[resqbubba]

I have been looking and can't find the answer I am looking for. Just how reliable are Kel-Tec Handguns?? I am not looking to go to the range day after day with one, but if I need to shoot, I want to know I will be fine! I like the size of them as a pocket gun. I wonder though if I am better off with my trusty S&W 642. The price of the Kel-Tec is very, very affordable and that is very, very scary!!! Any thoughts are always appreciated!!!!

Thanks

[MCgunner]

Check the archives for KT. There are KT bashers here, but I'm not one of 'em. I've got around 10K+ rounds through my 9 year old P11 and it's never had a jam or a problem and I've never fluffed or buffed or had to deal with what I hear is the best customer service in the industry. The gun is very accurate, the trigger very smooth, long, but very smooth, and it's 100% reliable. I do clean and lube my gun regularly, probably lavish excessive attention to it, but I do that with any weapon I'm trusting my life to.

You might go to http://www.ktog.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi#10 and introduce your self to the nice folks there and read some of the posts there, the ins and outs, the pros and the cons.

[JDGray]

Affordable doesn't always denote cheap. I'd classify my P11 as I would my Rugers, not over priced, and 100% reliable.:)

[Atticus]

I'm happy with my P3AT 2nd gen. All makers produce some lemons...but at least Keltec seems to care about problems, and works to eliminate them.

[Blue .45]

I bought a used 1rst gen. P32 a couple of months ago.I don't consider it a good range gun alhtough, some have put thousands of rounds through theirs. Mine has been very reliable and I would not hesitate to buy another.
Click here for another good Kel Tec site. http://www.ktrange.com/

[Deles136]

I have carried Kel-Tec pistols, P-11, P-32, Now P-3AT, for the last 8 years and never had any problems with any of them.

[Geno]

And it better work...it's my 1st back-up. It is also the 1st back-up for many police officers.

Doc2005

[Hypnogator]

My "always" gun is a Kel-Tec P-32, but I carry it a lot and shoot it a little. :cool:

OTOH, I got rid of my P-11 because it physically b-r-o-k-e three times while I was shooting it, all of which rendered it inoperable. After the third breakage, Kel-Tec replaced it with an entirely new P-11 with my old SN#. Being a newer generation, it would have probably been reliable, but I just couldn't trust it not to break 2 rounds into a 3-round gunfight. Had less than 1,000 rds through it all together, very few of which were +P. :uhoh:

I now carry a Taurus PT-145 Millennium Pro. Have about 2,200 rds through it with no problems. :cool:

[Soybomb]

Here's the deal, any gun you buy needs to be tested before you trust it, even that brand new revolver. My new S&W 642 was unreliable right out of the box and had to go back for repair. I've also had a kel-tec that had to go back for repair. S&W has better service, but both are quite excellent. Both fixed their guns, and both guns work 100% now. I went out with some friends and their new p32 this weekend and it was 100%. I'd not hesitate to buy from either company again.

[ugaarguy]

I have been looking and can't find the answer I am looking for. Just how reliable are Kel-Tec Handguns?? http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=218146 Well, after seeing Kel-Tecs get bashed I opened that poll. I think the votes speak for themselves.

The price of the Kel-Tec is very, very affordable and that is very, very scary!!! Any thoughts are always appreciated!!!!
Kel-Tec is a great company IMO. They've kept their production in the US, offer a quality product at a great price, and stand behind it with a lifetime warranty. That's a rarity in today's market, and they're a company I'll happily support by purchasing their products.

[1 old 0311]

Or this poll? www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=160074&highlight=keltec

[mainmech48]

All I can say is that my P-32 is (except when sleeping or bathing) is always on my person. It was semi-difficult to master its looong trigger pull and strange sight set-up, but it has been absolutely reliable and nothing has broken in nearly 1K rds. of assorted ball and Gold Dot HPs.

My P-11 has been likewise totally reliable with both 115 and 124 gr. ball or JHPs. If I'd break down and practice more until I could shoot it as well as my beloved old Star M-43, I would have no qualms about using it as one of my primary warm weather/light clothing CCWs.

I've heard and read all the bashes here and a couple of other places. Can't discount the possibility that some might well be justified, but my own experiences make me sprinkle a good dash of salt on 'em.

My only experience with their CS has been to order a couple of extra mags for each and grip extension baseplates for the P-11's. Fast delivery and no hassles whatever.

Not everybody can afford a Kahr, Mini Glock or the like. IMO, the Kel-Tecs fill a very real and valuable niche quite well.

[MR.G]

I usually carry a P-11 or a P-3AT in my front pocket. Both have fired over 400 rounds without any problems.

[the naked prophet]

For what it is (an affordable gun until you can afford a better one) I think it's great. I carried one for over a year and I never felt outgunned or had any less confidence in it than I do in any other gun I carry. I got a better job and bought a Browning Hi-Power and others since then.

I traded it for a Taurus 85 stainless, mostly because I shoot a lot, and I was going to wear it out before long. If you can afford enough ammo to wear it out, you can afford a better gun. All of my current guns are "heirloom guns" which will have many thousands of rounds through them before I pass them on to my children.

Be aware before you buy one, the reason they are less expensive is that the manufacturer skips a few finishing operations. Those few operations save you a lot of money, and if you're handy with sandpaper then it's not a big deal. Do the fluff&buff and you should be fine. For a gun that I'd pay more than $275, I would not expect to need to do a F&B. But a Kel-Tec is a quality gun which is just a tad rough. The Jennings, etc. are just junk and can't be improved by a F&B.

[TC-TX]

I carry one as a BUG every day...

HUNDREDS of rounds, not a single failure of ANY KIND...

NO Fluff & Buff - NOTHING but regular cleaning...

100% reliable and accurate...

WHAT MORE could you ask?

[gringolet]

I have had a kel-tec 32 a couple of years..shot little,
carried much...posted my problem with it the other day and thought
I had remedied it..nope...still busted. What happened is the thing
mysertiously will cock itself if the slide is pulled manually...
but when firing with an inserted magazine it will not recock itself and is a single shot only. This is not a good thing for a close defensive pistol and
is not a thing to be discovered until a shooting session. The pistol is boxed up for a return to kel-tec in florida and I will advise how that works out, but
I am probably going to have a hard time trusting a kel-tec in the future,
certainly this one.
I think a person is better off to do any of these options for a 32 or 380 pocket pistol.....
a. find one of the old colt mustangs or ponies still out and about
b. pay the mooney and buy the seecamp...my old seecamp, much older than this kel-tec has had not a stumble in its career...

[Brian Williams]

Looking in keen anticipation of the new PF-9 that is "coming". I would like either a PT-11 or one of these new PF-9s when they come. I have shot my daughters, and it is like shooting a autoloading revolver.

[LooterLefty]

They're intersting handguns. I don't own one.. But after reading inneumerale posts from KT entheusiests (hi guys) I'm reminded of a skit from Mad TV: Lowered ex-pec-ta-tions. Lower the bar for what qualifies as relaibale or durable, and yeah, all KTs get a 100%.

A couple slogans I propose for KT to consider, courtesy of their product's owners: Keltec: It's not a Glock!! or.. Keltec: Stuff Happens.

But they have a great warranty..

:fire: away

[Blue .45]

They're intersting handguns. I don't own one.. But

Nuff said.

[alamo]

They're intersting handguns. I don't own one.. But


Nuff said.


:)

[ugaarguy]

They're intersting handguns. I don't own one.. But after reading inneumerale posts from KT entheusiests (hi guys) I'm reminded of a skit from Mad TV: Lowered ex-pec-ta-tions. Lower the bar for what qualifies as relaibale or durable, and yeah, all KTs get a 100%.

A couple slogans I propose for KT to consider, courtesy of their product's owners: Keltec: It's not a Glock!! or.. Keltec: Stuff Happens.

But they have a great warranty..
LooterLefty, you don't own a Kel-Tec by your own asmission. What experience with them have you? Please quantify your assertation that Kel-Tec owners "lower the bar" in terms of their qualifications for reliability or durability. As you can see from my previous posts in this thread I'm a Kel-Tec owner. I can assure that I have not lowered my standards for firearms. If anything they have gotten higher as my experience has increased. For example I've recently purchased both a S&W K-22 Target Masterpiece and a Browning Hi-Power. Lowered standards huh? :scrutiny: Back up your cheap shots on Kel-Tec, and while you're at take a look at the poll I started here, linked below;
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=218146

[MCgunner]

Looking in keen anticipation of the new PF-9 that is "coming". I would like either a PT-11 or one of these new PF-9s when they come. I have shot my daughters, and it is like shooting a autoloading revolver.

Exactly what endears me to my P11, like a little concealed hammer snubby revolver that is square, small, light, shoots a powerful round (more powerful than any .38 special), and holds eleven rounds instead of five. What's not to like?:D No lowered bars here, 10,000+ rounds 9 years and counting, 100 percent so far and no fluffs or trips back to the factory.

If I didn't own one, maybe the KT flamers could convince me. :rolleyes:

[revjross]

I have had a 3AT for about 2 years. I did have some FTF problems with it especially after shooting a few rounds through it and it getting a little dirty. I sent it in to Kel Tec. They had it back to me in a week and never a problem since. -------- The point, even if you had an issue, they have very good customer service!!

[jon_in_wv]

It seems like people experiences are hit or miss. From what I hear thier newr ones are better than past ones. I have a newer model and with UMC 115gr JHP its been really reliable.

[LooterLefty]

ugaarguy: What can I say? Different strokes for different folks.. I'm glad you like yours.

I see range reports on KTOG where someone grades their experience a 'C-' and the mod has to come along and say "Oh that's a B+ range report for this pistol.' WHat would you call that?

I'm not interested in what other guns you own, that's non-sequiter to this discussion of keltecs.

[pocketgun]

I see range reports on KTOG where someone grades their experience a 'C-' and the mod has to come along and say "Oh that's a B+ range report for this pistol.' WHat would you call that?

You have a link to that? Otherwise "what I would call it" is fiction.

I think Soybomb made the point best: whatever you own, you must ensure it is reliable before you carry it. I have noticed a lot more patience given toward $1000 pistols with issues than with those who only paid $225. Kel-Tec makes a lot of pistols and some occasionally need some work. I have seen the same thing with Kahrs, Kimbers, Sigs, even Glocks.

The difference with a Kel-Tec is that the factory is extremely easy going with regard to allowing owners to do some work on their pistols without voiding the warranty. If you don't want to try the do-it-yourself method (polishing a ramp, replacing a part that they send you for free) you can just send it in for some of the best/quickest customer service available. Chances are excellent that a NIB pistol will run well with nothing more than a cleaning, lube, and trying out various types of ammo.

Even if you get one that needs some work it will be worth it eventually. Try and find a used one and you will see what I mean (they are hard to find and nearly as much as new ones). Show me a sub-9 ounce pocket pistol that is 0.77" or thinner. It is going to say "Kel-Tec" on the side - there is nothing quite like it for front pocket carry at any price.

[ugaarguy]

I'm not interested in what other guns you own, that's non-sequiter to this discussion of keltecs
Normally I'd agree. Except that you said They're intersting handguns. I don't own one.. But after reading inneumerale posts from KT entheusiests (hi guys) I'm reminded of a skit from Mad TV: Lowered ex-pec-ta-tions. Lower the bar for what qualifies as relaibale or durable, and yeah, all KTs get a 100% Since you're accusing Kel-Tec owners having lowered expectations I provided examples of a couple of handguns I own to refute your baseless claim. I've provided a link to a poll that confirms that Kel-Tecs do work well, which also contains my comments on my Kel-Tec experience, as well as those of others. Again, relay your experience with Kel-Tec products and, as Pocketgun has also asked you to do, provide a link to back up this claim; I see range reports on KTOG where someone grades their experience a 'C-' and the mod has to come along and say "Oh that's a B+ range report for this pistol.' WHat would you call that? For what it's worth, I again agree with Pocketgun, and I call it fiction until a link is cited. Please don't take this as being harsh, I'm just asking you to put some substance behind your claims.

[jon_in_wv]

I never thought I'd buy a Keltec but I saw one in the shop and decided to take the plunge. I'm really glad I did. At first I had some trouble shooting it well because of the DAO trigger as I had been shooting my Hi-Power quite a bit before that. As I got better with the trigger I realized the gun is really quite accurate. The sights are a little rudimentary but I'm going to upgrade the rear sight and I think I'm going to keep it as my carry gun. Ten rounds of 9mm DPX in a really small and light package is not a bad thing. In the summer I carry my snub nosed 38 in my front pocket but when I wear looser shorts I carry my KT and with 10 rounds it is still lighter than my 38. I give the nod to my KT over the snub nose for combat style shooting also. It is much easier to point shoot a semiauto for me.

PS My personal P-11 doesn't care too much for +P ammo but with standard pressure ammo I've never had any problems at all. I shot some 124 +p+ Hydrashoks and the slide would lock back prematurely but I was also using a different grip than usual so I'm not even sure if it was the ammo or me that caused that. My guns also really new so I'll see if it grows to like the +p stuff as it breaks in.

[LooterLefty]

What's up, pocketgun? I see a few users rom the KT boards here.

Look a page or two back on the 'OG, 3AT section. I'm not posting the link.

And don't call me a liar..

[MCgunner]

I cannot see why NOT buy a KT even if you're a little concerned with it. I mean, I've seen P11s around here regularly for $200-$230. That's low enough even if you don't like it, or if it was flawed and even if KT couldn't fix it (they'll send you a new one if the can't), you could just sell it at a gun show and buy something else. Might cost a few bucks, but I've lost money on guns I didn't like before. Now, if I bought a $2500 custom 1911 and it was a POS (I've heard of this happening), I'd be a little put out.:cuss:

But, my Kel Tec has been fantastic. It's so small and offers so much in concealable fire power I just had to get one. It also turned out to be surprisingly accurate and I've carried it constantly for 9 years. It's more compact than a PPK, yet fires +P 9mm, 11 of 'em, 13 if I'd buy the new magazines. That's just hard to beat in a pocket gun, frankly.

I've been considering whether the PF9 would be any improvement and dimensionally, I don't think so. I'm sure it's a nice gun, but I really like the P11. I might get a P3AT in the future, though, affordable and MAN that thing is just so tiny! If you can't conceal a P3AT, you're naked. If you're well enough endowed, even THAT don't matter!

BTW, I post occasionally on the KT board as CCWBiker.

[Cueball]

Well I DO have a newer P3AT (less than 1yr old) and I started out with a very frustrating time with it. I couldn't get the gun to feed any type of ammo at all. It jammed with every clip I tried to shoot with it. I went to the Kel-Tec board to try to get some help and got flamed for saying there was something wrong with my gun... quite an unfriendly bunch and very defensive about the subject. (I know I'll probably get flamed for the previous sentence, but so be it, it's the truth)
Now, as far as my gun goes. I did finally find out some things to try and after I polished my feed ramp to a mirror finish, and a few other tweaks. My gun operates pretty well. It's still not 100%, but it's much improved.

Would I buy another, probably not, but I have kept the one I did buy so far.

[MCgunner]

Well I DO have a newer P3AT (less than 1yr old) and I started out with a very frustrating time with it. I couldn't get the gun to feed any type of ammo at all. It jammed with every clip I tried to shoot with it. I went to the Kel-Tec board to try to get some help and got flamed for saying there was something wrong with my gun... quite an unfriendly bunch and very defensive about the subject. (I know I'll probably get flamed for the previous sentence, but so be it, it's the truth)
Now, as far as my gun goes. I did finally find out some things to try and after I polished my feed ramp to a mirror finish, and a few other tweaks. My gun operates pretty well. It's still not 100%, but it's much improved.

Would I buy another, probably not, but I have kept the one I did buy so far.

I'd have sent it back to the factory, personally. I want my carry guns 100 percent, no exceptions.

[1 LT MPC]

I have a p-11 that wont keep the assembly pin in after shooting. As luck would have it, I have noticed the failure before firing another round. Kel-Tec sent me another pin--but it was the wrong one. I'm now waiting for the correct pin and losing faith in the gun. Lately, I've been carring my Cobra and I think I'll just stick with it.:banghead

I'm to the point now that if it doesn't say Colt, Glock, Smith or Ruger, I don't own it.

[TC-TX]

Lefty - please do us all a favor...

1) Do NOT criticize nor critique something you have No First-Hand Knowledge of... It makes ones opinion completely invalid and therefore useless. It also places all of your future posts in a class of Questionable Validity.

2) use spell check.

[jon_in_wv]

I think the PF-9, besides being thinner, will have improved sights, and new trigger design similar to the smaller guns, and a firing pin block. Supposedly it will have a better and lighter trigger and the single stack magazine should solve the mag rattles and most of the feeding issues. Overall it looks to be pretty sweet.

[LooterLefty]

I went to the Kel-Tec board to try to get some help and got flamed for saying there was something wrong with my gun... quite an unfriendly bunch and very defensive about the subject.
I think this is a not uncommon experience from what I've seen lurking on those KT boards. In fact, one of the mods was so kind as to post on this thread with his helpful advice.. Thanks TexCajun. :)

[jon_in_wv]

post removed.

[kokapelli]

John_in_WV, because I am a KelTec owner, I watch the KTOG groups and have found them to be generally very tolerant and helpful.

What could you have posted that got you flamed in both groups?

[Avizpls]

The price of the Kel-Tec is very, very affordable and that is very, very scary!!!

Its sad that the industry is to a point where consumers are falsely convinced that if a gun isnt top-dollar, it is inadequate.

Buy the Kel Tec. You will not regret it. I have three (P3AT, P11, SU16A) and I dont regret anything at all.

[pocketgun]

What's up, pocketgun? I see a few users rom the KT boards here.

Look a page or two back on the 'OG, 3AT section. I'm not posting the link.

And don't call me a liar..

I don't frequent KTOG anymore. I didn't call you a liar LL, nor am I calling you one now. I have spent enough time on the forums to understand that it is very easy to misconstrue what is written there, particularly if it was meant humorously. Without the link to read, all we can do is guess. I am not going to run it down for you, because it certainly doesn't reflect how I feel about the subject anyway.

I can tell you that I have the same expectations of my Kel-Tecs as I do my other pocket pistols. They need to go bang every time, assuming they are kept clean and properly lubed. They are not combat pistols, and won't be reliable if dirty, filled with mud or sand, or fired with a flexible wrist. To make such a small/light pistol, trade-offs must be made. But provided you take the extra care needed with them, a pocket pistol can be expected to work properly in a self-defense situation. When I shoot my P-3AT at the range, I stop every 50 rounds and strip it, then wipe down the chamber/ramp/cam area of the barrel and the tops of the magazines. I then relube the barrel and reassemble. Alternately, I can use some of the "lead free" ammo types and shoot as much as 150 rounds without it getting dirty. For me it is just knowing what the limits are, and keeping within them. My P-3AT has nearly 1000 rounds downrange without a failure by sticking with this method. My P-11 and P-40 have never had a failure, and don't need to be cleaned as often as the P-3AT.

Yes, I got banned from BOTH Keltec websites because I disagreed with one of the administrators. They weren't nice at all. NO loss. I have found the crowd here to be much more receptive and informed.

If you were banned from the KTrange it was under a different username. Bannings usually are done with a bit of fanfare, and I don't recall any that could have been you. You probably missed one of the rules and had your account suspended. If that is the case, reactivation is no big deal; send me a PM if you are interested.

I did see you on my last visit to KTOG - it looked like you deleted your own account to me.

[P. Plainsman]

The P3AT is reviewed in the current American Rifleman. They suffered repeated FTEs with Winchester FMJ; hotter ammo worked fine.

I have only a bit of first-hand experience with a pocket Kel-Tec (couldn't hit jack), but the gun's reviewers certainly have such experience. All I know is that it's been a while since I've read a formal review of the Kel-Tec that didn't mention jams at some point. Last one I recall reading before Rifleman's review was George Hill in Concealed Carry magazine. Tons of jams, total unreliability. In a postscript, Hill noted that he sent his gun back to K-T and said it ran 100% after they worked on it. He is very happy with the gun now, but the net effect of his review and the postscript, on this reader, at least, was not positive.

If you can conceal a S&W 642 easily, personally, I'd stick with the revolver. I have trigger time on at least three different J-frame snubbies and have never experienced the slightest problem with function. It's a tested, thoroughly reliable design, and loaded with proper ammo, like the 158 grain +P lead hollowpoints, it is much more gun than the Kel-Tec.

But then, the P3AT is a truly miniature design meant to push the envelope. It will conceal in circumstances when even a J-frame won't. I think the P3AT's real competition is something like an NAA mini-revolver in .22 Magnum.

PS: I do appreciate K-T the company. They are one of the few American gun makers that is trying to design truly innovative self-defense firearms, and I give them credit for that. Their PLR-16 pistol is perhaps the most intriguing new gun of the last couple of years.

[jon_in_wv]

post retracted.

[jon_in_wv]

Post retracted.

[ugaarguy]

What's up, pocketgun? I see a few users rom the KT boards here.

Look a page or two back on the 'OG, 3AT section. I'm not posting the link.

And don't call me a liar..

LL, here's how it works. You made the claim, you back it up. It's your job to cite your sources, not our job to look them up for you. If you were to write a college paper and quote something you'd be expected to cite it. If your citation was "it's in this book, you'll have to find it yourself" your professor would tell you to either a) cite it properly with not just the book title, but the edition, author, copywrite date, publisher, page & paragraph that the source came from, and any other pertinent info, or b) any arguements that use that quote as their premise will be considered invalid since the source can't verified. Now this ain't English 1101, but the same principles apply. Properly cite the source that is the premise of your arguement, by using a link or links to it in this case, or we will continue to view your arguement as invalid.

Resqbubba, welcome to THR, and hopefully you're enjoying watching our little debate. :evil: I hope your questions on Kel-Tecs have been sufficiently answered. If they haven't please jump back in and ask more questions. We'll answer them as best we can.

[LooterLefty]

this aint a college paper..

[ugaarguy]

guess what?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

this aint a college paper..

Guess what? I said Now this ain't English 1101, but the same principles apply. Properly cite the source that is the premise of your arguement, by using a link or links to it in this case, or we will continue to view your arguement as invalid.
You're right, THR isn't about college english class. THR is a place of principles. The principle is citing your sources or backing up your argument with personal experience. That applies here, in a college paper, and many other places. So back up your claims. I tried to be civil, but that hasn't worked. So I'll put it terms you might better understand: Put up or shut up.

[erich w]

they are very reliable and I must say for the price are more then worth it, my only complete is that they aren't exactly the most acurate but for a compact/subcompact you can't expect alot, the price more then makes up for though.

[pocketgun]

I think this is a not uncommon experience from what I've seen lurking on those KT boards. In fact, one of the mods was so kind as to post on this thread with his helpful advice.. Thanks TexCajun.

OBTW, TC-TX is not the same person as TxCajun (moderator at KTOG).

edited to add: profile link - TxCajun (http://www.thehighroad.org/member.php?u=16871)

[Byron Quick]

I wrote a review for SWAT on the P3AT not long after it first came out. The P3AT I used for that article was purchased by me and is still my daily BUG.

I fired several hundred rounds of various ammunition for the article. The pistol had no malfunctions of any kind.

It has not been fluffed, buffed, or modified in any manner. Bone stock. Kel Tec did not know that the pistol would be used in a magazine article. The dealer-Joe Sheehan at the Gun Cabinet in Augusta, Georgia-did not know this either.

I carry it in an Andrews Leather pocket holster in my right front pocket. The pistol collects pocket lint. To date, it functions just fine with the pocket lint buildup. Firing a magazine will clear out the pocket lint just fine.

The next malfunction will be the first malfunction. Accuracy is acceptable for the role of the pistol...a BUG.

For those who care to look it up...the article is in the April, 2004 issue of SWAT.

[JShirley]

Also- my P-32 was considerably more reliable than Byron's NAA. Out of the box.

Byron ended up doing a fluff & buff- mostly feed ramp polishing- in an attempt to make his NAA as reliable as the P-32!

Yes, I've had problems with KTs before. I had some failure-to-feeds with my Sub-9 after about 180 rounds of dirty Russian ammo, and I had some ftfs with my P-40 while firing 145-grain ammo. I also had some ftes with my P-32 after it had about 60 rounds through it (by 200 rounds, I no longer experienced any malfs, even when dirty).

I have also had malfs with Glocks (3 models), Taurus, Kahrs, Brownings, Colts and even a S&W K-frame! (That's just what I remember. I'm sure there are more.)

As with any firearm, treat it decently, fire it extensively with the ammo you'll use for defense, and be happy.

---
Aside from that, administrative actions on another gun discussion board are really not appropriate for discussion here. Leave it there, or take it to PM or email.

John

[hso]

:fire: away

LL,

I don't think anyone is flaming you in spite of your invitation. ;)

What they are saying is if you don't have any first hand experience, or even direct experience that a friend/colleague had, then it's gossip and not fact and shouldn't be presented as such. If you are going to repeat what someone else has said/posted it should be attributed and referenced so others can read the whole cloth of the material. To not do this diminishes your credibility.

All,

My first hand experience is that my old P11 and P3ATs (got 2) work 100% with the exception of one P3AT not liking to feed CorBons. The other eats everything and the P11 isn't a picky eater at all.

I don't worry about the sights since I treat them as close up reactive defence handguns and point shoot them. I do find the sights on the P11 to be fine and my P11 has impressive accuracy.

I've got probably a 1,000+ rounds through my P11 without a problem. The P3ATs have ~500 rounsds through them.

[jon_in_wv]

My apologies. I wasn't trying to start a negative discussion about the other boards and I shouldn't have made that comment. I've retracted them.


Most of the info your going to read about the KTs is going to be anecdotal. Someone who is unhappy with something is more likely to post things about it than people who don't have any problems. I'll bet the majority of people are satisfied with thiers or they wouldn't be selling so many. If you get one and do have problems or want to make changes, the KT boards are a really good source for that info.

[LooterLefty]

Haha, some of you guys take yourselves SOOO seriously..
[edit: and aparrently some of you allow yourselves to be intimidated.]

I'm came out and said I don't own a KT. BUt I looked into buying one. What I read and how I was initially treated on the KT USER BOARDS disuaded me. Not hearsay or gossip from bubba down a the local shop. Actual reports from owners.

And heres your link:

htttp://www.ktog.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=104;action=display;num=1155938569

Lo- werd-ex-pect-tations..

Now, I put up. Do you promise to shut up?

[kokapelli]

Haha, some of you guys take yourselves SOOO seriously..

I'm came out and said I didn't own a KT, I looked into buying one. But what I read and how I was initially treated on the KT USER BOARDS disuaded me. Not hearsay from bubba down a the local shop. Actual reports from owners.

And heres your link:

htttp://www.ktog.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=104;action=display;num=1155938569

Lo- werd-ex-pect-tations..

Now, do you promise to shut up?

Well, since the link you supplied is a dead link,

maybe we ought not take you seriously.

Sometimes we can get useful information from OWNERS of pistols, but when someone knocks a pistol and does not even own one, I don't take them seriously!

[ugaarguy]

Looter Lefty, welcome to THR. Thanks for posting the link, wasn't so hard now was it? I didn't really see a problem with that thread you linked. I don't think TxCajun was trying to tell the guy to lower his expectations, I think he was explaining different sets of realistic expectations for different weapons. A Glock and a Kel-Tec are two very different guns. A Glock is service/combat pistol that is designed to shoot high volume with minimal maintenance in a sustained combat/law enforcement environment. A Kel-Tec is back-up/deep concealment gun designed for low volume right now get me of a jam until I can get to a larger pistol or a long gun. Different expectations for different roles, not lower. You may view it differently, and you're entitled to. If you do, we can peacefully disagree. Like others have said we just wanted you to provide a link to what you were talkin about. You did, and I thank you. I'll let others read it and post their thoughts.

[ugaarguy]

Well, since the link you supplied is a dead link,
Kokapelli, try this http://www.ktog.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=104;action=display;num=1155938569 it worked for me.

Edited to fix link

[pocketgun]

REMOVED and sent to LooterLefty via PM.

-PG

[hso]

Guys,

resqbubba asked a reasonable question and somehow the thread has drifted into something else.

Let's get back on target.


Summary -

Many of us have KT P11s or P3ATs that perform flawlessly. Some have had KT guns that didn't, but KT made them good the first pass back to them. A very few have had guns that didn't perform properly that they either got rid of before sending back to KT or, very rarely, after a trip to KT and they still didn't work.

Over all the KT P11 and P3ATs work well (go bang every time). Sometimes you get a lemon, but not often. When you do, send it back and you get a proper functioning gun back.

Does that do it for everyone?

[Juna]

Quick question... I just thought of this... When you send your gun back to Kel-Tec, do you then have to have it shipped back to an FFL (and pay an FFL transfer fee again)? Also, do you have to pay an FFL transfer fee to ship it TO Kel-Tec?

[Stephen A. Camp]

I am happy to see that it appears this thread is back on target.

Let's none of us get on the low road again.

Thank you.

[kokapelli]

Juna, I have sent pistols to Kahr and Smith & Wesson for repair and after being repaired, they both were sent directly back to me.

By the way, both the Kahr and the S&W were brand new and both had problems.

I also purchased a new Taurus PT111 recently that was defective.

It happens!

[pocketgun]

Apologies for drifting - I have removed my previous post. ;)

[Juna]

Juna, I have sent pistols to Kahr and Smith & Wesson for repair and after being repaired, they both were sent directly back to me.


Wow, that's good to know. I wasn't sure if that would be legal. I guess maybe it is b/c you already are the legal registered owner of the gun? Or does it vary by state?

[kokapelli]

Juna, the shipping laws are federal laws, because they cover shipping firearms interstate.

Here is a link to the KelTec group that covers shipping handguns_____

http://www.1bad69.com/keltec/shipping.htm

[albanian]

I had a P-32 that remained unreliable after 3 returns to the factory. It broke after the 3rd time I got it back and I was fed up. I traded it in on a Beretta 21-A in .22lr and it has been much more reliable and dependable.

I really wanted to like the P-32 but they are made so poorly that I think trusting your life to them is just stupid. I think Kel-Tec owners are often the same people that buy those cheap tools from China. They look like Craftsman tools but cost about half the price. They often break or bend or just work poorly. When they get something that works, they are happy, when they don't, they have the excuse that it was cheap.

I bought my P-32 because it was the only thing that small at the time. I have gone to my 642 and that is always reliable. I wish Kel-Tec owners good luck but I tell people asking advice about them the truth. They are garbage but they might work if you are lucky. The chips are down and your life is at stake, I like to gamble and try to save a few bucks and get a Kel-Tec. If I get shot because my gun jammed, at least I have the excuse that it was cheap and it has a good warrenty. After I get out of the hospital, maybe I will send it in for repairs.:barf:

[BsChoy]

Picked my 1st 3at up today ran about 65 rounds through it with one hangup...I believed it was a rare limp wrist I caused that made the failure to eject occur...seems like a keeper.

[LooterLefty]

I had a P-32 that remained unreliable after 3 returns to the factory. It broke after the 3rd time I got it back and I was fed up. I traded it in on a Beretta 21-A in .22lr and it has been much more reliable and dependable.
Albanian: From reading your post, it seems your thoughts and tastes echo my own. And I went with the 21A for my pocket gun as well.

[Soybomb]

I wish Kel-Tec owners good luck but I tell people asking advice about them the truth. They are garbage but they might work if you are lucky.
Interestingly though a recent poll http://www.thehighroad.org/poll.php?do=showresults&pollid=2333 shows pretty different results. Out of 37 voters only 1 (only 2.7% even in such a very limited sample) reported that his kel-tec could not be made reliable. Only 5.4% of those responding to the poll sent theirs back to the factory. Is the initial flaw rate higher than I'd like to see? Yes, although that seems to be worked out from the more recent guns. It sounds like the odds were very much in your favor that you'd have wound up with a reliable gun even if it wasn't reliable initially. I bet leadcouncil's p3at was from late last year or early this year too.

Perhaps I'm biased, both my s&w 642 and my p3at were defective out of the box. I fixed the keltec at home with a new extractor, the S&W had to be returned for a new frame. Its a shame either had problems but both manufacturers treated me well and as long as they're reliable after repair I won't hold their initial problems against them if they can go through a few hundred problem free rounds.

[Blue .45]

I wish Kel-Tec owners good luck but I tell people asking advice about them the truth.

Okay, so the people who have experienced no problems with their Kel Tecs are either lucky or they're just not being truthful about there positive experience with the guns. Is that it?

[pocketgun]

I really wanted to like the P-32 but they are made so poorly that I think trusting your life to them is just stupid. I think Kel-Tec owners are often the same people that buy those cheap tools from China. They look like Craftsman tools but cost about half the price. They often break or bend or just work poorly. When they get something that works, they are happy, when they don't, they have the excuse that it was cheap.

Just flame bait. :neener:

[Byron Quick]

Sorry, albanian, but I'm not trying to save a few bucks with the Kel Tecs. I own much more expensive firearms, have no dependents, and make pretty good money.

I bought more expensive BUG's FIRST and decided that they didn't cut the mustard. My Kel Tecs have never been fluffed and buffed, never been returned to the factory, and never had a malfunction of any description.

After several weeks of pocket carry, my P3AT fills up with pocket lint. I blow the lint out of the gun by firing a full magazine rapid fire at the range.

But then, maybe I'm just lucky for 1911's work for me right out of the box. Production models not top end Wilsons, Baers, or other semi-custom models.

I can conceal a Government Model 1911 with no problems and do so. My P3AT is a dedicated BUG. It's a rare day that it's my primary.

Now I do have a pistol that's acting a bit hinky. A Glock 20.

I've rifles that cost close to 3K. An Uzi full auto. I assure you, my friend, the P3AT was not purchased in order to save a few bucks. It is not retained in order to avoid purchasing another pistol. I'll be purchasing another if I'm breathing.

You may not like the brand. You may not trust the brand. That is your business. However, your opinion of the reasons people purchase and remain in possession of Kel Tec's has absolutely nothing to do with my purchase or my continued possession. Nor will that opinion have anything to do with my future purchase or ownership.

You won't find me plinking with the pistol. I'll use my Browning Buckmark for plinking. You won't find me carrying it as a primary carry pistol. I'll carry a 1911 in that role or a S&W Model 57. You will find me carrying it in the role for which it was designed...a back up gun.

[kokapelli]

I really wanted to like the P-32 but they are made so poorly that I think trusting your life to them is just stupid.



Some people just can't seem to handle the idea that an inexpensive gun works :banghead:

[albanian]

"Some people just can't seem to handle the idea that an inexpensive gun works "

I bought the P-32 because I wanted it to work. I had high hopes that this little pistol would be my next carry gun. I got the pocket clip and I was all set to really enjoy carrying this slim and light pistol. I would much rather that it had worked than it didn't.

The reliability was so poor that I had to send it back to KT for repairs. I did the F&B but that didn't cure the problem compleatly. KT replaced the top half the first trip. I got it back and it worked for about 150rds until it started to jam. I sent it back again but this time, it didn't work any better when I got it back. I was getting anywhere from a jam every other round to every 3-4rds. I sent it back, and they replaced some parts and it worked for a while. Then the trigger axis broke and I gave up. After looking at the part that broke, it was clear that it was stamp sheet metal. A critical part being made with poor quality metal is what I find cheap about this gun. With the trigger axis broken, the gun would not even fire one shot.

I call them like I see them. I think Kel-Tecs are junk. I also think Kahr's poly line of pistol are junk. I am one of the biggest Kahr fans out there but only of the all steel line. I have nothing against plastic if it works. I am not one of those that bash Glock because they are not a 1911 and made out of steel. Glocks tend to work so they are find for what they are supposed to do. Kel-Tecs and Kahr plastic pistols are a sign of our lowered expectations. We accept cheap junk when we should given quality. Kel-Tecs are not that cheap BTW. $240-275 for a P-32 is not really "cheap". Jennings were cheap, they were like $50 so you expected some problems. I actually had better luck with my Jennings J-22 than with my P-32 and if I HAD to carry one for defense, I would carry my J-22 since it mostly worked.

I have no problem with a cheap gun that works at all. I love bargin guns that preform. I hate guns that are made cheaply and don't work no matter what the price. I really hate them when they are relatively expensive and still don't work. There is also a difference between a quality gun that has problems and a gun that is junk because of the way it is made. I think platic Kahrs as well as Kel-Tecs suffer from poor quality. I had a P-9 that was clearly not up to Kahr's standards. I didn't bother the send it back to Kahr because even if they made it reliable, it would still be a flawed design. They need to start over with the P-series before things get better.

[LooterLefty]

Why is it that KT owners always want to change the subject to what other guns they own? I'm not calling the owners cheap, but the cost-cutting methods that KT uses to produce their weapons result in a rough product. It seems they rely on the KT faithful as their guinea pigs.

[kokapelli]

albanian, this is JMO, but I think it's a mistake to judge a line of pistols on just one experience.:eek:

I purchased a P-3AT that I shot 3000 rounds through before I stopped counting and other than recoil spring replacement, it has been perfect. :)

I was so impressed with my first P-3AT that I purchased another one that is also perfect.:) :)

When the second generation P-3ATs came out I purchased one of those too and it is 100%.:) :) :)

3 good pistols trumps 1 bad one any day.:)

Yes, KelTec does use some stamped parts, just like Bersa does and they
work just fine in these low pressure pistols.

[ugaarguy]

Why is it that KT owners always want to change the subject to what other guns they own? I'm not calling the owners cheap,
Because Kel-Tec bashers call us cheap, or attack our personal standards or expectations of quality. Pointing out what other firearms we own, and explaining our expectations based on the different roles we expect those firearms to fill, is an easy way to refute such baseless claims.

[LooterLefty]

I just say the guns are cheap, not the owners. And by cheap I mean they cut-corners.

[ugaarguy]

Nope Looter you didn't call Kel-Tec owners cheap, someone else did. However, you did accuse Kel-Tec owners of having lower expectations, which is the second part of what I said.

[kokapelli]

I just say the guns are cheap, not the owners. And by cheap I mean they cut-corners.

I can't argue with that, but don't most gun manufacturers cut corners to increase their profit?

Why else do so many gun makers use MIM parts now and that includes expensive guns too.

[TC-TX]

I just say the guns are cheap, not the owners. And by cheap I mean they cut-corners.
Lefty - Having never OWNED ONE nor SHOT ONE, you are not qualified to make that determination.

While you and everyone else is entitled to an opinion, An opinion based on ignorance and mis-information is invalid and worthless. While it actually may BE your opinion, it serves no useful purpose - even for its holder.

May I suggest a constructive tactic for you Lefty?

Go Shoot One... Perhaps rent one and put a box downrange with one.

Spend some time learning a little bit about them... from REAL Owners.

While it may or may not change your views (either way is OK) it will begin to validate your opinion.

I Suggest this as a normal course, based on experience... I WAS THERE ONCE... I was a Glock HATER (a STAUNCH HATER) for no other reason than it did not fit my perception of a Great Gun... for whatever reason. I had never shot one nor owned one, but used all of the Glock-Hater fodder for my information source. I disliked it for no valid personal reason. I disliked all Glocks bases solely on the opinions of others...

One day I was called on my opinion. Then I was forced (sort of) to look at the Glock from a different perspective.

I took the time to learn and shoot the brand and became very enamored with it. Funny thing was, virtually nothing I had heard was true...

I now own two... the rest is history...

I think you owe it to yourself to become educated on something that you feel so strongly about. I am absolutely CERTAIN you owe it to everyone (here on THR and elsewhere) to spend some time formulating valid data points and experiences for your opinions BEFORE you spend so much time and energy trying to defame and denigrate anyones products.

[Stephen A. Camp]

Dead in the water. Not on THR by a mile.