Any American citizens of hispanic/latino background here?


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Keith Wheeler
August 29, 2006, 04:29 PM
If so, does the more violent rhetoric of some anti-immigrant folks give you cause for concern?

I would be interested in how the current political "crisis" surrounding border issues is affecting your life. Have you altered your lifestyle? Chosen perhaps to obtain a concealed carry permit when you didn't before?

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cassandrasdaddy
August 29, 2006, 04:32 PM
but apparently look latino. enough so that folks come up to me on the street and speak spanish to me. i had an ins guy get real nasty and then jump back when i got in his face.i'm waiting for some over aggresive minuteman member to press his luck.
it does give me a perspective on how latinos are treated.

Sawdust
August 29, 2006, 04:38 PM
Please identify these "anti-immigrant" folk of whom you speak.

I am aware of a growing anti-ILLEGAL immigrant movement, but not aware of any violent rhetoric regarding LEGAL immigrants.

So, again, exactly who are these people about which you are "speaking"? :scrutiny:

Sawdust

ForeignDude
August 29, 2006, 04:44 PM
Nah, the rhetoric doesn't scare me or cause me concern.

For the most part, it's simply frustration with the politicians. These folks have got as much of a right to spout off as anyone else -- it is America, after all...;)

As for the radical few who would want to take it beyond the rhetoric [and the ballot box]-- well -- that's why I'm a gun-owning Latino. :fire:

pax
August 29, 2006, 04:45 PM
Friend of mine married a into a third-generation Mexican immigrant family (eg, the great-grandpa moved here legally, years and years ago). My friend is blond and caucasian, but his kids have the beautiful satin-brown skin and dark hair that is their heritage.

I was with them one afteroon at the mall. His youngest kid, age 13, was wearing a "born in the USA" tee shirt, walking ahead of us by himself.

Shopkeeper saw the kid, read the tee shirt, and then cussed the kid out. Told the kid his mamma should have stayed in Mexico "where she belonged."

Disgusting.

But funny, in a disquieting sort of way. The poor kid's mom doesn't even speak Spanish. Heh.

pax

Keith Wheeler
August 29, 2006, 04:47 PM
Please identify these "anti-immigrant" folk of whom you speak.

The kind Pax just mentioned. The folks who say they are only against "illegals" and then assume that anyone of hispanic ethnicity MUST be illegal, or at the very least doesn't deserve to be an American citizen.

cassandrasdaddy
August 29, 2006, 04:55 PM
across the usa in 72 and 73 as a kid and saw signs that said no indians.i thought that was real funny. had a few nasty things yelled at me and some beer cans on saturday nite. brave folk all i was 15 weighed about 105. the nasty ones do get bold in groups or the dark

GhostRider66
August 29, 2006, 04:57 PM
I am half-quarter-quarter but 100% American. My mom is a naturalized American from Mexico. My dad is German-Irish from Oregon. I am a mutt and as loyal as any you'll find. Also, both my parents stressed the importance of education. Hence, I am completely fluent (and literate) in both languages. I also learned Czech, Slovak and Russian in the Army. I absolutely despise illegal immigration (despite being a screaming libertarian). My mom came here legally and followed every step until citizenship. I have rejected my own flesh and blood asking for illegal assitance with migration from Mexico. I will assist them with any legal process and pray for the best but never will I help them cheat. I would consider that treasonous.

Barbara
August 29, 2006, 05:05 PM
Not Mexican but the child of an immigrant and the grandchild of three immigrants.

longeyes
August 29, 2006, 05:29 PM
I would be interested in how the current political "crisis" surrounding border issues is affecting your life.

You're right to decry ethnic and racial prejudice. But I assume you apply that to ALL groups, including the Aztlan-type radicals that were in dramatic evidence marching in the streets of my home city not so long ago.

I don't know why you choose to put "crisis" in quotation marks. Does that mean you consider five million people illegally trespassing a year just business as usual?

Here's what I see: This country is sliding, inexorably, toward a race war that could be bloodier than anything we've seen since 1865. For me that qualifies as a "crisis."

Phetro
August 29, 2006, 05:39 PM
For the most part, it's simply frustration with the politicians. These folks have got as much of a right to spout off as anyone else -- it is America, after all...

Little correction there...they actually have no right to even be here, so spouting off...well sure they have a right to. In their own respective countries.

Cousin Mike
August 29, 2006, 05:42 PM
I'm black. My live-in girlfriend of 4.5 years is of Mexican descent. 4th generation - her family's been in Ohio for 3 of those generations. I notice when we go out sometimes, certain places, the white guys sometimes (rarely) give us a look - until they hear she speaks english just like anyone else who was born here. She's not fluent in spanish, and doesn't have an accent. But we have had a big influx of illegals here in Columbus in the past few years.

FWIW, I'd rather deal with the white dudes anyday compared to the looks the mexican guys give us... Always illegals, of course. Some of these guys can be very disrespectful - they make little smart-assed remarks in spanish, and in general seem to have a staring problem when it comes to mexican women. Takes quite an effort sometimes to refrain from beating some manners into some of these guys. :banghead: My girlfriend's decision to carry was made because a Mexican guy tried to force his way into her car. Luckily for her, she always locks all of her doors. Luckily for that bastard, I wasn't there. :fire:

For clarity, we have never had a problem with any of the American latino/a's we've met.

Also, my girlfriend doesn't feel any different about illegal aliens than any of us do. To be honest, she probably has stronger feelings on the issue - given that her family came here legally and became Americans. The economical issues are especially upsetting to us. I'm currently trying to find more stable work in the construction trades - need I say more?

Also, the ones we seem to see around here aren't the nicest people in the world. No complaints about the women, and when we travel it's not nearly as bad. But here in Columbus, a lot of the illegal-type males seem to walk around in groups, itching for a fight. There's also the crime element... Lots of crime recently amongst the illegal Mexicans, and Columbus has a high Somali population as well. The west side of Columbus is where a lot of the immigrants live, and word is that the Mexicans and the Somali's aren't getting along too well.

We're starting to feel some tension. :scrutiny:

How has it changed our lives? I don't really know that it has. We live about as far as it's possible to live from the west side and it's problems, but there are a lot of illegals on the north and east sides as well now. A lot of other people we know are getting sick of the way they act. It's not even so much legal/illegal for me as it is the way that the illegals act, towards us, in person... As for the violent rhetoric, we dont worry about it so much for now. When the Klan starts dramatically increasing in membership, and brown people are being attacked in the streets at random, maybe things will change - I don't know if I see that happening. What we really wish is that the government would start acting like we actually have a border, and start taking care of this problem.

As a black man, well... let's just say my people have been here for a pretty long time. We all know American history, so I'll spare the lecture, but our experience here (blacks) ain't always been the best, and we've worked hard as Americans (all of us, together) to try and change things. Her family has been here for the better part of the last 100 years, and struggled to be successful people like any other immigrant family has. I think you'd have a hard time sticking the charge that we are just racists who don't like Mexicans. :D

Neither one of us is happy about the illegal situation in this country. And things like the recent marches and walk-outs, MS-13, and our personal experiences aren't making things any better. I'm not worried about white folks rioting in the streets, or the minutemen being crazy vigilantes. I'm worried about what's going to happen to this country if we don't get this situation under control. We've got enough problems already.

MatthewVanitas
August 29, 2006, 05:44 PM
@Phetro

so spouting off...well sure they have a right to. In their own respective countries.

For many of them, their countries don't recognize the right to freedom of speech.

As for our country, the Declaration of Independence explicity states:

...that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights

i.e. those rights are not given by government, the government only has the power to recognize and help uphold those rights, which are inalienable.


It's fine to debate the cultural and economic effects of different types of immigration, but I personally am not willing to sell out the vision of the Founding Fathers just to fit my personal prejudices.

-MV

Keith Wheeler
August 29, 2006, 05:44 PM
But I assume you apply that to ALL groups...

Yep. "The only place the far right and far left hold hands is around the neck of the Jew."

I don't know why you choose to put "crisis" in quotation marks. Does that mean you consider five million people illegally trespassing a year just business as usual?

I put crisis in quotes because I'm just not sure what to call this situation. I think in some ways, like the "race war" you're talking about, things don't have to be a crisis, but are indeed being pushed that way. I mean, if the anti-"illegals" aren't primarily motivated by race, why would this lead to a "race war"?

Here's what I see:
1) broken border control
2) broken immigration and/or "guest worker" laws
3) broken business control
4) broken economic situations (which are the heart of all of this anyway)
5) broken concern for non-American human lives
6) lack of a realistic plan to deal with millions already here
7) tremendous subsurface racism in otherwise "mainstream" America

MechAg94
August 29, 2006, 06:14 PM
I don't like Illegal immigration, I wouldn't mind increasing legal immigration at all.

I work with a guy who has a wife who immigrated from Venezuela. They met in Venezuela when he worked down there. He has to keep a lawyer on standby and go to regular meetings with an immigraiton official. The govt draggs them around the system when she came over legally, yet they turn a blind eye to Illegal immigration. It pisses both of them off. She says she flew into the US, she didn't swim. :)

Billy_H
August 29, 2006, 06:28 PM
I have a friend who has lived in this country since he was a child/teenager. He came over from Cuba during the early Castro years, and was here legally as a resident alien and has worked hard to become a naturalized citizen (which he did a few years ago).

He also struggled to bring his father here legally and is now working hard to get him naturalized as well.

As with what some others have said, he is very upset over the current situation and talks of amnesty. He knows just as well as any other what it can be like outside this country and still worked within the constraints of our government and did things legally.

smp2010
August 29, 2006, 07:27 PM
Have a look at this...I am sure it makes ALL AMERICANS, no matter what heritage, anglo, hispanic, euro etc. cringe...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZM-N-GhttzU

smp2010
August 29, 2006, 07:33 PM
And to show who is really violating who watch this. This woman was forced by police to walk through the throng of illegal alien supporters. She was thrown to the ground hit and assaulted. Tough? Who should be getting CCW permits? This is not about anti Hispanics, but it is people who are tired of law breakers and will not back down no matter how violent they become towards those who speak up against their tactics. SILENCE is not an option, unless you are also hiring illegals to do work and putting Americans out of work....you know who you are.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWxpNmudmoE

smp2010
August 29, 2006, 07:36 PM
And although this was minor compared to what happened to some other peoples cars(smashed windows, spray painted doors with the words "f*ck you" and flat tires) but it shows which way the violence is coming.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZNagtPCRYc

Phetro
August 29, 2006, 07:38 PM
i.e. those rights are not given by government, the government only has the power to recognize and help uphold those rights, which are inalienable.


It's fine to debate the cultural and economic effects of different types of immigration, but I personally am not willing to sell out the vision of the Founding Fathers just to fit my personal prejudices.

You are correct indeed. My point was that they have no right to be here, therefore no right to do anything here. They have a right to free speech, and if their countries don't recognize that right, they need to go back and change their countries, not drag ours down to the same level.

I mean, if the anti-"illegals" aren't primarily motivated by race, why would this lead to a "race war"?

Perhaps the fact that 95% of the illegals are indeed of a certain race, are very conscious of that fact, and would be more than willing to subvert this nation and its laws, by force, under the uniting factor of that race. You can pretend this isn't the situation all you wish, but it is. You can condemn others for refusing to be blinded to the reality of the situation, but that won't change the reality.

lionking
August 29, 2006, 08:01 PM
there is a big difference between a citizen and someone who enters illegal.

I tend to get along with many people regardless,friends to me are because of similar hobbies (shooting-music) or what ever despite ethnic background.

I will say that at work and area (Miami) when I answer the phone many times someone starts talking spanish off the bat and is surprised when they find I dont speak it...though I do a little but on the phone its hard to.

the other day a customer came to me (and Im blued eyed blondish white) and started speaking spanish to me like I must speak it fluent.

In my employment in several job areas over time people have been hired and only spanish...these days some that dont speak english.

When the Elian Gonzalez saga happened my work closed to protest,last memorial day the management said we should stay open to work.....priority?...honoring memorial day and those who paid a ultimate price is not worth observing?

so I say this not being mad about it but the fact is no matter how well I get along with people after a while Ive felt out of place.

I make a better colada coffee than my hispanic friends though lol!

The bad things happening in South and Central America have changed south Florida.

as far as the Mexican issue like I said there is a difference between wanting to be a part of America and using it to just finacially better folks back in Mexico.

scromp
August 29, 2006, 08:05 PM
I'm white, but I'm adopting a Latino child very soon now. I'm kind of nervous about dealing with racist rednecks as he grows up, especially since I've never really had to deal with it exactly from that perspective. I will enjoy breaking stereotypes, but I hope I don't have to break too many noses.

Frog48
August 29, 2006, 08:15 PM
Some of these guys can be very disrespectful - they make little smart-assed remarks in spanish, and in general seem to have a staring problem when it comes to mexican women.

Thats the truth, you hit the nail on the head. The Mexican culture in general brings up men to treat women like objects, treating them like dirt. Wife-beating is an accepted thing in most hispanic cultures. Alot of what those people accept as "normal" would be considered sexual harassment and assault by American standards.

An ex-girlfiend of mine, whom I am still good friends with, grew up in El Paso, TX. She's of Mexican decent, her grandparents LEGALLY moved to the USA. She is very good looking, and very much "Americanized" in her dress/fashion and overall appearance. Out and about in public, its very disturbing to see how Mexican men look at her, make comments, and harass her. And they are even worse when they see that she is hanging around non-Mexicans.

lionking
August 29, 2006, 08:17 PM
scromp anybody regardless of their ethnic background can be racist.

speaking of the Elian Gonzalez saga again.The whites and the blacks banded together on the highway to protest....rebel flags waving and signs saying" one less Cuban,one million more to go".On any other day those whites and blacks would have been cursing eack other but not that day.Amazing to see blacks protesting on the side of rebel flags waving....it was a sad sight.

but then there was the hispanics with their own signs :F you gringo" and such,flags upside down....

sometimes I wonder what keeps this country together.

scromp
August 29, 2006, 08:21 PM
lionking: sure, but it's rednecks I'm surrounded by. :)

Frog48
August 29, 2006, 08:24 PM
I wouldnt worry about it too much. Raise him to wear Polo shirts and listening to country music, he'll be fine. If he grows up idolizing Pancho Villa and listening to mariachi and rap music... yeah, he might attract some attention from the local rednecks.

Also, raise him to value education (the same advice goes to all parents and children, regardless of race/ethnicity). Trust me, I dont think he'll be too offended being called "college boy" by the local uneducated hillbillies.

beerslurpy
August 29, 2006, 08:25 PM
Stop trying to construe this as a racial thing. I have no beef with hispanics, spanish speakers or anything of the sort. Most people in this country dont. People of all races, including hispanics, are ticked off.

People in this country are pissed because about 20 million of Mexico's problems have been dumped on our doorstep like sack full of rats. It would be like if we evacuated Katrina to Montreal and told them to enjoy the free health care and not come back. Now imagine repeating that evacuation several thousand times to get an idea of the scale of the problem Mexico has foisted upon us.

The illegals are being used and abused by businesses in this country and we are paying for all the free social services they consume. All the politicians see is piles of donations from business and piles of votes from the next generation of food stamp leeches.

Frog48
August 29, 2006, 08:28 PM
People in this country are pissed because about 20 million of Mexico's problems have been dumped on our doorstep like sack full of rats.

This is true. Its not the respectable, upstanding Mexican citizens that are jumping the border. The decent people put forth the effort to migrate legally.

Its the poor and criminal elements that view America as a place they can exploit.

zamboxl
August 29, 2006, 08:40 PM
I am a Cuban American and by that i mean born in Cuba came here legally, and became a citizen like my father, and mother, and the rest of my relatives we flew here, so technically i am cuban american, but as far as i am concern i am a U.S Citizen and that is all i give a damn about. If a hostile force invades Cuba i would not go over and fight to defend it, if a hostile force, any hostile force sets foot on American soil i will be in the front lines defending my country, so help me god.

That being said it does concern me sometimes whats going on, on one hand i worry about some of those crazy rednecks that might use a cituation to push their own racist agenda forward. On the other hand that video shown earlier, and the protest that mexicans had holding a mexican flag on U.S soil made me and my family sick, and so do the damn exile cubans down in dade county when they do their little shows, it show to me that they have no regard for the American way of life and the laws here.

The only regard they have is to their own bias agenda and to me that makes them no better than the racist bastards that do not deferenciate, and treat legals and illegals alike, when at one point their family also where legal imigrants. I apologise for the long post, but had to get the feelings off my chest.

Cousin Mike
August 29, 2006, 08:43 PM
Scromp - you're a good person to adopt a child. You have a lot of challenges ahead adopting a child of a different race, and you seem to know that. Break every nose you have to - but hopefully you never will.

I dunno about all that country music, though. :D

And FWIW, I haven't met too many black folks who have a problem with latino's... There's a saying I wont repeat verbatim here - but it's basically stating that we're the same people, we just speak a different language. I guess that's why lionking's experience surprises me - every Perto Rican / Cuban I've ever met is either part black, or just a black dude who speaks spanish. Hell, half of those countries are black.

I won't speak for the ignorant, but not everyone knows their own history.

Grant48 - quote from my girlfriend who I've been reading this thread to, re:

The Mexican culture in general brings up men to treat women like objects, treating them like dirt. Wife-beating is an accepted thing in most hispanic cultures. Alot of what those people accept as "normal" would be considered sexual harassment and assault by American standards.

Her reply:

"Yeah, they act like they've never seen a ******* woman before... it's almost predatory."

It's a pretty serious problem. My girlfriend is like your friend - a very attractive latina woman and 100% American. The illegal guys HATE seeing her with "el negrito". I'm almost positive it's going to come to something physical one day with one of these guys. The level of disrespect they show is astounding.

It pisses me off on an even more personal level as an American. People across the world think we are the rudest people on earth. It's obvious they've never met an illegal alien tough guy from Mexico.

bowline
August 29, 2006, 08:44 PM
The problem isn't hispanic Americans, the problem is illegal immigrants.
If they are scofflaw enough to jump the border illegally, there is a good chance they'll ignore other little details of the law.
If they come to this country not to become Americans, but to extend Mexico... If they reject American values... if they profess allegiance to a foreign power...
If it does come to a 'war' against illegal immigrants, I'll have Cousin Mike at one shoulder, and zamboxl at the other - defending America.
'American' isn't a race, it's a common system of values and ideals. Attempting to frame the discussion as a racial question is just a bait-n-switch.

lionking
August 29, 2006, 08:46 PM
just to put a fair perspective on what I already said..

there was a woman who worked with my employment for a while.She came from Venezuela,was a nurse there and became a secretary here for almost minimum wage.
She didnt speak any english at all but after working all day would go at night to class to learn english and after a while we communicated good.

there is a young guy at work who won a raffle to come to America from Cuba.He stayed late after work for free to learn my trade and now he he's been promoted and is doing great.

lionking
August 29, 2006, 08:56 PM
cousin mike I saw the protest,it was right down the road from me on US1 and what I said is the sad truth.There was the whites who were already racist against everybody,the blacks who were racist against the hispanics because they felt they stole opportunity and jobs....and the hispanics who band together because of culture.

on a individual level people will be friendly but too many times racisim rears a ugly head.Do I feel hatred to anybody ? no, but like I said its only natural that if you are not among people you feel common with you start to feel like an outsider like I do now in Miami and Im leaving this place soon because of that and because finacially Ill be better somewhere else.

zamboxl
August 29, 2006, 09:02 PM
lionking i dont blame you for wanting to get out of Miami i am Of Cuban decent, and i stay out of Dade county as much as possible, H$11 everytime i go down there when i get back to Broward my blood pressure is through the roof, and i am only 23 years old i should not be having high blood pressure till i am 50 lol.

Edit::::: lionking did you see the protest/celebration when they though Castro was dead? Sure Castro is not a God sent, but to be out on the streets celebrating someones death like that is unspeakable. Whatching that reminded me of Somalia, and watching Somalians celebrate by draging the bodies of our soldiers through the streets.

Cousin Mike
August 29, 2006, 09:06 PM
No doubt that what you saw was real - I'm only 26 years old though. I vaguely remember the Elian Gonzales debacle, but I was in high school. Didn't watch much news back then. I guess it just makes me angry to see my people act that way with all we've had to deal with in this country.

OTOH, I can understand. I've always said that if it came to an armed rebellion against illegals, black folks would be some of the first in line to get their rifles. My reasoning for saying that is because it's OUR jobs the illegals are taking.. not the rich, college educated white guys job. They are taking all the labor, food oriented and customer service jobs... Jobs that typically lower-middle class blacks and whites have always worked. Add to the mix that you have the Mexican president going on TV making stupid, half-ass racist statements about blacks, and the blatantly racist attitude the illegals tend to have towards blacks (as well as whites), and.. well...

...it's not too hard to see why a lot of us are just as pissed off as anyone else.

scromp
August 29, 2006, 09:13 PM
Thanks for the words, Mike. I am mostly just nervous, but I also think it will be a rewarding challenge.

I never meant to imply that everyone against illegal immigration was racist, or that anyone here was at all, but there are a lot of dumb people out there who look at every latino (or every black person, or every asian, or every white guy) the same way. The people who couldn't tell an illegal from a real immigrant or might not even be interested in doing so.

Those are the guys I worry about.

lionking
August 29, 2006, 09:19 PM
zamboxl I will celebrate when Castro dies....he is a tyrant and some of my older Cuban friends have personally told me of their family members murdered by his regime.One of the first things Castro did was confiscate all firearms.

I dont blame them at all for celebrating.I dont mind any ethnic culture celebtrating a cultural holiday.I have had a couple spanish girlfriends before,Peruvian,Columbian and Cuban.

But I dont want to see America torn apart,where American ideals are lost.

and personally as a rock n roller I need to go where Ill be able to play where there is more of a demand for my music.I cant play salsa or hiphop on guitar lol!

lionking
August 29, 2006, 09:27 PM
Now Venezuela have to deal with Hugo Chavez....

zamboxl
August 29, 2006, 09:33 PM
lionking alot of those old time Cubans that are upset about what Castro did are Batistas boys not alot of them mind you but alot of them are, and everyone knows that Batistas goverment was corrupt where the rich and elite, or the criminal element ( the mob) controled the wealth, the jobs, and the oportunites, and they did this by opressing the majority (poor) people of Cuba at the time. And if those old timers of which you speak of want Castro out so bad, and you keep seeing them on tv Talking about how bad Castro is and How much they do to take him out of power, then where are the rifle they plan to use to invade Cuba and take him out. Why dont they stop talking and act, i am sorry but i have a hard time believing their story, i rather believe that they want Castro out out of their own personal goal, and the rest is all propaganda to achieve their goal.

Yes Castro is a Tyrant that has killed many people, and opresses the Cuban people but if you really want to get into murders? Well do a little research on how many people disapeared during Batista? how many people where murder by the mob/Batistas corrupt goverment. I know Castro is an Evil son of a you know what, but alot of those old old time Cubans that came over here when Castro took over where just as bad as him, How do i know this ask my mother, and my father they will tell you. We are not Castro suporters we came here becasue we did not like him and his system, but we are not blind either.
Disclaimer :: i do not mean to say that all of the old timers where part of the elits that ran Cuba back in the day, however some of them are influencing or have influenced the masses to get their own biased agenda across.

crazed_ss
August 29, 2006, 09:38 PM
ere's what I see: This country is sliding, inexorably, toward a race war that could be bloodier than anything we've seen since 1865. For me that qualifies as a "crisis.

I thought this wasnt about race? I thought it was about illegal immigration.
Why would there be a race war? Who would be the factions in this race war?
Is it gonna be Whites against Mexicans or what? Where do Blacks and other races stand? Will we be neutral and just stand around while Whites and Mexicans kill each other? Then again many of my friends are Mexican and my girl is Mexican, so my kids will probably be half-Mexican... I guess I'll have to join the Mexican faction.

Race war.. lollerskates. :rolleyes:

EDIT: This is why I buy guns. I'm not scared of gov't JBTs or tyrants taking over the government. I'm not scared of terrorists or an invasion from some foreign government. I fear loony THR types who are always talking about race wars and other impending doom. If these guys ever leave their keyboards and decide to follow through with what they're saying, I dont want to be the one without a gun.. because God knows these guys are gonna be armed to the teeth.

lionking
August 29, 2006, 09:49 PM
yes there is alot of sheer speculating and chest beating that goes on about race wars,abolishment of the 2nd amendment,doom and gloom scenerios and such...

phftt!...I dont know about a in the streets shoot em' up race war but what needs to be addressed is a possible America split and divided by cultural clashes....for instance a America half spanish language and half english speaking.

for ALL immigration there has to be a medium so people can stay united as a nation,not just a bunch of people thrown together who feel alligiance only to the motherland

Cousin Mike
August 29, 2006, 09:55 PM
I never meant to imply that everyone against illegal immigration was racist

scromp - I don't think anyone took your post as implying that. :)

You have very legitimate concerns, and racism is still very alive in America. Unfortunately, now you are going to experience that in ways that you never have before... and probably never imagined still existed. It'll probably be the most rewarding, and challenging experience of your life at the same time. And I'm sure you'll make a wonderful parent. All of your concerns are legitimate, and anyone with any common sense would share your concerns in your situation.

crazed_ss

This is why I buy guns. I'm not scared of gov't JBTs or tyrants taking over the government. I'm not scared of terrorists or an invasion from some foreign government. I fear loony THR types who are always talking about race wars and other impending doom. If these guys ever leave their keyboards and decide to follow through with what they're saying, I dont want to be the one without a gun.. because God knows these guys are gonna be armed to the teeth.

:evil:

I like your style, mah brotha... :D

By the way - my girl is Mexican too, but if the war pops off, she's on our side... :rolleyes:
Rethink that one for me, would ya? :p

Edited because I'm a dumbass :)

cz75bdneos22
August 29, 2006, 09:57 PM
here...i love people and i love guns...all kinds of both, but what i despise is negaqtive people. period. what race, culture, economics is irrelevant. a jerk is a jerk is a jerk everywhere...

lionking
August 29, 2006, 10:03 PM
I would never understand why someone would WANT to shoot someone....well except maybe Osama Bin.Ah but he doesnt care if you are white black or hispanic....he sees us all as America?

Panthera Tigris
August 29, 2006, 11:34 PM
I'm white, my girlfriend is black. I tend to look and treat everyone the same. I tend to be friendly toward people and I don't much care what their ethnic background is. I'm against illegal immigration also. I don't care if they come in by the millions from everywhere in the world, so long as they come in legally. I've known and worked in the past with folks from Nigeria, Hong Kong, Russia, Mexico, Valenzuela, Laos, the Phillipines, Japan, Germany, England, all over. And I've gotten along with everyone and always took the time to listen and understand when conversing with people. I have also found that we are all alike. We all have the same dreams, desires and fears.
And all of the mentioned people I've worked with would also stand with me against illegal immigration.

0luke1
August 30, 2006, 07:01 AM
I'm with Mr. Vanitas. The vision of the founders was civil rights for human beings - not just the ones with "papers."

Most of the undocumented working people are on payrolls. They give employers social security numbers which aren't theirs. Employers pay SSI (7.5% - most people don't know about that tax because they don't see it) and employees have SSI and other taxes deducted from their paycheck (that's the tax you know about).

The government does not incur an obligation to pay undocumented workers benefits, but takes the money regardless. Factories operate with cheap laborers who cannot openly organize or protest because they have no documents and no rights.

The taxes collected without an obligation to provide federal benefits amounts to billions a year in free money for Washington.

That's just one reason the government allows 11-15 million people to live as non-citizens within the boundaries of our country.

There are many people who are just fine with keeping undocumented workers "illegal." That's why they're here. As an American and as a veteran, it disgusts me to think that our country treats fellow human beings living among us as sub-human.

BTW, beerslurpy, I'm not sure if you intended to sound like a racist, but I found your statement linking "20 million" people to "rats" to be disturbing and bigoted. Perhaps this was unintentional, however, in my opinion, it has no place in a reasonable discussion and it certainly doesn't paint the people in this forum in a good light.

beerslurpy
August 30, 2006, 07:45 AM
Did you read the other 90 percent of my post? There are plenty of substantial reasons to hate illegal immigrants and none of them have anything to do with race. These other reasons are why I think of them as a form of human vermin.

The main problem with illegals is that they are poor. The second problem is that they are illiterate and not interested in learning english, which means they will stay poor, probably for generations. Poverty is a bad thing. Poor people are statistically inclined towards illness, crime and countless other ills. Thanks to the socialism that has crept into our system, it is also an expensive thing for us, slowly eating away at our health care system and our government's solvency.

If those in charge succeed in converting these teeming masses of poor into voters, you can expect the government feeding trough to swell in size. This will mean much higher taxes than even blue-staters currently have and it will mean decades of government getting bigger at our expense.

Before anyone brings it up, it doesnt matter if the illegals pay taxes. If you make less than about 50k (It might be a bit less or more) per year, you are taking more out of the system than you are putting in. If we create a crapload of 20k a year jobs for illegals, we arent adding revenue to the system, we are just adding more sick people, more criminals and more food stamp recipients. And it comes disproportionately out of OUR pockets.

Don't you get it? These people are taking from us and giving us back only grief, disease and ignorance. If this isnt verminhood, what can be? They need to be sent back to the country that shoved them across the border. If we can get rid of the social welfare system in this country, I am open to unlimited immigration, but until then it needs to be completely shut off.

shootinstudent
August 30, 2006, 07:55 AM
The main problem with illegals is that they are poor.

By this reasoning, we should all have hated the hurricane Katrina refugees who required federal assistance.

The second problem is that they are illiterate and not interested in learning english, which means they will stay poor, probably for generations.

I see this claim repeated frequently, without any shred of proof.

Can anyone who believes that illegals do not want to learn English please furnish something resembling solid evidence of this position? "I went to town and saw a sign in spanish" does not prove that all, most, many, or illegals in general do not want to learn english.

Every single one I've ever met (of many) would've loved to learn english. Your whole life is easier in America if you speak it.

Thanks to the socialism that has crept into our system, it is also an expensive thing for us, slowly eating away at our health care system and our government's solvency.

Socialism in healthcare? In America??? Huh? We have perhaps the most privatized and least regulated health care system in the developed world. It also provides the least access to the poor.

What we do have are laws that prohibit refusing emergency care on the basis of inability to pay. If that's what you want to eliminate, be my guest, but don't be shocked when you or someone you know is injured and shows up at the hospital without id...only to be refused treatment until "proof of ability to pay" appears.

If we create a crapload of 20k a year jobs for illegals, we arent adding revenue to the system, we are just adding more sick people, more criminals and more food stamp recipients. And it comes disproportionately out of OUR pockets


And if we want everyone to have a 50k a year job, we'll bankrupt the companies that drive the economy.


Unchecked immigration is a serious problem. It is not, however, the worst problem we've ever faced, and most of the worries associated with it seem to be based on a vision of this grand "socialist welfare" system that America doesn't have. Poor means poor in America, and you get poorer healthcare, poorer living conditions, and poorer treatment generally if you are poor here.

If we can get rid of the social welfare system in this country

FYI, Mexico is much more of a socialist state than the US ever will be.

beerslurpy
August 30, 2006, 08:34 AM
Such ignorance. Let me help.

Why do you think paying customers get 500 dollar advil or 300 dollar a stich sewing? Hint: youre paying for the thousands of illegals that visit the emergency room every time they catch a cold and then refuse to pay.

And surely you must have heard of the medicare and medicaid programs by now? They only cost the better part of a TRILLION dollars each year. Money that comes from our pockets.

shootinstudent
August 30, 2006, 08:49 AM
Why do you think paying customers get 500 dollar advil or 300 dollar a stich sewing? Hint: youre paying for the thousands of illegals that visit the emergency room every time they catch a cold and then refuse to pay.


Having worked in healthcare regulation, I chuckle everytime I see the "costs" cited by some hospitals for these products.

Almost no one who goes to the hospital actually pays for 500 dollar advil or 300 a stitch sewing. Your insurance company does not pay those prices, and the hospital does not lay out that kind of money on the treatment.

You pay outrageous prices because you as an individual have no bargaining power, and because near sinister levels of vertical integration allow for widespread price fixing against you. The insurance companies are part of the pyramid, so it doesn't happen to them like it happens to you....but they will charge you an outrageous premium, anyway.

But illegals, of course, are an easy target for this problem, just like they're an easy target for all sorts of problems, whether they actually cause it or not. I'd like to see, since continued poverty certainly is a concern, some evidence that illegals "don't want to learn english" and that their kids don't learn english.

And surely you must have heard of the medicare and medicaid programs by now? They only cost the better part of a TRILLION dollars each year. Money that comes from our pockets.

On top of the fixed prices for medical services, a large part of this is fraud (even larger than the cost of illegal treatment, some would say), and illegals cannot enroll in those programs. Federal law makes them available to citizens only.

EDIT: This blame game inevitably, with immigration, focuses on hispanics and guess who will be targeted for stepped up enforcement and "race war" if the doomsayers have their way?

It won't be people with white skin. I understand completely why hispanic Americans would be worried about and see racism in all of this outrage about illegal immigration; they're the ones who will face more discrimination and hassling by law enforcement as a result.

stillamarine
August 30, 2006, 09:12 AM
The main problem with illegals is that they are poor........Poverty is a bad thing. Poor people are statistically inclined towards illness, crime and countless other ills. Thanks to the socialism that has crept into our system, it is also an expensive thing for us, slowly eating away at our health care system and our government's solvency.



Hmm So I must be a vermin...or an illegal. I gew up poor as did everybody in my neighborhood.

Oh maybe the guys that I knew in the Marine Corps that were on government subsidies because the military didn't pay them enough to feed their families are illegals??

That is the biggest load of .... That I have ever heard. Thier is a problem with people being poor??? Yes it sucks, yes some people take advantage of the system...but soem people can't help it. Some people work thier tail off and barely scrape by. I have been their in my life.

You know what we need? Some of these people that think being poor is a choice....need to do like that movie Trading Places with Dan Akyrod and Eddie Murphy. Learn what it's like than come back and talk to me

GoRon
August 30, 2006, 09:43 AM
The reason they are called illegals is because they have broken the law to get in the US. They then continue o break the law by staying.

I am honestly less worried about the folks that are here already than the ones that are going to come. Time to turn off the spigot of illegal entry. Time for a cooling off period of assimulation.

It makes no sense to let anyone who wants just waltz right in and take up residence ahead of those going through the right channels.

The Mexican community is close to if not overtly taking a position that Mexicans have a right/entitlement to come to this country. That is wrong, they are allowed in at our pleasure.

Fighting against border control and labeling us proponants of border control as racists is way more divisive than anything the Minutemen have done. By fighting against border control they are fighting to keep the United States vulnerable to attack by our enemies.

Ezekiel
August 30, 2006, 10:23 AM
If so, does the more violent rhetoric of some anti-immigrant folks give you cause for concern?

Well, I think it is highly hypocritical as, for Americans, there is no such psuedo-moral thing as "legal immigration." (The whole damned place is stolen land, deal with it.) :evil:

Saying, for example (metaphor), "I'm Irish and my people have been here for 3 generations," merely means you've had three generations in support of the great myth: that you are any more justified in being here than someone who walked across a ravine. :banghead:

(If folks think differently, then they MUST be in support of citizenship by virtue of live birth, or time-observed standing, in this country: because that's all they've got.)

That being said, I am not one of those American Indian-types who desires to go "back to the way it was." Those folks are a bunch of romanticizing fools. There were tribes that made Serbs and Croats look like best buddies and it all gets whitewashed into what an angelic place this was before white men. (Bah!) "That's crap."

It is all pretty complex, and I am enjoying this thread.

wingman
August 30, 2006, 10:37 AM
It is all pretty complex, and I am enjoying this thread.

Not really complex it is simply holding the ground you have. By law it is
illegal to enter this "ground" America without approval. Now if you wish
open borders then how many can we take in, at what point will the system
fail.

Our present border system is broke, too many coming, some good people,
but on the other hand many very bad. Who is at fault, our government, the
Mexican government and the wealthy on both sides. Subsidized labor paid for
by the middle-class is like drugs it becomes additive.

If we continue on our present path of importing poor under educated people,
exporting jobs in huge numbers we will in time become a third world country,
and it would be far less painful to stop it now then in 20 years. I don't believe
we can be apathetic any longer.

mp510
August 30, 2006, 10:44 AM
I'm quarter Italian, and my grandmother came here from Italy (via UK) legally and later became a US Citizen. She still has a thick Italian accent, despite being here since the early 50's, and is often discriminated against because people believe she is a Latina.

High Planes Drifter
August 30, 2006, 10:52 AM
Kevin wheeler:
Yep. "The only place the far right and far left hold hands is around the neck of the Jew."
-----------------------------

What the @*#! :confused: ? I consider myself right wing/conservative, I have absolutely no problem with Jews. I would imagine that most Americans take great pride in what this nations' people -both right and left wing- have done for the Jewish people. What exactly do you mean by that statement?
-------------------------------------------
Cousin Mike wrote:
The economical issues are especially upsetting to us. I'm currently trying to find more stable work in the construction trades - need I say more?
-------------------------------------------

I know EXACTLY what you mean by that. Im in New Orleans. Now this is in New Orleans, where you would think a carpenter could name his price due to the amount of work/storm damage repair - but the bulk of the construction companies in the area are made up of illegals who are being paid under the table (no taxes taken out) and are working for 10.00 per hour. Its very typical to find 10 or 15 illegals sharing a one bedroom apartment, and send 1/2 of thier money back to Mexico. I have seen first hand how illegals drive down sallaries, particularly in the construction industry, and in lawn maintanance. Carpenters, roofers, and drywall men should be making well over 20 bucks an hour in this area.
To keep this gun related, yes I do carry a pistol on me all day, there are way to many illegals in this area to feel safe unarmed. They broke the law getting here, didnt they? Says something about how much they respect the laws of this nation.

lionking
August 30, 2006, 11:45 AM
quote;Can anyone who believes that illegals do not want to learn English please furnish something resembling solid evidence of this position? "I went to town and saw a sign in spanish" does not prove that all, most, many, or illegals in general do not want to learn english

if you live where it is predominately spanish you will see there is really no need for recent immigrants to learn english....trust me on that.

America is one of the most generous nations,but to have a open door policy will hurt this country.

You should see the rules for a person to immigrate to Mexico.You must be a professional,and if yoy are retired you must be able to support yourself because if you dont you go to jail....

Here in Miami county run Jackson Hospital is millions in debt because people come here from South America for medical treatment then skip back to South America leaving the debt on taxpayers.

really its not cold hearted to not want to give free everything to illegal immigrants,there are private charities that would do this.

Cousin Mike
August 30, 2006, 02:09 PM
If you make less than about 50k (It might be a bit less or more) per year, you are taking more out of the system than you are putting in.

Then about 70% of this country is a burden on itself if that's the case... I'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

The main problem with illegals is that they are poor........Poverty is a bad thing. Poor people are statistically inclined towards illness, crime and countless other ills.

Already been commented on, but I couldn't ignore this one. :fire:

I don't know exactly how you meant this one beerslurpy - we all know that for a fact, but what would you have us do? Sounds like in your way of thinking, we should just take everyone who doesn't make as much money as you and throw them into the sea.

I dunno how I feel about that. :scrutiny:

longeyes
August 30, 2006, 02:33 PM
For those of you who want to keep rationalizing illegal immigration, remember that you are rationalizing the lawlessness of our government and, increasingly, our business community, while you are undermining the social cohesion and, above all, the sovereignty of this nation. If you want Mexico, keep importing Mexicans; you are bringing in a culture, not just cheap labor. All of this will end with ugly internecine war, well observed in so many other societies around the world.

Cousin Mike
August 30, 2006, 02:44 PM
Don't think I've seen anyone here advocating/rationalizing/in favor of illegal immigration - disagreeing with one point someone makes doesn't automatically mean that shootinstudent or anyone else is rationalizing illegal immigration. What I think some are saying is that racism is definitely a factor.

What ever happened to the middle ground? If there's one thing I hate about THR sometimes, it's this:

You give an opinion on something that doesn't go 100% with the sentiment of the crowd... Then you're classified as completely right-wing extremist, or completely left-wing extremist - depending on what you had to say...

What's up with the stupidass mob mentality? Is individuality and one's right to his/her own opinion REALLY such a negative thing?

People can disagree on fine points, and still agree on major issues... It's called being a normal person with your own thoughts and feelings. Not everyone has to have their opinion fed to them on an internet forum... Some folks are quite capable of thinking for themselves.

Just my $0.02... as always, you got it for free.

Ain't that just ducky? :cool:

shootinstudent
August 30, 2006, 02:50 PM
Is illegal immigration a problem?

Absolutely.

Is it so bad that we should spend trillions of dollars and turn America into a police state to combat it?

Absolutely not.

Is racism towards hispanic peoples part of the anti-illegal movement?

Yes.

It's amazing. You get (judging by the pictures) a bunch of white people mobbing together with American flags, and then posting on internet boards about a coming "race war", only to feign shock that some people (hispanics even!) might tend to perceive the motivations of these people as racist in nature?

We should try to stop illegal immigration, but living in a society where people are not harrassed because of their race is important also. Having a country where every hispanic looking person is stopped and asked for proof of citizenship at every corner is something to avoid too, and the racial division that would result is imo much more dangerous than illegal immigration.

beerslurpy
August 30, 2006, 02:55 PM
Poverty is bad when it counts as a mechanism by which people can dip into my pockets. I was born into poverty but my family never took a dime from any charity or the government. We lived frugally and we worked our way out of it. The illegals are not. They use our emergency rooms, they send their children to our schools, collect from our public services and soon they want to vote in our elections.

It isnt our responsibility to provide foreign nationals with opportunities to get ahead, and it sure as hell isnt our responsibility to make sure they are healthy, well fed and educated. The idea of allowing them representation in our government is plainly insane.

ArmedBear
August 30, 2006, 03:02 PM
a coming "race war",

Now of course, people who hate Latinos will also hate Latino illegal immigrants. Duh.

However, the "race war" is something that organized Chicano groups have called for, and acknowledging this is hardly "racist." Educate yourself, if you don't know this; stop lying if you do.

Furthermore, the state of California provides support for some of these groups, despite their racism. The take-home message is, "Racism is great, as long as you're not white. If you're a white racist, you're evil. But no one else has to live up to that standard, even to use state resources for their organizations."

http://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/~mecha/planaztlan1.html

Now tell me, is the motto "For La Raza todo. Fuera de La Raza nada." not racist?

(It means "For the Race all. Outside the Race nothing.")

Do I advocate that the Klan get state money? Hell no! Neither should La Raza or MeChA, though.

Cousin Mike
August 30, 2006, 03:02 PM
Thanks for clearing that up, beerslurpy.

FWIW, I agree 100%.. and I wasn't trying to be an agitator - I knew the way that statement came across was not the way you necessarily meant it.

cassandrasdaddy
August 30, 2006, 03:08 PM
does tell a lot. more telling is how little the attitudes on video offend some folks. but then again ones right to be a bigot is protected... sorta.theres a link above where a guy was crying about being attacked. "just for waving an american flag" theres a short shot of his van and his driving it into the demonstration was tantamount to wearing a white sheet in harlem. were the folks who attacked his van wrong? absolutely! was he a moron for deliberately provoking a mob? hmmmm
remeinds me of the guy who got in charles barkleys face after barkley lost a game. got head handed to him. heck judge asked the dweeeb" what were you thinking?!"

there are a fair number of folks real active in the "movements" on both sides that bring lil good to their images. those movements would be wise to police their less attractive members.

whofan
August 30, 2006, 03:11 PM
Mother-Peruvian of Spanish, Italian, and Indian decent.
Grand parents, see above. I was born here before they emmigrated here, though.

Father-German/Irish. His mother emmigrated from Ireland around 1900-1910. His father born here. 3rd Generation American of German ancestory.

My maternal grandparents lived back and forth between Peru and the US for many years before becomming permanant residents sometime in the mid to late '70's.

I speak no Spanish and have no allegience/feelings for any country except the US. No one bothers me about being .5 Hispanic.

My mother always said that illegal Hispanic trouble makers made all Latinos look bad. She hated them with a passion.

My position is that the southern border should be made airtight.

beerslurpy
August 30, 2006, 03:13 PM
It's cool.

shootingstudent, you are creating a false dichotomy. We can solve the immigration problem without turning the country into a police state.

Three easy steps:
1) We already have to show papers to work- having to show non-forged papers is the only improvement we need. This cuts off the employers from getting their fix of cheap labor. Punish violators severely and allow local police to keep half the fines collected. We have all the manpower in place already.

2) Actually start deporting criminals that turn out to be illegal aliens. If you get pulled over or arrested, you should serve your time (if convicted) and then you should be deported regardless of the outcome of the trial.

3) Spend the 5 billion dollars and build a wall and have border patrol watch it. This way the people we eject in step 2 dont come back over and become our problem again. It should NEVER be possible for an illegal to accumulate 17 DUIs before finally being arrested for the one that kills someone. He should get pulled over for the first one and never be heard from again in this country.

shootinstudent
August 30, 2006, 03:14 PM
However, the "race war" is something that organized Chicano groups have called for, and acknowledging this is hardly "racist." Educate yourself, if you don't know this; stop lying if you do.


Okay, what does that have to do with a group of anti-illegal protestors being:

almost 100 percent white AND having some members bashing hispanic culture and talking about preparing for "race war" online? I'm not sure of what your claim is here.

Does the fact that some hispanic extremist groups talk about race war mean that hispanics shouldn't be worried about racism? Or are you claiming something else?

Furthermore, the state of California provides support for some of these groups, despite their racism. The take-home message is, "Racism is great, as long as you're not white. If you're a white racist, you're evil. But no one else has to live up to that standard, even to use state resources for their organizations."

Okay, the motto is from the plandeaztlan, a radical "chicano" (whatever that means) manifesto from decades ago. It is not:

1. The motto of La Raza nor is it

2. The motto of MeCha

Neither La Raza nor MeCha have ever called for race war, or for expelling whites, or for laws that would lead America LEO's to start checking whites' papers every time they leave the house.

I do not like either La Raza or MeCha, because they are in my opinion racist organizations. But they certainly aren't telling their members to stock up on ammo for a coming race war....which is something I see all the time on discussions where anti-illegal immigrant types get involved.

Cousin Mike
August 30, 2006, 03:16 PM
cassandrasdaddy:

:D

Man... you seem to have a way with words thats just brilliant in it's simplicity. If you ever find yourself in Columbus, we need to go get a brew and shoot the sh*t.

I couldn't have said it better myself. Of course, some people wouldn't see a problem wearing white sheets in Harlem either. I'd be willing to bet these same people would cry and complain about how they were randomly attacked when the brothas uptown put a hurtin' on their ass too...

Ah well.. what would life be without crybaby antagonists?

ArmedBear
August 30, 2006, 03:25 PM
almost 100 percent white AND having some members bashing hispanic culture and talking about preparing for "race war" online? I'm not sure of what your claim is here.


Well, the "other side" is almost 100% hispanic AND has some members bashing American culture and talking about specific plans for starting a "race war" online. That's my claim. And they're doing it with California state funds.


Does the fact that some hispanic extremist groups talk about race war mean that hispanics shouldn't be worried about racism? Or are you claiming something else?

They can worry all they want, but on a daily basis, it's a complete non-issue here in San Diego. Where are you?

Now, if you're saying that only hispanic "extremists" are talking about a "race war", while in the world of Whitey the idea is mainstream, that's downright ridiculous. Few people really give a crap. That's why you have frustrated extremists, and politicians from both parties who pay little attention to them.


Neither La Raza nor MeCha have ever called for race war, or for expelling whites

You are a liar, or you can't read.

"AztlŠn belongs to those who plant the seeds, water the fields, and gather the crops and not to the foreign Europeans. We do not recognize capricious frontiers on the bronze continent."

"Our struggle then must be for the control of our barrios, campos, pueblos, lands, our economy, our culture, and our political life."

"Lands rightfully ours will be fought for and defended. Land and realty ownership will be acquired by the community for the people's welfare. Economic ties of responsibility must be secured by nationalism and the Chicano defense units."

TX35
August 30, 2006, 03:29 PM
cassandrasdaddy, Your whole analogy equates to "it's a womens fault at being raped for wearing a short skirt". Sorry, but it's total BS!!! So, if your wife or girlfriend is at the mall looking kinda sexy in skirt, & she gets sexually assaulted, it must be HER fault!!! ANYONE in America should be able to wave the US flag in this country without fear of being attacked!!!

shootinstudent
August 30, 2006, 03:33 PM
Well, the "other side" is almost 100% hispanic AND has some members bashing American culture and talking about specific plans for starting a "race war" online. That's my claim. And they're doing it with California state funds

What does this have to do with the feelings of hispanic americans towards anti-illegal immigration rhetoric and racism?

They can worry all they want, but on a daily basis, it's a complete non-issue here in San Diego. Where are you?


Sometimes Northern California, sometimes Central Texas, sometimes Canberra. I speak spanish nearly as well as I speak english, and I certainly think it's an issue with spanish speakers and their non-spanish speaking relatives and children.

Now, if you're saying that only hispanic "extremists" are talking about a "race war", while in the world of Whitey the idea is mainstream, that's downright ridiculous. Few people really give a crap. That's why you have frustrated extremists, and politicians from both parties who pay little attention to them.

Not really the point I was making. Think of it this way instead: If you worry about Hispanic extremists, why wouldn't you expect hispanics to worry just as much about white extremists, especially when they're vocal and people make excuses for their extreme "get your guns ready" talk, like "well....it's the fault of the illegals that they're loading up!"?

You are a liar, or you can't read.

You might want to actually read up on your own topics before you accuse me of illiteracy or dishonesty.

El Plan de Aztlan was formulated before MeCha was even an organization. MeCha has its own charter and motto: "La Union Hace La Fuerza".

La Raza is completely unconnected to "El Plan de Aztlan."

You are citing a document not written by MeCha or La Raza, and then claiming that these groups promulgated the document.

You might try, for example, reading MeCha chapter to websites to see what the MeCha motto and charter are, like U of H, for example: http://www.mechadeuh.com/public_html/mexa_facts_and_myths.htm

Art Eatman
August 30, 2006, 03:33 PM
If folks want to discuss Aztlan, La Raz or MeCha, take it to http://www.armedpolitesociety.com

Or we can see this thread closed...

:), Art

Biker
August 30, 2006, 03:38 PM
Shootinstudent...

Would you support a caucasion org that referred to itself as "The Race?" Give them national TV time? Support them with fed funds?


Biker

Biker
August 30, 2006, 03:40 PM
Oops...posted before seeing Art's post.

Biker

cassandrasdaddy
August 30, 2006, 03:41 PM
my point is if you go looking for trouble or a fight and then wanna girl up when you find some the area i grew up in labeled ya. not nice names. we have a kid around here drove around with a huge battle flag in his truck ll skinny wannabe tough guy would circle folks he thought were safe. i like that flag he was using it to try to upset folks. would talk trash "i scared them good " nonsense. i told him i'd pay 200 cash if he was man enough to drive it across the 14th street bridge with it. i still have the 200.are there legitimate issues about immigration? sure but surrounding your " cause" with folks who are gonna be identified as whack jobs by a majority of folks is no way to win support. when i watch the video i see a lot of fear and ugly behavior glad its not me

Ezekiel
August 30, 2006, 04:07 PM
Would you support a caucasion org that referred to itself as "The Race?"

Actually, the rest of the world seems to equate such with "The United States."

Such is, certainly, part of our problem. If you're [USA] perceived as arrogant, self-righteous and Imperialist, nobody cares about following your rules, whether within our outside this nation. :banghead:

Biker
August 30, 2006, 04:13 PM
You didn't answer my question.

Biker

Ezekiel
August 30, 2006, 04:37 PM
You didn't answer my question.

Biker

Had to look again, friend.

"No," I wouldn't support such.

Of course, reflexively, that explains a lot. :uhoh:

To say that the United States is at fault for this "problem" is going too far. Too indicate that we don't mind, in general, that it [cheap and greasy labor] is here seems to be spoken for by our actions.

At this point, it is a necessary facet of our economy due to American laziness and spending. Without such, a potato would cost $5.

TX35
August 30, 2006, 04:53 PM
You consider waving the US flag, on US soil looking for trouble???? I consider waving a foreign flag & putting down the country you are in (USA) looking for trouble...

up_onus
August 30, 2006, 05:07 PM
I carry concealed because im scared of bad guys....
not because im scared of anti-immigrants, muslims, japanese-irish people, or any other specific threat...
this almost seems to be racially charged?
I guess i should start gettin my stuff together for the race war?:neener:

High Planes Drifter
August 30, 2006, 05:12 PM
You consider waving the US flag, on US soil looking for trouble???? I consider waving a foreign flag & putting down the country you are in (USA) looking for trouble...
--------------------------------

Agree 100%. Apparently not everyone sees it that way; to some, flying a Mexican flag at a United States Post office is perfectly acceptable.
I think that gesture speaks volumes of the intent of those responsible.

Cousin Mike
August 30, 2006, 05:21 PM
Race war this, race war that...

An armed conflict with illegal nationals is one thing... A race war is a completely different concept. The only people seriously talking about race wars today are the same type of people who were talking (wishing and dreaming) about it 60 years ago...

Seems to me some folks just like the idea of such a "war."

Must make them feel all fuzzy inside or somethin'.

I call it wishful thinking. :rolleyes:

Phetro
August 30, 2006, 05:44 PM
We should try to stop illegal immigration, but living in a society where people are not harrassed because of their race is important also. Having a country where every hispanic looking person is stopped and asked for proof of citizenship at every corner is something to avoid too, and the racial division that would result is imo much more dangerous than illegal immigration.

They have those, actually!

...oh. Well, they happen to be the societies with only one race, but...the idea sounds good!

Seriously, we all--regardless of race--have dealt with harassment. That will likely never change, nor should free speech be abridged to try to force it to change.

And I agree, no one should be stopped and asked for papers. However, when an illegal is caught in connection with a crime, and found to be here illegally, should he not be deported?

Out with them! Enforce the current laws and all would be well!

junyo
August 30, 2006, 06:11 PM
The only reason for a "race war" is so that a group that cannot have it's way via argument or the ballot box can have it's way via force. Now, that's not to say that the minority might not be right and justified in defending their claim via force, but when the claim is based on "our land" and "our culture" it's harder to justify the imposition. Unless you're an Indian, it's not "your" land.

And the destinction between the legality/illegality of entering a country seems awful arbitrary. You crossed the Rio Grande without filling out a RS47 stroke J form and you're an enemy, fill out the form and "welcome friend"... You come here to work and be productive, and rarely get the urge to strap on some C4 and run into a mall, I don't really care how you got here. Making artificial borders and qualifications to entry seems specifically designed to disenfranchise, to let those already here pull up the ladder. And it's hard to see that as anything but racial when the debate centers around the Mexican border, and rarely includes the porous (i.e. "terrorist friendly") Canadian border. Like early gun laws which were more about disarming free blacks than really placing limits on ownership by the average person, immigration seems to have morphed from the original issue of the need to secure the borders, to a job protection scheme and a cultural/racial Cold War. Those gun laws morphed into the straightjacket we all live with now, Unintended consequences are a b*****. Maybe, just maybe, people need to dial the rhetoric back a couple of notches before we're all issued national ID cards because it's the only way to "stop the illegals".

longeyes
August 30, 2006, 06:28 PM
Race war this, race war that...

An armed conflict with illegal nationals is one thing... A race war is a completely different concept. The only people seriously talking about race wars today are the same type of people who were talking (wishing and dreaming) about it 60 years ago...

Seems to me some folks just like the idea of such a "war."

Must make them feel all fuzzy inside or somethin'.

I call it wishful thinking.

I've used the term--but NOT because I want such a thing to happen. Quite the opposite. Do I think They Who Know Better Then We wouldn't mind it happening? Yes, I do. There are people in high places who think a few eggs have to be broken to make an omelette. They figure we're the eggs; we'll see. I think we have a lawless government that is in cahoots with a lawless big business community and that, wittingly or unwittingly, these shortsighted greedy fools are encouraging not only balkanization but internecine and sanguinary conflict. I'm frankly amazed that blacks haven't resisted the rebuilding of the Gulf Coast by, largely, illegal aliens, all happening with the blessing of this government. I'm frankly amazed that the white middle-class, which has been the engine of wealth in Southern California, hasn't put its foot down over the ethnic power grab growing in these parts; I guess the sleepers will wake up when Prop. XIII is repealed to pay for the next phase of the invasion.

This is not some kind of adolescent wet dream. It is all too real. So far the instances of ethnic and racial violence are seemingly few (although a closer look at the crime blotters may cause one to revise that view: plenty of hate crime going on that's suppressed by MSM). One of these days the scale will change. The seeds are already there. And it all plays into the hands of the people who run the show.

Gun_nut
August 30, 2006, 06:38 PM
i am of some latino hispanic background here
my mom is half cuban/ half mexican and my father is europien
so i could say im half latino.. and i am totally against illegal immigrants

Cousin Mike
August 30, 2006, 06:49 PM
longeyes:

Thanks for the correction. FWIW, I didn't mean to imply that you desire a race war - your posts make it very clear that you have strong feelings about the issue, as we all do. But I do think that there are a lot of people who simply want to join up based on race and hurt other people who don't look like them...

As for this statement:


I'm frankly amazed that blacks haven't resisted the rebuilding of the Gulf Coast by, largely, illegal aliens, all happening with the blessing of this government.

We have resisted. We've complained, we've bitched, and we're still complaining and bitching - but look around! Nobody listens to black people or gives a damn about our concerns... you can see it right here on THR.

Someone says some racist sh*t... that's very OBVIOUSLY racially inspired / racially charged, whatever.

...then someone else says, "Hey, that's some pretty racist sh*t you just said there."

Then the rest of the forum chimes in with a bunch of cute comments about political correctness, and how everything is racist to black people, all we do is cry, we're a protected group, blah blah blah. It's BS, and everyone knows it, but it's easier to dismiss it than it is to hear someone else's plight.

It's easy to dismiss others as crybabies when it might mean that certain people you agree/identify with/voted for might be racist bastards. Think about it... You think Katrina would have went down the way it did 20 years ago?

Racism is coming back in a big way - people are saying things nowadays that they wouldn't have even THOUGHT 20 years ago. Life is just as segregated in most places as it was in the 60's.

It's not that we haven't complained, tried to take action, and stop the way things are going...

Nobody listens. And as long as people think idiots like Jackson and Sharpton speak for us as a whole, it'll never change.

zamboxl
August 30, 2006, 08:26 PM
wow Cousin Mike hearing a black person speak the truth like that and calling Jackson, Sharpton and the rest of those clowns the fools they are, speaks volumes of you man, I would indeed stand shoulder to shoulder with you brother.

By that statement i do not imply that, black leaders of the past, and pressent are fools, but merely that Jackson, Sharpton and their lackys are fools, at best annoying clowns that dont belong in a c rated circus.

Thek9
August 30, 2006, 08:39 PM
It's just a matter of time. This country Will be made up of a latino majority. Then followed by a Asian majority. It's a math thing. I'm not a bigot, or prejudice it's just the way it's gonna be. Evolution.

T-out

PS I did not post this to be controversial.

Panthera Tigris
August 30, 2006, 09:01 PM
I'm exposed to the black world firsthand, and most whites don't have a clue what it takes or means to grow up in that world. Not one clue. We make rash statements and generalizations and we don't know sh**.

I think the main reason Libertarians think the country would be better with no closed borders, is they have this idealistic image that everything will be better, more peaceful, and that there will be no cultural or ethnic clashes if people of all races are just allowed to come and go. And that would indeed be wonderful. But, it ain't gonna happen. People are still too wrapped up in their own culture and the differences between them to see the similiarities in all humans. And I'm not sure I'll live to see a country where that begins to happen. I hope I do, but I just don't see it at this time.

We do need to close our borders and find ways to prevent illegal people from coming in. But, how do you do that? It's not going to be done cheaply. Who's going to foot the bill?

And, we need to stop harassing Latin folks who have moved here legally. Again, I don't see an easy way to accomplish it.

Art Eatman
August 30, 2006, 09:05 PM
Some observations, from the news, from comments at places like THR, and just listening:

As near as I can tell, it is the pro-illegal Latino activists who have brought race into the issue of illegal aliens. Omitting such as the denizens of StormFront.org, I've yet to read a letter or a post or hear a conversation from or among whites that sees it as a racial issue. I do see a lot of effort expended in trying to find the words to separate citizens of Latin descent from illegals of Latin descent, and I find a repugnance for non-Latin illegals as well.

The words don't always work out as intended, as one can see from various posts in these threads here at THR.

I don't know if all of y'all read every post in every thread on this subject, but that's part of my deal in moderating. I have seen unwarranted accusations of racism--and I point out that when the only way to judge meaning is from the typed word, we all have to cut some slack. There are no facial expressions, no body language to help clarify meaning. So, unless something is patently obvious, cut slack.

And let's leave New Orleans out of this. APS would be a good place for Cousin Mike and those who are interested to start a thread about that and about the ramifications of what's going on there. (And other,similar issues.)

Nuff fer now,

Art

mordechaianiliewicz
August 30, 2006, 09:05 PM
The black and white Jew that everyone thinks is "an unusually large Mexican" steps into the fray.

Look, I've had evryone, including quite a few Mexicans think I was Hispanic. It doesn't hurt when you can habla la espanol. But I don't get my breaches twisted up in all of this based upon race.

The truth is that this is far more cultural than it is racial. You quickly begin to notice cultural assumptions when you are mixed race.

Based upon my clothing and mannerisms, and language I have been mistaken for white, black, Samoan, and Hispanic. Why? Because i look a little like all four. The one thing I haven't been identified as is Jewish. Why?

6'2" 270 lbs. curly headed men with broad shoulders don't scream "jew" to most people.

That being said, a race war isn't around the corner per se. Instead, a cultural war is around the corner. A war between those of the US, and "Aztlan". It can be stopped, but time is short.

Oh, and the racial breakdown will be most whites on U.S. side, blacks split but more on the side of America than not. Most Hispanics on La Raza's side. And a ton of all of everybody on the sidelines just trying to survive.

Autolycus
August 30, 2006, 09:23 PM
I am half Mexican. But I look a lot more Hispanic then Croatian. I see a lot of anti Mexican rhetoric and here people complain about hispanics on numerous forums. It does worry me due to the fact I am an American.

Biker
August 30, 2006, 09:28 PM
Tecumseh...

Why would "anti Mexican rhetoric" bother you if you're an American?

Biker

Autolycus
August 30, 2006, 09:31 PM
Because a lot of people cannot tell the difference between me and a mexican. So they just label us all together. Similar to what a lot of people are doing to Muslims and terrorists.

Cousin Mike
August 30, 2006, 09:33 PM
I'll definitely be checking out APS! Thanks Art.
Dually noted - Katrina talk is not on topic here.
Apologies.

Mike

zamboxl
August 30, 2006, 09:49 PM
For those of you guys talking about race wars and imigration problems, you should watch Ghost in the Shell "Astand Alone Complex" second season, i do imagine that for the old timers and animated series will be hard to swallow but it does bear a striking resemblance to our problem and just what could become of our situation, if fears are allowed to run wild.

Art Eatman
August 30, 2006, 10:00 PM
"Cultural war" is a better term, I think. Thanks, Mordechai. After all, we see Anglo sycophants in the pro-illegals camp.

Art

cassandrasdaddy
August 30, 2006, 10:02 PM
but when you hang a couple on your van paint some slogans like "did you hug your minuteman today" on it thechose to drive it through a group of angry latinos for rffect its girlish to whimper when you get the result you set out for. and making a lil video of you whimpering then gritting up real hard at the end is amusing. you go looking for a fight fight. but running then breaking bad on video after you scoot is "french".i don't sympathise with a nonwhite guy who chooses to go to a klan rally if he gets a trimming anymore than i would a klan member touring compton.
shucks i suspect some folks should be glad the folks they are jumping up in front of are ilegal, and can't afford a beef. i suspect were it not for that there would be some butt kicked

longeyes
August 30, 2006, 10:21 PM
That being said, a race war isn't around the corner per se. Instead, a cultural war is around the corner. A war between Mexico, and Aztlan. It can be stopped, but time is short.

Exactly right. This is, in essence, about culture, and the final breakdown is going to be American culture versus all those, of any racial or ethnic stripe, who put themselves in opposition to American values. That said, there is a lack of clarity about what American values constitute, and that is what all of this is bringing into focus and helping us work out.

longeyes
August 30, 2006, 10:26 PM
but when you hang a couple on your van paint some slogans like "did you hug your minuteman today" on it thechose to drive it through a group of angry latinos for rffect its girlish to whimper when you get the result you set out for.

Sorry, the dividing line is violence. There is no call for physical violence unless you are defending yourself from same. Insults are not justification for harming others physically. Aggressive, threatening behavior is off-limits. Part of the cultural problem here is lack of self-control and a sense that disputes are to be settled by physical means rather than dialogue or the law. This is the Great Divide, as far as I am concerned, between tribalism and civilization. It applies to all groups.

Cousin Mike
August 30, 2006, 10:38 PM
zamboxl: Thanks bro... FWIW, I'm not the only one. Looking forward to standing at your shoulder should we ever need to defend our country and way of life.

mordechai: VERY interesting (and intelligent, IMO) perspective - thank you for sharing it. Just one question - why would one think that any blacks would side with illegal Mexicans in a culture war in the U.S.?

We've been here in America a lot longer than other groups of people who've come here, and stayed through the worst situation in human history. We've stayed through the "Back to Africa" Marcus Garvey movement, Jack Johnson's (yes, the boxer) call for blacks to move to Mexico, free citizenship and transport to Liberia, and every other attempt to get us to flee this country. And we stayed... for a million reasons... but mainly because this is our home. We've fought for the rights we have. We've fought for this country in every single war that's ever been fought. We're as American as it's possible to be. I just don't see any significant number of blacks going against the U.S. in ANY conflict... especially a culture war with illegals right here on our own soil.

Black folks are a hell of a lot more patriotic than most people would think. Just my $0.02

cassandrasdaddy
August 30, 2006, 10:43 PM
about violence.but going looking for a fight is a cowardly form of passive aggresive stuff

crazed_ss
August 30, 2006, 10:48 PM
I heard Art or someone mention a "pro-illegal camp" and think he might have been referring to me.

I just want to clarify. I am not pro-illegal. I recognize that unchecked illegal immigration is a serious problem and something needs to be done to bring everything under control. Guest worker program, punishment for employers, more border patrol agents.. whatever. Illegals are being exploited for cheap labor.. it's almost a new form of slavery, IMO.

What I am against is the mean-spirited attitudes, inflammatory rhetoric and hate speech towards Hispanics (legal and illegal) that constantly comes up during any conversation about illegal immigration.

You guys arent gonna recruit anyone to your cause by calling people vermin, suggesting that illegals be shot on site, making fun of other people's cultures, and prophecizing about impending race wars.

Snake Eyes
August 30, 2006, 10:51 PM
This thread makes me mad. 5 pages in two days, in L&P, about a subject that has absolutley NOTHING to do with firearms or civil rights--except trampling them.

I think I've had about enough of this happy horse****. (That's right. I said HORSE ****. And I'm going to report this post to a moderator).

Biker
August 30, 2006, 10:51 PM
Cassandrasdaddy...

It could be said that a bunch of latinos marching for Mexican rights in the streets of America constitutes looking for a fight. Since when is flying Old Glory cause for violence? Your attitude is beyond understanding. And just for the benefit of the folks who would like to read your posts (like me), would you kindly use the caps key and throw in a period from time to time?
It really would help, nothing personal meant...

Biker

Snake Eyes
August 30, 2006, 10:53 PM
Well, damn. Evidently you CAN'T report your own post to a moderator. And evidently, the filth filters have been turned back on.

So much for self policing.

I still think this belongs on APS and, for the most part, is lowering the group IQ.

Molon Labe
August 30, 2006, 11:00 PM
Iím Caucasian, but my wife is 100% Chinese. She grew up in Hong Kong. She loves her AR-15. :)

crazed_ss
August 30, 2006, 11:04 PM
I took my girl shooting. She had a blast. She's a resident alien from Tijuana. We rented an AR-15 and shot my SKS. They arent allowed to have guns of military caliber in Mexico. :barf:

cassandrasdaddy
August 30, 2006, 11:05 PM
Hard to believe but i'm getting better about punctuation. Scary huh!
My beef is probaqbly less my being pro ilegal than it is that i'm against a lot (not all) of the other camp. Kinda the enemy of your enemy is your friend. I've run up against the type of folks i've seen in those videos and really enjoyed dancing with em. I've a short fuse with the folks that hate (at least let me give you a reason to hate me). I see too much of the "pack mentality" in them. They rise up though history. Unless i've sorely misread you biker you run true to the bikers i've known and you 're not one of those need a pack. And your no stranger to someone hating you for what they think they see. I'd guess like me you kinda enjoy it lean on em a lil see if they got what it takes and like watching em fold. When i see em try it with someone else, anyone else it gets my irish up. And i just can't help buying a piece of the fight.Hey the Irish love an underdog and we've fought for losing causes since who flung the chunk. You'd a laughed to see me when i was young.

There all those caps and punctuation are just for you. more there than in a year for me.Doggone High Road is gonna ruin me

mordechaianiliewicz
August 30, 2006, 11:20 PM
Sorry, I corrected my sentence to America vs. "Aztlan."

Cousin Mike, it's about the racism of the past, and the fact that many blacks will side with the Hispanics, because many will listen to what sycophants that are seen as "black leaders" tell them.

More on this later......

Biker
August 30, 2006, 11:22 PM
I'm an "underdog" guy too and I play by my own rules - never could stand a bully. Right is right and wrong is wrong. However, as an American, I'm beginning to feel like the underdog - like I'm under attack. I've no doubt that there is an agenda and when I get pushed, I push back. I'm hoping that there's a peaceful solution to this growing problem.
Thanks for making your posts easier to read - I enjoy them:)

Biker

cassandrasdaddy
August 30, 2006, 11:28 PM
When guy who goes by "Biker" succeeds in correcting my punctuation when a bunch of nuns failed for years....:what:

Cousin Mike
August 30, 2006, 11:43 PM
Mordechai: Understood. However, I don't think as many people listen to the so-called "community leaders" as some folks think. They're pretty much obsolete IMO. Sycophant is a great word, btw.. Thank heavens for google or I wouldn't know what the hell it means. :D

Snake Eyes: LOL! :p

mordechaianiliewicz
August 31, 2006, 04:31 AM
Here is what I know. You live in Ohio, and I work for a credit card company for whom many calls saying, "I work in Construction, or I worked in a steel mill, etc. come in, and I can't pay my bill."

I know you're gettin' smacked hard right now. I know many working class folks are. And we all know that a combo of outsourcing and illegal immigration (and the worker visas bringing foreign nurses, software developers, etc. in) is causing that situation. Often the next step up the ladder is into a lower paying professional job.

Because of that, many Southern whites, and blacks, and many Midwestern whites, and blacks will band together to try to stop illegal immigration. That being said, many black folks in the northeast, and left coast will support illegals because of the politics there.

I'm still contending that many blacks will come down in roughly the same #s as whites based upon their area, and surrounding demographics because whites and blacks are ultimately in the same boat here.

That being said, I think the Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton types will lead the march in support of illegals amongst the black community. Those that are paying attention will side with the whites that are being hurt. The rest will do what their told by the Democratic Party for fear that Newt Gingrich, adorned in a white hood will ride on his high horse into their house, chain them, and lead them to the plantation Hitlery Clinton likes to talk about. :barf:

Cousin Mike
August 31, 2006, 05:13 AM
...and I still can't believe she said that sh*t. :fire:

By the way, you're dead on about the construction industry at the moment. I know this hasn't been the best year for me, or a lot of other folks I know.

I've spent a little time on the east coast... they're different up there, that's for sure. I haven't been back since I was 18 or so. Even back then, the people out there just got to me - completely different than the people here... I could never get used to it out there.

It upsets me to say this, but i think you might be right. Never even considered the area politics. More of a reason to hope things never come to that point with the illegal situation.

:barf: sounds about right...

cassandrasdaddy
August 31, 2006, 09:59 AM
i believed that the anti illegal movement wouldn't devolve into another low point in american history it would be easier to support.However i just see another redux of some old ugly history. Same feelings and players different generation. There are some videos i've seen that make me fearful more of the americans than the illegals.

I think that some black folks recognition of the same face of hate and bigotry will end up bringing them in to support the immigrants in another case of common enemies

crazed_ss
August 31, 2006, 10:23 AM
i believed that the anti illegal movement wouldn't devolve into another low point in american history it would be easier to support.However i just see another redux of some old ugly history. Same feelings and players different generation. There are some videos i've seen that make me fearful more of the americans than the illegals.


Yup. Illegals might be illegal, but some of the stuff coming from the righteous Americans on the other side of this debate is just downright vile. Not something I'd want to be associated with.


I think that some black folks recognition of the same face of hate and bigotry will end up bringing them in to support the immigrants in another case of common enemies

Yup.. I'm black and this sums up my feelings exactly.

Ezekiel
August 31, 2006, 10:49 AM
The inherent self-righteous attitude of many Americans -- facing this, or any, problem -- is grotesque.

I said this in a different thread. I think it still works:

Which is why I'm getting sick of self-righteous "Americans" whining about this sort of thing.

If your ancestors -- like mine -- met the Mayflower from the shore, you can talk.

"No?" Shut the hell up.

What is good for the goose is good for the gander.

That being said, the issue here is entitlement. Nobody, I mean nobody, acts more entitled than "Americans." You want to compete? Work at Denny's for $7.50, not the $20 hourly your unskilled a$$ thinks you deserve.

Mexicans are NOT the problem. Lazy Americans drive me insane. :fire:

The United States has spent a lot of time creating "common enemies" lately. Why not at home?

Besides, based upon policy, we (government) SUPPORT all forms of immigration for cheap labor. Said folk are merely taking advantage. Illegal? Sure -- but so is not reporting that $100 won last year during an NCAA Tourney pool...

cassandrasdaddy
August 31, 2006, 10:56 AM
is that some of the video that bothers me is put on web by the sos/minute man camp.And if they can't see the poison within their own organization or seeing it can't control it thats real bad. While i don't doubt that many if not most are good folk with valid concerns and no desire to cross the line if they are not careful their movement will be taken over by theactions of their lunatic fringe.This could esult in some good folks being recast as a new generation of "good germans".i saw one tape showed one particularly unpleasant "man" who seemed most comfy accosting women. Another member of his group tried to rein him in but was unsucessful.


There is a money aspect to this that is oft overlooked. Besides the largely unaccounted millions being raised and going who knows where i'm reminded of our last venture into this type of activity many a fortune made after the japanese were sent off to the camps lots of property and buisness bought up cheap or simply absorbed .My cynical nature makes me think that often a moral smokescreen hides a more venal motive.

But also the immigrants need to ploice their ranks . All the same flaws exist in their camp as well.I'm truly glad that so far its been fairly nonviolent

(capitalization and puntuation brought to you at the request of biker. lol)

Ezekiel
August 31, 2006, 11:18 AM
While i don't doubt that many if not most are good folk with valid concerns and no desire to cross the line if they are not careful their movement will be taken over by theactions of their lunatic fringe.

Knee-jerk and short-sighted "shotgun diplomacy." :banghead:

I think that would be a bad move... :uhoh:

wingman
August 31, 2006, 12:30 PM
I still think this belongs on APS and, for the most part, is lowering the group IQ.


Disagree, uncontrolled immigration will in time effect gun ownership, sad fact
is if we continue on this path in 40 years guns will be controlled much like
British laws.

Note: When I am concerned with post or they raise my blood pressure I click
the mouse and it's gone. Just a more adult way of dealing with issues that upset you, especially on the INTERNET.

longeyes
August 31, 2006, 12:42 PM
The cases of assault I've read about have been initiated by the illegal alien side.

We keep coming back to the obvious: these people are trespassers, and trespassers tend to be unwelcome.

Minutemen are attacking helpless illegal alien women? Don't even go there. Start reading the police blotters if you want the ugly realities.

Yeah, the grand plan is to confiscate illegal alien "property." Sure. This is ironic in light of the property--in taxes--being expropriated by the illegal alien community in the U.S. on a daily basis.

This whole situation will, no doubt, affect gun ownership. It will increase it, both legally and illegally. As for our losing our gun rights by government action, you have to wonder which government that might be 40 years down the calle.

cassandrasdaddy
August 31, 2006, 01:06 PM
is that there is a video of some goon, and hes with the minutemen i don't know if hes a member, is behaving in a manner that would get him stomped. and hes mugging for the camera while doing it. and hes surrounded and backed up by a group of "good americans" who are unable or unwilling to stop him. hence the "good germans analogy.

where you doing your reading? i've seen as opposed to hear about ilegals victimized who are afraid to go to the cops.

the police blotter shows the actions of criminals and no one supports them. the goons i've seen and sadly the minute men are attracting some aren't the least bit ashamed of themselves reminiscent of germany in the 30's. it behooves the minutemen to tighten up their act . the goons alienate others and strengthen their enemy on many levels.
the pervese reallity is that they could suceed in chasing off the "nice " element and leave us just the bad guys.
and there is gonna be collateral fallout when the goons can't tell a good (legal) from a bad(illegal). unless you know of someone like a girl in another forum who asserts she can tell folks in cars going the other way at 70 mph rlelative spped are "wetbacks".
we gonna do gold stars for muslims... what symbol for the "good mexicans" have the minutemen got in mind?

Cousin Mike
August 31, 2006, 01:39 PM
Past racism or not, I see it in a different way. We're not facing the racism of the past, and as stated here there are a lot of Latino's that aren't happy with this.. What does that tell you?

I've got too much respect for what my ancestors stayed here through to go against this country. I got a brother in Iraq, right now, fighting for this country. There are Mexicans who are in our army, fighting for this country to become citizens! Not so they can send all their money back to Mexico. They love this country as much as anyone else.

And I've got too much respect for myself to join up with people who hate me (illegals), and further their agenda in this country because we've been victims of racism in this country in the past... I know racism well. And this thing with the illegal aliens, by and large, is NOT racism. It's common sense.

You want racism, crazed_ss? Walk your black self down a Mexican street in East L.A. and see how welcome you are to join anything... If you survive... And FWIW, everytime I see the "N" word in print, it's always on some little Mexican gangbangers website.. Fool yourself if you want to. These people hate you just as much as any white person 100 years ago ever did.. and to think otherwise is just fooling yourself.

This is about our country. Minimum wage is the exact same now as it was when I got my very first job at 11 years ago - but gas is 3-4x as expensive, like everything else.. This has to stop. You'd side with folks who want to turn this place into a 3rd world country, when your own countrymen are losing their jobs and having to choose between paying bills and feeding their kids?


Apples and airplanes, if you ask me. These people make a mockery of our culture comparing this crap to the civil rights movement. As black man who knows his own history, I fail to see the logic displayed here. Chalking this up to being racially motivated is just shortsighted - and any black person who would side with illegal invaders is a traitor of the highest order to his own people, his heritage, our struggle, and his country.

Get that chip off your shoulder, brother.

I'd just like to remind you that this is coming from a black man with a mexican girlfriend. I suggest anyone who wants to help turn this place into Mexico fly their ass down there and walk around for a few days... You'll kiss the ground when you come back... IF you come back.

longeyes
August 31, 2006, 01:45 PM
In Federal court in Los Angeles right now there's a case involving a group of Latino gangbangers--yeah, the gang's a pack of illegals--who were systematically targeting black people in Highland Park. Not other gangbangers, ordinary citizens whose "crime" was that they were black. The vatos had decided that there was no room for blacks there, that it was their barrio for their people only. They killed some folks. Yes, my friends, we've got ethnic cleansing right here in River City. Let's not be blind to what's really going on, just because the mainstream media dare not report the ugly truth.

cassandrasdaddy
August 31, 2006, 01:54 PM
that behavior like that is specific to one race/group?

longeyes
August 31, 2006, 01:56 PM
Of course not.

But let's address the problems where they are, not where they were.

cassandrasdaddy
August 31, 2006, 01:59 PM
that it is confined to hispanics only at the current time? specifically illegal hispanics?(and i'm gonna asssume none of the gang bangers are legal fo the sake of this discussion)

Cousin Mike
August 31, 2006, 02:00 PM
Of course not... But at the same time, I don't know of any other group randomly killing and attacking black people in the United States at this time. Blacks and Mexicans are having big problems in a lot of places... It's not just L.A. - Philadelphia comes to mind as another city that's having big problems... and Philly is almost 50% black.

And of course, anyone is welcome to walk around the west side of my city. FWIW, I don't live around the greatest neighborhood but I'm at ease amongst my neighbors.

I don't even travel 1 block west of downtown.

cassandrasdaddy
August 31, 2006, 02:10 PM
We had a problem in DC with korean merchants being warred upon at many levels , from thuggery to more subtle ways ,including picket lines manned in some cases by nation of islam guys and in others by chistian ministers. In some cases their motives are questionable

I know what you mean about where to walk . I could look out my window see the whitehouse and 2 blocks away was a dmz.

Biker
August 31, 2006, 02:12 PM
Here's to a dose of reality from Cousin Mike...

Biker

longeyes
August 31, 2006, 02:15 PM
[so you believe] that it is confined to hispanics only at the current time? specifically illegal hispanics?(and i'm gonna asssume none of the gang bangers are legal fo the sake of this discussion)

This kind of terrorism--for that is really what this is--springs out of collective hatred and racism. It's tribal and it's also political. Unfortunately, the locus of the political fervor and furor these days lies mainly in the "Reconquista" movement, fomented by radicals from the Mexican and American left and various loonytune pro-Aztlan "populists." Tell people they are oppressed and entitled enough and you prepare them for just about anything. We don't need to go from brown power to "brownshirts."

Cousin Mike
August 31, 2006, 02:18 PM
Thanks Biker... :)

I got some more reality for any brother who thinks the Mexicans are on "our" side...

Channa Cook, a teacher at the Los Angeles Center for Enriched Studies, said that even in her school, routinely regarded as one of the best in Los Angeles County, black students each year skip school on May 5 -- Cinco de Mayo -- the day when Mexicans celebrate a 19th-century military victory over France. Mexican gangs have warned in graffiti that they will shoot African Americans attending school that day.

"My first year here, I didn't believe it, but the students told me, 'No, Miss Cook, if you come to school you're going to get shot,' " said Cook, who is African American. "When I arrived at class, all the black kids had stayed home."




You can read the article from the link below...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02/20/AR2006022000976_pf.html

I'm tellin' ya _ss, these folks ain't our friends... I'm really going to ask you, as a black man, and an American... to rethink your position on this.

cassandrasdaddy
August 31, 2006, 02:27 PM
that thinga are different on the west coast than here. then again i live in sticks now might be part of it

Biker
August 31, 2006, 02:32 PM
Hopefully this isn't jacking the thread...


http://www.reddingnewsreview.com/newspages/2006newspages/black_activist_plans_spanish_law_06_09100058.htm

Biker

TX35
August 31, 2006, 02:35 PM
Well put Cousin Mike , well put.....

Ezekiel
August 31, 2006, 02:51 PM
This is about our country. Minimum wage is the exact same now as it was when I got my very first job at 11 years ago - but gas is 3-4x as expensive, like everything else.. This has to stop. You'd side with folks who want to turn this place into a 3rd world country, when your own countrymen are losing their jobs and having to choose between paying bills and feeding their kids?

You're damned right this is about our country, but you've not identified the cause, you've pointed out a symptom.

Countrymen are losing jobs because they feel entitled to them and refuse to move or accept lower wages. Such is NOT "free enterprise" nor is it uber "American." (Get some skills!)

What, exactly, do you mean by 3rd World Country? Do you really think there is a cohesive and recognized PLAN here? That's tin-foil hat country, friend. This is nothing beyond rabble kicking at the King's gates because the king has been a self-righteous ass of an oppressor due to entitlement.

You're mad because folks are having to choose between bills or food? Because they refuse to work for minimum wage? Exactly whose fault is that? This isn't complex: don't have kids and/or cut out the big screen television that is used as a screening room for soap operas. Can't pay for gas? "Take the bus."

I respect an illegal immigrant, living with 12 others, who comes here and holds a low-wage job far more then your average trailer-trash welfare queen, with five kids, who gets subsidized cable TV and Internet for "educational purposes." Frankly, there are gazillions(tm) more "Americans" sucking the life out of this nation then any percentage of illegal immigration. If citizens would actually work, there'd be no jobs for illegals.

Illegal immigration is a symptom, American ENTITLEMENT (world wide) is the disease. :banghead:

Biker
August 31, 2006, 03:03 PM
Well then, we should, at the *minimum*, treat the symptoms. And BTW, if anyone deserves to suck off the American system, is is an...*American*.

Biker;)

Cousin Mike
August 31, 2006, 03:03 PM
Countrymen are losing jobs because they feel entitled to them and refuse to move or accept lower wages. Such is NOT "free enterprise" nor is it uber "American." (Get some skills!)


We're a hell of a lot more entitled to jobs in our own country than people who illegally cross our borders. You would debate that?

What, exactly, do you mean by 3rd World Country?

Mexico... or any other country south of this border sending their people up here by the millions to take our jobs and send American money back to their home countries.

That's tin foil hat country, friend.

:rolleyes: Uhhh okay...

You're mad because folks are having to choose between bills or food? Because they refuse to work for minimum wage? Exactly whose fault is that?

No... I'm mad that the minimum wage has not risen in over 10 years because the illegals are working for $3 an hour, and Americans cannot compete... It's not about refusing to work for minimum wage... It's about the minimum wage being no longer sufficient to support Americans. Illegals are working for far less than minimum wage... Americans can't live on $3.00 an hour... A mexican can live like a king on those wages once the money is transferred... Especially with 12 people making the same wage, cash, everyday living in the same house. They are cheating the system.

Dude, where the HELL have you been these last 10 years?!?! :scrutiny:

This isn't complex: don't have kids and/or cut out the big screen television that is used as a screening room for soap operas. Can't pay for gas? "Take the bus."


Wow... you're really a shining light of brilliance on an otherwise dim conversation... :D

Let me get this straight... We're supposed to not have children, and ride the bus, because illegals are ruining our economy and way of life?

I see... :rolleyes:

respect an illegal immigrant, living with 12 others, who comes here and holds a low-wage job far more then your average trailer-trash welfare queen, with five kids, who gets subsidized cable TV and Internet for "educational purposes." Frankly, there are gazillions(tm) more "Americans" sucking the life out of this nation then any percentage of illegal immigration. If citizens would actually work, there'd be no jobs for illegals.

Illegal immigration is a symptom, American ENTITLEMENT (world wide) is the disease.

I don't respect anyone who would live like an animal, and do so only for the expressed purpose of exploiting a nation and it's dollar value before heading home having cheated our system to better themselves... But then again, I love my country and it's people.

YMMV. :D

Smells like somebody is an employer of illegals to me... You offer the same excuses as the big business lobbies.

Anyone else smell that?

longeyes
August 31, 2006, 03:17 PM
America began changing, radically, back in '65: Viet Nam, LBJ's Great Society, Ted Kennedy's "immigration reform" bill. The rest is history. The "counter-culture" turned into the Establishment and now run most of the "arts and letters" fields, from entertainment to media to law to education. Fortunately, this nation has a lot of creative talent and hard-work citizens who have kept plugging away, but what we are seeing is the Great Inertia that began in '65 finally beginning to slow down the American Dynamo. No wonder we are all increasingly frustrated and angry.

Welfare has proven ultimately toxic to everyone who's come near it. That means those who take it and those who pay for it. Those who have benefited from it most are the government worker class, who have managed to turn it into a perpetual upper-middle-class gig that the rest of us have to subsidize.

Interesting how just when we were on the verge of eliminating practically all poverty and lifting most Americans into the middle-class, including blacks, Someone Up There felt the need to start importing more poverty. Twenty-five years later we have a vast new welfare class, both takers and givers. And don't think the 12 Mexicans living in one house aren't getting government subsidies. The "hard-working" illegal Mexicans have plenty of dependents eating from the public trough, enough to cost my state over $10 billion a year (and counting.)

Ezekiel
August 31, 2006, 03:23 PM
We're a hell of a lot more entitled to jobs in our own country than people who illegally cross our borders. You would debate that?

Hell yes, because the jobs are there: self-righteous and indignant "Americans" just refuse to work them. There is your issue, not folks who will actually WORK said jobs.

Mexico... or any other country south of this border sending their people up here by the millions to take our jobs and send American money back to their home countries.

That doesn't make them 3rd World Countries, that makes them pretty ingenious. Our job? "Compete." You know, "skills?" Perhaps some level of ingenuity that makes American workers better then "cheap labor?"

If an American worker's level of talent is such that he can be readily replaced by a non-English speaking immigrant (legal or no), the issue is with the American worker.

No... I'm mad that the minimum wage has not risen in over 10 years because the illegals are working for $3 an hour

That's not the reason [for the lack of wage hike]. Heck, were your analysis true, it could be readily argued that "cheap labor" has reset what the REAL minimum wage actually is for non-skilled labor and folks should be damned happy for what they get. I know I'm not interested in paying GED-level work talent what the "approved" wage is, now.

It's not about refusing to work for minimum wage... It's about the minimum wage being no longer sufficient to support Americans. Illegals are working for far less than minimum wage... Americans can't live on $3.00 an hour...

The minumum wage is no longer sufficient due to our debtor society, not inherently because of the amount of wages brought in. America created this problem. In fact, do you not find it curious that -- as YOU say -- illegals can readily live on $3 hourly but "Americans" cannot? I think such says something about the Americans, not the other way around.

Let me get this straight... We're supposed to not have children, and ride the bus, because illegals are ruining our economy and way of life?

Children are NOT an entitlement. (In fact, most Americans should decidedly NOT reproduce.) In addition, illegals are what, specifically, keep this economy afloat for these "poor types" who desire "big families" that you appear to be defending. No illegals and a potato will cost $5. So, hell yes, pretty please, with sugar on top: Ride the bus.

I don't respect anyone who would live like an animal

Ah yes, "the truth comes out." :rolleyes:

But then again, I love my country and it's people.

Then, as they say in the vernacular, they/we should "nut up," accept the full responsibility for causing these issues -- as I do/have/will -- and get some skills to overcome them. That is the only REAL answer.

longeyes
August 31, 2006, 03:35 PM
You know, Ezekiel, you are right. Americans are fools. Maybe after WW II we should have done what the Romans did: turned all of the defeated into slave-workers and demanded tribute. Maybe instead of building up the rest of the world economically, spreading our values and our technology, we should have made sure we raked in all the wealth possible. Maybe right now, we should be playing a game of nuclear blackmail with most of the world, not paying for the West's military expenses. Yeah, you're right, Americans are stupid.

Most Americans shouldn't reproduce? But Mexicans should, profligately--and send the stupid Americans the bill?

The problem with capitalism and free markets is that the vitally important component of values is overlooked. Yeah, we owe our own citizens our support first, because we share the same values and culture and are the same community. When has Mexico ever come to our aid? We owe them nothing, and most Americans get that, even if the elites, who profit from the cheap labor and the destruction of our middle-class, do not.

Keep preaching your gospel, Ezekiel. A reckoning is coming.

Ezekiel
August 31, 2006, 03:37 PM
Keep preaching your gospel, Ezekiel. A reckoning is coming.

I'm brown and speak Spanish. :neener:

ramis
August 31, 2006, 03:43 PM
I respect an illegal immigrant, living with 12 others, who comes here and holds a low-wage job far more then your average trailer-trash welfare queen, with five kids, who gets subsidized cable TV and Internet for "educational purposes." Frankly, there are gazillions(tm) more "Americans" sucking the life out of this nation then any percentage of illegal immigration. If citizens would actually work, there'd be no jobs for illegals.

I'm all for getting rid of the welfare state! Where do I sign up? How about Social Security too while we are at it?

A lot of people in America are lazy, but our welfare state enables them be lazy. Lazy American's = cheap Latino labor.

I'm not Hispanic. I work with a several of guys that are Honduran. They work hard and show to work on time. One guy speaks English and the rest can only say yes or no. I don't know if they are here legally or not. I have no problem with them. But when 11-30 million(whatever the real number is) people come into a country with a culture completely different from there own, there is going to be problems.

ramis

edit: IBTL :D

Ezekiel
August 31, 2006, 03:46 PM
A lot of people in America are lazy, but our welfare state enables them be lazy. Lazy American's = cheap Latino labor.

BINGO! :D

Okay folks, we have a Bingo, let's roll right into a blackout...

longeyes
August 31, 2006, 03:49 PM
I'm brown and speak Spanish.

No, you're kidding. Yeah, I figured. I'm white and I speak Italian. So what?

Here's the thing: if you live in America, you should be for America first, you should pull for your fellows Americans, and try to help solve the problems that all Americans share. You've got to decide if you're an American or if you're something else. It's all the people wavering about the "something else" that is getting people riled up.

Blacks have a right to bitch about how they've been disproportionately screwed-over since illegal immigration began accelerating twenty years ago. I blame our government for this: they have tolerated lawbreaking by our businesses for the sake of the holy buck.

Cousin Mike
August 31, 2006, 03:52 PM
Ezekiel:

There is just so much flawed, backwards logic in that post, I don't even have the energy to debate it... But I'm going to anyways. You're SO far on the wrong side of this argument that it would almost be funny... if you didn't really believe the things you are saying...

I noticed that the one thing you didn't argue was the assumption that you employ illegals..

First off...

Children are NOT an entitlement. (In fact, most Americans should decidedly NOT reproduce.)

Who the HELL do you think you are? That statement is almost so Nazi-ish in sentiment that I won't even touch it. You're starting to sound like a nutcase.


self-righteous and indignant "Americans" just refuse to work them. There is your issue, not folks who will actually WORK said jobs.


You're wrong again... whatta surprise there.

Americans with self respect and bills to pay do not refuse to work. Said Americans refuse, however, to work for $3 an hour, and I have a hard time blaming them. No American can support themselves, let alone a family, on $3 an hour... It's not about refusing to work. It's about refusing to make a slave of yourself to make some jackass business owner rich, while not being able to feed yourself at the same time. These employers are exploiting the Mexicans just as much as they are exploiting Americans... and it's sad to see someone defend such a practice, no matter what reasons or excuses you give for your opinions.

It shows just how much you're out of touch with about 94% of America. It's becoming very obvious to me that you're one of the business owners I'm speaking of. No one else would have such an opinion, I'm convinced.


"Compete." You know, "skills?" Perhaps some level of ingenuity that makes American workers better then "cheap labor?"

If an American workers level of talent is such that he can be readily replaced by a non-English speaking immigrant (legal or no), the issue is with the American worker.



Wrong again. It's the issue of an emplyer who is willing to sell out his own countrymen for cheap labor, so he can fill his own pockets with the money he saves not having to pay an American worker what he is worth... It's about greed and corruption. You simply have the most elitist view I have ever come across.. and it's somewhat baffling.

I think anyone that works in my field would tell you that these people are FAR from skilled. They also hurt themselves more often because of failure to read/speak the language, therefore sucking more money out of the economy when we have to nurse them back to health.. In our hospitals... Where they get free healthcare.

Hell... I don't have free health care. I was born here.
Nothing wrong with that either though in your opinion... right?

That's not the reason. Heck, were your analysis true, it could be readily argued that "cheap labor" has reset what the REAL minimum wage actually is for non-skilled labor and folks should be damned happy for what they get. I know I'm not interested in paying GED-level work talent what the "approved" wage is, now.

GED- work level talent? So someone who was raised and born here, but didn't finish highschool - is less knowledgeable than someone who can't even speak the language?

I'm afraid you've exposed yourself, my friend... YOU are the problem. The criminal employer who values nothing more than the almighty dollar. YOU are what is wrong with this country. Not it's citizens.

illegals can readily live on $3 hourly but "Americans" cannot? I think such says something about the Americans, not the other way around.


I think it says something about the value of the American dollar compared to 3rd world currency. Other than that, it says nothing.

FWIW, If I worked 12 hour days, for $3 an hour, and was paid cash under the table, that's $36 per day... But if I'm living with 12 other people, making that kind of money - cash - everyday... That's $432 per day, CASH, coming into my home... ON TOP OF GOVERNMENT AID!

If I live in a sh*thole apt., that cost less per month than what is coming into the house per day... well... yeah, that does say something. It says illegals are willing to exploit the system in ways that Americans are not. It means they will live in ways that Americans will not. And it means that employers like you are selling your country to Mexico... for cheap, at that.

Your logic is incredible.

Then, as they say in the vernacular, they/we should "nut up," accept the full responsibility for causing these issues -- as I do/have/will -- and get some skills to overcome them. That is the only REAL answer.

I never knew that "nutting up" was aquiring skills, education and training, only to be paid less than what you're worth by some criminal employer. I just went in thousands of dollars of debt to complete trade school and learn carpentry. And you'd advocate that I should work for minimum wage, when going salary for someone in my profession is $20 an hour???

You're crazy. That's all there is to it.

I have nothing else to say to you about this. Your way of thinking is so far beyond repair that it's not even worth discussing. You're wrong. And if you hire illegals, you're just as much of a problem as they are to this country.

Ezekiel
August 31, 2006, 03:54 PM
Here's the thing: if you live in America, you should be for America first, you should pull for your fellows Americans, and try to help solve the problems that all Americans share.

"Concur."

It's just that we are doing it all wrong.

Illegal immigration is a symptom and the Mexican border CANNOT be controlled.

Fix the problem.

The problem is HERE. :banghead:

Cousin Mike
August 31, 2006, 04:01 PM
Also, the fact that you are a man of color, willing to exploit other people of color, makes you all the more worse of a human being.

:barf:

Ezekiel
August 31, 2006, 04:09 PM
Who the HELL do you think you are? That statement is almost so Nazi-ish in sentiment that I won't even touch it. You're starting to sound like a nutcase.

If you cannot feed them or take care of them...

Americans with self respect and bills to pay do not refuse to work. Said Americans refuse, however, to work for $3 an hour, and I have a hard time blaming them.

Do you see how those two sentences are in direct contradiction?

It's about refusing to make a slave of yourself to make some jackass business owner rich, while not being able to feed yourself at the same time.

Then get a different job. This isn't difficult. Oh wait, we're going back to that "refusing to work" thing again...

It's becoming very obvious to me that you're one of the business owners I'm speaking of. No one else would have such an opinion, I'm convinced.

"Please," you're merely advertising an inability to come up with credible theories.

I think anyone that works in my field would tell you that these people are FAR from skilled.

(sigh) They're obviously skilled enough to replace -- directly -- loads of trade labor. Is that what frightens you?

GED- work level talent? So someone who was raised and born here, but didn't finish highschool - is less knowledgeable than someone who can't even speak the language?

Often, such is the case.

Your logic is incredible.

I appreciate your kind analysis.

I just went in thousands of dollars of debt to complete trade school and learn carpenty. And you'd advocate that I should work for minimum wage, when going salary for someone in my profession is $20 an hour???

Again, the truth comes out. (sigh) Fear, nothing more.

Is someone paying you $20 hourly? No? Then such is NOT the going rate. "You chose the wrong profession, my friend." (Not that I have issues with carpentry, two of my grandparents were carpenters.)

There'd be less competition in, say, "Rocket Science."

I have nothing else to say to you about this. Your way of thinking is so far beyond repair that it's not even worth discussing. You're wrong.

Taking your ball and going home? How disappointing.

I did read EVERY word you've said and have no issue with your opinions: we just disagree.

Ezekiel
August 31, 2006, 04:11 PM
Also, the fact that you are a man of color, willing to exploit other people of color, makes you all the more worse of a human being.

Ooohhh, go to the "color card."

(sigh) I've just spent time indicating that I valued your opinion, and you have to screw everything all up.

Are we just a tiny bit threatened? :evil:

Your assumptions are worse then your analysis.

Correia
August 31, 2006, 04:15 PM
Well that was certainly getting ugly.

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