Do you call the cops?


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LightningJoe
August 26, 2006, 01:18 PM
You're in a deserted parking lot one night and you're attacked by a lone individual. You're sure the guy is armed and intends to harm you.

1] You reach for your gun. He sees you reach and runs away. Do you call the cops?

2] You draw your weapon. He sees your weapon and runs away. Do you call the cops?

3] You draw your weapon and fire it, but you don't get a good grip on it and you're sure you missed. The guy runs away. Do you call the cops?

4] You fire your weapon and you're confident you hit the guy. The guy runs away. Do you call the cops?

5] You fire your weapon and hit the guy. He falls down and you're absolutely certain he's dead as a doornail. Do you call the cops?

6] You fire your weapon and hit the guy. He's incapacitated, but you can tell he's alive and may be saved by prompt medical attention. Do you call the cops?

7] You fire your weapon and hit the guy. He's incapacitated, but he starts yelling. "I'm going to sue your ass off! My dad's a trial lawyer who's made millions off goofballs like you! I'm your worst nightmare!" Do you call the cops?


People who carry guns presumably intend to use them for self-defense. They will have to answer one of the above questions or one like it if their gun ever earns its salary. Somewhere in all the mess above is the high road. But where?

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Azrael256
August 26, 2006, 01:22 PM
Yes.

Geno
August 26, 2006, 01:25 PM
Without question yes, always!

Edited to add:

Don't drive there to report it, thus leaving the scene, call the police ASAP. See the recent thread about an ex-LEO who shot and killed a scumbag and shot (and I think wounded) a fellow friend of the dead scumbag. The injured scumbag escaped, called and reported a murder before the ex-LEO arrived to the police department. Promptly upon the ex-LEO's arrival to the PD, he was arrested, charged and is now awaiting trial.

See lead-in statement.

Doc2005

Low-Sci
August 26, 2006, 01:30 PM
1) Yes. Protect the next guys who get there too.
2) Yes. Still a good idea.
3) Yes. They need to know that you shot, where, at what, why.
4) Yes. Same as 3, but add that someone may need medical attention.
5) Yes. And by the way, welcome to hell.
6) Yes. You can explain the situation when they arrive; get an ambulance.
7) Yes. What he's saying doesn't have any impact on the situation.

haole_boySS
August 26, 2006, 01:31 PM
1-2 No
3-7 Yes

Geno
August 26, 2006, 01:34 PM
If you do #1 and/or #2, then fail to report, you might be charged with brandishing. It becomes a lop-sided he-said.

Doc2005

beerslurpy
August 26, 2006, 01:37 PM
Always yes. If you had a confrontation with another person involving your gun, you should immediately contact the police. The stance the take in resolving the situation will be heavily shaped by the initial contact. It is better to start with a clean slate than by having to debunk the lies of the other guy and then explaining to the police why you didnt bother reporting that you drew on someone.


1) Brandishing and use of force should be reported to the police. Mere confrontation- use your judgement. The reason is that brandishing and use of force are both crimes unless you have a defense in employing them. The cop isnt going to hear about the reasons from the guy who was attacking you- he will only hear that a crime has been committed by you. Dont subject yourself to the risk. Call the cops first and make sure they have the story.
2) Empty the magazine into assailant, walking fire up to the CNS. If you can't justify killing him, then you shouldnt have shot him in the first place, should you?

depicts
August 26, 2006, 01:39 PM
Yes to all questions. To protect yourself and other citizens, you should immediatly call the police.

Vitamin G
August 26, 2006, 01:56 PM
1] Yes
2] Yes
3] Definately
4] Absolutely
5] Without Question
6] Most Certainly
7] In about 20 minutes... :neener:

Biker
August 26, 2006, 02:02 PM
I'd agree with Haole Boy, generally speaking.

He must've lived in Wahiawa.;)

Biker

gunsmith
August 26, 2006, 02:15 PM
just to much paper work & hassle.

Most miscreant crack heads would just assume your an off duty cop.

If I got the feeling that he was going to report it to the police I would call first.

I've pulled my gun on a crack head (indexed finger and pointing at the ground)
to keep him from cornering me and he left. I didn't expect a problem and didn't get one.

psyopspec
August 26, 2006, 02:17 PM
Yes to all.

limbaughfan
August 26, 2006, 02:56 PM
yes to all but with 7 i would shoot him again,if it were in a legal situation

Alex45ACP
August 26, 2006, 03:04 PM
Just remember, dead men tell no tales.

;)

Superpsy
August 26, 2006, 03:47 PM
#1 gives me the impression of him seeing me reaching but not actually seeing the gun. I would say yes for 2-7 but #1 isn't brandishing, is it? Of course, it makes sense to call the cops since the first to call gets to be the victim most of the time.

Chuck Dye
August 26, 2006, 04:42 PM
My first reaction was "Yes to all." LEOs have memories and create institutional memories for other LEOs. Get as much of a description of the bad guy and his MO into the record as you can.

Then I considered my own history and realized that LightningJoe’s thread starter does not specify whether the intended victim is carrying lawfully. By my own acts I have said no to question 2, once for convenience, and twice because going on public record as having had a handgun where and when I did would likely have created far more trouble for me than the bad guys I drove off.

Edit: Ooops! Sorry folks, I lost track of the parameters, the convenience no-call did not involve "is armed and intends to harm you." Of the other two, one was a first degree burglary turned armed robbery attempt, the other a straight on armed robbery attempt, both of the guns-beat-knives variety.

Dmack_901
August 26, 2006, 05:16 PM
It would be a real shame if your cell slipped out of your hands and into the gutter on number 6.

But Huck Phinn has the real question. What if you we're just at a bar and we're slightly intoxicated. Or more mundane, you know you havn't renewed you ccw.

KINGMAX
August 26, 2006, 05:19 PM
around my house, we don't dial 911 :evil:

Geno
August 26, 2006, 05:23 PM
One of the first questions asked of me of me in this incident:

http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=2641535#post2641535

was "Do you have your MCPL with you?"

Doc2005

PennsyPlinker
August 26, 2006, 05:36 PM
No to 1 and 2. Yes to the rest. I have had to draw my handgun twice since I started carrying it 15 years ago. In both cases the bad guys instantly desisted from their intent to harm, and disappeared quickly. The first time was actually humorous after it was all over. Actually, both were kind of humorous after they were over. But I think they might be exceptions to the rule.

Lupinus
August 26, 2006, 08:50 PM
yes always

He who calls first, is right.

Why?

Because that is the story the police hear first and the one that is in their minds, from then on anything you say is a counter story.

I don't want to chance that he isn't going to call the police saying he was jsut walking along and some nut job pulled a gun on him.

PennsyPlinker
August 26, 2006, 09:11 PM
He who calls first, is right.

Maybe, maybe not. A couple of weeks ago I had to go talk to my neighbor about his kid hanging around my business, which just happens to be on my property. I've had several confrontations with this guy, mainly about his dog running loose on our property and going after our small backup dog. The guy can't seem to understand why that makes me unhappy. But anyway. Last January a window was broken on my shop, and I am about 95% sure his kid did it, based on some physical evidence. Long story, but I never accused him of anything. Anyway back to the story. His kid was hanging up by my shop, and ran when he got hit with headlights of someone pulling into our driveway. So I went to ask him about it. He immediately blew a fuse and started screaming in my face, threatening to blow my head off with a shotgun for harrassing him. He also threatened to call the police. I encouraged him to do so, stating that I would wait right there until they arrived. He backed down.

The next day, when I arrived home from church, I discovered that the police had been by several times looking for me. I called the police officer station and told them I was home and would be for the rest of the day. The officer arrived, and in a very gruff manner, asked for my side of the story. By the time I had gotten just a few minutes into my story, the officer was laughing and agreeing with me that my neighbor was the problem. Of course, he then straightened up with a very serious expression and said, "Officially I am neutral, but personally, you have a bad seed, and you need to watch out for and stay away from him, because he is trying to set you up. But I will go and set him straight about the dog and his kid trespassing."

So getting there first might be a help in some cases, but the truth still counts for something.

Oh, and the shotgun threat? I reported that too, and the officer started laughing again. He said, "He doesn't even own a shotgun."

"How do you know that!?!", I said.

"Because he said he was so scared of you he thought about running into the house and grabbing his shotgun. His wife spoke up and said, 'What are you talking about, you don't even own a shotgun!' "

How dumb can you be to lie to a cop about a gun you don't even have? :what:

Lupinus
August 26, 2006, 09:14 PM
True you aren't always wrong but I would rather be the story teller then the rebuffer.

As to not owning a shotgun my mother lives with me and doesn't know about most of the toys I own, and I doubt my future wife will either ;)

PennsyPlinker
August 26, 2006, 09:21 PM
I thought about that possibility as well, but there are times when you just get a sense about someone. This guy is all bluster, a bag of wind with a pair of lips. And even if he had a shotgun, if he had run into the house after the threat, he would have emerged to see two autos, one in each hand. I don't go around yelling about them, but I always have something with me. :evil:

Superpsy
August 26, 2006, 09:28 PM
"Because he said he was so scared of you he thought about running into the house and grabbing his shotgun. His wife spoke up and said, 'What are you talking about, you don't even own a shotgun!' "


Ha! :D

kludge
August 26, 2006, 09:56 PM
1 & 2 Yes. If he is intent on hurting/robbing someone, I would definitely call. the next guy down the street might be an unarmed target. I'd tell them he was armed, give a description and tell them they should send a patrol out. I would also say "I didn't stick around cuz you never know if he had 'friends.' "

3, 4, & 5. Yes, when I have reached a point of safety. The gunshot will probably be reported anyway. And then I'd follow up just like #1 & #2. He might have 'friends' nearby.

6. Yes, that's just being human. But I would not put myself in danger to do it, and I would say that if you are in fear of your life, you are justified in running away to safety before calling 911.

7. Yes, you might be sued anyway. In Indiana the person who defends himself from deadly force is immune from civil liability.

Hawkmoon
August 27, 2006, 12:58 AM
Do you call the cops?
Yes.

Hoppy590
August 27, 2006, 03:38 AM
well being im too young to carry, most those options are off the table for me. if hes armed with say, a knife il pull my surefire, give him a blast of light. maybe punch him in the throat (NEVER underestimate the punch in the throat) and take off like a bat out of heck! THEN call the cops. if thes armed with a gun.il give him mywallet if thats what he asks for. not like hel make it far before i cancel the credit cards and call the bank and cops. if its some kind of hostage taking, il rip his heart out of his chest with my bare hands if need be. at the moment money isnt that important for me to try to fight this guy unarmed.

Socrates
August 27, 2006, 04:17 AM
NONE OF THE ABOVE!!!
CALL YOUR ATTORNEY, FIRST. THEN FOLLOW HIS ADVICE.

EACH SITUATION IS GOING TO VARY, ACCORDING TO STATE, LAWS, SITUATION.

S

kengrubb
August 27, 2006, 04:47 AM
Yes in all of the cited scenarios, I call 911.

Some might hedge on #1 and #2 and not call 911. Well, consider this.

You reasonably believed you were going to be harmed, right? So what makes you think this guy, while running away, is thinking, "What the heck was I thinking? Make a little extra cash doing strong arm robberies. Yeah, right. I'm going back to my barrista job first thing Monday."

I suppose it's possible, but it's more likely he's thinking something like, "THAT was way too close. OK, note to self. No more robbing: guys in camo, guys wearing NRA ballcaps, guys with shaved heads or military haircuts, or guys with goatees. They are stone cold f***in' crazy and carry guns. Gonna find me an old lady in a walker."

IOW, this guy victimizes people. The sooner you call the cops, and the sooner they arrive, the more likely they will apprehend him tonight. After about an hour, odds of finding him are probably about nil.

If he harms or kills someone else later, and you didn't do what you could when you could to help the cops catch him--and I mean doing stuff that's legal like call 911 as opposed to illegal things like shooting him in the back and dragging him to the nearest railroad crossing while tied to your rear bumper by a 10 foot stretch of rope--what happens if he makes the news for a murder and you recognize him?

If he gets away, but you called the cops and gave them every stitch of description you could remember, then you've done all that you can do and there is no guilt or shame on you.

If you're even remotely human, you will probably nonetheless feel some sense of guilt, but if you can honestly say you did all that you could then that person in the mirror likely won't hold it against you for very long.

Don't Tread On Me
August 27, 2006, 05:19 AM
1] You reach for your gun. He sees you reach and runs away. Do you call the cops?

No. Getting the police involved can be a very inconvenient process. However, I probably should have shot the thug since there's either a deadly force situation or there is not. Some police (not all, a few bad ones) will even suggest or imply that you are guilty in some way or treat you like a potential criminal.

2] You draw your weapon. He sees your weapon and runs away. Do you call the cops?

Yes. Once he sees your weapon, 100% guaranteed that peice of garbage will call the cops on YOU. Describing the weapon and making up his own story. This happened to my friend - and he didn't even draw! Fortunately, the firearm description was wrong.

3] You draw your weapon and fire it, but you don't get a good grip on it and you're sure you missed. The guy runs away. Do you call the cops?

Yes. Your bullet has gone somewhere, the thug might have seen your gun, and you've just made a LOT of noise.

4] You fire your weapon and you're confident you hit the guy. The guy runs away. Do you call the cops?

Yes. So hopefully they can put him in prison incase he doesn't die.

5] You fire your weapon and hit the guy. He falls down and you're absolutely certain he's dead as a doornail. Do you call the cops?

Yes. Forensics will get you if you don't. Can't live in paranoia. Also, there's no reason not to - you're the victim, not the criminal.

6] You fire your weapon and hit the guy. He's incapacitated, but you can tell he's alive and may be saved by prompt medical attention. Do you call the cops?

Yes. But I won't risk my life in any way shape or form to expedite or facilitate this piece of garbage's medical attention.

7] You fire your weapon and hit the guy. He's incapacitated, but he starts yelling. "I'm going to sue your ass off! My dad's a trial lawyer who's made millions off goofballs like you! I'm your worst nightmare!" Do you call the cops?

This is the same as #6 with the exception that he's made his post-recovery intents known. I'd call the cops yes. Again, I wouldn't be running like crazy for a phone.


Almost none of this will play out like that. If there's a deadly force threat - I intend on shooting to defend myself. There's really no other way. I will shoot until the threat is stopped. That means no more threatening advancement (sorry, no coup de grace). However, if the dirtbag is on the ground bleeding out and still has a firearm in his hand (he's still a deadly force threat even on his back) - I'm going to keep perforating him if I am trapped in his vicinity, or will run away if the option is there. Depends.

Double Naught Spy
August 27, 2006, 09:08 AM
Y'all are funny! It was a trick question and most of y'all missed a critical detail or simply are okay with being attacked by another person.

Do you call the cops?

Regardless of 1-7, you were attacked...

You're in a deserted parking lot one night and you're attacked by a lone individual. You're sure the guy is armed and intends to harm you.

Given the number of people on this forum who claim to carry, in part, to help protect others, I find it somewhat amazing by the number of responses where folks would not call the cops. Assuming the guy who attacked you wasn't particularly mad at you for something you did to make him mad, any scenario where he gets away means he is just another bad guy out on the street left to attact somebody else, maybe one of those innocent victims many THRers could not live with themselves for not protecting if they had a chance.

dfaugh
August 27, 2006, 09:17 AM
You're sure the guy is armed and intends to harm you.

How sure? Did/do you see a weapon? Did he physically assault you?

If you answered no to the above, you shouldn't even be considering most of these scenarios, as they'll get you in trouble, in most places.

However, if you DO have a legitimate right to draw your weapon, then the answer is Yes, call the cops. Tell the police "I was in fear for my life". Then shut up, until you can get a lawyer.Gotta play the CYA game.

PCGS65
August 27, 2006, 09:29 AM
I'll stick with #1 and no. No one gets hurt and maybe he finds another line of work.:)

Lone_Gunman
August 27, 2006, 09:34 AM
7] You fire your weapon and hit the guy. He's incapacitated, but he starts yelling. "I'm going to sue your ass off! My dad's a trial lawyer who's made millions off goofballs like you! I'm your worst nightmare!" Do you call the cops?

If he is able to say all that, he probably is not incapacitated and is still a threat. Shoot until the threat ends.

Biker
August 27, 2006, 09:45 AM
When possible, I usually avoid cops in their official capacity. No offense to cops, I just like to fly under the radar.

Biker:)

PCGS65
August 27, 2006, 09:54 AM
by Biker, When possible, I usually avoid cops in their official capacity. No offense to cops, I just like to fly under the radar.
Yea Biker, ya never know when they will put some drugs in your car then arrest you for possession.:eek:

Firethorn
August 27, 2006, 10:41 AM
If I've actually been attacked, I call.

#1 is the only 'iffy' one in my mind. I can play off a reach for my gun as reaching for a cellphone/wallet. Once it's become visible, well, might as well call.

Erebus
August 27, 2006, 10:41 AM
he is just another bad guy out on the street left to attack somebody elseBingo! Even if I am not legally responsible if he runs off and kills someone when my phone call could have prevented it I will feel partially responsible. My avoidance of inconvenience isn't worth risking an innocent life.

As far as the shotgun guy if someone threatens to blow your head off and goes to get the shotgun you run back into your house and call 911. You have a tactical advantage as it's your house and he has to find you and when the cops show up and he is dead on your floor it's a lot clearer than if he's dead on the lawn. And if the cops show up before any shots are fired all the better, he's in your house with a shotgun!! Looks real bad for him. A standoff across a property line will be real tough for the cops to tell what's happening.

Why would you not call the cops if your neighbor threatened to kill you with a shotgun? Especially since you can never be 100% sure he doesn't have one. At least after that if an incident occurs there's a report that indicates you very well may have to defend yourself.

strambo
August 27, 2006, 12:26 PM
#1 is iffy especially if I just reached and nothing was exposed. Good point about getting the cops after this guy to protect others. I guess if the cops had a realistic chance of catching him I'd call. Definite yes on 2-7...unless I'm in another country on a secret agent mission.:scrutiny:

ilbob
August 27, 2006, 01:08 PM
Definite yes on 2 through 7.

One number 1, I think there might be some wiggle room. But likely you should just so the cops know something is going on and maybe they can keep someone else from being attacked. Not real likely, but you just never know.

In all cases I think I might want to get posthaste to a place that was a mite safer before doing any calling. You never know if the guy is behind the next bush..

haole_boySS
August 27, 2006, 03:05 PM
I still stand firm on NO for 1 & 2.
You're in a deserted parking lot one night and you're attacked by a lone individual. You're sure the guy is armed and intends to harm you.
So which is it? Are you being attacked or aren't you? If not, you have no reason to tell him you are armed, much less reach and draw right?
1] You reach for your gun. He sees you reach and runs away. Do you call the cops?
He sees you reach and he runs??? I assume this is AFTER you tell him that you are armed and will defend yourself with deadly force if needed. So if you did tell him and you actually have to reach and he runs...so what if he calls the cops on you. He better have a spotless record like yours. You have to be spotless to have a CCP right?
him: "Ossifer, this upstanding citizen reached for something that might have been a gun when I was trying to make him a victim"
me: "Officer, I never drew or reached for my weapon. I notified him that I was armed and would protect myself" "he fled the scene. I never had to draw my weapon"
I'll take my chances with my word against his.
2] You draw your weapon. He sees your weapon and runs away. Do you call the cops?

Brandishing is Brandishing right? My father told my brother and I all the time...If all other options have been exhausted and you MUST aim your weapon at another human.....you had better be pulling the trigger. Dead men tell no lies. Second thing he told us was to never shoot someone in the back. So if by chance that I did draw and the BG turned and fled before I had him in my sights....then I would reholster and walk away.
So again, I would not call the cops and still take my chances with his word against mine.
The only variable to this senario would be if someone else had been near by and saw what happened. Then I would be obligated to report the incident.

Thanks Biker, and I agree with you too. I'd like to stay under the Police radar.
BTW, I was in Wai'pio...not Wahiawa ;)

mp510
August 27, 2006, 04:03 PM
1] You reach for your gun. He sees you reach and runs away. Do you call the cops?
Yes, I wouldn't want him to have the oppertunity to make false allegations against myself, and I would also like to avoid having a unknowing bystander call in to report a 'crazed maniac with a gun' call.
2] You draw your weapon. He sees your weapon and runs away. Do you call the cops?see #1

3] You draw your weapon and fire it, but you don't get a good grip on it and you're sure you missed. The guy runs away. Do you call the cops?Definetely. A round was discharged, and it is necesary to call it in.

4] You fire your weapon and you're confident you hit the guy. The guy runs away. Do you call the cops?Yes. It is necesary. Addituionally, it is important that he does not go to the cops first and say the shooter was the aggressor.

5] You fire your weapon and hit the guy. He falls down and you're absolutely certain he's dead as a doornail. Do you call the cops?Yes. Most likely, if one does not, once the PD believe that you fired the shot, you will be on less than friendly terms.

6] You fire your weapon and hit the guy. He's incapacitated, but you can tell he's alive and may be saved by prompt medical attention. Do you call the cops?Call the police and make sure they know an ambulance is needed too.

7] You fire your weapon and hit the guy. He's incapacitated, but he starts yelling. "I'm going to sue your ass off! My dad's a trial lawyer who's made millions off goofballs like you! I'm your worst nightmare!" Do you call the cops?
I don't see why the threat of a civil suite should prevent one from doing the right thing. YES.

hoji
August 27, 2006, 04:13 PM
Let me put this spin on it.
1-2, what if you lived in Chicago and knew you would be arrested for a felony?

LkWinnipesaukee
August 27, 2006, 07:10 PM
I'm going to say all but #1. You see, I live in MA, and the police WILL find a way to take away my permit. Even if its you reporting that you reached for your gun, they'll find some way to twist in their favor so you lose your permit.


The others, you really have no choice. Ex. Number 2, if someone else saw your weapon and called the police... etc.

LkWinnipesaukee
August 27, 2006, 07:13 PM
How about this:

You do the same on your property, to a man who is clearly trespassing. If he had a bat? knife? gun?



edit-- I LOVE these hypothetical situations. Keep em coming!!!

American By Blood
August 27, 2006, 07:24 PM
I generally try to avoid interacting with police and other representatives of the state. However, in all of the outlined situations I'd call the cops.

Why? Because the other guy might.

I don't have the link handy, but there's an ongoing saga over at Sigforum where one of their users drew down on an armed homeless guy who was looking to rob him. The would-be thief fled and the CCW-holder thought that was the end of it. Well, Mr. Crackhead (who has an impressive rap sheet) decided to call the cops. Being that this was Philly, our friend the Sig fan was treated like a criminal and had to undergo a months long legal ordeal of charges, having his permit destroyed by the Philly PD (so they could claim he was illegally carrying), having everything in his house related to firearms (up to and including paper targets) confiscated, etc. He has since been exonerated but the Philly PD has been less than helpful/legal in returning his property.

Things were likely going to go poorly for this guy seeing as how the incident took place in Philly, but they might have gone a bit better had he been the one to dial 911.

mp510
August 27, 2006, 09:53 PM
Let me put this spin on it.
1-2, what if you lived in Chicago and knew you would be arrested for a felony?

I seem to remember a thread about righteous shooting in San Fran where the victim split, for obvious reasons...

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