Denied check = police presence???


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Abby
August 28, 2006, 08:22 PM
:confused:

OK - so let's establish right off the bat that I'm NOT talking about ME.

I was at the range today. It was early, so it was just one guy (first in line), then me. Of course, since I wanted to just hop on the range, put a few rounds down range, and get home in short order, HE was buying his first handgun (it seemed). :banghead:

Now, this guy was being WALKED through the yellow form. He had some sort of accent and his english wasn't great, so the woman behind the counter seemed to be reading the entire form to him.

When she got to the part about misdemeanor crimes of domestic violence, he started getting all wiggly. Apparently, he'd done something sometime and wasn't sure if it qualified, blah blah blah.

Now here's the part where I have a question- she told him he she suggested he find out about it (whether his incident was or was not a disqualifier) before she called it in, since if she DID in and it WAS, he'd be in some sort of immediate trouble involving police coming, etc etc.

Now, I was just eavesdropping, but I was curious. If you are DISQUALIFIED from purchasing a firearm, but you TRY, will you just get denied, or will the No Guns Police descend upon the retailer like...I dunno...Batman and Robin to that big Bat Light???

I'm not sure if that would be a good thing or a bad thing, but I am curious now. Anybody know? Does it vary from state to state?

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geekWithA.45
August 28, 2006, 08:31 PM
In NJ, I understand that you can expect a police visit for a NICS denial.

NJ is the point of contact for NICS, and I'm also given to understand that the NJ State Police gun cops also have ATF courtesy badges.

Handgun Midas
August 28, 2006, 08:35 PM
I was surprised when I heard that too.

I was helping a work friend of mine pick out a revolver (6" GP100) and he had told me he had a non-violent misdemeanor on his record from a few years back (he's just now 21). He was worried about it so I asked the store clerk.

We were told that it is indeed a crime simply to attempt to purchase if you have a felony on your record or are otherwise barred from owning. Might be a felony in itself, I forget.

I looked into it a bit more on my own, and found that, at least in my state, that the type of misdemeanor that can disqualify you from the 2A is if there was a sentence of one year or more possible to the misdemeanor; this prison time did not have to be served or even sentenced to bar you, just that it was on the books as a possible consequence.

My friend was also told that he could check his 2A eligibility, and possibly even check his 2A rights re-instated, by contacting the local sheriff's department, which of course he hasn't done in the past three months. I guess some people are too nervous to talk to the police in any fashion.

Stephen Ewing
August 28, 2006, 08:46 PM
Let me tell you about the HPD officer who interrupted a NICS check, identified himself to the NICS operator, said he'd once arrested the purchaser and had testified at the trial where the purchaser was convicted of a felony, and then asked if the nice FBI operator would like him to arrest the purchaser as long as he was there witnessing a felony in front of his eyes?

They told him not to do anything, so he didn't. The check was a delay, then denied. As far as I know, nothing ever came of it except a refund. Neither the police officer involved nor the store manager making the phone call ever got over that one.

Yes, it is a crime. No, they don't enforce it.

:banghead:

FTF
August 29, 2006, 12:07 AM
I was denied once. Of course, I successfully appealed it 4 months later.

No black helicopters, no ninjas or anything.

I would have been pissed if the cops did show up. It was a friggin mistake on the part of NICS, not a disqulalifying condition on my part. I shouldn't be arrested for that! That's like arresting every 5'10", John Smith in California since one of them is a convicted murderer.

Now, if my appeal would have been rejected or if I had an oustanding warrant or something, then by all means arrest me. Don't arrest me based on some turd at the NICS not doing his freaking job.

Bubbles
August 29, 2006, 09:34 AM
When she got to the part about misdemeanor crimes of domestic violence, he started getting all wiggly. Apparently, he'd done something sometime and wasn't sure if it qualified, blah blah blah.

Now here's the part where I have a question- she told him he she suggested he find out about it (whether his incident was or was not a disqualifier) before she called it in, since if she DID in and it WAS, he'd be in some sort of immediate trouble involving police coming, etc etc.

My guess, having worked on the other side of the counter for an FFL, is that the saleswoman strongly suspected that the potential purchaser was a prohibited person, and she figured that if she told him the cops would show up if he failed the background check, he would leave.

unspellable
August 29, 2006, 09:46 AM
98-44/100% of the denials are because of screwed up records. In my own case I had a denial and never heard anything from law enforcement during the six weeks it took to get it ironed out other than conversations involved in getting it ironed out. But this ain't NJ or **********.

ApexinM3
August 29, 2006, 10:15 AM
I was denied (after being placed on hold for 3 days) as well. It was on a Ruger 10/22, which in the Peoples Republik of Maryland is not a regulated firearm & can be sold on a form 4473. I'm in the process of fighting it now (finger print ID bulls**t, long waiting time, blah blah), but so far no JBT have raided my house Hollywood SWAT-style.

Interesting thing is, in the PRofM, I purchased an RPK47 as a regulated firearm. These go thru a seperate background check performed by the MSP which provides its own NICS number. This is because my name was much easier cleared within MD than the .gov types.:banghead:

As for the person attempting the purchase: it is only illegal if he was CONVICTED of a felony, not just merely charged.

mp510
August 29, 2006, 02:21 PM
Now, this guy was being WALKED through the yellow form.
If this was a few days ago,and he's still using yellow one's, your dealer is gonna be screwed. The 4473 is white now.

Abby
August 29, 2006, 02:57 PM
It's WHITE now???? Crap. I guess I'm going to have to remember the number now instead of just refering to it as the "yellow form" (or I could just refer to it as "the one with all the questions.") ;)

Yeah, it was yesterday.

And I think Bubbles may have been on to something...the clerk was starting to sound a little worn out.

unspellable
August 29, 2006, 06:27 PM
They wait until you have all the spaces memorized and are filling out the form by rote with out reading it. Then they change it so you will put the wrong answer down and then they GOTCHA!

How about the BS about you have to spell everything out, no abbreviations for state or Mt. Whazzit for Mount Whazzit? No Happy Rd for Happy Road.

The BATF is a rogue outfit. People predicted for years ahead of time that Ruby Ridge and Waco were going to happen.

gezzer
August 30, 2006, 07:05 PM
What she did is a valid option. An FFL may refuse to ANYONE per BATF.

In the scenario stated I would have stopped the transaction the same way. Get funky on any of the questions and you are done. Make like it may be a straw buy- you are done simple as that.

I am NOT creating a felony for anyone’s benefit. Give us FFL holders some credit for that. We are the first to get the info on the check if it does not look right it stops. We may have no idea who you are if you are not a regular customer don't take it personal.

Our ATF inspector stated call the police on a denial as a felony has very likely to have occurred and there is probable cause for calling or arrest and to let the PD sort it out.

dot 43
August 30, 2006, 08:25 PM
No abbreviations was always one of my favorites. The last generation of forms had "reponse" printed on the back side, too.

Pacer
August 30, 2006, 09:10 PM
I have been in the local "guys toy store" when an individual had an outstanding bench warrent. Here in PA, the PaSP operator (NICS contact) put you on hold, next you know there is a 'swarm' of PD enering the shop.

This was witnessed by me, not once, but three seperate occassions.

So yes, it can happen. Sometimes it is a mistake, but in all three of these occurances the applier left the shop in manacles.

Pacer

Art Eatman
August 30, 2006, 09:26 PM
It was just a few years ago when the anti-gun crowd was baying that Brady checks had denied something like 89,000 "illegal gun sales" in just one year.

There were something like three, count 'em, three (as in "3") actual filings on felonious people who had tried to commit the new felony of buying this prohibited weapon.

It later came out that the vast majority of denials were due to the very imperfect records available to the background checking...

Art

KWM
August 30, 2006, 11:36 PM
APEXINM3,
You may want to check on the MD law. I remember a story in the Cumberland Times where a man in Cumberland went to purchase a gun, and was denied because he had been charged with assaulting his neighbor in a dispute many years before. The police did a SWAT type of raid on his house a week later, and took all of his guns. He was never convicted of the crime of assault just charged. The States Attorney said that because he was charged with a crime that could have lead to a 1-year jail sentence they had the right to take his guns, and they charged him with an illegal attempt to purchase a firearm. It took the local state delegate (a personal friend of his) to get his guns back, but only if he agreed that they would be his wife's guns and he would not use them. He appealed to the BATFE and they said that the state had the right to prosecute him. Of course you know our States Attorney in MD would go out of his way to make life tough on any law-abiding citizen who dares to try and come up against his rules on firearms.

solareclipse
August 31, 2006, 02:39 AM
nope. the only time they will come after you is if they are actively looking for you (and you basically tell them where you are) or if the gun is transfered to you and they find out "post mortem" that it shouldn't have been.


i fly through the 4473. my ffl is constantly amazed how it takes me 30 seconds to do the whole thing

KWM
September 1, 2006, 09:44 PM
solareclipse,

You can not comprehend having to live in this state where if you own a gun you are the enemy. The States Attorney here makes up his own rules regarding how to enforce the firearms laws. We are now in an election where if the present governor is not reelected we face more gun bans and an all out assault of our 2nd amendment rights!

Optical Serenity
September 1, 2006, 09:46 PM
Now, I was just eavesdropping, but I was curious. If you are DISQUALIFIED from purchasing a firearm, but you TRY, will you just get denied, or will the No Guns Police descend upon the retailer like...I dunno...Batman and Robin to that big Bat Light???


I assume you're trying to be cute and not blame police officers for something they are required to do. Its a job.

That being said, as an officer here in Georgia, it is rare to have to go to a FFL after a NICS denial. Sometimes though, actually, the majority of the time, the NICS check actually gets denied due to outstanding warrant. In which case, I'm sure you understand why a Police response is needed.

Abby
September 1, 2006, 11:55 PM
OS - I certainly understand that police are required to do what they are required to do. In fact, what I thought was odd was the mental image of some small group within the Tampa PD with no mission other than racing to the scene when a 4473 is denied.

I envisioned a couple of cops who'd ended up with a SWEET GIG, just hanging around and doing little until a specially-designed light in their car (I picture this light as having a pistol on it, with a line through said pistol) flares up. :D

I have no problem with cops. Never had a bad experience with any of 'em. But I had a rough time imagining there were enough EXTRA cops around here to always have some ready to respond to a denied form.

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