Isosceles help

[Soybomb]

I'm curious which is the proper isosceles stance. Do both arms extend out from your body at angles with elbows bent or do you bring your strong arm in line with with your body? If you bring your arm in are you supposed to "lock up" a bit more by perhaps rotating your inner elbow up?

Here's an example you'll see the fold of my pale right elbow is flat with the horizon.
http://cyber-byte.com/photos/isosc.jpg

Also if you're doing a thumbs forward grip just where are you supposed to put the weak thumb? Can it rest against the bottom of the trigger guard or should it float? I figured its best to check and see and be sure I'm not developing bad habits now.

[Clipper]

I think the Iso grip is a bad habit all on it's own...I shoot Weaver or offhand.

[Soybomb]

I think the Iso grip is a bad habit all on it's own...I shoot Weaver or offhand.
Yay for you? ;)

[steveracer]

And nobody was able to help me. If you properly align the pistol with your shooting hand, it's completely impossible to obtain a comfortable iso stance. I have tried and tried, under intruction (Navy sent us to Mid-south and Blackwater) and still can't get it right. I shoot Weaver, of course, because it was the only thing I could find that worked, but I want to learn isoceles. It just seems like I'm twisting to get in position, and basiclly in a Weaver with my feet squared off. Somebody help us!!
(I do have faster transition times than my classmates from Pistol to carbine, because my feet are already in the right place with Weaver)

[pax]

Soybomb ~

Two articles for you, both with pictures:

http://www.corneredcat.com/ShootingBasics/stance.htm -- about stance

and

http://www.corneredcat.com/ShootingBasics/grip.htm -- about grip.

Biggest drawback to the thumbs-forward grip (which is a perfectly acceptable grip, and I'm not going to get into the religious flamewar that is sure to follow this!) ... where was I? Ah, yes. Drawback to thumbs-forward is that the right & left hands tend to come apart immediately after the shot fires, unless you consciously work to avoid this bad habit. Locking the thumbs down & together lessens (but does not entirely erase) the tendency for this to happen.

In Iso stance, you want the gun directly in front of your body, not lined up with one arm or the other. If you find yourself really wanting to align the sights along your shooting arm as you fire, you may be better off going with Chapman or Weaver. In any case, you really should learn to shoot competently in all the basic stances; this gives you the best flexibility for dealing with unexpected angles.

And one more article for you. This one isn't about grip, but about gun fit. It may explain what is happening with your grip, though: http://www.corneredcat.com/FirstGun/TryOnGun.htm

pax

[Correia]

Clipper, goodie for you. I've got about 95% of the master class competitive shooters in the country that disagrees with you, but oh well.

It is always hard to diagnose grip problems by looking at a picture, but it looks like your left hand isn't really on the grip. Try this. Take your right thumb totally off. Now mash your left hand onto the grip as high as you can, and now bring the other thumb down on top.

The biggest grip problem I see in my students is not allowing their left hand to touch the gun enough. They aren't letting their left do any of the work.

Pax, what I teach to keep the left hand from coming off the gun, is that they should actually be applying more grip pressure with the left than with the right. If the left is doing more squeezing and controlling, it isn't going to fly off or shift, and as an added bonus, the right hand can concentrate on trigger control with out being unneccesarily strained.

A good test. Get into your Iso stance, (with an unloaded gun) and have a friend stand off to the side and rack the slide, hard. If you have a good stance, your body will not move off balance. If you have to adjust your grip, you don't have a good grip.

Once you've got your stance and grip down in dryfire, and you are actually shooting, the sight should track up on the shot, and then right back down. If you have to pause and adjust your hands, you need a better grip. Some people have a hard time with this, so have somebody video tape or watch your hands.

On the elbows, I teach to punch straight out. Don't tweak, or twist, or go at any angle, because all of that is going to fly out the window under stress anyway.

Normally most of us start with the gun at a low ready with our hands together and then whale it up and out. I've noticed that this leads to all sorts of contortions.

Try this. Place the gun higher on your chest. Hand has met hand, up on the sternum, gun pointing outward. Now punch the gun straight out. (as opposed to bringing it up onto the target). This has the advantage of letting your arms move naturally, and also, as the front sight dives into your vision, your eye will automatically want to shift focus from the target to the front sight.

[Black Majik]

Stance and grip is a funny thing, you have to play around with it and see which fits you best. Pax's thread is an excellent read for proper stance and grip.

I started off shooting weaver, because that was what was most comfortable to me. But I soon realized that it didn't give me much movement in motion. Since one hand is almost locked, with your body bladed, turning to quickly acquire targets became pretty limited. Take a look at most of your top USPSA/IPSC shooters, see any of them walking around funny with weaver stance? It's good for the range, and some defensive applications, but I eventually progressed to the modified weaver stance.

I've found that the isosceles/mod. iscosceles stance helps to give a wide range of motion, with a more stable platform. Regular isosceles has both feet parallel together, arms out almost equidistant (but unlocked). Modified weaver's main difference is having your support foot a step forward towards your target (right handed, left foot is forward & vice versa). This gives a little more support with your body leaning forward towards your target.

The elbows should be bent, this will help manage the recoil. It's up to you really, since I like my elbows straighter to provide a longer sight radius.

Regarding grip, I shoot thumb forward with my support thumb lightly resting against the frame (slidestop on 1911s). Just not enough to influence my accuracy as I press the trigger.

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d194/RChang824/RichardUSPSA4-23-06.jpg

My stance (as ugly as it might be :D ) mod. isosceles, high thumb, thumbs forward

[S&Wfan]

Your stance looks perfectly right to me . . . that is what you mainly see at pistol matches where competitors have to shoot multiple targets, move, reload and do it quickly and accurately.

[warmrain]

If the grip is correct in your photo then the Iso stance is incorrect for you... You and your pistol and the grip are showing me that you should be shooting Weaver...

The same thing can happen in reverse too, the pistol pointing the other way... THAT is an Iso shooter.

Do this... Start the grip with your trigger finger placement. Do not even grip the gun. Pick it up with your left hand and place your trigger finger in the optimum spot on the pad. Then wrap your hand around the grip.

If the slide is aligned with your fore arm the gun is a perfect fit, shoot either stance. If the gun points right then if you move into an Iso stance you will see how the slide is pointing straight ahead.

Similarly if the slide is pointing straight or left, moving into an Weaver stance brings the muzzle straight ahead.

This is an simplified and abbreviated explaination, but give it a try and see what you think...

(From the Firearms Academy of Seattle...)

Best, Cars

[ColoradoKid]

The "dirty little secret" that no one is willing to own up to among the "thumbs forward" crowd...IS that it is mainly and foremost a COMPETITION grip system. Designed, in the 80's, by an IPSC shooter(Brian Enos) for competition shooters. Todd Jarrett and his people are running around the country promoting this grip to any and all as the "greatest thing since night baseball"..OK, but there is an element of risk here when "Joe Receational Shooter" adopts it at face value and starts using it at his range etc. Maybe when he goes out hunting etal. The grip is an advanced level system, which requires and inordinate amount of dry practice to master and control. It is complex...more complex than the average weekend shooter can understand and master. IT is a great grip, but needs to stay in the competitive community or taken up by only the more advanced and upper level shooters who possess the ability to master it. Then, there is a benefit to the use of the grip. Presently it is being over sold by folks in pursuit of the almighty dollar.......The Weaver system is still the best grip system for those wanting to learn the skills necessary for the Art of Self Defense......period..

[Correia]

Colorado, so what you are saying, is that thumbs forwards is superior, but that most people, though smart enough to use a deadly weapon, are too dumb to figure out how to hold the gun right?

Weird, I can teach the thumbs forward grip to a new student in about ten minutes. Yes, you do need to dry fire practice. You need to with any system. Maybe my average student is smarter then the "average weekend shooters" you know.

And it isn't a 'dirty little secret'. It came about in competition shooting first. So did the Weaver stance. Big whoop. Competition shooting is what pushes the boundries.

That said, most of the federal agents and police that I've worked with recently are now teaching some form of thumb forward grip. It just works better. Anything that gets more meat on steel is going to improve your control.

And what exactly is an inordiante amount of dryfire and practice? Is it easier to learn to shoot with a more ineffecient and slower method first, and then relearn it so you can go faster later, or should you just learn the method that grants you more control first? If your "average weekend shooter" would spend twenty minutes a week dryfiring, they would be about 200% better than they are now.

[pax]

(See what I meant about a religious flamewar?) :uhoh:

pax

[Correia]

And I've got to wonder about anybody who ends an argument with a statement like:

"The Weaver system is still the best grip system for those wanting to learn the skills necessary for the Art of Self Defense......period.."

Why? Iso is easier to teach. I can take a bunch of new folks who've never touched a handgun before, and teach them an iso stance and grip in about a quarter of the time it takes to get them to a halfway decent Weaver. Even taught on both, I find that about 10-15% of people take to a Weaver better. Good for them. Whatever works.

Police Departments don't really teach Weaver anymore for two main reasons. First, when you have armor on, Iso shows more protection towards the bad guy. (moot point for most of us). Second, it is FAR easier to teach. Even hard core Weaver shooters have to admit that it is more complicated.

And even then, when the adrenalin hits, most people are going to crouch and face the threat anyway.

So I'm missing the part where Weaver rules... Period.

[Correia]

pax, you ain't seen nothing yet. :)

I suppose I'm just teaching thumbs forward iso because of my "pursuit of the almighty dollar" or something, but I seriously want to know why Weaver rules. Period. Because I don't see it.

Maybe I'm just a silly gamer.

[ShackleMeNot]

The "dirty little secret" that no one is willing to own up to among the "thumbs forward" crowd...IS that it is mainly and foremost a COMPETITION grip system. Designed, in the 80's, by an IPSC shooter(Brian Enos) for competition shooters. Todd Jarrett and his people are running around the country promoting this grip to any and all as the "greatest thing since night baseball"..OK, but there is an element of risk here when "Joe Receational Shooter" adopts it at face value and starts using it at his range etc. Maybe when he goes out hunting etal. The grip is an advanced level system, which requires and inordinate amount of dry practice to master and control. It is complex...more complex than the average weekend shooter can understand and master. IT is a great grip, but needs to stay in the competitive community or taken up by only the more advanced and upper level shooters who possess the ability to master it. Then, there is a benefit to the use of the grip. Presently it is being over sold by folks in pursuit of the almighty dollar.......The Weaver system is still the best grip system for those wanting to learn the skills necessary for the Art of Self Defense......period..


:confused:

Wow.

So, it's all a conspiracy by gamers to “sell” an overly complex grip to the average shooter who will never be able to master it?

Please tell me you’ve written a book. If you haven’t, you should. I'm sure there's more of this stuff you haven't shared in this thread that would help us all learn the skills necessary for the Art of Self Defense.

[pax]

Correia ~

Dogmatism gets my hackles up, that's all. And yes, I saw his first. :)

My take?

Some folks shoot better in Weaver, some shoot better in Iso, some shoot better in Chapman.

Weaver doesn't work if you don't have a gun that fits your hand perfectly. Most people don't have guns that fit them perfectly. Jeff Cooper swore by Weaver because he shot a gun that fit his hand perfectly.

Isosceles works well for people who are cross-dominant, or who have guns slightly too large for their hands. These two categories of shooters combined make up the vast majority. But Iso isn't for everyone; the guy who started this thread may be an example of someone who'd be better off with Weaver or Chapman.

Thumbs forward vs thumbs curled down has nothing to do with Weaver vs Iso, but people insist on confounding the two for some reason.

Thumbs forward works best if you shoot a 1911, because it's easier to flick the safety off without disturbing your grip. Some 1911 shooters prefer the thumbs curled down; these folks have to train more for speed than those who stick with thumbs forward.

If you don't have a 1911 style thumb safety, thumbs curled is probably better for combat shooting no matter what the competition guys say. First, your hand is designed to grasp with your thumbs. If you want to hold on to something tightly, so that it cannot be grabbed away from you, you're going to lock your thumb down rather than leaving it sticking straight along the side. That's the way God designed your hand to work, after all. Second, thumbs curled provides a natural degree of stability when the shooter starts doing one-handed work. With the thumb straight, there's less recoil control when shooting one-handed. Although a thumbs-forward shooter can transfer to curled thumb when shooting one handed, most don't -- and most people shooting normal defensive guns in defensive calibers need that added stability and recoil control, no matter what the high volume competition shooters are able to do with their light recoil guns.

That said, if someone ain't comfortable with thumbs curled, they shouldn't shoot thumbs curled. Everyone's hands are different. Getting dogmatic about minutae like this is one way to annoy just about everybody.

pax

[Correia]

Agreed. Like I said, some portion of the population falls into each. Ben Shepherd posts on this board. Sometimes we teach together. He is hard core Weaver, and he is hell on wheels with a .357. His body type and some prior injuries pretty much make that his only option.

I wasn't trying to lump iso and thumbs forward together, but was rather responding to the Colorado Kid.

From what I've seen, thumbs curled or forward is dependant on hand size and thumb length. I've got huge hands, so thumbs curled down is almost impossible for me to use.

and edit, light recoil? :p You've been shooting too much IPSC. We shoot real guns too. :)

[pax]

and edit, light recoil? You've been shooting too much IPSC. We shoot real guns too.
:D Good point.

Dangit, Larry, I wish you guys lived closer. We could have some fun on the range I betcha.

pax

[warmrain]

pax, Your post #16 is right on... !

As an aside, I always teach Iso as a starting stance, but it is curious how many students start to naturally just assume the Weaver (or modified Weaver) slowly over the course of lessons... :uhoh:

[ShackleMeNot]

As an aside, I always teach Iso as a starting stance, but it is curious how many students start to naturally just assume the Weaver (or modified Weaver) slowly over the course of lessons...

Put those same students through a few stressful Force on Force scenarios and see how many start using an "iso-like" squared stance.

[warmrain]

ShackleMeNot,

I'll have to try that... Interestingly enough, I am a Weaver shooter... :uhoh:

[Steve in PA]

Don not lock out the elbows as pictured in the link with the female. The elbows should be slightly bent.

[warmrain]

Right, not locked... It's like standing at attention, you want you legs straight but not locked. You want to be able to keep that position for awhile if required without lack of blood flow, etc.

[ColoradoKid]

Corriera,
Just read my post for what it sais....that's all..some of the information you put up in your posts, I found to be a bit ridiculous as well. You sound like some self ordained expert, whose teachings we are all obliged to have swallow at face value. You have your beliefs and opinions and I have mine. The last time I checked ...we both have our rights, on this forum, to state those beliefs and opinions, as we see fit, as long as we act like gentlemen. Not make light of an opinion and dismiss on face, because it does not agree with your beliefs or teachings. The problems with folks like you is that you begin to believe that your opinion is the only one that matters around here and the rest of us better not offer anything that might differ in the least. One of the first things I learned as an instructor, was that other people and students , as well, do have, from time to time, something worthwhile to say. Evidently, you have not learned that lesson yet......Think about , my friend. you need to be more open to opinions of a contrary nature. Your precious "thumbs forward" grip is NOT the end all be all for the shooting community...Good Day, Sir....

[GoRon]

The farther along I got in my practical shooting experience the more I realized I was squaring up to the target. My stance started as weaver and would now probably be called a modified weaver.

Thumbs forward on top of the safety (1911 guy here) was revolutionary to me. My speed and accuracy both improved significantly.

[warmrain]

"The problems with folks like you is..."

"you ... believe that your opinion is the only one that matters..."

"you have not learned that lesson yet..."

"The problems with folks like you [is]..."


Though sometimes my tongue bleeds... I almost always succeed... :rolleyes:

[MrZ]

"A good test. Get into your Iso stance, (with an unloaded gun) and have a friend stand off to the side and rack the slide, hard. If you have a good stance, your body will not move off balance. If you have to adjust your grip, you don't have a good grip."

Good tip.

Don't get so caught up in exactly "how" to assume "the" grip or stance. Everybody is different, and what works very well for some, doesn't work so well for others. IMO, focus on the "why" of any specific technique...

WHY use an iso over a weaver...
WHY use a thumbs forward grip...

If you know what it is that is trying to be accomplished, than you can modify YOUR technique to meet the same goal. For an example, I lock my thumbs because I shoot better using that technique, but if I apply pressure with the very tip of my non firing thumb, I have a tendancy to dive the barrel, where as if I apply NO pressure with the very tip of my thumb, I don't have this problem. That's just ME though, but it works...

Use some proven techniques as a good foundation, than tweek it to your needs, and test it with dry and live fire.

[Jeff22]

VARIATIONS OF THE STANDING POSITION FOR THE HANDGUN:

THE TRADITIONAL WEAVER STANCE:
(1.) Body bladed about 45 degrees in relation to the target (boxer stance)
(2.) Legs are locked at the knees.
(3.) Firing arm is slightly bent at the elbow (pre-lock).
(4.) Support arm elbow is sharply bent and pointing down at the lead foot.
(5.) Firing hand pushes out.
(6.) Support hand pulls in
(7.) Because the bent arms may lower the position of the gun, the head may have to be tilted to the side to achieve proper sight alignment.

The advantage of the traditional Weaver Stance is that the bent arms and isometric tension of the pushing and pulling muscles create a shock absorber effect that significantly reduces felt recoil and snaps the gun rapidly back on target. Since the gun is closer to the body, it feels lighter and in fact exerts less leverage weight on bent arms than it would on fully extended, locked out arms.

The disadvantages are that the stance is uncomfortable for many people. Shooters with shorter arms, greater upper body mass, or women with big bosoms (!) find it difficult to blade in relation to the target and reach across their chest. Sometimes the strong arm will over-power the weak arm, sending bullets high to the left side for the right handed shooter. More often, the shooter may not lock the elbow of the support arm down enough, which results in the stance becoming unlocked and causes shots to drift low right for the right handed shooter.

THE CHAPMAN MODIFIED WEAVER STANCE:
1.) Body slightly bladed in relation to the target.
2.) Weak side foot forward
3.) Strong side foot back
4.) Weight balanced slightly on the lead foot.
5.) Center of gravity slightly forward.
6.) The foot position should be like driving a punch -- the forward leg bears the weight and the rear leg is the drive leg.
7.) Elbow of the strong arm is locked.
8.) Elbow of the support arm is bent down and aimed at the lead foot
9.) Lead shoulder over the lead knee
!0.) Isometric Tension -- strong hand pushes out and weak hand pulls back.
11.) Bring the head down to the sights. If you bring the gun UP to your eye,
you may shoot HIGH.
12.) Cheekweld the side of your jaw on the strong side upper arm, just like
cheeking a rifle stock. This consistently positions your eyes in relation
to the sights, every time.
13.) Wide stance -- pyramidal base

(this position is my personal favorite by far. I find that bringing my head down to the sights, establishing a cheek weld with the upper arm on my strong side, and keeping the center of gravity forward works very well when firing multiple rapid shots or when engaging multiple targets. )



MODIFIED ISOCELES POSITION (aka the "turret"):
(1.) Wide stance -- pyramidal base
(2.) Weak side foot forward
(3.) Strong side foot back
(4.) Weight on the lead foot/shoulders forward of the feet
(5.) Center of gravity slightly forward
(6.) Arms locked out
(7.) Slight crouch -- kneels unlocked
(8.) Lean into the gun

With the torso bent slightly at the waist and the gun straight out ahead in both hands, the body is balanced by the flexed knees, which automatically compensate for balance by lowering the center of gravity for the body in the pelvis. This technique can be made even stronger by taking a step toward the target with the weak foot and bending the lead knee, applying the weight forward. Think of it as leaning into the gun.

The body is now poised to move instantly forward or back, or side to side, and a considerable portion of upper body weight, coupled with the muscular tension of the locked arms, helps snap the handgun down in recoil.

(this position is essentially Isoceles from the waist up and Weaver from the waist down, and seems to be the most comfortable for many people)

Universal Fighting Stance (UFS) (as taught by Trident Concepts)
(1.) lower unit (base)
(2.) shoulder width apart
(3.)Strong foot slightly behind the weak foot.
(4.) Body weight distributed equally on the toes.
(5.) Feet pressing out into the ground.
(6.) Knees slightly bent.
(7.) Hips square to the target

Upper unit (index)
(1.) Aggressive forward body position (feet, knees & head alignment)
(2.)Shoulders square to the target
(3.) Arms naturally extended, but not hyper-extended.
(4.) Muscle recruitment of the core muscle group to support recoil management.
(5.) Elbows directed down and not out.
(6.)Weapon brought up into the visual plane.

Firing grip or mount
(1.)a pistol, the strong hand is placed high on the tang of the weapon as possible.
(2.)The strong hand grips by applying pressure front to back.
(3.)The trigger finger is placed on the trigger index without making contact with the frame or slide.
(4.)The weak hand’s thumb is indexed towards the threat exposing the heel of the hand.
(5.)The weak hand’s thumb is indexed along the frame of the handgun and not the slide.
(6.)The weak hand’s heel is placed in contact with the grip panels of the pistol.
(7.)The weak hand grips the pistol by applying pressure side to side.
(8.) Equal pressure placed on all contact surfaces of the pistol causing as much friction as possible forming a neutral grip.

UNIVERSAL SHOOTING PLATFORM (USP) STANDING: (as taught by H&K Academy)
? Feet, knees, Hips and Shoulders are all square to the target
? Toes are pointed toward the target
? Strong foot slightly back
? Shoulders are rolled forward
? Elbows are tucked in
? Slight upper body lean toward the target
? Flex in the knees
? Binocular vision of the target
? Body armor squared to the threat
? This fighting stance is a natural reaction in a fight or flight situation

There are many different variations of the standing position to shoot the handgun. Some people like one, and some people like another. In my opinion, there is no single "right" answer -- it depends on the shooter's size and the length of their arms and the amount of flexibility they have and other individual features.

When training police recruits, we teach the Chapman Stance as the primary and a modern Isoceles as a secondary technique. I suspect that very few instructors teach the traditional highly-bladed-to-the-target Weaver stance as a primary technique anymore. And it doesn't matter -- what works for you, works for you.

[Correia]

Hey Colorado.

I teach both.

At no point in time do I ever teach that there is one absolute truth. I believe I even said that in this thread. In fact, I tell my students to beware of any instructor who teaches there is any one absolute best technique, gun, ammo, etc.

You are the one with the Weaver is the BEST SELF DEFENSE THING EVER... PERIOD.

So lighten up Francis. I never claimed to be an expert. I'm just a guy that teaches this stuff. In fact, I'm far from an expert. Notice that I even pointed out other people (also on this board) who I teach with, who are hard core Weaver people. (and shoot thumbs curled)

You are the one saying that your students are too dumb to learn one technique and that it is really some sort of sinister Gamer method of making money or something.

I think you could probably take all of the things you said in your last post, and flip them around and read them for yourself. But what do I know, I'm just a sinister gamer who don't know nothing and hasn't learned my lessons yet. :)

[pax]

Steve in PA ~

Actually, elbows locked vs elbows unlocked in Iso stance is another one of the holy flamewars. :)

Ayoob teaches elbows locked. Enos shoots with them unlocked.

*shrug*

My observation has been that a felt index (eg locked) works considerably better in low light conditions, while unlocked works better while moving. Locked provides faster and more consistent recoil control for me when I am not moving, however, and because it relies upon bones rather than muscle, a lot of people with poor upper body strength find the same to be true for them.

Again, you've got to know them all, and know when their use is or is not appropriate for you.

pax

[JohnKSa]

I've pretty much come to the conclusion that there is no RIGHT stance or grip.

There are some WRONG ones, but there's not a RIGHT one that works for everyone.

I started out trying to match up with this stance or that stance. This hand like this, these fingers like this, that arm like that, feet like this, etc. It finally got to be ridiculous. I finally got some ideas and then just shot a lot. I kept doing things that worked for me and stopped doing things that didn't. I ended up with a stance and grip that works very well for me, but it's not necessarily any stance found in a book or class. I figured out some things that I needed to do, but mostly I figured out things NOT to do. And, I found that it's sometimes useful vary my stance or grip depending on the circumstances of the situation. Not using some formula or rule, but just to keep things lined up, comfortable and working.

I try to give students pointers, make sure they don't do things that are going to cause problems immediately or later on and then let them settle into something that's comfortable for them and that works. People are individuals who need some help how to solving their unique problems using their unique set of tools (gun, arms, hands, fingers, etc.). It's not about making them in your own image.