Border Patrol agent fatally shoots rock-throwing man


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Desertdog
August 28, 2006, 02:25 PM
Border Patrol agent fatally shoots rock-throwing man
http://kvoa.com/Global/story.asp?S=5333826


YUMA, Ariz. -- A U.S. Border Patrol agent fatally shot a man who was throwing rocks at officers from the Mexican side of the border late Saturday, officials said.


The incident began after agents spotted a suspicious vehicle near the Andrade Port of Entry west of the California-Arizona border, just north of the international border and alongside the Colorado River.

The driver fled and then tried to swim across a pond along the river in an effort to return to Mexico, the agency said in a press release.

But the man began to struggle to stay afloat and agents threw him a flotation device and began to try to rescue him. Several people on the other side of the border then began throwing rocks at the agents, and one officer was struck in the head.

The officer then shot at a man who was getting ready to throw another rock, the Border Patrol said. Mexican authorities took the man to a hospital, where he died.

Attacks on Border Patrol agents have become more common in recent years, and this year agents say they're seeing smugglers become even more violent as more federal resources make crossing into the U.S. ever more difficult.

Smugglers are throwing softball-sized rocks, hunks of concrete and whole bricks at agents, either out of frustration or to try to get authorities to back off.

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orangelo
August 28, 2006, 02:27 PM
So the border agents try to save a drowning man/criminal and the mexicans throw rocks at the rescuers?

Good shoot if you ask me. :fire:

beerslurpy
August 28, 2006, 02:30 PM
Dont throw rocks at people? That's the only lesson I'm getting from this.

thefitzvh
August 28, 2006, 02:32 PM
While normally, I would say that shooting a man who is throwing rocks at you is reprehensible.

However, if they were interfering with the efforts of the border patrol to save a man's life, then they deserved it.


Rough call, but I think the agent did the right thing, and I hope he isn't having too much trouble with his decision.

ceetee
August 28, 2006, 02:37 PM
If I shoot a man that's on the other side of the border, what jurisdiction gets to arrest me?

Sindawe
August 28, 2006, 02:38 PM
About freaking time. :mad:

longeyes
August 28, 2006, 02:40 PM
No doubt the Left will have its usual field day with this one. Obviously they haven't taken softball-sized rocks to the head.

carlrodd
August 28, 2006, 02:47 PM
perhaps that man's close circle of friends will think twice before assaulting the border patrol again.....or perhaps not. they'll start to wise up if enough get shot. good job border patrol agent.

Biker
August 28, 2006, 02:48 PM
A) As a kid, I accidentally put a big dent in another kid's dome during a rock fight. He came out okay but with a steel plate in his head. We were just playing but it shows what can happen.

B) Don't bring a rock to a gunfight.

C) Sympathy can be found in the dictionary between sh....never mind.

Biker;)

Erebus
August 28, 2006, 03:24 PM
If you are trying to hit me in the head with a softball sized rock or chunk of concrete I see that as deadly force. One guy throwing rocks I can dodge and run. Not a shooting situation. Several throwing rocks while I'm trying to save a drowning man is whole different story. I get hit there's a good chance I die and the drowning man dies, I run away good chance the drowning man dies. Unacceptable on both counts. Sounds like they did what they were forced to do based on these early facts.

As much as I don't like border jumpers I can't stand by and watch a human being drown without doing everything I can to save them. That's not to say I agree with setting up water stations in the desert, that only encourages illegal crossings. I don't mind saving their lives when you find them in trouble, but don't do anything to encourage them.

Frog48
August 28, 2006, 03:26 PM
If the rock-throwing morons were on US soil, I'd have no problem with the border patrol taking a shot at them. But shooting across international borders is unacceptable, because thats how wars are started. You gotta look at the big picture. I know that a war is unlikely between the US and Mexico because of an incident such as this, but its the principle of the matter. Wars have started from incidents smaller than this...

I hope the officer is reprimanded, at the least.

Personally, if I had been in that situation... I would have backed out of range of the rock-throwers, and let the fool drown.

NevJohn
August 28, 2006, 03:44 PM
Grant48...... shooting across the border, yeah, it might start a war, but take a look at this photo from this past weekend Minuteman rally in Maywood, CA. Note that the "pro-illegals" hauled down the American Flag at the Post Office, and ran up the Mexican flag. :evil: All this while the Maywood PD did nothing about it. :fire: Hmmmm. Now this might start a war; at least in alot of citizens who witness it are very upset, as it seems possible Civil War will break out again, 150 years after the first.
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f116/NevJohn/maywoodpoflag.jpg
The US government; namely Mr. Bush and Chaney (noticed I didnt say "Mr President") along with the congress better get this immigration problem fixed soon, or there will be a revolt of some sorts. Sorry for the rant..

John
(I do not belong to the MM)

bowline
August 28, 2006, 03:50 PM
The Mexican government aids and abets the border invasion with maps. The Mexican army has violated the border any number of times this year alone.
Theres' your causus bella right there. It takes two to fight a war, it only takes one to roll over and surrender.
Good shoot - the rock throwers were, in substance, facilitating the drowning of the runner. The shoot was in aid of his rescue.
Just my 2 cents....

fourays2
August 28, 2006, 04:00 PM
GWB needs to be impeached over his handling of the mexican invasion.

Biker
August 28, 2006, 04:05 PM
It's time. Any Americans present at that event who did nothing should be ashamed and stripped of their citizenship, cops included. If your Flag means nothing more than that and you allow a foreign flag to fly in its place, get out of my country. End of story...

Biker

longeyes
August 28, 2006, 04:09 PM
The War started a long time ago. The unassimilated illegal aliens merely constitute the southern front.

freedom and guns
August 28, 2006, 04:12 PM
I agree with bowline. The thing people should learn from this is DON'T THROW ROCKS AT MEN BETTER ARMED THAN YOURSELF. Especially those that are LEO's trying to save someone's life. That should have been obvious. Never get between them and a man in need.

Thefabulousfink
August 28, 2006, 04:21 PM
NevJohn
Where was the Postmaster? I seem to recall an anecdote about the War of 1812. The Capitol was burned by the British and the only reason that the Post Office was spared was because the Post Master General met the British on the steps with a blunderbuss.

The story may or may not be true, but the fact of the matter is that the Flag and flag pole are Government Property and if I worked there I would have marched out, retrived the flag, and cut the line on the flag pole to prevent it from being used in such a way. If I was assaulted, so be it. Mabey then the police would step in and do their jobs. I am not above risking bodily injury to see that what is right gets done.

freedom and guns
August 28, 2006, 05:06 PM
America needs more people like you.

Desertdog
August 28, 2006, 05:14 PM
That's not to say I agree with setting up water stations in the desert,
I think the BP should put water stations in the desert with cameras, motion detectors, emergency alert box, and silent automatic notifacation of authorities if they don't use the emergency button. That would be a great life saver.

Vitamin G
August 28, 2006, 05:16 PM
B) Don't bring a rock to a gunfight.

Somewhere, there's a small army of palestinian children thinking to themselves, "Why not?"

xd9fan
August 28, 2006, 06:12 PM
About freaking time.

big time. Bout time we start grabbin the boot that continues to kick us in the head.

To bad the current GOP is not with "we the people" on this illegal invasion.

STAGE 2
August 28, 2006, 09:19 PM
as it seems possible Civil War will break out again, 150 years after the first.

Nope, can't be a civil war since the hispanic trash that continues to illegally enter the country aren't citizens.

As for the altercation, great shoot. Maybe just maybe if everytime the BP was assaulted and responded with deadly force these wretched excuses for human beings wouldn't take to crossing with such a cavalier attitude.

crazed_ss
August 28, 2006, 09:40 PM
You guys are comical. I bet you'd be flipping out and screaming for an all-out invasion of Mexican if Mexican authorities had fired a shot accross the border and killed an American.

crazed_ss
August 28, 2006, 09:43 PM
Nope, can't be a civil war since the hispanic trash that continues to illegally enter the country aren't citizens.

As for the altercation, great shoot. Maybe just maybe if everytime the BP was assaulted and responded with deadly force these wretched excuses for human beings wouldn't take to crossing with such a cavalier attitude.

Here's the problem with your thinking.

Not everyone here thinks Hispanics are trash and wretched excuses for human beings. Many Americans (in the southwest at least) would disagree with you. Many of these Americans own guns.

Keith Wheeler
August 28, 2006, 09:48 PM
Nope, can't be a civil war since the hispanic trash...

And the fascists show their true spots...

orionengnr
August 28, 2006, 09:49 PM
Yeah, because we are swarming across their border by the millions...:rolleyes:

Let's see, would that be a red herring or a straw man...hmmm, sounds more like a non-sequitor to me.

orionengnr
August 28, 2006, 09:50 PM
double tap

ConstitutionCowboy
August 28, 2006, 09:53 PM
What the hey! Someone threw a rock across and hit one of our agents and I think that is enough right there! Why wait 'till they send bullets across the border! :fire: :cuss: :mad:

Woody

"The United States of America is not up for grabs. Keep your hands off and steer clear. Free people live here - Free people who are determined to stay free. Our rights and freedom will be defended with extreme prejudice." B.E.Wood

ConstitutionCowboy
August 28, 2006, 09:59 PM
Not everyone here thinks Hispanics are trash and wretched excuses for human beings. Many Americans (in the southwest at least) would disagree with you. Many of these Americans own guns.

It ain't about race, it's about entering this country illegally.

Woody

crazed_ss
August 28, 2006, 09:59 PM
Yes.. rocks can be lethal, especially when a bunch of people are throwing them at you. I would have fired a couple shots in their general direction first.. try to scare them away with gunfire. If that didnt work, then I'd take aim at one of the attackers.

But alas.. I wasnt there. Not good to second guess.

crazed_ss
August 28, 2006, 10:03 PM
It ain't about race, it's about entering this country illegally.

Is it?

Then why call them in hispanic trash? Why not just "trash"?

No this is all about race, culture, ethnicity, etc. This is why it doesnt bother me as much as it bothers many people here. I grew up in CA around Mexican culture.. my girlfriend is Mexican. Friends and co-workers are Mexican. The illegal thing has become a sidenote. People say their beef is with the fact that they're illegal, BUT if tommorow Bush legalized all of them, you guys would still be crying about it ATMs and government forms in Spanish.. So it's about much more than just their legal status, IMO

lamazza
August 28, 2006, 10:07 PM
I bet you'd be flipping out and screaming for an all-out invasion of Mexican if Mexican authorities had fired a shot accross the border and killed an American

Yup!
I'd be the first volunteer.

+1 biker

ConstitutionCowboy
August 28, 2006, 10:11 PM
...invading foreign nationals. That's what they are, after all.

Personally, I've never referred to them as "hispanic trash". I've never even called them "trash".

It shouldn't be a race or ethnicity issue in any event.

Woody

Stephen Ewing
August 28, 2006, 10:22 PM
Crazed SS, I have to ask: How much training have you had on use of lethal force?

I ask because the way it works around here is that if you don't really believe somebody needs killing right the heck now, the state of Texas suggests-rather strongly- you not shoot at him.

Just a thought.

GoRon
August 28, 2006, 10:27 PM
The illegal thing has become a sidenote.

No it is the main point of contention. Nobody has said a thing about US citizens losing rights or being told to leave.

In fact YOU are the one conflating legals and illegals.

There is a difference.

The illegal lobby, both parties, esp. the media love to paint strong border control advocates as anti-immigrant at best and anti mexican frequently.

An unregulated flood of people pouring across the border is no longer allowable.

Keith Wheeler
August 28, 2006, 10:33 PM
It ain't about race, it's about entering this country illegally.

Is it?

Yep, I'm sure all these red-blooded (perhaps white) Americans would be frothing at the mouth ready to KILL PEOPLE WHO JUST WANT A BETTER LIFE if they were all Canadians.

crazed_ss
August 28, 2006, 10:41 PM
Crazed SS, I have to ask: How much training have you had on use of lethal force?

Just military training. We did some training in riot control in peacekeeping operations and things like that. Obviously military training doesnt mean much in the civilian world.

308nato
August 28, 2006, 10:41 PM
those agents will be lucky if they dont get prosecuted for shooting the guy
throwing the rocks.
Check out www.RightMarch.com and see what happend to 2 other
agents who were just doing there job. scroll down to Action Alerts,
Demand investigation of heros ,border agents made scapegoats.

EmGeeGeorge
August 28, 2006, 10:47 PM
wow... the racism poureth out...

Matt King
August 28, 2006, 10:51 PM
wow... the racism poureth out...

Exactly my Thoughts.

Biker
August 28, 2006, 10:54 PM
Yeah...I'd be pissed if better than a million French speaking Canadians crossed my border every year demanding rights they're not entitled to, sucking the system dry, filling up my jails, demanding I learn their language while spitting on my culture and refusing to assimilate, all the while touting the Reconquista (or whatever the French word happens to be).

You bet I'd be pissed - much like I am now with the Mexicans.

Biker

Desertdog
August 28, 2006, 10:55 PM
I bet you'd be flipping out and screaming for an all-out invasion of Mexican if Mexican authorities had fired a shot accross the border and killed an American.
Not if they shot an American that was throwing large racks at them, and had already injured one.
It ain't about race, it's about entering this country illegally.
Correct, to me it is about ILLEGAL ENTRY. I have no problem with any non-citizen that enters the country LEGALLY.
Nope, can't be a civil war since the hispanic trash that continues to illegally enter the country aren't citizens.
Most illegals are almost honest people. They do think they should be able to cross the border at will.

Some hispanics, some Canadians, some Irish, in fact some of any and all nationalities are trash. This does not mean all of any race should be called trash. If you know somebdy that acts trashy, then name them.

Biker
August 28, 2006, 10:56 PM
For all you folks playing the "R" card...you forgot "xenophobe". The formula isn't complete without xenophobe.

Biker

crazed_ss
August 28, 2006, 10:56 PM
You should probably be pissed at the government for allowing the problem to continue. I'm guessing you probably voted for Bush..

EmGeeGeorge
August 28, 2006, 10:57 PM
...driving down the road the other day and a bunch of little white trash p.o.s. 13 yr old's threw rocks at my car... should I have shot them? Not the same thing, but...

the rock could've killed me right?

roo_ster
August 28, 2006, 10:57 PM
Then why call them in hispanic trash? Why not just "trash"?

No this is all about race, culture, ethnicity, etc. This is why it doesnt bother me as much as it bothers many people here. I grew up in CA around Mexican culture.. my girlfriend is Mexican. Friends and co-workers are Mexican. The illegal thing has become a sidenote. People say their beef is with the fact that they're illegal, BUT if tommorow Bush legalized all of them, you guys would still be crying about it ATMs and government forms in Spanish.. So it's about much more than just their legal status, IMO
Trash is as trash does.

White, black, brown, whatever doesn't matter except as a helpful descriptor as to the specific trash one is writing about. All races/ethnicities have their trash & those who have experience with them can appreciate the wondrous diversity of dysfunctional behavior the Rainbow Coalition of Trash can exhibit.

You want it to be about race, don't you?

That allows for easy posturing and allows one to climb on a high horse instead of working the problem down here with the folks who take it in the jimmy every time taxes come due and have to make the hard decisions. Flapping gums in admonition is easier than dealing with public school systems that shortchange American black inner city kids because of a fire hose of illegal minors & anchor babies suck up resources that rightly ought to go to the aforementioned American kids.

Intimating racism in others is orders of magnitude easier than tackling the burden illegals place on health care. Where illegals birth their anchor babies, get their job-related injuries tended, and walk out on the bills. Taxpayers and all who need healthcare pick up the bill for them, so that lower middle class American citizens can not afford to have a child in a hospital.

Biker
August 28, 2006, 11:00 PM
I voted for Bush in 2000. A major reason I didn't vote for him again was his attempt to grant amnesty to 20 million illegal parasites.

Clear?

Biker

ConstitutionCowboy
August 28, 2006, 11:03 PM
All here trying to make this a race issue are gonna loose. It isn't about race, it's about flouting our laws and borders, and raping this country of its largess that we as citizens of this Union built for ourselves and not the rest of the world! I don't care if they come from Mexico, Canada, China, England, Switzerland, Saudi Arabia, or Lower Sloboviaskistan. If they are here illegally, they are criminals. If they want what we have, let them adopt a system of government and protect freedoms like we have and do.

What we have that makes it all possible ain't no big secret!

Woody

"Peace, Prosperity, and Freedom: Magic elixirs of life brought to you courtesy of the Constitution for the United States of America." B.E.Wood

Car Knocker
August 28, 2006, 11:04 PM
Most illegals are almost honest people.

They enter the country illegally, live here illegally, work here illegally, often through the use of forged documents, many illegally dodge taxes, and illegally consume taxpayer provided services.

I guess you have a looser definition of "almost honest" than I do.

shootinstudent
August 28, 2006, 11:06 PM
Okay, we all agree that uncontrolled illegal immigration is a bad thing.

But, to say there's no racism involved in the hatred for illegal immigrants from mexico flies in the face of reality. I do not think you could find a single American with a year-round tan of any sort who would agree that the anger over illegal immigration has absolutely nothing to do with hatred for brown people.

If broad spectrum anti-illegal measures come into place, guess who's going to be hassled by police on the street everywhere he/she goes? It's not white skinned folks.

If some psycho reads too many internet postings and decides to "solve the illegal problem" with his rifle in a US city, guess what? He's not going to be shooting at the white faces.

Race has everything to do with immigration issues, and minorities in America are right to be worried about the way things are going and to worry about racism in some of the comments people make.

Keith Wheeler
August 28, 2006, 11:08 PM
That allows for easy posturing and allows one to climb on a high horse instead of working the problem down here with the folks who take it in the jimmy every time taxes come due and have to make the hard decisions. Flapping gums in admonition is easier than dealing with public school systems that shortchange American black inner city kids because of a fire hose of illegal minors & anchor babies suck up resources that rightly ought to go to the aforementioned American kids.

You can only make that claim about resources if those families do not pay any kind of tax that helps support the schools. Unless you can demonstrate that these people pay NO taxes that help support the schools, your arguement is flawed.

That's a major issue I have in this, an incredible lack of understanding of macro economics by the anti-immigration types. Primary input of potential GDP? Population. More population, more potential GDP. How else will we keep up with China (economically)?

And by the way, my wife teaches those kids. White, black, and hispanic. She teaches them equally.

Biker -- the issue I have is that too many have to throw in the "hispanic trash" sentiment, and that disturbs me. The whole "us" vs. "them" thing. My best friend will go on these racists diatribes about Mexicans not wanting to assimilate, and then tell nostalgic stories of his childhood about how his folks still spoke German. Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?

Long term? I'm not sure what the answer is. I do know that short term the answer is not hate filled speech about shooting poor people just because they're from a different country. It wasn't too many decades ago when "Bikers" wearing brown shirts would've felt that way about me.

hankdatank1362
August 28, 2006, 11:11 PM
How hard is it to enter America through all the legal channels? Seriously, not sarcastically? I've known many eastern europeans that have legally emigrated their homeland and had to pass basic english language and American history tests. I'm assuming that the Mexicans would have to do the same if they legally immgrated into America. Do we still do that to immigrants looking to relocate? I see no problem with hard-working Mexicans legally coming into our country if they are willing to do that. (Not the latino gangstas though)

Boy, I sure hope I used "emigrated" and "immigrated" correctly! :D

Keith Wheeler
August 28, 2006, 11:11 PM
If some psycho reads too many internet postings and decides to "solve the illegal problem" with his rifle in a US city, guess what? He's not going to be shooting at the white faces.

You think this is a "what if"? Go find out how many skinheads (not using it as an attack, these 'gentlemen' describe themselves as such) go out in the deserts looking for undocumented latinos to beat and kill. It happens, more than should in a society that supposedly is so full of its own laws that merely coming here makes you public enemy number 1.

Biker
August 28, 2006, 11:13 PM
Excuse me? "'Bikers' wearing brown shirts"?
Explain if you would.

Biker, Wearing a Levi Shirt, Jeans and Steel Toed Engineer Boots...

Keith Wheeler
August 28, 2006, 11:13 PM
How hard is it to enter America through all the legal channels?

Trivial if you're from certain Euro countries, or Canada. (My boss is from Canada, he's been here many many years, and no, has no plans to naturalize). Durn near impossible if you're from the "wrong" countries.

shootinstudent
August 28, 2006, 11:15 PM
Keith, good point, but those kinds of stories don't get blown up all over the supposedly pro-illegal press.

crazed_ss
August 28, 2006, 11:16 PM
How hard is it to enter America through all the legal channels? Seriously, not sarcastically?

For poor Mexicans, It's extremely difficult. That's a big part of the problem.
That's why we need a guest worker program or something of that sort.

Keith Wheeler
August 28, 2006, 11:16 PM
Excuse me? "'Bikers' wearing brown shirts"?

Prior to WWII there were a number of national socialist groups in the US. They were known as "brown shirts", as they tended to dress in khaki/brown shirts with epaulets and Sam Brown belts. The late 1930s skinheads, but with ties. Some would roam on motorcycles, looking for undesirables to beat/kill.

Being Jewish, I am one of those "undesirables".


Please don't take my comments as an attack on bikers, or you personally, just used it as a connection.

GoRon
August 28, 2006, 11:18 PM
nevermind

SalTx
August 28, 2006, 11:20 PM
Good shoot, hope it clears.

crazed_ss
August 28, 2006, 11:20 PM
You think this is a "what if"? Go find out how many skinheads (not using it as an attack, these 'gentlemen' describe themselves as such) go out in the deserts looking for undocumented latinos to beat and kill. It happens, more than should in a society that supposedly is so full of its own laws that merely coming here makes you public enemy number 1.

Exactly.. I just read a post on another board about a Marine and his girl (Hispanic Couple) who were beat in North Carolina. Perfectly legal Americans who were brutalized because someone isnt happy about all the brown people coming into NC. This is why I am so wary of this becoming a race issue. It's nearly impossible to seperate illegal Hispanic people from normal Hispanic Americans.

Stephen Ewing
August 28, 2006, 11:23 PM
That would have been one of my guesses, Crazed SS, and it is indeed a different world. I know it's tricky where you are, but I'd really suggest learning the laws which apply to you now. Learning them the hard way isn't nearly so much fun.

One of my closest friends in all the world has a girlfriend who lives with her family just about a mile south of the border. If a thug violently interfering in life-saving operations gets shot, I can live with that. I do have a problem with "warning shots" sailing around the countryside south of the border looking for somewhere to stop.

I want the violent guy stopped, and I don't want the innocents endangered. It sounds like the bad guy got stopped, right?

GoRon
August 28, 2006, 11:23 PM
It's nearly impossible to seperate illegal Hispanic people from normal Hispanic Americans.

Then maybe they should be the ones on the leading edge to protect our borders.

They have even more to lose by the flood of illegals than the average American.

Keith Wheeler
August 28, 2006, 11:25 PM
This is why I am so wary of this becoming a race issue. It's nearly impossible to seperate illegal Hispanic people from normal Hispanic Americans.

Right. That spectre haunts me all the time. Do I think everyone here who is anti-immigrant, even the most vocal about it, are racists? No. Do I think if they don't choose their words and actions wisely they will fan the fires of the racists? Yep.

"Liberty and justice for all" (white anglo-saxon heterosexual protestants...)

or something.

Biker
August 28, 2006, 11:26 PM
Oh, I dunno SS...If they're flying Mex flags, celebrate Cinco De Mayo but not Independance Day, speak Spanish all the time, have bumper stickers on their cars reading "F**K You,This is Mexico", it doesn't take an 'Eensteen' to put two and two together.
Things *are* gonna get ugly. You don't wanna mess with a dog in his own backyard. Just the way it is...

Biker

Keith Wheeler
August 28, 2006, 11:31 PM
This thread is why I'm a moderate liberatarian.

The left looks at the improper actions of a few, and pass more laws to make the conflict go away.

The right looks at the improper actions of a few, and wants burst in to conflict.

I know a lot of latinos (not just Mexican, some from points much further south). I don't know any behave the way Biker is claiming. Maybe you're just looking for a fight?

Wonder what Henry Ford would've said about the Mexicans?

hankdatank1362
August 28, 2006, 11:34 PM
I have more of a distaste for Canadians myself ;)

Never been hit with a rock, but if whoever did it tried it more than once, they'd be shot, whmever it may be. Illegal mexican, legal mexican, black panther, kkk member, skinhead, gangbanger, drug dealer, punk, or rich white preppy college boy.

An deadly assault is a deadly assault, regardless or race, color, creed, ethnicity, age, gender, sexual orientation, social status, or freakiin haircut and taste in clothes. Just like everything else is supposed to be.

crazed_ss
August 28, 2006, 11:37 PM
Flags..
Spanish..
Cinco De Mayo..
Bumper stickers..

Is that it?

Mexican-Americans have been flying Mexican flags for as long as I can remember. This is not a new thing.

For many Mexican-Americans, Spanish is their first language. They are bilingual, but they will switch back to Spanish when speaking with family, friends, or other Spanish speakers. You'll see this a lot in California.

Cinco De Mayo.. lol.. that might as well be an American holiday. It's like St Patrick's day. Just another excuse for Americans to drink. They barely even celebrate it in Mexico. When you start seeing massive Mexican Independence Day (16 de Septiembre) parties, then you might wanna get worried :)

Bumper stickers.. well I've never see one like you've described :)

Sindawe
August 28, 2006, 11:39 PM
Maybe you're just looking for a fight?Maybe you're not looking hard enough (although I'm not looking for it all, yet still I see it).

These folks have seen LOTS of what Biker describes: http://www.saveourstate.org/forums/index.php?act=idx

As have these folks: http://www.alipac.us/

When I did go looking for that sort of behavior, it was none too hard to find last May up in Fort Collins. Main street blocked for a pro-crimminal alien march, Mexican flags abounded and lots of calls to for me to "Go home to Europe". :barf:

Keith Wheeler
August 28, 2006, 11:40 PM
Flags..
Spanish..
Cinco De Mayo..
Bumper stickers..

ss has an excellent point here.

I speak Hebrew. I have many Israeli flags. I have a star of David on my truck (and around my neck). I celebrate not only religious Jewish holidays, but also secular Israeli holidays. So Biker, I'm a threat to your way of life too?

Biker
August 28, 2006, 11:41 PM
Yer head's in the sand, man. Last time I rode down to SoCal, I saw those bumperstickers all over. Me thinks you're seeing what you want to see and not the things that make you uncomfortable.

Biker

crazed_ss
August 28, 2006, 11:43 PM
These folks have seen LOTS of what Biker describes: http://www.saveourstate.org/forums/index.php?act=idx


What about what Biker describes is illegal? It seems like you guys are upset because some people are expressing themselves in a manner you dont like.

Sindawe
August 28, 2006, 11:44 PM
Keith: If you were demanding that non-Hebrew speakers learn Hebrew, that New York is STILL Israel after having started a war that you lost and were removing American flags over sovereign American territory to put up Israeli flags, then YES you would be a threat.

Keith Wheeler
August 28, 2006, 11:45 PM
Maybe you're not looking hard enough (although I'm not looking for it all, yet still I see it)

I've seen Mexicans speak spanish, display Mexican flags. I've also seen a lot of them speak english, try very hard to learn english, and display proudly the stars and stripes.

I know Hindus that are very proud of their Indian heritage. My best friend calls his grandparents "Oma" and "Opa" (that's German, for all you single language speaking folk). I've got a good bit of English blood in me, I own way too many British cars and have been known to fly the Union Jack from time to time.

Again, I say, there are too many people who want to kill (and are admitting it!) rather than solve the underlying issues, which include way too much demand and very little control of how American businesses handle their hiring practices.

crazed_ss
August 28, 2006, 11:48 PM
Yer head's in the sand, man. Last time I rode down to SoCal, I saw those bumperstickers all over. Me thinks you're seeing what you want to see and not the things that make you uncomfortable.

That's possible.

It's also possible they you saw a couple things you disagreed with and are blowing it out of proportion.

Did you notice if these cars had CA or Mexican plates?

If they had CA plates, they're most likely registered in the US and owned by citizens or legal aliens. In that case, these people have the right to put whatever stupid stickers they want on their cars. I dont think their bumper stickers echo the feelings of the majority of Hispanic peoples (legal or illegal).

EmGeeGeorge
August 28, 2006, 11:49 PM
"Then maybe they should be the ones on the leading edge to protect our borders.

They have even more to lose by the flood of illegals than the average American."

So maybe gun-owners should scramble to join the ATF, GoRon? Is it okay in your eyes then, to attack people based upon your perceptions of them?

Keith Wheeler
August 28, 2006, 11:49 PM
If you were demanding that non-Hebrew speakers learn Hebrew, that New York is STILL Israel after having started a war that you lost and were removing American flags over sovereign American territory to put up Israeli flags, then YES you would be a threat.

The only latinos I've ever dealt with that couldn't speak English were embarrassed by that fact, and were struggling to learn the language of their new country, illegal or not. Like most native speakers of other languages, sure they're happy when you know enough to say "please" and "thank you" (which I believe are just common courtesy, but maybe I'm just not American enough to be a complete *******). But still, they try to learn the language....


And on the flag issue....if I raised an Israeli flag over a post office, would I be a threat, or would all Jews be a threat?

That's my issue with you guys. It only takes one jerkwad to do the flag stunt, so you immediately condemn millions, to death if you had the chance. Wow, that's really what the country stands for, huh?

crazed_ss
August 28, 2006, 11:49 PM
If you were demanding that non-Hebrew speakers learn Hebrew

I keep hearing this. Personally, No one has ever demanded that I learn Spanish.

Where is this happening?

EDIT: Well.. in High School I had to take foreign language classes. Still, I wasnt required to take Spanish as we were able to choose between Spanish, French and German.

Biker
August 28, 2006, 11:54 PM
If over a million Jews a year crossed American borders, breaking our laws while doing so, demanded I speak Hebrew but scoff at traditional American culture, celebrated Jewish holidays but not Independance Day, soaked the welfare system, flooded our schools and demanded the kids be taught in Hebrew, you bet I'd be pissed and looking for a fight, so to speak.
You're missing the point - I don't care what color or religion you are. If you don't knock on my door, ask for permission to enter, go by my rules, contribute to the household and try to fit in, get the hell out voluntarily or you will be forcibly removed. No apologies, no regrets...
Clear?

Biker

Keith Wheeler
August 28, 2006, 11:57 PM
Biker,

You're assuming that all of those millions are doing the actions that you don't like.

That could very well be an incorrect assumption. Think about it, what if you're wrong?

Clear?

Sindawe
August 28, 2006, 11:58 PM
Where is this happening?N=1, and sadly I did not have the foresight to record the conversation.

Two years ago. I attempted to place a drive through order at the local McD's. Order was never successfully placed due to the inability of the person manning the drive through to speak intelligible English. I went inside and commented on this to the Manager on duty. His response was "... maybe you should learn Spanish, then we could take your order."

Calls and emails to McD's Corporate relations were meet with silence.

And on the flag issue....if I raised an Israeli flag over a post office, would I be a threat, or would all Jews be a threat? Now where did I say that ALL people of Latino extraction are a threat? Those here in the U.S. in violation of our immigration laws are the threat to this nation.

crazed_ss
August 29, 2006, 12:00 AM
Ok.. you're not a fan of illegal immigration.. Fine
It's a problem that needs to be dealt with.

You also seem to have an issue with Hispanic people expressing themselves though. Where is it written that everyone in America has to fit a certain mold or "fit in"? Just because someone flies a Mexican flag, speaks Spanish, or puts a dumb sticker on their car doesnt mean they're illegal. In CA, it doesnt even mean that they're probably illegal.

I bet you'd get pretty pissy if someone assumed you were a criminal because of your biker culture.

Biker
August 29, 2006, 12:01 AM
Over a million cross our border illegaly every year, most mexican. No way I'm wrong. Even Stevie Wonder can see that. Can you?
Clear?

Biker

NineseveN
August 29, 2006, 12:03 AM
http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/9779/bprvraq1.jpg

Sorry, I couldn't resist. :D

Biker
August 29, 2006, 12:03 AM
I *am* a criminal - so are you unless you can convince me that you can go through a day without breaking a law.;)
BTW, I may get pissed, but never "prissy".

Biker

EmGeeGeorge
August 29, 2006, 12:08 AM
"Two years ago. I attempted to place a drive through order at the local McD's. Order was never successfully placed due to the inability of the person manning the drive through to speak intelligible English. I went inside and commented on this to the Manager on duty. His response was "... maybe you should learn Spanish, then we could take your order.""

If this is the ammo behind the arguement...

Matt King
August 29, 2006, 12:08 AM
I am not for illegall immigration. At all. It's a huge problem. It's just that when discussing the topic, sometimes people say very racist things about Hispanics, which is very rude and disrespectful.

Please try to keep these illegal immigration threads respectful and civil. It is not enlightining to read racist slurs against Hispanics. I come here to learn. Please everybody try to have an open mind.

GoRon
August 29, 2006, 12:14 AM
How hard is it for you guys to get your head around the concept of a secure border?

Without a secure border ANYONE can come in.

I don't really care a flip about the Mexicans (the insinuation I don't like Mexicans aside).

There are many enemies of our Country I am actually worried about and for reasons that have nothing to do with race.

The Islamic Nazi's can waltz right in our country off the grid. What does all the technology in the world do at airports and seaports if the bad guys can just walk across the border?

Since when is it normal for a nations borders to be wide open? That don't make any sense!

We are in a proxy war with several nations and you guys want to let anyone just walk right in!!

crazed_ss
August 29, 2006, 12:20 AM
I have no problem with a secure border. I think it's terribly hypocritical how Bush constantly harps on the Islamic terrorist threat while leaving the borders wide open. It makes me think that he really doesnt give a crap about national security. He just uses it to scare up support for him and his party.

What I have a problem with is people are all ready to fight others over flags, holidays, and language that they dont like. Just seems terribly... intolerant.

NineseveN
August 29, 2006, 12:25 AM
If people were serious about combating illegal immigration, they'd do something that made a little sense...go after the employers.

1. If you are found to employ an illegal immigrant and did not follow the law by verifying their identity with a valid ID and social security card, you are fined 250,000 per illegal.

2. Your tax ID and business license will be immediately revoked.

3. You will be brought up on charges of tax evasion and defrauding the IRS.

4. The illegal will be deported immediately.

5. If you turn yourself and your illegal staff in, you will be given amnesty for all past crimes of employing an illegal immigrant. This must be done by November 11th, 2006.

There, problem solved.


Now, this doesn't solve the secure border and terrorism issue, but neither does the Border Patrol.

Hk91 Fan
August 29, 2006, 12:28 AM
Good shoot.

GoRon
August 29, 2006, 12:29 AM
1. If you are found to employ an illegal immigrant and did not follow the law by verifying their identity with a valid ID and social security card, you are fined 250,000 per illegal.

2. Your tax ID and business license will be immediately revoked.

3. You will be brought up on charges of tax evasion and defrauding the IRS.

4. The illegal will be deported immediately.

5. If you turn yourself and your illegal staff in, you will be given amnesty for all past crimes of employing an illegal immigrant. This must be done by November 11th, 2006.

I am right there with you, oh, and secure the borders. Tight

Biker
August 29, 2006, 12:30 AM
Yes, I'm becoming..."intolerant". At this point in time, it seems like a good idea.
Give 'em an inch and they want the box the tape measure came in.
No more...

Biker

Sindawe
August 29, 2006, 12:34 AM
If people were serious about combating illegal immigration, they'd do something that made a little sense...go after the employers.

1. If you are found to employ an illegal immigrant and did not follow the law by verifying their identity with a valid ID and social security card, you are fined 250,000 per illegal.

2. Your tax ID and business license will be immediately revoked.

3. You will be brought up on charges of tax evasion and defrauding the IRS.

4. The illegal will be deported immediately.

5. If you turn yourself and your illegal staff in, you will be given amnesty for all past crimes of employing an illegal immigrant. This must be done by November 11th, 2006. As my teenaged niece would say, "I'm down with that".

Geronimo45
August 29, 2006, 12:44 AM
Throwing rocks is a great way to get good press for your side. When the Palestinians were setting off bombs on buses, it played badly with the press. When it was rocks, and the Israelis shot back, guess who became the bad guy and the underdogs?
Now, if the Israelis made a habit of machine-gunning rock throwers, the number of people doing it would decrease substantially. Rock throwers are counting on the fact that a soldier/LEO with a gun usually doesn't shoot somebody just for being a jackass. If they do, it's often them who get in serious trouble.

STAGE 2
August 29, 2006, 12:44 AM
Here's the problem with your thinking.

Not everyone here thinks Hispanics are trash and wretched excuses for human beings. Many Americans (in the southwest at least) would disagree with you. Many of these Americans own guns.

I have no problem with my thinking. Up until 2 years ago I lived my entire life in San Diego. I have as much exposure to latino people as anyone on this board. Many of the ones I have met have been some of the hardest working people I have ever come across. Most were very family oriented, good, loving people. Most, but not all had gone through or were in the process of legally emigrating to the US.

The ones who cross the border, who violate our laws, who harass our officers, who bring in drugs and who profit off of human trafficking are hispanic trash. Last time I checked there weren't millions of canadians illegally crossing our borders.

As far as the other posters fascist comments go I have equal contempt for americans who violate our laws and have expressed my views in other appropriate threads so please don't attempt to pigeon-hole my views into your little box of right and wrong.

Sometimes calling a spade a spade is not popular, but that doesn't change the designation no matter how much other would like it.

FTF
August 29, 2006, 12:49 AM
I hope I never get jaded enought to where I start blaming Mexicans, Hispanics or Jews for all of these problems. If I were poor in Mexico, saw an open border to the north, knowing that I would most likely not be removed and could make a lot of money compared to what I make now... I would go in a heartbeat! I would be running across the border or hiring someone to take me to the US.

I will, however BLAME the United States government for what they are allowing to happen here. It's a slap in the face to all of us, incuding those immigrants who became citizens legally. I actually blame most of the American voters... I just hope that they will collectively recognize the problem before it gets totally out of hand and the actual citizens become the minority overnight. Yes, it can happen. We may be close right now!

roo_ster
August 29, 2006, 12:53 AM
That allows for easy posturing and allows one to climb on a high horse instead of working the problem down here with the folks who take it in the jimmy every time taxes come due and have to make the hard decisions. Flapping gums in admonition is easier than dealing with public school systems that shortchange American black inner city kids because of a fire hose of illegal minors & anchor babies suck up resources that rightly ought to go to the aforementioned American kids.

You can only make that claim about resources if those families do not pay any kind of tax that helps support the schools. Unless you can demonstrate that these people pay NO taxes that help support the schools, your arguement is flawed.

That's a major issue I have in this, an incredible lack of understanding of macro economics by the anti-immigration types. Primary input of potential GDP? Population. More population, more potential GDP. How else will we keep up with China (economically)?

And by the way, my wife teaches those kids. White, black, and hispanic. She teaches them equally.

Check out my resume. I have both formal credentials attesting to a general knowledge of macroeconomics as well as an informal interest stretching back to high school.

The presence of illegal aliens is a net loss, when considering the taxes they pay and the taxpayer funded gov't services they consume. They are finding out all sorts of nasty little facts on the health care side of the house since fed.gov said they would kick in a bit to help defray the cost (also, taxpayer dollars). Google "parkland hospital illegal aliens cost" for a taste. Take a gander at the composition of Dallas ISD and some estimates at the proportion of illegals. The hot race issue in Dallas is not white/black or white/hispanic...it is black/hispanic, since the black community knows that they are dependant on the public schools and that every illegal in the Dallas ISD means less for them.

Statements such as, Primary input of potential GDP? Population. More population, more potential GDP. How else will we keep up with China (economically)? put your own understanding of macroeconomics in question. Population is only one factor to potential GDP. Some countries are growing their GDP without increasing their population in a significant fashion and without mass immigration (Singapore, S Korea, Japan, Ireland, among others). A large population of ignorant laborers will not cut it in this century. We need more unskilled laborers illiterate in two languages not at all to compete with the likes of China. This is not 1850.

I am sure your wife does a fine job teaching citizen & non-citizen alike. Thing is, for every minute she spends with an illegal, is a minute she doesn't spend with an American student. Tax monies spent to accomodate illegals & their progeny is tax money not spent on American citizen students to make them competitive with a rising China.

One final thought on population: How many responsible American families will choose not to have a child due to the increased cost of delivering that child? If it is population you want, remove the burden of non-paying illegals in our health care system and you would find more working & middle class Americans able to afford more children.

Car Knocker
August 29, 2006, 12:54 AM
If you are found to employ an illegal immigrant and did not follow the law by verifying their identity with a valid ID and social security card, you are fined 250,000 per illegal.

I don't believe that there is a mechanism in place to verify documentation.

roo_ster
August 29, 2006, 01:01 AM
I know some teachers in the local ISDs. In Ft Worth, the idea is to "teach to the middle" of the class's ability. Just which direction does the "middle" move toward when half the class barely speaks the language and desire only to follow in thier dad's footsteps and become a laborer?

Are the rest of the students well-served by this? Does that help us to compete with the rising economies of the world?

Desertdog
August 29, 2006, 01:14 AM
Maybe we should just move to Mexico City.

Biker
August 29, 2006, 01:17 AM
No need, Desertdog. Mexico City is moving here.

Biker:)

Erebus
August 29, 2006, 01:56 AM
Boy did this thread get hijacked. It went from a jackass throwing rocks at border patrol and getting shot to poor mexicans can't do anything wrong because they are poor mexicans. And if you say anything bad about them it's cause you are racist and not because they are CRIMINALS.

There is a very small minority of Mexicans that are in the country illegally that advocate portions of the US being transferred back to Mexico by force. They should be dealt with. You can deny they exist all you want your ignorance doesn't mean they doesn't exist.

The root of the entire problem is a border that is wide open. If they couldn't cross the border in anyway but legally there would be no problem.

Sindawe
August 29, 2006, 02:59 AM
The root of the entire problem is a border that is wide open. If they couldn't cross the border in anyway but legally there would be no problem.EXACTLY!


Make crossing the border illegally particularly painful(er) and potentially deadly(er) for those who chose to attempt such a crossing.

A freaking good fence would be a good start, say like that separating N. and S. Korea.

oae
August 29, 2006, 04:23 AM
A fence built on our southern border with Mexico is a start. But, our elected government servants of the people want an open border. Both political parties want an open border as multi-national corporations see this as a means for cheaper labor and both mainstream political parties see more potential voters for their party candidates. Ultimately, we as a sovereign nation are in danger as the North American Union is the goal of the real power brokers of our country.

The NWO or New World Order's agenda is one that includes a giant super nation of Mexico, the United States and Canada. Our rights as US citizens are not what is important to these elite few. They are getting the job done in measured steps. Our open borders could be secured, but our elected politicians have sold us out. NAFTA, CAFTA and the NAU are just the starting points.

A saying comes to mind. "We have the finest government money can buy."

We need term limits and the lobbyists need to go.

This particular border patrol agent will probably get repremanded or worse for shooting the rock thrower. I don't know the particular circumstances of this incident, but I do know that if someone was chucking a brick at my head, I would believe they were trying to kill me and if I had the means to stop them I would use deadly force if that's what it took. I guess these border patrol are lucky that they may be convicted by 12 instead of carried by 6.

the oae :banghead:

Keith Wheeler
August 29, 2006, 10:05 AM
Over a million cross our border illegaly every year, most mexican. No way I'm wrong. Even Stevie Wonder can see that. Can you?

Biker, I didn't say you wrong on the fact that many from south of our borders are illegally crossing annually. I said perhaps you're wrong that the majority of them are anti-American and want to change your life and this country. Maybe that's a difficult concept to understand, but the concepts are not mutually exclusive.

1) Guy throwing rocks? I wasn't there, but it's stupid and dangerous to throw rocks at a person armed with a firearm.

2) Do we have a control issue with our southern border? Obviously.

3) Is the best way to deal with that control issue to act like a bunch of fascists and suggest that anyone (women, children, whatever) crossing our borders should be shot? Probably not.

I think that those who honestly want to fix the problem while respecting the concepts of freedom supposedly so respected in this nation need to distance themselves from the "trash" spewing hatred of a loud minority of right (maybe too far) leaning individuals. It will only enhance your position.

Edit: (added)

There is a very small minority of Mexicans that are in the country illegally that advocate portions of the US being transferred back to Mexico by force. They should be dealt with. You can deny they exist all you want your ignorance doesn't mean they doesn't exist.

"Very small minority". I sure hope you weren't implying my comments by claiming someone ignorant denied these folks exist. Of course they do, simple bell curve reality of human expression. I am saying exactly what you are saying -- these anti-American people are a small minority, and making it sound like every latino is out to undermine our nation will only lead to worse issues, such as the previously mentioned attacks on American citizens of hispanic origin.

One more time. The answer to this problem is not to act like a fascist. The answer is very complicated, of course. It includes border control, business control, and a bit of knowledge. For instance can anyone here really say what impact, good or bad, the influx of "undocumented workers" is having on our economy? Until there is hard data to claim one way or another, any such claims are purely speculative and most likely purely political in nature.

We will only shoot ourselves in the foot if we throw out those who are helping this nation. I know here in Little Rock many neighborhoods that were horrible before the Mexicans moved in. They salaved many areas where the rich whites had fled and the poor folks had given up. Okay, many are "criminals", just like everyone who drank a beer during prohibition. Like Biker said, we're all "criminals", who doesn't break a minor law one way or another every day? Or do none of you folks who hate "criminals" speed? Just because there is a law there doesn't mean the law is just or working properly.

Do I think we need open borders? Of course not. We need thoughtful, useful plans that will preserve what this country stands for and will allow that opportunity to those who want to make it even better, no matter where they come from.

Biker
August 29, 2006, 10:11 AM
I've never advocated - anywhere - the shooting of illegal border crossers. However, if a bunch of guys are chucking big rocks at me, cancel Christmas - I'm gonna do some shooting.

Biker

wingman
August 29, 2006, 11:35 AM
these anti-American people are a small minority,

I believe at one time i would have agreed with that statement, however working and living near border over 30 years I have seen the changes first hand. The illegal of today is not what he/she was thirty years past. They seldom fought or ran from Border Patrol, ranchers gave them food and water. Now they break in homes, trailers, vacation homes,break down fences, etc

I have seen the change in schools, hospitals, crime rates, wages. The only winner in this mess is the wealthy the middle-class as usual takes a beating.

Mexico is dumping their worse and laughing all the way to bank at the crazy gringo's. Border towns that were at one time good places to live with a 50/50 ratio is now more Mexico that America. It is simply true and not saying there are not good people there however large groups that we have coming now many will never assimilate and hold our values.

Sealed borders and controlled immigration is the only answer if you want an American future for your family.

Bubbles
August 29, 2006, 11:47 AM
I don't believe that there is a mechanism in place to verify documentation.

1-800-772-6270

Give your Federal Employer ID Number, or FEIN, and the name of your business.

State your prospective employee's SSN, name, and Date of Birth from the information on the I-9 form.

They'll tell you that it either matches, or it doesn't match their records.

If there's no match, let the potential employee know that until the info on the I-9 can be verified, there's the door...

ETA:

Just to get this thread back on track, the rock-throwing started in an attempt to stop the BP agents from rescuing the driver, who was drowning, and one of the agents had already been struck in the head by a thrown rock. I don't see where the BP agents had much more choice.

Final thought - if thrown rocks don't count as lethal force, why is "death by stoning" a punishment in the ME?

cassandrasdaddy
August 29, 2006, 11:51 AM
all that tells you is if its a good number etc. it doesn't verify that the person using it is the right one.

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