. Mostly Hispanic since ag is a big business down there
for the time being and it's so close to the border.

Can'thavenuthingood
August 26, 2006, 06:12 PM
I think the only affect this will have on ammo companies is an increase in sales.

How many microstamps will be allowed on one case?

Have to but only new unfired ammo.

Recycle programs will have to be enhanced and enlarged to handle fired brass as its going to be rendered as toxic materials by the state.

New regs will be installed at gun ranges to preclude the mishandling of fired brass. This will keep microstamped brass out of the hands of criminals and not implicate the innocent.

I've been calling and writing my reps in Sacramento. My Assembly person (Nicole Parra) is a Democrat but progun. Doesn't matter as being from podunkville, her vote is meaningless. The D just adds to the majority.

Vick

Can'thavenuthingood
August 26, 2006, 06:31 PM
This all starts way back, looks like 1999 and affects ALL weapons buyers through increased costs across the board.

Vick


http://info.sen.ca.gov/pub/bill/asm/ab_0351-0400/ab_352_cfa_20050627_154450_sen_comm.html

AB 352 (Koretz)
As Amended May 16, 2005
Hearing date: June 28, 2005
Penal Code
SH:br

SEMIAUTOMATIC FIREARMS - UNSAFE HANDGUN REQUIREMENTS

MICROSTAMPING

HISTORY

Source: Coalition to Stop Gun Violence

Prior Legislation: SB 15 (Polanco) - Ch. 248, Stats. 1999

Support: Attorney General; Women Against Gun Violence; Million
Mom March; Brady Campaign To Prevent Gun Violence;
Nevada County and Sacramento Valley Chapter of the
Million Mom March; Legal Community Against Violence;
Coalition to Stop Gun Violence; California Chapter of
the American College of Emergency Physicians; Orange
County Citizens for the Prevention of Gun Violence;
Sacramento Chapter of Physicians for Social
Responsibility; California Alliance for Consumer
Protection; Friends Committee on Legislation of CA;
Sheriff of Alameda County; Fresno Chief of Police;
Santa Anna Chief of Police; Los Angeles County
Sheriff's Department; LA City Attorney; Violence
Prevention Coalition of Orange County




Sturm, Ruger and Co., Inc indicates that:

By way of a concrete example [of logistical
concerns] the slide assemblies (which necessarily
would contain the microscopic array) for our
centerfire pistols are manufactured on one line
and the frames (which are serialized in accordance
with BATFE regulations) are manufactured on a
separate line. Eventually, these two assemblies
are married to produce a functioning firearm.
Under AB 352, we would somehow have to track these
two assemblies and mate them with each other,
which is totally unworkable under our current
manufacturing processes. We would somehow have to
find a way to reconstruct our entire manufacturing

lines to account for this requirement. This, of
course, does not address issues raised by pistols
that are reworked during the manufacturing
process, pistols that are returned for service and
must have parts replaced, etc. Suffice it to say
that we could provide many examples of how the
implementation of this untested and highly
questionable technology would impose an enormous
financial and logistical burden on manufacturers.
Such a burden, of course, necessarily would be
passed along to law-abiding citizens in the form of
increased prices.

History Prof
August 26, 2006, 09:08 PM
Loss of gun rights in California is, though vitally important to those of on this forum, only minor background noise in terms of what is evolving in California, at least in terms of what preoccupies the people who live here. California is giving birth to the new America, and that will be an ethno-socialist soft dictatorship that should be carefully studied as a harbinger of what the rest of this country can look forward to unless we get both new leadership and a new level of citizen involvement.


My wife is from CA, so my in-laws are always forwarding us political updates on such things as CA Legislatures anti-Christian behavior and its pro-gay agenda.

Gun owners should unite with family groups and Christian groups. You may disagree with them. You may be in favor of gay marriage, even if you're a gun owner. You might not be a Christian. But overall, traditional family groups, Christian groups and RKBA groups are up against the SAME PEOPLE in the state legislature. UNITE with them. Even if you don't agree with them on their issues, I guarantee you that most Christians and traditional familiy advocates WILL agree with YOU on RKBA!







Don't forget that five minutes and one of these:
http://66.77.255.87/Images/DREMELTOOLS/300_D/WEB_PD/300_pd.jpg

will eliminate any markings.

But... but.... that would be ILLEGAL! No one would do that, would they?

lamazza
August 26, 2006, 11:21 PM
This is absurd all a criminal would have to do is simply pick up the shell casings

What does logic or effectiveness have to do with lawmakers?

Mr.V.
August 28, 2006, 05:23 AM
mindwip and Art Eatman --

I think there's a bit of confusion. Mindwip, the bill in question doesn't affect the ammunition itself, it affects the guns. This is Koretz's "microstamping bill" where the gun's firing pin (or similar mechanism) has to make a marking on the casing with the serial number of the gun.

There was, last year, a bill which stalled in the appropriations committee that was the "ammunition serialization bill" (also by Koretz). This bill was really freaky. It would have demanded that each bullet & casing have a unique serial number. Also it would have made criminal keeping ammunition that was not serialized for more than 5 years. Luckily it hasn't reared its ugly head this year...yet. Looks as though Koretz is testing the water with the governer so he doesn't waste twice the effort.

What REALLY sucks? Koretz is my representative :barf:

mindwip
August 28, 2006, 02:48 PM
Thanks for clearing that up, i got confused:o

armoredman
August 28, 2006, 02:56 PM
I would have to disagree, that the nation follows California. We got rid of our AWB, Cali's got worse. We sell 50 cal rifles, Cali does not. Only a few states don't have Shall Issue CCW permits, like Cali. We recognize other state permits more often than not around the US, Cali does not.
Basically, Cali restrictions get worse and worse, while the majority of the rest of the nation tends to get better for gun owners. Katrina style confiscation ban laws, etc, would be UNHEARD of in Cali.
So, I respectfully submit, the rest of the nation sees what California does, and wants no part of it.

rbernie
August 28, 2006, 03:37 PM
So, I respectfully submit, the rest of the nation sees what California does, and wants no part of it.Right now, that's true. But the next Columbine-type incident (and there will, inevitably, be another one) is going to play right into the hands of Pelosi, Kerry, Kennedy, and the rest of their ilk who simply can't stand to see common everyday people empowered in any meaningful fashion. At that point, they turn to the 'model' that is California and trumpet it as the solution to the problems of the day.

United we stand and divided we fall - period.

Gordon Fink
August 28, 2006, 03:56 PM
I was bashing only those gun owners who didn’t and won’t get off their duffs and do what needs to be done when crud like this comes up.

Unfortunately, what really needs to happen is a fundamental change in human nature, an evolutionary change that would favor libertarianism over authoritarianism. The vast majority of people not only accept authoritarian systems but actively embrace them, so this will not happen anytime in the near future.

In the meantime, everything that we do is nothing more than a delaying action. Eventually, we will lose in California, in Washington, and in the rest of the United States. Nevertheless, we must continue the fight … and we will.

~G. Fink

Car Knocker
August 28, 2006, 04:22 PM
At that point, they turn to the 'model' that is California and trumpet it as the solution to the problems of the day.

There's always a chance that the next such incident will occur in CA and will highlight the futility of passing ineffective law after ineffective law.

NevJohn
August 28, 2006, 04:34 PM
More gun laws which wont mean a "hill of beans", but makes the liberals feel good. Can you imagine the cost of the equipment just to read the imprint on the shell casing?? Maybe the state will buy one, and all the PD's will send in their casings for investigation? Then the State can back-bill the PD's for the cost of running the casing, and make money for the General Fund! Yeah, right..

I dont think there will be a California by 2008, the way things are going on in and around the state. Large businesses are moving out, and low wage earners are moving in, so where is the tax base going to be?? Right now, California is 58% Hispanic; mostly on the lower end of the wage scale, and what or how is California going to pay for all the entitlements?? Just glad I moved out of there 7 years ago, and I was a NATIVE.

longeyes
August 28, 2006, 05:10 PM
"California" is just another word for Third World socialism. And, yes, it's coming your way. Semper paratus.

coyote_jr
August 28, 2006, 06:29 PM
"California" is just another word for Third World socialism. And, yes, it's coming your way."

Gonna spread like wildfire through Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, etc. eh?

Rexrider
August 28, 2006, 07:05 PM
Quote:
"California" is just another word for Third World socialism. And, yes, it's coming your way."

Gonna spread like wildfire through Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, etc. eh?

Not like wildfire. There is still a large conservative/pro-gun voter base here in AZ. Yes, I fear it will spread but the antis have a long way to go and no way to get there yet. Even our Democrat governor signed our "No Retreat" bill into law and lowered the class requirements for carry permits from 16 hrs to 8 hrs.

For those of you in Calf who can't take it anymore, we do welcome you here in AZ where your vote still counts.

Monkeyleg
August 28, 2006, 07:07 PM
Coyote_jr: "Gonna spread like wildfire through Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, etc. eh?"

The Western states--NV, AZ, UT, ID, MT, OR, WA, NM, and others--have already been infested by liberal Californians who fled the state and brought their screwed-up values with them. Witness Senate Minority Leader Harry Reid. Or Senator John McCain.

The politics in those states have either already been affected, or are in the process of being affected.

As for the notion that gun companies will refuse to sell to CA government agencies, remember that gun companies are in the business of making money. If the companies tell CA they can't afford the tooling to make CA-legal guns, the CA legislature will simply exempt law enforcement from the requirements.

How many gun companies will then stand up and continue to refuse to sell to CA LEO?

fourays2
August 28, 2006, 07:44 PM
The Western states--NV, AZ, UT, ID, MT, OR, WA, NM, and others--have already been infested by liberal Californians who fled the state and brought their screwed-up values with them. Witness Senate Minority Leader Harry Reid. Or Senator John McCain.


most of our ex-californians are the enlightened ones fleeing socialism. the entitlements here in AZ are pitiful compared to CA so the welfare leaches tend to stay put. we usually get those looking for a relief from the oppressive socialism that is CA. I don't have an excuse for mccain.

rbernie
August 29, 2006, 06:20 PM
I have always been a staunch supporter of gun rights, and so I always oppose laws which are basically created to restrict our 2nd Amendment Rights. For that reason, I have voted against all three of the following bills.

AB 352, Micro-stamping. This bill is in the Assembly for concurrence in Senate Amendments, and will likely come up for a vote tomorrow.

AB 2714, Purchasing ammunition over the internet. This bill is on the Senate floor, and could be voted on any time.

SB 59, reporting theft or loss of a firearm. This bill is in the Senate for concurrence in Assembly Amendments and could come up for a vote any time.

All of these bills require only a majority vote, so they could easily pass with the Democrat majorities in both houses. I would suggest that you start contacting the Governor’s office and ask him to veto them should they reach his desk.

Assemblyman Ray Haynes

leadcounsel
August 29, 2006, 06:29 PM
In about 5 seconds of thought here are several ways around this multi million dollar legislation.

Use a revolver.

Use a brass catcher.

Pick up your brass.

Carry a pocket full of range brass with OTHER PEOPLES' serial numbers and throw 100 pieces of brass on the ground after picking yours up.

Use a pistol made before this legislation passes.

New firing pin or slide and extractor.

UUUGGGGHHHHH............ why are legislaters sooooooo uselessly stupid?

MrTuffPaws
August 29, 2006, 06:38 PM
UUUGGGGHHHHH............ why are legislaters sooooooo uselessly stupid?

They are dumb at all. It is a back door ban.

leadcounsel
August 29, 2006, 06:51 PM
Please see the NEW thread with the following title: Gun Owners Against Liberal state and city governments.

ServiceSoon
August 29, 2006, 08:26 PM
Even if every gun current gun manufacturer decided they didnt want to meet these new standards and chose to sell to the other 49 American states, somebody would start a new company that would sell to California. And that person would reap great benefits.

Gordon Fink
August 29, 2006, 09:29 PM
Damned free-market capitalism!

~G. Fink ;)

lance22
August 29, 2006, 10:16 PM
They forgot the bill requiring gun manufacturers to install electronics on all handguns that would ask "do you really want to fire this gun" before it withdraws the firing pin block. Oh well ... maybe next year.:uhoh:

QuickDraw
August 30, 2006, 01:23 AM
They forgot the bill requiring gun manufacturers to install electronics on all handguns that would ask "do you really want to fire this gun" before it withdraws the firing pin block. Oh well ... maybe next year.

Press 1 for english,2 for spanish!:D

bg
August 30, 2006, 01:54 AM
I should bring to point that language was added witch will
allow the Atty Gen to req any and all ammo to be
serialized without going to the legislature for an ok
to do so.

http://releases.usnewswire.com/GetRelease.asp?id=71376

The National Shooting Sports Foundation (NSSF), the trade association for the firearms industry, said today that Senate passage of AB 352, legislation which will mandate the use of unreliable, patented, sole-sourced technology to micro stamp firearms and allow the Attorney General to require bullet serialization of all ammunition is ill-conceived and will result in a ban on ammunition sales in the state, burdening sportsmen, hunters and firearms enthusiasts.
So for those that thought they wouldn't be affected
by this moronic bill, like skeet shooters, cowboy
action shooters, plinker's, etc, well you have
another thought coming! I've written my Assembly
Member a lot and he knows and is voting NO on
AB 352 & 2714 so that helps. But so many of the
stinking gun banishment front have brain washed
those in the majority party, I'm not sure if these
bills can be defeated.

I just keep sending one click e-mails everyday
and calling different members of the Assembly.
My long distance bill is going to put me in a hurt
this month, but it's nothing compared to the crap
that will follow if these bills become law.

Librarian
August 30, 2006, 03:50 AM
I should bring to point that language was added witch will
allow the Atty Gen to req any and all ammo to be
serialized without going to the legislature for an ok
to do so.This may be true - but the on-line version of the amended bill does not have that language. Sometimes the web page for a bill isn't updated in a timely fashion.

bg
August 30, 2006, 04:12 PM
^^^ Follow up. I too just re read the bill and haven't
seen the amended version, but I do have this from
the CRPA. Maybe it's a scare tactic, I don't know. But
I do know one thing AB 352 is a terrible bill. From
the way I interpret the bill, ANY semi auto new or
used that doesn't have this micro stamping
nonsense incorporated into it would be illegal.
Am I wrong on this ?

I would like the option of selling mine legally here
in Ca should I decide so, but it seems this bill
would make that illegal..It's very short reading.

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/pub/bill/asm/ab_0351-0400/ab_352_cfa_20060828_225817_asm_floor.html

1)Required, beginning January 1, 2007, all semiautomatic pistols
not already designated as safe handguns, as specified, to be
equipped with microscopic characters that identify the make,
model, and serial number of the pistol etched into the
interior surface or internal working parts of the pistol which
are transferred by imprinting on each cartridge case when the
firearm is fired.

2)Provided that, commencing on January 1, 2007, no handgun may
be submitted for required safety testing, as specified, unless
the handgun is equipped with a microscopic characters that
identify the make, model, and serial number of the pistol
etched into the interior surface or internal working parts of
the pistol and which are transferred by imprinting on each
cartridge case when the firearm is fired.
2007 has been changed to 2009. It has NOT been voted
by the Assembly this morning the 30th, but it will soon
be so as the end of the period is tomorrow the 31st.

This is from the CRPA link regarding all ammo.
http://www.crpa.org/showpages.asp?pid=1266

SB 357 (Dunn), bullet serialization, has been stopped in its tracks and amended to be used for a totally different non-firearms related purpose. HOWEVER, BULLET SERIALIZATION HAS COVERTLY BEEN SNEAKED INTO AB 352!!!!! The backers of bullet serialization apparently think that FIREARMS OWNERS ARE NOT SMART ENOUGH TO NOTICE!!!!! As now amended, AB 352 would give the State Attorney General the power to simply mandate bullet serialization by regulation. TO MAKE MATTERS WORSE, THE BILL DOES NOT SPECIFY THAT THE ATTORNEY GENERAL MUST FIRST HAVE PUBLIC HEARINGS BEFORE MANDATING THAT BULLET SERIALIZATION BE REQUIRED!!!!!
Sorry for the long posts, but this is important not only
to us out here in Ca, but you can believe the gun
banishment front is biting at the bit for a chance to
get this going nationwide.

Travis McGee
August 30, 2006, 04:48 PM
Reason 97 why I'm glad I left Cali.

gezzer
August 30, 2006, 06:48 PM
Again the answer is NO NEW GUNS FOR CA not police, national guard, none at all. I would also include no AMMO. That’s what the Politicos in CA seem to want give it to them. :cuss:

PinnedAndRecessed
August 31, 2006, 12:33 AM
Reason 97 why I'm glad I left Cali.


Tell the truth, Travis. You miss San Diego.

I've lived in Florida and I've lived in **********. The gun laws in the latter are a pain, but I know you miss the weather. And the food. And being able to be in the mountains with a few hours drive.

For me it was Tahoe, the Sierras (I really miss them), the Sequoias, the Redwoods, Fisherman's wharf (didn't you just love the chowder served in bread bowls?), Spicer Meadow Reservoir, Baker, Yosemite, and real Mexican food.

Moved to Oklahoma late last year.

On the other hand, I attended the last Wanenmacher gun show. 4000 tables of honest-to-goodness guns. I walked for a solid three to four hours and thanked heaven I could see the last row of tables. Then I discovered there was a whole second floor of tables.

I've never been beaten by a gun show before. I went home.

kbheiner7
August 31, 2006, 12:59 AM
Dremel :D

solareclipse
August 31, 2006, 02:37 AM
So when the police retrieve the bullet casing at a crime scene, they can quickly track down the legal owner of the handgun that fired it.


this is the most priceless quote ever

must be cool to NOT be the legal owner

BJPZOO
August 31, 2006, 03:23 AM
I am glad I dont live there!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mr.V.
August 31, 2006, 03:39 AM
Thanks for clearing that up, i got confused
Actually, you were right all along. They added ammo serialization. My apologies for not appreciating your clarevoyance :( .

No_Brakes23
August 31, 2006, 04:07 AM
I voted with my feet. Still paying for a CRPA membership, though. Maybe that will help some.

I wanted to "Stay and Fight", but my protecting my family was more important, and Cali's asinine cost of living made that move an even easier decision, despite my wife and I giving up two lucrative careers in Real Estate.

Good luck for those of you still there.

The extreme left of the Dem party is something that should have died a natural death like communism, but Repub flub-ups and bigotry keep it alive. it is amazing to me that the Libertarian party doesn't have a larger presence in Cali. As pointed out earlier, 2a rights are hardly the only ones in danger in the Orwellian hell that once great Eden of California is becoming.

STAGE 2
August 31, 2006, 10:57 AM
Here's an interesting philosophical question. Should California ever turn itself around with respect to firearms and otherwise, would it not be justifiable to deny the return of people who left. Of course this could not be done legally, but why should those who decided to give up the fight enjoy the rewards gain by those who stayed.

Keith Wheeler
August 31, 2006, 11:32 AM
Here's an interesting philosophical question. Should California ever turn itself around with respect to firearms and otherwise, would it not be justifiable to deny the return of people who left. Of course this could not be done legally, but why should those who decided to give up the fight enjoy the rewards gain by those who stayed.

Huh? So be expressing my personal liberty to get the heck out of Dodge (or San Diego) and live my life the way I choose I'm a "traitor" to the "cause" of freeing California?

I don't think so. I mean, let's put it another way.

Since you probably didn't fight on d-day, do you deserve the "rewards" of not being forced to speak German by a national socialist country?

Can'thavenuthingood
August 31, 2006, 11:59 AM
AB 352 Microstamping and it appears Serialization has not yet passed to the Governors desk. It is in the Assembly and has been voted on twice yesterday. The last vote was about midnight with 39 Yes and 37 No. It is up for reconsideration and can be voted on again at any time.

Assembly is to reconvene @ 10:30 AM thursday, 31 August for last day of session.

Most of the guys from calguns.net have been up all night calling. So here's your chance to get into the action and help stomp this thing into next year.

Vick
--------------------------------------------------------------
AB352 failed again just before midnight. This time by a vote of 39 yes to 37 no. THE BILL MAY BE VOTED ON AGAIN SO KEEP UP THE PRESSURE.

Assemblyman Leland Yee changed his vote from "YES" to "NOT VOTING." (as good as a "No" vote for defeating a bill)

It would be good if folks would also call him at (916) 319-2012 and THANK HIM FOR NOT SUPPORTING AB352.

They have adjourned for the night, they reconvene at 10:30 AM. G'night. (yawn)

Mike

EddieCoyle
August 31, 2006, 12:51 PM
It would be good if folks would also call him at (916) 319-2012 and THANK HIM FOR NOT SUPPORTING AB352.

I just called. I hope this does not pass. If CA passes this bill, MA will be next.

Flintlock Tom
August 31, 2006, 02:36 PM
How many votes are required for a "majority" in the Assembly?

bg
August 31, 2006, 03:02 PM
It would need 41 to pass I believe. My long dist bill is
in a hurt now, but it's of little matter when it comes to
something as serious as this. We out here in Ca MUST
keep up the fight.

The four Assembly Members below have so far voted
NO on AB 352.

HCI is running phone banks trying to convince
4 Assembly Members to change their vote to yes.

Here they are.
Name -------------------- Sac office ------- Local office
Joseph Canciamilla ------ (916) 319-2011 --- (925) 372-7990
Shirley Horton----------- (916) 319-2078 --- (619) 462-7878
Gloria Negrete McLeod -- (916) 319-2061 --- (909) 621-2783
Tom Umberg ----------- (916) 319-2069 --- (714) 285-0355

If any of you out there could afford it, maybe you will
call each of these Assembly Members, thank them for
voting NO on AB 352 in the past, and ask them
if they would continue to do so today, the 31st.
It only costs a few cents, and a minute or so of
your time.

THIS IS IT. This is the last day for business up in Sac
for the legislature.

Thanks to the NRA and Mike Haas for the heads up over
at Calguns.

Can'thavenuthingood
August 31, 2006, 03:52 PM
This from Mike Haas up at Sacramento, said to spread this far and wide.


From Paul Payne: THE LAST DAY

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Paul's in direct communication with Ed at the capitol and can only occasionally post/email. he asked me to communicate the following.

Mike
-----------
To All:

Your efforts remind me of a couple of my favorite excepts from Shakespeare's HENRY V

================================================
Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more........................

We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother; be he ne'er so vile,
This day shall gentle his condition;
And gentlemen in England now-a-bed
Shall think themselves accurs'd they were not here,
And hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks
That fought with us upon Saint Crispin's day.
================================================

This is the last day of this two-year legislative session.

No one can say that the NRA Members' Councils of California didn't take the fight to the legislature, because we did.
No one can say that the NRA Members' Councils of California weren't organized and effective, because we were -- and are.
No one can say that the NRA Members' Councils of California didn't push until the end, because we will.
No one can say that the NRA Members' Councils of California weren't on the offensive in 2006, because we have been and have two pro-gun bills (signed into law) to prove it.

And no one can say that Ed Worley and I, and the NRA leadership, is not extremely proud of your efforts, because we are!

No matter what happens today, you have fought for the Second Amendment and the NRA and make us all proud.

The legislature is now back in the Capitol and we are in the final hours. Anything can happen. Last night, your efforts (led by Ed's direction) held AB352 on the Assembly Floor on multiple votes. It will be back today!

We will focus our efforts for maximum efficiency.

Please call the following legislators and ask them to OPPOSE AB352!

Name -------------------------- Sac office
Joseph Canciamilla ----------- (916) 319-2011
Shirley Horton---------------- (916) 319-2078
Gloria Negrete McLeod ------- (916) 319-2061
Tom Umberg ----------------- (916) 319-2069
Leland Yee ------------------ (916) 319-2012

IMPORTANT NOTES:
- Tom Umberg switched his vote to a "YES." Urge him NOT TO SUPPORT AB352
- Leland Yee switched his vote to a "NO." Urge him to continue to OPPOSE AB352
- The others have not supported AB352. THANK THEM and urge them to continue to OPPOSE AB352

<<< CIRCULATE THIS MESSAGE TO ALL GUN OWNERS SO THEY CAN HELP IN THIS EFFORT >>>

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Last edited by mikehaas : 08-31-2006 at 11:36 AM.

No_Brakes23
September 1, 2006, 04:11 AM
Here's an interesting philosophical question. Should California ever turn itself around with respect to firearms and otherwise, would it not be justifiable to deny the return of people who left. Of course this could not be done legally, but why should those who decided to give up the fight enjoy the rewards gain by those who stayed.
Well, that's a rotten attitude, since I don't want my tax and commerce dollars going to finance a corrupt Orwellian stain on our nation's honor, you think I shouldn't come back?

Don't worry, despite having a great deal of love for California, the cost of living will keep me away. Being a notary public signing people's refinance paper work in California was a huge eye-opener. Good house in a safe neighborhood near anything resembling civilization? $650k if you are lucky. $300k for a house in the middle of the desert? $500k for a house with methlab neighbors? No thanks, even if Cali was 2a heaven, I wouldn't be coming back.

But your craptastic attitude is a huge part of what has ruined that state.

BTW, have you spent at least one term of enlistment sworn to defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic? Do you think that those who haven't need to leave the country or perhaps not be allowed to enjoy Constitutional freedoms?

STAGE 2
September 1, 2006, 03:48 PM
But your craptastic attitude is a huge part of what has ruined that state.


Quite the contrary. If blame can be laid on anyone besides the liberals who pass insane legislation, is is with every single person who has thrown up their hands and left. At the end of the day these things come down to numbers and every person who has left has weakened things for those of us that are determined to change this state.

Quite the contrary, its my attitiude and the attitude of those like me that managed to defeat the microstamping bill last night. If more of you would hvae stayed its possible that such a bill would have never even passed the senate.:rolleyes:


BTW, have you spent at least one term of enlistment sworn to defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic? Do you think that those who haven't need to leave the country or perhaps not be allowed to enjoy Constitutional freedoms?

No, actually I have devoted my career to upholding the constitution. And no I wouldn't suggest that those who havent leave the country. However similar to the way that soldiers look upon people who have used the freedoms so costly fought for to denigrate the military and what they stand for, I will look upon those who left california when the going got tough only to return when things are nice and ripe, with disdain and disgust.

The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.

Is a 3 car garage and a couple of rifles worth your freedom?

KMBRTAC45
September 1, 2006, 05:58 PM
Got this e-mail this afternoon.



'Microstamping' Bill Defeated by California Assembly

(CNSNews.com) - A bill before the California Assembly that would have mandated the "microstamping" of semi-automatic handguns was defeated Thursday night. The measure (AB 352) would have given cartridges fired from those guns a unique imprint, which gun control advocates say will help police solve crimes. Second Amendment supporters, however, say the bill is another attempt to burden gun manufacturers and restrict gun sales in California. "We are thankful that common sense and sound public policy prevailed," said Lawrence G. Keane, senior vice president and general counsel for the National Shooting Sports Foundation, trade association for the firearms and ammunition industry. "This legislation would have forced an unproven, costly and easily defeatable technology upon both firearms consumers and taxpayers, and would have resulted in a ban on all ammunition in California," said Kean. See Earlier Story

Jim Diver
September 1, 2006, 06:31 PM
This from the NSSF

Firearms Microstamping, Bullet Serialization
Defeated in California Assembly

Major Victory for Industry

Legislation before the California Assembly (AB 352) that would have required microstamping of firearms and bullet serialization of all ammunition was defeated last night by a vote of 38–34. As a testament to the collaborative efforts of the National Shooting Sports Foundation (NSSF), National Rifle Association, California Association of Firearms Retailers and the California Rifle and Pistol Association, the Assembly refused a request by bill sponsor Assemblyman Paul Koretz for reconsideration of the legislation.

AB 352 would have mandated the use of unreliable, patented, sole-sourced technology to microstamp firearms. Perhaps even more troubling, the Attorney General would have been given the power to require bullet serialization of all ammunition, a mandate that would have resulted in a ban on ammunition sales throughout the state, hurting sportsmen, hunters and firearms enthusiasts.

“We could not be more pleased with the outcome of this vote,” said Lawrence G. Keane, senior vice president and general counsel for the NSSF. “This legislation would not only have forced an unproven and costly technology upon both firearms consumers and taxpayers, but it would have allowed for the banning of all ammunition in California.”

A recent independent, peer-reviewed study published in the professional scholarly journal for forensic firearms examiners proved that the technology of microstamping is unreliable and does not function as the patent holder claims. Furthermore, it can be easily defeated in mere seconds using common household tools, and criminals would be able to simply switch the engraved—“microstamped”—firing pin for readily available, unmarked spare parts.

Opposition to the microstamping and ammunition banning legislation was not limited to the firearms industry; major law enforcement groups and those concerned with higher taxes also voiced concerns. AB 352 would have led to significant price increases for firearms consumers, estimated at as much as $150 per firearm, and all California taxpayers would have been forced to foot the bill for microstamped law enforcement guns.

“We have always said that further research into microstamping, like the study currently being conducted at the University of California, Davis, would be necessary before the legislature considers mandating this very dubious technology,” added Keane. “By defeating AB 352, the California Assembly passed a measure of common sense.”

No_Brakes23
September 3, 2006, 04:59 AM
Is a 3 car garage and a couple of rifles worth your freedom?
That doesn't even make sense. By leaving California, I can afford a nice house, (Far short of a 3 car garage, though,) a few rifles AND I get my freedom.

Tell you what, no ideals are worth making my kids live next to a meth trailer.

Look, I understand the ethos of "If you don't come to Cali, Cali will come to you," and I don't think Cali is a lost cause, but what you don't seem to understand is that I simply could not afford to stay the fight.

I am not talking about opulent mansions with 3 car garages. Housing 2 hours away from my work had already become unaffordable, and I don't feel like saddling myself with an nearly unbearable mortgage to live in a godforsaken rural area hours from anything surrounded by meth users and sellers.

Near the Coast, From Petaluma to Imperial Beach housing is well out of my reach, and the inland area from Yreka to El Centro is utterly absorbed by the Methampetamine Trade. But it broke my heart to leave California. I love to ride my motorcycle and drive my car in the amazing canyon roads of San Diego and Santa Monica. I love living by the Pacific that I have spent the better part of my Marine Corps career serving on. I love standing in snow on Laguna mountain looking down on the rocky desert floor of the Imperial Valley. I love driving 80mph on the freeway and not getting pulled over by CHP. I will miss a lot about California, but I just can't justify staying there in a stagnant never-getting-ahead existance any longer.

Funds alone are what kept me from being in the OLL group this last Christmas. Hell, my last firearms purchase was the end-run Kel-Tec SU-16CA. I didn't move to Washington just to be able to legally own an AR-15, I did it so I could live.

Like I said I will maintain my CRPA membership, and continue to buy from Cali firearms companies, (Like Knoxx and Mesa Tactical,) but my pro-2a vote and my family by necessity have gone elsewhere. If you think that means I shouldn't be welcome back in Cali, then so be it.

PinnedAndRecessed
September 4, 2006, 08:12 PM
Congrats to you californians. On the 1911 forum one of the posters said that he called his assemblyman's office and the receptionist knew why he was calling before he said anything.

The receptionist said their phone lines had been flooded with calls objecting to the law.

Good for you.

BTW, I just got back from trout fishing in the Ozarks in Arkansas. Say what you will about that state, it sure is beautiful. Caught a ton of trout, too.

ndh87
September 4, 2006, 08:28 PM
can we just go ahead and disown California before this nonsense spreads to any of the other states?:banghead:

Blackfork
September 4, 2006, 08:30 PM
Once again, the Law Enforcement agencies are leading the way in protecting freedom, liberty, and the Bill of Rights they swore an oath to uphold and defend.

The LAST news I THINK I heard is that this got shot down in the California House. It will be filed again.

Bills like this get filed in nearly every state, but usually die in committee. You wouldn't believe the bills that get filed in Texas that the TSRA steers into the garbage can.

cbsbyte
September 4, 2006, 09:16 PM
To bad for Californians though I am sure most people in the state, including some gun owners are supportive of the Bill. This will also spread to other part of the US, mainly Northeast states whose legislators useally adopt many ideas from the West Coast. New York, New Jersey, Maryland, and Massachusetts will have there own versions of the bill within a few years time. Hopefully we can head them off before its too late.

stlgunfan
September 4, 2006, 09:16 PM
Yep. Just like one State rep her in MO proposed a bill that only certain color firearms would be legal. Didnt go anywhere.

Creeping Incrementalism
September 5, 2006, 02:10 PM
The LAST news I THINK I heard is that this got shot down in the California House. It will be filed again.

This was already a two-year bill, so hopefully it won't come up for a third time in the next legislative session.

However, there is an ammo bill currently on Arnold's desk that would require ID for ammo deliveries and allow local pre-emption of state gun laws for ammo orders, which coud be very damaging because big cities might totally prohibit home ammo delivery.

PinnedAndRecessed
September 9, 2006, 01:12 PM
Ndh87 said, can we just go ahead and disown California before this nonsense spreads to any of the other states?

Trust me, you want to help **********ns to reform their state. Because if they continue to leave, they're liable to come to your town.

Granted, the pro 2nd amendment **********ns wouldn't be so bad. But both of them have already left. I was one.

For the rest? They come to your town. They were raised with an attitude of entitlement. They insist upon having control of your local politics. And if they cannot? Then they protest. And burn down residential construction projects. And torch SUV dealerships.

They also run through the woods during hunting season, screaming, "Run Bambi, it's man!!!!"

Surreptitious **********ns have already occupied and conquered Washington State (Seattle), Oregon (Portland), Denver, Nashville, Tulsa, Austin and Atlanta.

It's not a pretty picture.

[tongue-in-cheek = off]

longeyes
September 9, 2006, 01:38 PM
Stop blaming Californians for socialism.

It's everywhere.

Including the White House.

Wake up.

PinnedAndRecessed
September 9, 2006, 01:53 PM
Don't be so sensitive.

See the bracketed statement?

"Tongue-in-cheek" means it's supposed to be humorous.

ccw9mm
September 9, 2006, 02:00 PM
I dont see how it's supposed to stop crime. It's not like criminals are gonna trade in their old guns for new ones that can microstamp the bullets.
Like most other firearms laws, in practical terms it covers only the law-abiding folks and the guns that get into "the wild" through burglaries. California represents ~12% of the population, so firearms mfrs. are certainly going to take notice. Worst case is: no new sales of newly-mfrd arms will occur in California, prices will skyrocket, and criminals will just ignore all of this. Likely reality: folks will simply keep buying older weapons or get them via other avenues, and criminals will ignore all of this. :rolleyes:

ChestyP
September 9, 2006, 05:17 PM
before you get your panties in a wad, follow up. The state SENATE passed the bill. The ASSEMBLY did not. Ergo, CALIFORNIA DID NOT PASS THE AMMO BILL.

It was defeated in the ASSEMBLY shortly after the Senate vote, by a 4-vote margin IIRC (two votes last year).

It's gotta pass BOTH chambers before it goes to the governor. That's true in Congress, and it's true in 49 states (Nebraska has a uni-cameral legislature).

Art Eatman
September 9, 2006, 05:24 PM
And that's that...

Art

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