Question to the high power AR 15 shooters


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john l
May 9, 2003, 10:35 AM
Guys,
I am still kinda new to the AR15. So your advice will be valuable to me.
OK, When shooting high power, at what range do you set your sights? 100yds? 200yds? 300yds?
My question comes from the idea that if my AR is set at 300yds, and I am shooting a target at 100 yards, then I have to aim about 11 inches low to get on the target, and that doesn't seem so "precise".
I primarily shoot 3 gun matches and only a fraction of the ranges I would be shooting at is in the 200-300 yd range, and so I got thinking about what the high power shooters do, and see if I can get things worked out.
I am inclined to zero my ironsights at either 100 or 200 yards, and then go from there, finding out where I must aim to hit accurately25, 50, 100, and 200 yds( depending on where I zero) I just wonder if I am doing myself and injustice with the A2 sights being calibrated to "dial up" for longer distances, but then again, I don't think I will be shooting a lot of tgts at 450 yds. Kinda out of range with a 5.56mm anyway.
Please, after laughing at my ignorance, let me know what you think I should do.
much appreciated,
john l

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Steve Smith
May 9, 2003, 10:58 AM
450 yds. Kinda out of range with a 5.56mm anyway.

Wish I could say what I want here, but "BS!!!" will suffice.

I would never laugh at someone's ignorance. Besides, "ignorant" isn't an insult. I am ignorant of 3 gun practices.

Anyway, Kentucky windage (and elevation) is right out for Highpower. We use an exact sight picture and move our sights to account for distance an wind. No way to be accurate without doing that.

Since many of us rarely shoot at less than 200 yards, we set our guns up so that we have very little come-up for a 200 yard zero. Mine is 12 (1/4 minute) clicks up from Mechanical Zero for a 200 yard 6'oclock hold. I will drop that to about 10 clicks for sitting rapid and then come up 3 minutes for 300 yard rapid prone still with a 6 o'clock hold. 600 yard slow prone is 9 minutes up from that (actually 60 clicks up from MZ for me) and is (for me) still shot with a 6 o'clock hold. Different shooters use different holds, but we all move the sights. Wind dictates sight movement too, CONSTANTLY. Mark your elev and wind MZ's and always go back to them in between stages or if something goes whacky. That way you won't get lost.

cratz2
May 9, 2003, 11:27 AM
I don't even fancy myself to be able to offer anything over Steve Smith's advice other than to say that one of the most humbling shooting moments I can recall was shooting an AR-15 with a very well trained ex-Marine. About five years ago, I was shooting down at his friends place that has a very nice setup - from one point, you can have targets at a measured 7, 15, 25, 50, 55, 75, 100, 150, 200, 300 yards and on another range, anywhere out to 600 yards... this is quite unusual for southern Indiana. Anyway, I was shooting a Savage in 223 and another in 7mm-08 - both had scopes of higher magnification ranges. At the time, I would do well to keep 5 shots inside 2 inches at 100 yards. At the time, I thought I was pretty hot stuff so I started talking crap about iron sights and how he only had one scoped rifle. He was kinda lettin' it roll but I kept dishin' it out. He goes in his house and gets is fairly stock Colt AR15. Walks back out and places targets at 100, 200 and 300 yards. Comes back and lays down prone and shoots off 30 rounds just going back and forth between his targets, maybe between a half a second and a full second between shots. Just about every single shot was in between a 3" to 5" group on each target. Keep in mind, this is with iron sights out to 300 yards.

Needless to say, I no longer bash iron sight shooters and say what you want about military training... a well trained Marine with an AR-15/M16/M4 300 yards away is not someone you want to have a serious grudge against you. ;)

And on the subject of 450 yards being out of the 5.56 round's range...five words for you pal... I would bet on it! :p

cratz2
May 9, 2003, 11:29 AM
Oh... and just so you don't think we're being crappy with two posts that could be regarded as negative in a row, welcome and feel free to ask more questions. Just probably shouldn't knock the things you might not know a whole lot about until you know a whole lot about them. :D

Steve Smith
May 9, 2003, 11:36 AM
And on the subject of 450 yards being out of the 5.56 round's range...five words for you pal... I would bet on it!

Ok, Cratz, assuming you will also accept .223 and "range" means acceptable accuracy of, oh, 1.5 MOA (iron sights from prone?), I will take that bet. NAME THE PRICE. If you can pony up enough money I will come to your location, prove you wrong, and take your money happily.

Better yet, why don't you just tell me how much you're willing to bet, and I'll produce a pic of my score cards from Sunday's 600 yard match that I shot with an AR. Note, scorecards are with the Match Director right now so it will probably me Monday before I can get the pic...if you really want to give me some mioney.

cratz2
May 9, 2003, 03:08 PM
He he... funny thing Steve. How much a difference the letters "n't" can make when you're trying to convey an idea.

Obviously that sentence contradicts the rest of my entire post... I certainly meant to say, "I wouldn't bet on it".

Darn keyboard not knowing what I mean to say. :p

cratz2
May 9, 2003, 03:10 PM
...if you really want to give me some mioney.

I do feel one percent better knowing that you were in such a hurry to type your post that you typed 'mioney'. :neener:

Steve Smith
May 9, 2003, 03:17 PM
Dammit! I was hoping you weren't going to correct that and you'd put about $10K or $20K where your mouth was! :D

I WAS in a hurry! lol! I'll leave my post unedited because its so funny.

cratz2
May 9, 2003, 03:38 PM
No Steve, even though I've never met you, something tells me I shouldn't bet against you and that AR of yours. ;)

Steve Smith
May 9, 2003, 03:41 PM
I'm far from the best, but I drink beer with 'em like a pro!

TechBrute
May 9, 2003, 03:42 PM
I don't shoot those ranges with an AR, but I have a sub-3/4 MOA bolt gun that I use in varmit matches out to 635 yards. I don't want to get into the aspect of its effectiveness at those ranges, but it will definately go that far.

ShaiVong
May 9, 2003, 10:55 PM
Woo! Steve seems mighty frisky tonight! :neener:

john l
May 9, 2003, 11:00 PM
Hmmm,
I re-read what I said and it definitely comes across like I think that the 5.56 cannot be shot accurately at that range. However, what I meant was that -I, me, probably won't be shooting at that range, 450yds. AND, I wouldn't right now be accurate at it. I'm not afraid of it, I just haven't done it is all.
I think learning to shoot iron sights out to 600 yds would be fun, so I thank you for letting me know what is done at highpower matches.

john l

john l
May 9, 2003, 11:11 PM
By the way, are there any books out there on High power competition-techniques and so forth for the AR 15 that any of you could reccomend? Seems like I have too many questions to keep asking. Steve the moderator mentioned in his original reply that he has to make a 60 click adjustment to get to where he needs to be. I don't even know if my A2 sights will click 60 times, so perhaps there is some competition sights out there to be had, anyway, thanks for the help, and Cratz2, I wasn't "knocking anything" that is the trouble with words on a screen, you can't attach tone or attitude to them.
john l

cratz2
May 9, 2003, 11:54 PM
Oh... I didn't really think you were slighting the round or anything... just wanting to ensure you knew the rounds capability... at least on paper.

It translates to a lot of areas of rifle shooting... some folks - poor or failing eyesight aside - think that you need the highest magnification scopes available when some guys have been doing fine with 2.5x and 4x scopes for years and have probably racked up more heads of game that the guys with 6-18x and 6-24x. And I sort of have a thing for the 6.5x284 and 6.5-06 rounds while there are guys just tearing up paper good and proper with 6.5x55 and .308. I just think sometimes so folks, no you, but some folks get hung up on equipment much more than they should when they should be out shooting instead of typing on some forum.

I say with 2,000 something posts. :rolleyes:

GLOCKT
May 10, 2003, 12:06 AM
I shoot a 24" V-match Bushmaster in local matches at Camp Atterbury (500 yards) with flip up iron sights.
Front sight was changed from a post to an KNS hooded cross hairs sight.
The rear sight is a standard flat top rear sight with 1/2moa adjustments.The adjustment is 22 clicks moving from 100 yards to 500 yards.
1 in 9 twist rate 63 grain Swiss Mil spec.
Towards the end of summer,futher south in southern Indiana I'll try my hand shooting outwards to 1000 yards from the Bushmaster set-up.Granted I learn the art of hand loading 80 grain and slowing down the twist rate with a different set-up.
They shoot 1000 yard matches at Camp Perry in service rifle class,so 450's is a walk in the park with 5.56/.223.

Steve Smith
May 11, 2003, 05:17 PM
The full sized A2 (not the short shaft flat top A2) will go the same distance up as my 60 clicks. My A2s are 1/4 minute. Most stock ones are 1.2 and may only be 20-40 clicks depending on the quality (whether the company took care to space their detents exactly 1/2 MOA apart -right-) and where you're starting from as well.

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