[pinetree64]

Need your input. At the last show I planned to buy a Springfield Mil-Spec. They were $459. I have a Kimber Compact and want another, but fullsize 1911. I saw DW Pointmans for $479 with all the bells and whistles...am I missing something? I didn't buy either. I wanted to try a more historical version of the 1911, but the Pointman sort of mixed things up.

Another show in a week. Thanks for your input.

tjg

[jem375]

I have the Springfield 1911-A1 full size and the compact, but, recently bought a Dan Wesson Pointman Major with all the match parts on it and boy is that thing accurate.........it will shoot right along with all the Kimber match and Colt Gold Cups.......The Sprinfield's are great, and you really can't make a bad choice between the 2 that you mentioned..........I am looking right now at a Dan Wesson Pointman Minor with the non-adjustable sights as a possible carry gun, although the Springfield compact fills that part pretty good...............

[Tropical Z]

Id get the Dan Wesson.Springfield 1911 owners have a LOT more problems than theyre usually willing to admit.

[harrydog]

That's a bold statement. You obviously have no way of knowing that. In my opinion, you shouldn't make blanket statements like that because some people here may actually believe you!
:rolleyes:

[Tropical Z]

Check out the various "What gun has given you the most trouble" threads here,at TFL,gunboards and others that i frequent less often and you will quickly ascertain that Springfield 1911's always seem to be at least a third of the posts.Thats good enough for me-----unless were all a bunch of LIARS! The few people i know that own Springfield 1911's LOVE them but readily admit that they are not 100% reliable.
P.S.pinetree
On a 1911 i feel some "bells and whistles" are really nice.Lose a pint of blood shooting something like the stock POG Sistema i once had the misfotune of owning and youll quickly learn to appreciate those "bells and whistles".

[MoNsTeR]

If you want to have it dressed up by a smith, get the Springfield. If you just want to use it, get the Dan Wesson.

[harrydog]

Tropical Z -
I'm not following your logic at all. Previously you stated:

"Springfield 1911 owners have a LOT more problems than theyre usually willing to admit."

To justify that you say:

"Check out the various "What gun has given you the most trouble" threads here,at TFL,gunboards and others that i frequent less often and you will quickly ascertain that Springfield 1911's always seem to be at least a third of the posts."

So, because you read about quite a few Springfield owners who have mentioned problems with their guns, you're convinced that Springfield owners have a LOT more problems with their guns than they willing to admit?
That makes absolutely no sense. :confused:

Pinetree64 - Keep in mind that the Dan Wesson has a cast frame and the Springfield has a hammer forged frame, if that matters to you.

[jem375]

my 2 Springfields have not malfunctioned and I don't expect them to..........

[cratz2]

Stainless Target Loaded 45ACP - 0 failures
Stainless Target Loaded 9mm - maybe 2 failures other than a bad mag
Blued Loaded - 2 failures in the first 100 rounds
Lightly Loaded Parkerized - 0 failures
MilSpec 45ACP #1 - maybe 4 failures ever
MilSpec 45ACP #2 - 0 failures with me shooting
MilSpec 45ACP #3 - ??? Haven't shot it yet
MilSpec 38 Super - 0 failures

This is my personal experience with my personally owned guns. Take it for what it's worth... Not much in the scheme of things but certainly more than someone talking about other people's guns. ;) And the bad magazine that came with my second hand 9mm Springfield was replaced no questions asked in about 8 days.

More than one guy is having problems with his Dan Wesson as well. I own several Springfields and no Dan Wesson pistols (though my favorite revolver ever is a Dan Wesson 22). But I do plan on buying a Wesson Panther - the full size alloy frame gun. I've handled several Dan Wesson 1911s and was genuinely impressed by ever single one. Ver well fitted, decent triggers, pretty well finished. The one that I took apart (Patriot Expert Target?) looked pretty good inside too.

I've never paid over $385 for a 45ACP MilSpec and I think they are a very solid value at that price, esp the newest ones. But I think that if I didn't have any full-size 1911s, and the price difference was only $20, I'd probably get the Dan Wesson. I'd get it home and clean and lube it. Then I'd put 200 rounds through it and clean and lube it again and put another 200 rounds through it. And I woulnd't worry about failures for the first 500 rounds.

Good luck. Let us know what you decide. If you haven't stumbled across it already, you might want to check out www.1911forum.com They have a dedicated seperate Dan Wesson forum over there. A lot of the talk is about the 10mm Razorback and the higher end Patriot line but there should be plenty of talk about the PointMan as well. And please ignore Bren over there... he... has issues. :p

[Tropical Z]

Springfield and Glock owners are the most hesitant to admit problems because thay believe their gun couldnt possibly have any flaws.The mere fact that Springfields regularly come up in problem gun threads leads me to believe that even though most owners would never admit to it a sufficient number of them have had enough problems that the mystique of "springfield" doesnt mean anything to them anymore and theyre finally willing to be honest.Thats what im saying.I have no desire to own a Springfield 1911.

[jem375]

Tropical Z.......are you for real??? every manufacturer has problems and most of the time it is the gun owners fault.....limp wristing, cheap mags, failure to clean properly,...go to any website and there are problems with every gun made.........wake up and smell the damn roses, and for once write without a bunch of B.S.......some of the time it is the manufacturers fault and if you complain, they will fix it......it's like anything else in the world, nothing is perfect.........my Springfields will be my carry guns, and I would not carry them if they didn't work as they should...

[harrydog]

"Springfield and Glock owners are the most hesitant to admit problems because thay believe their gun couldnt possibly have any flaws."

I think Baer owners take the prize for this trait.
At any rate, I think you just don't like Springfield and are trying to rationalize it.

[edit] pinetree64 - I forgot to mention that the Dan Wesson has a one year warranty. The Springfield has a lifetime warranty.

[cratz2]

The warranty is something to consider... also might affect resale value. I've found out that for folks that do a fair bit of shooting, most serious issues will be noted within a couple months so, while I'd rather have a lifetime warranty, a year warranty is usually sufficient. Also, with as often as Dan Wesson changes management and ownership, it probably doesn't matter how long the warranty is as the company may not be around quite forever. I wonder if Dan Wesson will step up like Kimber seems to do in that while the factory warranty stops at 1 year, they seem to make good any problems their guns have after that period. I can see the desire of a company to have a short warranty period so that they know after a given length of time, they know they don't have to honor it, but if all is going well, they will honor it. On the other hand, I wonder how many lifetime warranty issuing companies have gone out of business due to warranty claims.

An TZ, how exactly do you know that Glock and Springfield owners are the most hesitant to admit problems? I know plenty of Colt guys that won't admit they've had issues or whatever issues they have had, is just part of owning a Colt 1911... at least there for a while. I'd be tempted to agree with Harry and say that Les Baer guys are the most reluctant to admit out loud that they've had to send a gun in three times to get it to cycle 99% with ball ammo. But they still would and did buy another Baer.

[GLOCKT]

3 Glocks,roughly 25k rounds thru 3.
Sure theres a handful of models out there with recalls,rail failures on large frames and improperly cut ejectors.
Glock stands behind their products as any manufacture should.
Lemons are produced in every aspect of life.Humans even produce defects.
Glocks are more common because you either hear of a friend,read a thread or have been told a story about them.
Have you ever considered how many more Glocks have been sold in such short time span they have been available?
Let's see almost every major Police force,1/3 of the worlds military,and then the civilian market owns them.
20 years on the market and I believe they've set records in sales and reliabilty so if you ever wonder why you hear more about Glocks and their problems.Take a good look at your 1911's.Produced way back when and they still havent perfected them.

[Minute_Of_Torso]

Springfield Mil-Spec owner here.

2000 rounds and counting - 100% reliable.

Of course I may be a LIAR and unwilling to admit the obvious junkiness of my gun.

Oh, wait, 2000 rounds and counting - 100% reliable.

I like a good all-American company like Glock or SIG or Beretta. Oh, wait . . .

[Tropical Z]

I dont like Springfield!
I dont like the fact that they stand behind the flag like they're supporters of the American way all the while IMPORTING their handguns in whole or part from other countries.They always brag about how they're "The Oldest Name In American Firearms" when they have nothing other than name in common with the original Springfield Armory.I think they're a bunch of deceitful individuals.

[PCRCCW]

You know what?....every maker makes occasional bad guns and everyone has their favorites and Not so favorites....:D

It is true that some makes of guns tend to have more "brand whores" than others....I wont go there...we all know who you are :rolleyes:

No gun/maker is really what they claim to be anymore....as far as importing parts and not being "American" as it were...not a new arguement by any means.

Harley Davidson, the paramount "American or die" purchase, has been using imported parts since the dawn of time. Imported carbs, brake parts, forks ....etc. Blasphemy....:D :cuss:

Between the SA and Dan Wesson....Id jump on the Wesson...sure the SA is loaded with nights and forged frame etc, but I like the Wessons ALOT. I believe they offer a very good product for the money spent...even alot more.

And just out of curiosity....who has ever had a Cast frame perform worse than a Forged one? What if the Cast frame is outstanding in its metallurgy and the Forged one sucks?
Which is better then........

:evil:

[Boats]

As a current and former Beretta owner, former Walther owner, former HK owner, former SIG owner, current Colt owner, and current Springfield owner, I must be a real idiot for buying a foreign made rebadged POS 1911, right?

Or a liar in that my three Springers haven't given me any serious problems.:rolleyes: Everyone who does a half-miunute's worth of research knows that the frames and slides for most Springer 1911s are from Brazil and that the XD is from Croatia.

The 1911s are still mostly assembled and serviced by Americans in Illinois. I have about as much problem with this fact of life as I do owning American made Berettas still having the word "Italy" on the slide.

So Springfield Armory bought the name? What of it? They had to call themselves something, so why not SA if the name was available? Should we still call anything "Winchester" given the permutations that company has gone through? There is power in a name, especially if you work hard to live up to it and stand behind the intent of its adoption. No one would buy a Springer if all they were known for is garbage no one would cop to. Word of mouth and all that. . . .you want garbage in a 1911? Buy an Auto-Ordnance--everyone knows that.:banghead:

[Matthew_Q]

As another Springfield owner here, I'm going to put in my 'data' as far as reported or unreported failures... I've reported all the failures I've seen with the three Springfield 1911s I've owned.

The first was a Stainless Loaded. (secondhand from a friend, he only had maybe 400 rounds through it, without failures, when he traded it to me) Had maybe 3 feed jams due to incorrect seating depth of semi-wadcutter handloads. NO OTHER FAILURES.

Second was a Stainless Loaded with target sights. (again, a trade from the same friend) This one would bind a bit when going into battery. Turns out it was a burr in the recoil spring plug that caused it to bind on the guide rod. Replaced, and it had NO ADDITIONAL FAILURES.

Now I'm onto a brand spanking new Milspec Parkerized, and have 250 rounds through it with NO FAILURES WHATSOEVER.


That's my history with Springfield. I trust mine hands down.

[harrydog]

Quote: "I dont like Springfield!
I dont like the fact that they stand behind the flag like they're supporters of the American way all the while IMPORTING their handguns in whole or part from other countries.They always brag about how they're "The Oldest Name In American Firearms" when they have nothing other than name in common with the original Springfield Armory.I think they're a bunch of deceitful individuals."



Ahhh! So now the truth comes out. Why didn't you just say that to begin with rather than making up garbage about Springfield owners having a LOT more problems with their guns than they're willing to admit. I think it is YOU who is being deceitful. :mad:

[harrydog]

Quote: "What if the Cast frame is outstanding in its metallurgy and the Forged one sucks?
Which is better then........"

Then I'd prefer the cast frame.
But since that's not the case, I prefer the forged frame.
Dan Wesson uses a cast frame in it's cheaper pistols because a cast frame is.....cheaper!
Springfield chooses to use a high quality forged frame for all of their 1911's, even the cheapest ones. I applaude them for that. Quite a few top notch pistolsmiths, including Richard Heinie, like to use Springfields for a base gun. They wouldn't put their reputation on the line by using a forged frame that "sucked".

[Ebbtide]

I dont like Springfield!

Well, that clears things up for us.

I've had an SA Loaded since 99'. Other than a few problems up front (that all worked themselves out) it has been flawless for over 1200 rounds.

Now, I was not going to tell anyone this because I did not want anyone to know I bought a POG, but now that I have been called on the carpet I do have a Glock that has been back to the factory nine times, has never fed a whole magazine without failure, and the finish fell off while sitting in the safe between shipments. Whoa, I feel much better having finally admitted that. :D

As to original queation, I would go with the springfield.

[45auto]

Hard to beat the Springfield mil-spec overall for value, particulary if you want a "historical" 1911.
Some are customized after the fact. If you want the "bells and whistles", which are mandatory for me, then you may want to check out Springfield's Loaded model. That's a better comparison to the Dan Wesson.
I've never seen a Wesson so I can't comment.

Good luck

[Tropical Z]

******** ** ** *****

[jem375]

TropicalZ....what's the matter, run out of BS....

[Tropical Z]

One boys BS is another universes truth!
I will no longer participate in threads where you or 3 other particularly obnoxious members spout your warped and consistently negative opinions about other members choices in firearms.Lifes to short to waste my words on people of little substance.:barf:

[Minute_Of_Torso]

This dumb hillbilly got some more warped opinion to spew . . .

I posted previously that it was 2000 rounds and counting - 100% reliable.

Well dem dere numbers just went to 2500 and counting - 100% reliable. What a piece of junk dem Springfields is.

*****************************************

On a more serious note:

Quote from cratz2:

Stainless Target Loaded 45ACP - 0 failures
Stainless Target Loaded 9mm - maybe 2 failures other than a bad mag
Blued Loaded - 2 failures in the first 100 rounds
Lightly Loaded Parkerized - 0 failures
MilSpec 45ACP #1 - maybe 4 failures ever
MilSpec 45ACP #2 - 0 failures with me shooting
MilSpec 45ACP #3 - ??? Haven't shot it yet
MilSpec 38 Super - 0 failures


DANG! I want to hang out with you!

[9x19]

Borrowed from the Dan Wesson room at 1911Forum.com

The front sight is loose…The rear sight hinge pin is coming out…Mpro7 seems to remove the finish from the underside of the grips and take the color out of the laser work…I sent #16 back to DW today because of my jamming problem…

I' sending mine back also….too many FTF...Front site loose, back site lose after session at range…had several "lite" strikes on primers with failure to ignite…with Corbon, Blazer ammo.

…the sights on 2 RZ's…appear to be slightly canted (crooked), as viewed from shooting position…the front sights on 2 Patriots were loosely installed…rear of the dovetail was struck with a punch (at the factory)…to tighten-up the fit…one RZ which has exhibited some light firing pin strikes…RZ grips appear to be either painted or dyed black. Yuck! …brown wood peeking out at the tops of the diamonds.

…new Patriot Expert…Problem is that 2 or 3 rounds per magazine fail to go into battery. Most of the time the thumb safety cannot be engaged.

Razorback #5 will not feed jack !*&@ …have tried 5 different brands they will not feed into the barrel…

…pretty disappointed with my Patriot Marksman…blueing is inconsistent…rear sight has never stayed in place through a round of shooting…extractor has begun spewing casings all over the place…ejector is peened on the rear part, causing a nice large gap between it and the slide.

I picked up my patriot…the front sight was so loose I was able to push it most of the way out with my thumb…

…A DW pointman major…having some feeding issues, the gun will eject the spent shell, and jam the next round half way in the chamber and half way out of the mag…used Federal fmj 230 gr, and cci blazer 230 gr both with the same results…gun will jam 4 times out of 50 shots…mags require a good smack to get them past the mag catch…last round is fired the slide does not seem to be locking back properly 2 out of 5 mags…when handeling…and after locking the slide back to inspect…I would drop the slide by way of depressing the slide stop…takeing the hammer to half cock 4 out of 10 times, <Spelling errors are replicated from original post>

I just bought a PTE-S yesterday….ejector didn't look right….I think it's broken…a brand new gun….haven't even fired the gun yet….it's 100% broken…jagged, and…no protrusion…really frustrated…How can a new, top of the line DW pistol be shipped like this? Doesn't Dan Wesson have quality control…?

The nickeled GS turned out be more yellow than I had first thought….the very tip of the hammer is very nicely impact nickeled now from repeated (every shot) contact with the beavertail…the brass was hitting the slide behind the ejection port…

…new Pointman Minor PM2-P…grip panel cracked…grip bushing comes out with srew…got 4 rounds through jam ,jam again -tried differnt ammo jam-jam-jam wont extract or feed properly!!!Did i get a lemon!

…the Rz…two glaring errors. (#1) With the pistol empty & hammer down (condition 0) The thumb safety can go half way to engaged & stay there…(#2) The hammer seems too long and is already making a pretty nasty mark in the dished out area on the beavertail.

With only 250 rounds of S&B 230gr FMJs downrange, I have these issues…Shoots three inches below POA at 21 yards…Rear sight set screw keeps wiggling loose… Barrel link pin falls right out…DW medallion on left side grip panel fell off…Front sight has worked loose

Pointman minor PM3…The mag it came with sent the first rnd directly into the frame. So did all other mags tried including CMC and Wilson…some of the brass bonks me on the head sometimes.

…new Patriot Expert…2nd to last round from each mag the trigger didn't return forward all of the way. I had to move it forward to be able to shoot the last shot….

When i recieved the weapon the front sight was lose…The 2-piece guide rod loosened up 2x…RZ shipped with no grip screws…


ALL current makers of 1911 have their problems... If you want perfection, buy a Glock! :D
{also borrowed from 1911Forum}:neener:

[duckfoot]

mil-spec springer bought three years ago, 1 barrel and roughly 13,000 rounds later, only one problem, one wore out barrel.
That was my fault.

but been bit a few times.







.02 taken with salt

[jem375]

9x19.........yeah, right, just ask the NY police department about Glocks..........like you said, every maker has problems including glocks..........also have seen many posts about glock malfunctions......

[jem375]

TropicalZ........gee, and what did you just do about Springfield??..

[Grayrider]

Pinetree64,

Tough decision there. I have had a couple SA Loadeds with no problems at all. They were not nearly as well finished as my Razorback, but not sure in comparison to a Pointman (will know soon however). DW will stand by it if you have problems and the gun is new. I would say the decision for me would be based on what you have versus what you want. If you don't have a 1911, will only buy one, and want it to be pretty well finished from the get-go, I would get the Pointman. If you have other 1911s and just want a mil-spec to have mil-spec, the SA is a great gun. Personally I like the bells and whistles. I don't want to have to drop $460 on the gun, then another few hundred in parts. DW gets me pretty much where I want to be out of the box. I doubt there is much difference in component quality as we are talking cast frame, forged slide, MIM parts on either gun (IIRC).

Either way you should be able to get past any minor issues that crop up. Both guns would have good resale to boot. Getting a 1911 is just a plain good idea anyway you look at it!

GR

[Correia]

My daily carry gun is a Springfield. I have access to many other guns, so I could obviously carry something else if I didn't believe in the Springfield.

My carry gun hates one brand of hollow point. Rim is too thin. Other than that, no problem. Solution? Don't use that ammo.

I have sent a gun back to Springfield. Their service was fast and dang near perfect. No complaints with their warranty.

I have not shot a Wesson.

Tropical, I suggest you chill out a little. You made a statement. Others debated your opinion. End of story. So everybody take a deep breath and move on with your life.

[harrydog]

Quote:
"Tropical, I suggest you chill out a little. You made a statement. Others debated your opinion. End of story."


You're being too polite. What he did was spout pure BS and he was confronted with it.

[duckfoot]

Tropical I can agree with one point about springfield firearms and that is they have made some bad ones. I also look at it this way. I am a HK owner and I didn't buy one for a very long time because of one story that has been floating aroud about firing pins breaking. Got one a year ago have never had a singel malfunction EVER! So why didn't I get one sooner.

BEACUSE

You can do a life time of good deeds but be remembered for one mistake.



.02 taken with salt

[noklue3]

9X19:

Your list of problem posts on the Dan Wesson forum of the 1911 Forum is misleading and unfair. You know as well as I that I could pick any model gun and find problems and list only the same. Why did you not post the great many positive post at the same site? I don't care for Glocks but that does mean that they are not any good.

Pinetree64:

I do not have a Pointman, but I do have a Dan Wesson Patriot Expert and it is one fine pistol and I would recommend any Dan Wesson after my experience with it. The Patriot has a Lifetime Warranty. You can get them for $650 - $750 if you would be interested.
I have looked at but not fired the Mil-Spec and while the Patriot is a higher end pistol, any comparison to it would be unfair. I have seen the Mil-Spec going for $399 here in Ohio at the larger gun shops though, so if you decide to get one, I would look some more at the pricing.

Good luck.

Art

[9x19]

Noklue,

I noted, at the bottom of my above post, that all 1911 makers have their share of problems (due mostly to cheap internal parts and poor QC).

Feel free to post the "positive" side if you want, we'll take a look. :neener:

BTW, admitting Glocks are not perfect may take me a bit longer... :D

[noklue3]

9X19:

I noted the final "all 1911 makers have problems" and of course you are right. My exception was that you only posted the negative. As again with ALL 1911 makers there are good points and they should be noted as well.

And as far as a perfect Glock...Well, time for me to be quiet.:p

All the best


Art