American gun owner fined $5000 in Canada


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TIZReporter
August 26, 2006, 08:29 PM
Judge lashes out at tourist over guns and lying to border

http://www.edmontonsun.com/News/Canada/2006/08/26/1777646-sun.html

Judge lashes out at tourist over guns and lying to border guards

By PAUL TURENNE AND BOB HOLLIDAY, SUN MEDIA
Sat, August 26, 2006

WINNIPEG -- An American tourist who lied to customs officers in
Emerson,
Man., about having loaded handguns in his motorhome - including a
"Saturday night special"- was given $6,500 in fines and a tongue
lashing
from a Winnipeg judge earlier this week.

Delmer Tibbits, a 65-year-old South Carolina man, tried to enter Canada
at the Emerson border crossing Tuesday morning. He and his wife had
just
finished visiting their son in Grand Forks and were thinking of driving
their old GMC bus, which had been converted to an RV, across Canada and
into New England.

But Tibbits ran into problems when border guards asked him if he had
any
weapons.

He was asked at least three times if he had firearms and each time he
said no.

But when officers searched his RV, they found three loaded handguns in
a
closet: a .22-calibre Ruger and .357-calibre Ruger, both of which are
restricted in Canada, and a .25-calibre FIE Titan, which is prohibited
altogether north of the border.

"You knew pretty darned quickly that you were lying and you just kept
up
the lie. You were given many opportunities to come clean and you just
kept up digging yourself in deeper," said Judge Sid Lerner, who at a
hearing Wednesday in Winnipeg handed Tibbits a $5,000 fine and tacked
on
a $1,500 civil penalty to get his RV back after the man pleaded guilty
to one count of smuggling.

Tibbits was held in jail Tuesday night and was kicked out of Canada
after his court appearance. His guns were seized and destroyed.

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Hawkmoon
August 26, 2006, 08:31 PM
Idiot.

He's lucky they didn't lock him up for an extended period.

1 old 0311
August 26, 2006, 08:36 PM
I have read of guys getting busted for having a few loose rounds in their trunk.:cuss:

Snake Eyes
August 26, 2006, 08:39 PM
I have read of guys getting busted for having a few loose rounds in their trunk.

Not in Canada. Mexico maybe. As recently as 5 years ago there were no restrictions on taking ammo into Canada.

I taken 3000++ rounds in myself, just because I'm too lazy to take the range ammo in from my truck.

Of course, I always declared it if/when asked.

Geno
August 26, 2006, 08:42 PM
Well, I could say a lot. Wisedom? Didn't come with his age. now, if he had tried this in old Mexico...oh no! He would be rotting in jail. I can't say that I feel sorry for him.

Doc2005

Euclidean
August 26, 2006, 09:16 PM
First, okay, shame on him for lying, but that's not the real issue.

You're all missing the point, no government has the right to take away the rights of a human being to defend themselves. They have no business asking the question in the first place.

As a rational human being, I have the right to be armed to protect myself regardless of who is in charge. My rights come from my being, not from a piece of paper with some words written on it endorsed by the king of whatever place I am in. It matters not where I am, the depths of space included.

No one is obligated morally to follow any such law, however I will agree that he acted foolishly in not considering the consequences of his actions and I've no sympathy for him.

I am outraged that the Canadian authorities would even ask such a question, because no one is obligated to answer it, which makes me wonder if the American authorities ask a similar question of Canadians coming into the U.S. If so, I need to write some letters, because it would be silly to get mad at foreigners for doing such a thing if my country does it too. I wonder if anyone can tell me if this is the case? I'd never even considered it before.

SigfanUSAF
August 26, 2006, 09:16 PM
All I can say is:
I used to live in a Maine bordertown. The legal drinking age in New Brunswick was 19. Guess where all us 19 and 20 year olds went? We always had a DD (not Drunk Driver btw) and honestly never tried to carry guns over the border. I must say I'm glad, because in a two year period, me and my friends were delayed 1 to 2 hours a half a dozen times at the border while the RCMP detail search our vehicles. When they were done, after not finding anything, we tried to put the cars back together and head on to the clubs. Funny, we never once got either an "I'm sorry" or a "F*** YOU", just "OK now, you boys have a good night now, ay". Note that this was a pre-9/11 world, and only happened going in. Could've smuggled a darn elephant back into Maine.

Standing Wolf
August 26, 2006, 10:26 PM
Moral of story: stay the !@#$%^&*! out of socialist countries.

Hypnogator
August 26, 2006, 11:07 PM
Can't say I feel sorry for him. The judge was right -- he was given multiple opportunities to come clean.

I don't agree with Canada's stance on weapons, but it's their country and their laws. I don't take my motorhome across the border for the same reason -- too many firearms inside. When my wife and I decided to visit Canada, we parked the coach in Maine and took the Moto-Guzzi for a 900 mile ride through New Brunswick, Prince Edward Island and Nova Scotia. Had a great time 'till the last day, when it rained like the proverbial cow on the flat rock. :eek:

proud2deviate
August 26, 2006, 11:18 PM
$6500? In Canadia??

That's like $23.50 in the US, ain't it?

;)

baz
August 26, 2006, 11:29 PM
I'm appalled, of course, at the attitude of the Canadian government, but given the variation in local laws and ordnances, even in this country, anyone traveling with guns who does not check out the laws before they go somewhere is stupid. To lie about it was to be stuck on stupid.

I wonder what would have happened if he'd said "Yes, I have some guns, why, are they not allowed in Canada?" Would he have been allowed to turn around and go home, guns intact?

SomeKid
August 26, 2006, 11:57 PM
If they let me out and threw me back home before making me pay, they would never see that $6500. Maybe a letter with a picture of my middle finger, but no money.

Or, maybe a letter directed to the judge that said 'You got three of mine, but I have plenty more.' Then given HER a tongue lashing.

Hawkmoon
August 27, 2006, 12:56 AM
$6500? In Canadia??

That's like $23.50 in the US, ain't it?
More like about $6,000

The exchange rate has gotten almost back to what it was when I was a kid (a looooooooong time ago). Back then, the Canadian quarter was worth 26 cents American, and in Maine Canadian and American currency were freely exchanged at face value, as if there was no rate of exchange.

Robert Hairless
August 27, 2006, 01:34 AM
I often see people in Internet gun forums advocate breaking laws like that one. Almost invariably they talk about a higher law and usually say "Better to be judged by twelve than carried by six."

In this case Delmer Tibbits followed that advice, was judged by one instead of twelve, and was assessed a $6,500 fine after he pleaded guilty to a charge of smuggling. If smuggling is considered a felony, Delmar probably will not be able to own or possess firearms lawfully for the rest of his life.

Creeping Incrementalism
August 27, 2006, 01:41 AM
Do Canadian border police make it a regular habit to search all vehicles coming across their border?

Byron Quick
August 27, 2006, 02:00 AM
If smuggling is considered a felony, Delmar probably will not be able to own or possess firearms lawfully for the rest of his life.

Even if the smuggling charge is considered to be a misdemeanor, he's got a record that will get him a detail search every time he crosses any international border.

Given he was in a vehicle from a state in the US known for having favorable gun laws, he was probably certain to be searched. Canadian border guards probably have a point system to trigger searches in the absence of obvious red flags. South Carolina, Tennessee, or Georgia plates, for example, get higher points than Maryland, Massachusetts, or California. RV's get more than sedans, etc.


If they let me out and threw me back home before making me pay, they would never see that $6500. Maybe a letter with a picture of my middle finger, but no money.

Or, maybe a letter directed to the judge that said 'You got three of mine, but I have plenty more.' Then given HER a tongue lashing.

Ever tried to get out of paying a government? I wouldn't be surprised to find that the US government has a reciprocal agreement with the Canadian government-you collect from Canadians for me and I'll collect from Americans for you. You try your little tricks and find your house being auctioned by the sheriff. Come to find out the FBI considers your cute photo to be "assault on a foreign official" that could be evidence of terrorism.

When you decide to snap at a government, friend, you'd best either be a mighty big dog or one that is mighty hard to find.

jashobeam
August 27, 2006, 02:48 AM
Quote:
I have read of guys getting busted for having a few loose rounds in their trunk.

Not in Canada. Mexico maybe. As recently as 5 years ago there were no restrictions on taking ammo into Canada.

I taken 3000++ rounds in myself, just because I'm too lazy to take the range ammo in from my truck.
A friend told me this story about his experience at the Canadian border. Apparently, the customs agents when inspecting a vehicle are permitted to search inside any ONE bag that is readily accessible (if your trunk is filled with duffel bags or suitcases they can examine one of the ones on top, but not dig down and select one from the bottom of the pile). The bag they selected from my friend's car contained his fishing tackle--and a loaded magazine for a Sig pistol. They asked him where his gun was. Though he insisted that he did not bring his pistol, they continued to search. They went through every bag and searched the entire vehicle. Next they told him that if he did not tell them where he was hiding his handgun they were going to completely dismantle his car. They also said that they would not provide him with any tools to reassemble the vehicle. He swore up and down that he did not have the gun with him. They decided to terminate their search and told my friend that he would be free to leave once he paid them $300 to get his car out of impound. He did not have that much cash and they would not take credit cards. They made him walk back into the US to the nearest town to obtain cash.

He also said that his wife, because she admitted to having a DUI conviction, was strip-searched, interrogated, and told that DUI convicts are not allowed to enter Canada.

From: http://www.liddles.com/374.html
DUI Charges and Other Issues

Our Canadian Immigration and Visitor regulations restrict persons with convictions that would be considered criminal charges in Canada to enter Canada. If you have had a DUI (driving under the influence) charge against you, any time in the near or far past, and if it shows up on your records in the US (which can be accessed by our Customs & Immigration officers through co-operative agreements between the US and Canada) then you may be denied entry to Canada. Random checks are common.

A one-time application can be made at the Canadian border for approximately $200 Cdn., taking up to 4 hours to complete, or a permanent application for visitor entry can be made through the Canadian Embassies in the US for a lesser amount ($35 Cdn.); however, this process can take up to 16 months. Some visitors with such convictions have been successful by pre-arranging their border crossing application and carrying letters from their home police force, clergy, etc. indicating their compliance with the rules over the past few years (at least 5 years). We suggest you communicate with a Canadian Immigration office prior to your planned trip if you have such a past charge.

tellner
August 27, 2006, 03:13 AM
He lied. He was breaking the law and he knew it. Screw him. He got off easy.

"No government has the right"? Maybe not according to your philosophy or religion, but if you're interested in real governments and real history, then they do have the right to make their own rules. If you enter another country you either abide by their rules, stay home, or expect to get punished.

leadcounsel
August 27, 2006, 03:32 AM
To those of you who uphold the law, no matter how inane the law is, where do YOU personally draw the line and do you ever break the law?

Do you speed? Ever run a red light? Walk you dog off lease where restricted? Own a "restricted" firearm? Give one of your perscription painkiller pills to someone else?

Just curious?

Vote with your dollars and NEVER willingly support nations and states with laws that you disagree with.

tellner
August 27, 2006, 03:39 AM
Nice try leadcounsel, but no cylindrical tobacco product.

This isn't a heroic act of civil disobedience against tyranny. It's an arrogant, lying jerk who thinks other countries' laws don't apply to him on their soil. He deserves no sympathy from us.

deadin
August 27, 2006, 10:09 AM
Do you speed? Ever run a red light? Walk you dog off lease where restricted? Own a "restricted" firearm? Give one of your perscription painkiller pills to someone else?

Nope!:)

I have also found that "attitude" has a lot to do with getting through a border station without trouble. (Yours, not the agent's)) Come on like an ass and they will treat you like one. Start spouting off about your "rights" and they will demonstrate their "rights".
Also, as pointed out in another thread somewhere, by the time you get to the Canadian border station,you are already on Canadian soil and have already broken Canadian law if you have an illegal (by Canadian standards) firearm. They have every (Canadian) right to confiscate it and fine you.

Dean

SigfanUSAF
August 27, 2006, 10:14 AM
As per my previous post on this matter, neither me nor my friends ever got arguementative or hostile with the border guards. Every time they searched us they weren't really being rude either. Maybe 5 guys hanging out of a Cutlas made them nervous???????

rock jock
August 27, 2006, 10:40 AM
Last time I checked Canada is a sovereign nation.

Third_Rail
August 27, 2006, 10:59 AM
"Do you have any firearms in the vehicle?"


"Oh Heavens no! I hate those awful things." :D

Cesiumsponge
August 27, 2006, 11:12 AM
I am curious why he was specifically asked three times, then searched anyways. Is that standard procedure, or could they tell by gestures and expressions that he was lying about a firearm and gave him three opportunities to admit it?

I've heard plenty of Canadian border hassle on both sides (Americans harassing Canadians, Canadians harassing Americans). That's just the way it goes now I guess. Anyhow if you're going to enter someone else's country, you're going to have to follow their rules since it isn't your house anymore...or just not go.

deadin
August 27, 2006, 11:18 AM
Maybe 5 guys hanging out of a Cutlas made them nervous???????

Possibly. Or it could have been the Camo jackets, "Glock Rules" T-shirt, NRA decal, "I support the Second Amendment" bumper sticker or a host of other signals that tripped their "profile". It's a crap-shoot.:evil:

Dean

Erebus
August 27, 2006, 11:21 AM
I am curious why he was specifically asked three times, then searched anyways. Is that standard procedure, or could they tell by gestures and expressions that he was lying about a firearm and gave him three opportunities to admit it?

It's called profiling, you know that really effective method of determining who you need be suspicious of and give more scrutiny. You know the method we don't use here cause it might offend someone.

Delmer Tibbits, a 65-year-old South Carolina man, tried to enter Canada at the Emerson border crossing Tuesday morning. He and his wife had just finished visiting their son in Grand Forks and were thinking of driving their old GMC bus, which had been converted to an RV

They assumed as soon as this thing got close it had guns in it.

MisterPX
August 27, 2006, 11:30 AM
I wonder what would have happened if he'd said "Yes, I have some guns, why, are they not allowed in Canada?" Would he have been allowed to turn around and go home, guns intact?

Yes, he would have been free to go back across the border. Happened to me once. I was with a freind who failed to let me know he had a pistol in the trunk as we were crossing the bride out of Detroit. Told the border guard, he pretty much said "OK, you can drive up past the substation over there and make a U turn" No problems at all. However, US border guards detained us for a couple hours.

Robert Hairless
August 27, 2006, 02:45 PM
leadcounsel:

To those of you who uphold the law, no matter how inane the law is, where do YOU personally draw the line and do you ever break the law?

Do you speed? Ever run a red light? Walk you dog off lease where restricted? Own a "restricted" firearm? Give one of your perscription painkiller pills to someone else?

Just curious?

Vote with your dollars and NEVER willingly support nations and states with laws that you disagree with.

Nope, you're not "just curious." You're attempting to argue ad hominem and, if you don't mind my saying so, doing it badly because you assume that honest answers to your questions will support your argument. A lead counsel should know enough not to create such traps for himself. I'll answer those questions of your with pleasure. I don't speed or run red lights: I comply with traffic laws and I'll continue to do so even when I see you speeding and ignoring red lights. I don't allow a dog off a leash where it's prohibited, and I won't do it even where it's not prohibited if there are other people who could even possibly be harmed by my dog. I don't own a "restricted" firearm, won't own one, and will leave the area when you try to show me yours. I don't give or sell prescription painkillers or other narcotics to people, wouldn't take yours if you offer it to me, and I would report you to the police if I saw you doing it. I'm not a special person and I don't think myself entitled to break laws I don't like. What other laws do you violate besides traffic and animal safety laws, firearms laws, and narcotics laws?

Some other questions for you. Are you a special person who has the exclusive right to choose which laws to obey? Or is everyone who owns a firearm also a special person with that same right? Does that right extend only to you, other firearms owners, and other special people or is everyone else entitled to behave the same way by picking and choosing the laws they'll follow and those they will ignore?

For example, Mayor C. Ray Nagin and his police chiefs in New Orleans believe that they have the right to confiscate firearms in the city despite the Second Amendment. How firmly do you support them and other city officials in their decision that we're all better off if only law enforcement or the military can have firearms? Do you support their right to ignore the Second Amendment and follow their own belief in some higher law that makes it okay to do that? Is that why you approve of Mayor Michael Bloomberg's belief that it's okay for him to have New York City hire people to entrap Georgia firearms dealers because he doesn't approve of the way the BATFE is doing its job?

A great many people assume the right to ignore U.S. immigration laws because they believe that their own higher duty is to provide for their economic welfare. Don't illegal aliens have the same right to disobey laws, especially the laws of a foreign country, if they have their own reasons for not obeying those laws?

Fanatical Muslims who murder and kidnap civilians assert religious laws that are superior to manmade laws and give them not only the right but the duty to destroy non-believers. Just this morning Hamas proudly "secured the release" of two Fox journalists that their own people kidnapped and forced to convert to Islam at the point of the gun. How much support do you think should be given to Hamas and other terrorists because they are following the dictates of their higher laws?

From time to time there are people who murder other people and claim that God ordered them to do it. You don't know that God didn't tell them to kill their families, neighbors, or strangers, so don't you support those folks who do as you urge and kill people they think need killing?

Your argument would make it almost pointless to work for changing bad laws or those you call "inane." Why should anyone spend a moment of their lives to change laws that they're not going to follow anyway? The only point in doing so is to evade the penalties for not following them, but a principled person of such high moral characted as to have his own set of laws shouldn't be concerned with penalties incurred by violating laws imposed by others. As one person advocated here, if you're caught you can promise whatever is needed to escape the penalty and ignore your promise once you're free: after all, you're a person of high moral character.

Meanwhile back in the real world those lame "higher law" and "greater morality" arguments that people try to use in justification of their illegal behaviors distorts the doctrine of competing harms. The exposition of it in Maine's criminal code seems good enough:

Conduct which the actor believes to be necessary to avoid imminent physical harm to himself or another is justifiable if the desirability and urgency of avoiding such harm outweigh, according to ordinary standards of reasonableness, the harm sought to be prevented by the statute defining the crime charged. The desirability and urgency of such conduct may not rest upon considerations pertaining to the morality and advisability of such statute.

zeke1312
August 27, 2006, 03:33 PM
Wait a minute, who would want to Canada in the first place? Fishing? Right, as if we don't have fishing here. That goes for anything else. Hell, stay out of that touchy feely country that shelters deserters from the US military. I'am going to write a letter to Bill O'Reilly and ask him to start a boycott of Canada. (Tongue in cheek). Maybe GM should move their plant(s) back here.

Wonder how many NRA members they have? I don't like all those Canadians coming to Arizona anyhow. Let'em freeze their dounuts off where they are. I wonder of Ted Nugent hunts in Canada? :barf:

The Drew
August 27, 2006, 03:46 PM
If I were to attempt to take a handgun into Canada, I'd really have already broken NY law and If caught there, I'd probably be in much more trouble than a $6000 fine....

alumltd
August 27, 2006, 04:05 PM
:eek: What do CCW holders do at a border crossings... even if they are not carrying/storing/transporting firearms?

Based on the event here, it seems as if it would be absolutely insane to display the fact... or do border crossing guards not count as law officers?:confused:

jcb
August 27, 2006, 04:13 PM
I used to live in the Detroit area and enjoyed going to Canada for shopping etc.. Not anymore! I stay the H away from that place. We, Freedom loving Americans, are not liked in Canada. The things I heard coming from there right after 9/11 really ticked me off. Now, I don't like that nation and I won't go there. Period! Why would that old fool even want to go there is beyond me.

pete f
August 27, 2006, 04:15 PM
Heres the deal, Canada makes about 40% of it income from tourism, and that tourism does not come from japan or the EU. The last two times we went to the border, we crossed without incident because the crossing we used was backed up for blocks with guys either going fishing or goose hunting.

I have sent Emails to the canadian consulate asking them if they wish for us to continue, they need to swallow the holier than thou attitude and face facts, they are out of touch and need to adapt to us. I have gotten back some really really Irate answers and some that say, Yup, your right, we depend on you and for us to make your visits unpleasant is suicidal.

When ever we meet real canadians who live west of toronto, we are shocked at the hatred they hold for the socailists that run Ottawa. Man, if you think we were against billary, They openly talk about getting a clear shot at the PM. I have not been up there since Harper was elected but I saw several shirts with Shoot Martin, or similar when talking about Cretien.

No one where we went liked them at all. but with the electorate falling into such small areas, it was very easy for them to take four or five cities and end up winning.

Harper is a conservative but is still an eastern guy, coming from Toronto. The people I know are not at all thrilled with him but after the debacle that was Cretien and Martin, anything has to be better than they were.

tellner
August 27, 2006, 04:25 PM
I have broken the law - sped, gone through stop signs and parked illegally. When caught I never fought it even when - in the case of the parking tickets - I could have gotten off by saying "Someone else was driving my car." Why? Because it would be dishonest.

JCF
August 27, 2006, 07:22 PM
drive up to the US border with a loaded or unloaded gun in their vehicle, and attempt to cross without declaring it... well, guess what would happen?

I'm going to go out on a limb and speculate that most folk on this board don't have a problem with Dept of Homeland Security prohibiting foreign nationals from travelling into the USA secretly armed do they?

I am a Canadian citizen residing in the US. Although I personally very strongly disagree with the gun laws on both sides of border, the decision to follow laws in either country isn't optional based upon one's personal belief systems. The decision to be truthful to a sworn law enforcement officer isn't optional either.

gezzer
August 27, 2006, 07:31 PM
The guy was/is a moron.

Why go to Canada anyway? Not me.

Problem with Canada is to many Canadians.

Canadian = Revolutionary War Loosers = same mindset as UK

Double Naught Spy
August 27, 2006, 07:41 PM
You're all missing the point, no government has the right to take away the rights of a human being to defend themselves. They have no business asking the question in the first place.

The Canadian government did NOT take away his rights to defend himself. You apparently are confused between the concepts of rights and means and in this case, only one type of means was restricted. The man still had the right to defend himself should something go wrong, but not with illegally smuggled firearms.

Governments do have the power to grant and remove rights. That is because they are the government. I think you have confused what does happen in the real world versus what has been established in the USA which is a fairly unique case. Even if you want to argue the hueristic point about what a government does or does not have the "right" to do, the fact is that what you are discussing is a theory and in application, they most certainly do it all the time.

In the case of the stupid lying American tourist, the Canadian government does have the right to do whatever they want as described by Canadian law. They did not have to admit the American into the country if he was not willing to abide by their laws. He knowingly and intentionally tried to get past customs with multiple firearms, lied multiple times to customs officials who acted within Canadian laws.

The bottom line is that when you are in somebody else's house, you have to play by their rules. The house rules in Canada and in Mexico (since it was mentioned) are quite different than the house rules in the US.

Marshall
August 27, 2006, 07:58 PM
Hairless wrote:
I don't speed or run red lights: I comply with traffic laws and I'll continue to do so even when I see you speeding and ignoring red lights. I don't allow a dog off a leash where it's prohibited, and I won't do it even where it's not prohibited if there are other people who could even possibly be harmed by my dog. I don't own a "restricted" firearm, won't own one, and will leave the area when you try to show me yours. I don't give or sell prescription painkillers or other narcotics to people, wouldn't take yours if you offer it to me, and I would report you to the police if I saw you doing it. I'm not a special person and I don't think myself entitled to break laws I don't like. What other laws do you violate besides traffic and animal safety laws, firearms laws, and narcotics laws?

I know Jesus lives, I just didn't know he was here on THR.

DRZinn
August 27, 2006, 10:20 PM
Governments do have the power to grant and remove rights. If you really believe that, then you are truly beyond help.

Robert Hairless
August 27, 2006, 10:56 PM
Marshall:

I know Jesus lives, I just didn't know he was here on THR.

I hadn't thought there was anything special about not being a lawbreaker, Marshall. Now I'm beginning to understand why you're surprised. :)

I like the quotation in your signature, by the way:

"A people that values its privileges above its principles soon loses both."
Dwight Eisenhower

Zedicus
August 28, 2006, 01:07 AM
I haven't seen ANYONE so-far give this Guy the benefit of the Doubt, So I will.

How are the rest of you so certain that he did lie?

He could have simply forgot they were in the thing.

With a Large RV that's VERY easy to do.

And it would explain his insisting that he didn't have any firearm's in the vehicle.

How are we supposed to know if he is Guilty?
Pleading guilty doesn't necessarily mean you are, sometimes it is the "Only way" or the "easyest/cheapest way" out of such situations.

To Put some perspective on this, One American Citizen went to the UK a few years or so ago and was arrested when he got off his Flight at Heathrow, then he was later deported back to the US (never to be allowed to return to the UK or EU) for simply having a Casing in his Luggage that he didn't even know was there.

Get the picture?

Prince Yamato
August 28, 2006, 01:16 AM
First, that guy broke the law, he deserved the fine.

Second:

Amen to a boycott. I lived in Canada for one and a half years, it's socialism pure and simple. Ontarians are brainwashed into believing that only their government has the power to help them (Watch Cable Pulse 24 or CBC and they always take the poll, "should the GOVERNMENT be spending more on ____" - the government isn't spending their money, they're spending YOURS). The government has their hands in everything, from alcohol and cigarettes (you can only buy them at government run stores, such as the Liquor Control Board of Ontario [LCBO] or the BEER STORE) to hydro. What really strips my barrel threads is the Canada First Policy concerning employment. We hire Canadians down here and think nothing of it. In Canada, you are obligated to hire Canadians ahead of Americans. If an American wants a job in Canada, they have to make sure that no Canadians want the job beforehand. The double standard is really astounding.

I mentioned on a previous thread, as capitalists we can control a lot with our spending. I think it does a disservice to everyone to demonize all Canadians- most of them are powerless to change their government, but we can sure as heck change their economy to something more American friendly. For instance, boycott tourism, ie, no more trips to see the Lion King in Toronto. Second, support those businesses in Canada that are freedom-loving (ie, Marstar). If the Canadian governemt determines that Americans are more interested in hunting/purchasing guns from Canada, believe me, they'll think about revising the gun laws- they're a majority gov't after all, they can change things as they please to suit their latest whimms. (Keep in mind that part of the 15% sales tax goes towards the national healthcare system in Canada, so they DO need our $$$)

I still have many Canadian friends and have a general love for Canada's unique cultural heritage, but none of that changes my stern opposition to socialism. As I tell my Canadian friends, "it won't be too long before your entire flag is Red".

stevelyn
August 28, 2006, 01:22 AM
It's simple. Don't go places where you're not welcome.

Car Knocker
August 28, 2006, 02:18 AM
How are we supposed to know if he is Guilty?
Pleading guilty doesn't necessarily mean you are, sometimes it is the "Only way" or the "easyest/cheapest way" out of such situations.

1) He crossed an international border

2) With 3 loaded firearms in his vehicle

3) And he said (3 times) when asked that he did not have any firearms in the vehicle.

Guilty of Felon Stupidity, if nothing else.

He could have simply forgot they were in the thing.

I don't think "I forgot I had 3 loaded guns in my vehicle" is much of a legal defense - "I forgot" probably wouldn't have worked if they had found 5 pounds of marijuana in the vehicle, either.

leadcounsel
August 28, 2006, 04:09 AM
I know Jesus lives, I just didn't know he was here on THR.


+1 :D Very funny.

I don't speed or run red lights: I comply with traffic laws and I'll continue to do so even when I see you speeding and ignoring red lights. I don't allow a dog off a leash where it's prohibited, and I won't do it even where it's not prohibited if there are other people who could even possibly be harmed by my dog. I don't own a "restricted" firearm, won't own one, and will leave the area when you try to show me yours. I don't give or sell prescription painkillers or other narcotics to people, wouldn't take yours if you offer it to me, and I would report you to the police if I saw you doing it. I'm not a special person and I don't think myself entitled to break laws I don't like. What other laws do you violate besides traffic and animal safety laws, firearms laws, and narcotics laws?


I never said that I did any or all of these examples, they were arbitrary examples for which everyone is guilty of some or all.

:barf:

I was born at night but not last night.... I suppose, however, that anyone can pretend to be what they want on the internet... :banghead:

Don't go where you're not welcome

+1 on that. As I've become more politically savy in my 'old' age, I've learned to stop supporting states and nations that don't "get it."

As far as the comment on Governments having the right to set laws, In principal I don't believe that any nation has the "right" to prohibit a man from his inalienable rights of life, liberty, justice, and the pursuit of happiness. Included in that right of "life" is the right to effective self defense -- i.e. firearms. Many men before our current leaders died to secure that right and I'm not so sure that it needs to be written off the lawbooks so abruptly. Whether you choose to follow the law is your choice, but many true leaders in history stood up agaisnt tyrannical laws that were facially wrong, examples include civil rights violations, and made significant changes. Gun owners should unite and stop cowering to nation-states with equally tyrannical anti 2nd Amendment laws.

If nations like Canada refuse to allow me to take my self defense weapons on vacation, they can expect that I won't be spending any of my money there. The same is true for states like NY and Canada, cities like DC and Chicago. I encourage everyone to vote with their dollars and equally important to let it be known that you refuse to spend money there.

tellner
August 28, 2006, 04:29 AM
I like Vancouver and Toronto and will continue to go there. Canada is safe enough that I'm not shortening my actuarial span by going there without guns. Can't say the same thing about the UK, especially Scotland. The Brits have a combination of hostility to the entire idea of self defense combined with the highest violent crime rate in the EU.

JBusch8899
August 28, 2006, 04:30 AM
So that translates to what? $1.62 American? LOL

Just kidding. All I can think of is that John Candy's last film, "Canadian Bacon".
For anyone who hasn't seen it, its a film about the end of the cold war and the political need to start another one.....with Canada. A funny movie with quite a few names.

Okay, now seriously.......................

Knowing that the Kanucks on the border are unarmed, I'm rather surprised they weren't ordered to abandon their posts. Does anyone else remember what happened earlier this year in Washington State?

Living across from Ft. Erie for as many years as I did, I am reminded that the possession of any contraband, no matter how innocent, will get you into a heap of trouble.

This guy should consider himself lucky that he and his family weren't thrown in the great white North hooskow while waiting six months for Dudley-Do-Right to fetch the judge.

The only thing worse than bringing a few firearms into Canada, is to litter or otherwise fool with their environment.

Marshall
August 28, 2006, 08:25 AM
Quote:
I know Jesus lives, I just didn't know he was here on THR.


I hadn't thought there was anything special about not being a lawbreaker, Marshall. Now I'm beginning to understand why you're surprised.

I like the quotation in your signature, by the way:


Quote:
"A people that values its privileges above its principles soon loses both."
Dwight Eisenhower



Trust me, you're very special, in your own mind.

We're being honest, you're not. Honesty is the epitome of principles, which is one reason that quote is in my sig line.

We all know your vehicle hits at least one mile per hour over the speed limit on occasion. We know you've not come to a complete stop at a stop sign, we know you've not used a blinker when turning, etc. I'm ashamed of you for treating everyone on this forum as if they are stupid enough to believe you. I'm also ashamed of you for labeling everyone on this forum that has indeed done some of these things I listed, in other words all of us, as law breakers and not up to your holier than thou standards. I bet you don't sin either. Wait, we already know that's not right. :rolleyes:

deadin
August 28, 2006, 10:04 AM
I've forgotten that it's the American way. It's "breaking the law" only if you get caught, otherwise it's OK. And if you do get caught and you don't believe in the law in the first place, you're being oppressed.:barf: :barf: :barf:

alumltd
August 28, 2006, 10:31 AM
How come I can't get an answer to a rather simple question?

What do CCW holders do at a border crossings... even if they are not carrying/storing/transporting firearms?

Alas... I must conclude that there are very few who may have experienced this anomaly & probably none of them are THR's!;)

cassandrasdaddy
August 28, 2006, 10:38 AM
its that some folks don't see difference between accidentaly breaking a rule and constantly pushing the edge. then they feel p[icked on when there are consequences

deadin
August 28, 2006, 10:57 AM
What do CCW holders do at a border crossings... even if they are not carrying/storing/transporting firearms?

To start with, it would help if your question made sense.
If they aren't ''carrying/storing/transporting firearms'', they are no different than anybody else. If they wave their CCW permit around or are concerned they will be looked up on a computer, I guess one justs chalks it up to one of the costs of having a CCW,

Dean

alumltd
August 28, 2006, 11:12 AM
OK... sorry about the CCW question, Dean.

You're correct... it only makes sense to someone who knows what the law entails.

It was asked, in hopes that someone would know from experience, i.e. an actual event.:banghead:

deadin
August 28, 2006, 11:15 AM
Well, from actual experience, I have been across a number of times (Vancouver, B.C.) and the question never came up. (Also into Mexico, Europe, etc.)

Dean

grampster
August 28, 2006, 11:25 AM
My how things have changed. Prior to 9-11 I had a general unrestricted CCW and planned on taking the snowtain in October out of the Soo in Canada for a color tour up to Agawa Canyon. I called the US border patrol and asked if I could check my Beretta with them. They were nasty, rude and said no! I called the Cannucks on the other side of the border and they said sure. Just pull up and tell the officer you have a pistol to check, just make sure it was unloaded and the empty magazine out of the pistol.

I did so and they invited me in, I showed them my CCW and I filled out a small form with a receipt. I had previously dropped the mag, unloaded it and the pistol, leaving it open, as instructed. After a couple of agents walked over and admired the handgun and we had a little chat, they put it in a lockbox and stored it in a afe.

When I went back through, I presented my receipt, CCW, and picked it up. They were jovial and polite.

I still am quite agravated about my own country's agents and their rude and uncooperative behavior. I would have thought that they would have been happy to check my handgun. Sigh........

I wonder if the Canadians would be as cooperative today?

NineseveN
August 28, 2006, 12:07 PM
This thread is now officially in the toilet, way to go guys! :rolleyes:

FWIW, it's highly unlikely that anyone in this country has not broken some kind of code or law, knowingly or unknowingly. I do think it is mighty low for someone to espouse being on the moral high ground because they don't speed or haven't rolled through a stop sign but then turn around and get down and dirty with the rest of us pigs and result to insults in calling people "sleaze" for doing such minor things, even if only accidentally.

As for the gentleman crossing the border, he broke the law and got caught. It could have been negligence or it could have been bona fide criminal intent; it doesn't matter as far as Canada is concerned...their house, their rules. I choose not to go to Canada or spend any money there, the same as I do every other city/state/country that does not recognize the right for me to be armed.

Art Eatman
August 28, 2006, 12:23 PM
Andaroundandaroundandaround...

Art

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