(OH) Customer In Bar Charged With Shooting Would-Be Robber


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Drizzt
May 9, 2003, 02:11 PM
Customer In Bar Charged With Shooting Would-Be Robber

2 hours, 11 minutes ago Add Local - WLWT ChannelCincinnati.com to My Yahoo!


Two young men allegedly tried to rob a bar late Thursday, but the attempt ended when one of the bar's customers shot one of the robbers, according to police.

The shooting happened just after 11 p.m. at Junkers Tavern on Langland Avenue in Northside, WLWT Eyewitness News 5 reported.

Police said Joseph Person and Demico Hester, both 18, came into the bar armed with handguns.

According to police reports, Person pointed a gun at a 68-year-old woman who was tending bar and said, "This is robbery. Nobody move. Give us the (expletive) money."

Moments later, bar customer Harold McKinney, 54, shot Person in the head, police said.

Person was taken to a local hospital. The extent of his injuries is not known.

Hester allegedly hid in the back of the bar until police found and arrested him.

Person is charged with two counts of aggravated robbery, and Hester is charged with one count of aggravated robbery.

McKinney, who is a member of the Northside Citizens On Patrol, is charged with having a weapon inside a liquor establishment and felonious assault.

Additional details are not available.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=410&ncid=410&e=1&u=/ibsys/20030509/lo_wlwt/1611208

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El Tejon
May 9, 2003, 02:22 PM
I was going to say something about Problem #2 but I know from the Internet that it does not exist.:uhoh:

Henry Bowman
May 9, 2003, 04:25 PM
The radio report I heard this morning said that the good guy was also being charged with CCW. Seems dumb to do here in Hamilton County when the liquor establishment charge would be less controversial and easy to prove.

BTW- from my office window I can see a guy threatening to jump from a bridge into the Ohio River. Cops everywhere. No word on whether he walked from the Ohio side or the KY side.

Shaggy
May 9, 2003, 07:44 PM
Unbelievable. A guy foils a robbery and possibly saved some lives and the cops arrest him. I would love to sit on that grand jury. :fire: I'd indict the prosecuter for trying to bring the case.

Geech
May 9, 2003, 07:48 PM
What's Problem #2?

El Tejon
May 9, 2003, 08:07 PM
Shaggy, not unbelievable at all. It happens every day. Not all states have grand juries. Some are information states.

Geech, Problem #1 is the threat in front of you. Problem #2 is what happens next, criminal/civil/administrative. It is widely believe among the gun culture, even here on THR, that if you use your deadly weapon against a fellow human being that you will be treated as a hero. As you can see, that is not always the case.:uhoh:

Geech
May 9, 2003, 08:58 PM
I see, thanks.

Standing Wolf
May 9, 2003, 09:16 PM
McKinney, who is a member of the Northside Citizens On Patrol, is charged with having a weapon inside a liquor establishment and felonious assault.

He should be given a civic salutation for valor and good citizenship, not an orange jump suit.

TallPine
May 9, 2003, 09:25 PM
So ... it is only okay to bring a weapon into a liqour establishment if you are planning on robbing the place ...?

(Guess I shouldn't have eaten those mushrooms)

jsalcedo
May 9, 2003, 09:39 PM
I know at least here in Texas a bar owner, employee or agent of can get around the 51% rule and carry or use a gun in a place that serves alcohol.

Hopefully the same would be true for Ohio and the bar owner can claim Mkinny was acting or working on his behalf.

Nightfall
May 9, 2003, 11:25 PM
But, but, I thought gun laws banning carry in bars and everywhere else the gov't can get away with was for our protection?! I thought someone with a gun around liquor will pull it out and start killing people (especially kids!)... was I lied to by the leftists?! :rolleyes:

Give this man a medal and all the ammo he wants. Tar and feather anybody involved with prosecuting this good citizen. :fire:

Everyone pushing gun control say they want to fight crime, but then they push laws that punish anybody who defends the lives of those around them, and stops violent crimes in progress. This makes me physically ill. :mad:

Desertdog
May 10, 2003, 08:22 PM
I hope this guy has enough money to make a 2nd Amendment case out of this.

Robbery attempt was not a joke
http://www.cincypost.com/2003/05/09/subrob050903.html
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Roy Wood
Post staff reporter

Todman Emmons initially thought it was a joke when two men came into Junkers Tavern in Northside late Thursday night wearing disguises.
"It was a like a scene out of 'Scary Movie,'" a spoof of horrorfilms, said Emmons.

Within a few seconds, however, one of the men was pointing a gun in Emmons' face and grabbing $16 off the bar while the other gunman ran behind the bar trying to get money from the cash register.

About that time a customer sitting on the barstool next to Emmons pulled out a handgun and shot the nearest robber in the head.

"The bullet went right past the back of my head," said Emmons, 39, owner of a remodeling business. "I'm still shaken up."

Emmons described Junkers Tavern, at 4356 Langland Ave., as "like Cheers but a little kookier."

He said he and a friend helped restrain the wounded gunman until police arrived. Despite his injury the robber continued to try to escape, Emmons said.

The SWAT team was called in to flush out the second robber, who hid in a heat shaft.

Cincinnati police said Joseph Person, 18 of Blair Street, Walnut Hills, was charged with two counts of aggravated robbery.

University Hospital officials said Person was in critical condition early this morning.

Person was out of jail on bond on disorderly conduct charges stemming from separate incidents May 2 andMarch 20.

Demeico Hester, also 18, of Madison Road in Madisonville is charged with one count of aggravated robbery. Hester has a past cocaine trafficking conviction.

The bar patron, Harold McKinney, 54, of Chase Avenue in Northside, was charged with felonious assault and having weapons in a liquor establishment.

As part of the group, McKinney has no special rights to carry a firearm, and, as part of the group's agreement with police, is not to carry weapons while on patrol for the group, said police spokesman Lt. Anthony Carter.

His status Thursday night with regard to the Citizens on Patrol is being investigated, Carter said.

Drizzt
May 12, 2003, 12:43 PM
Evidently, Harold is a poster over on FreeRepublic...


Everyone, Thanks for the kind words and the support of all the Freepers.

I was just released on bond ( after three days) and await the findings of a grand jury on May 19, 2003. The Grand Jury will then decide to either press for a indictment, reduce the charges or dismiss the the charges at that time

I have had numerous offers for legal assistance and huge support from the Community here in Cincinnati.

Also for the record, the Cincinnati Police officers and the Hamilton County Deputies are some of the finest people I have had the privilidge to know. They gave me support and assistance above and beyond the call of duty.

Incidentally, the robbers threatned everyone in the bar not just the barmaid. I fired only after the robber held a gun to another patrons head and stated "I'm going to blow your f**kin brains out!"

Evil prospers when good men do nothing!

)PS, Should anyone wish to freep the news media (the Cincinnati Enquirer) with a deluge of email supporting a Freeper........

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/908571/posts

ImJustRick
May 12, 2003, 02:09 PM
It sounds like a joke: Guy walks into a bar. Bar gets held up by two gunmen. Guy pulls out a piece and shoots one of the stick-up men, and gets sent to jail for felonious assault!

Here's the link. (http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2003/05/10/loc_shooting10.html)

And for those of you who don't want to click:

Ordinarily, the more than 500 members of the Citizens on Patrol Program walk the streets of 21 Cincinnati neighborhoods on the lookout for crime, carrying nothing more than a police radio and a cell phone.

Thursday night, at a Northside bar, one of those patrol members, 54-year-old Harold McKinney, found some crime. And he was carrying a semiautomatic pistol.

Police say McKinney shot an 18-year-old Walnut Hills man, Joseph Person, while Person and DeMeico Hester, 18, also of Walnut Hills, were attempting an armed robbery of Junker's Tavern on Langland Avenue shortly after 11 p.m.

Person was shot in the head and remained in critical condition Friday afternoon at University Hospital. Hester, police said, fled the bar after his partner was shot. He was found later hiding in the heating shaft of a coin laundry next door. Person was charged with two counts of aggravated robbery. Hester was charged with one count of aggravated robbery.

But police also charged McKinney with felonious assault and carrying a weapon inside a tavern. He remains in the Hamilton County Justice Center on no bond. He will be arraigned at 9 a.m. today in Hamilton County Municipal Court.

Police said Friday that COPP members are told plainly that they are never to carry weapons and to never intervene in a crime in progress.

"When he did that, he was not a member of COPP,'' said Officer Eric Franz, who trains COPP members in how to patrol their neighborhoods. "He was just a guy in a bar.''

All the COPP recruits are told "over and over again'' that they are not to try to stop criminals themselves: They are supposed to call the police.

The motto of the COPP program is straightforward: "See it, hear it, report it.''

COPP volunteers go through a 20-hour training program that includes 12 hours of classroom work and eight hours of "ride-alongs" with Cincinnati police officers.

Franz said he does not know McKinney well but said he remembers him going through the training.

"I don't know what this guy was thinking," Franz said.

"Whatever he did, he did on his own. It has nothing to do with what has been a successful program. These people have been our eyes and ears."

Thursday night, McKinney was one of a handful of patrons in the bar when two men in hoods that hid their faces walked in waving handguns.

One of them, according to witnesses, pointed a gun at a 68-year-old woman who was tending bar and shouted, "This is a robbery. Nobody move.''

Todman Emmons, 39, of Northside was standing at the bar talking to his roommate and McKinney when the two gunmen entered.

At first, he said, he thought it was a joke, but it became very real when one of the men wheeled around and pointed a gun directly in his face.

"It was all over real quick,'' Emmons said. "The one guy was pointing a gun at me and the other guy was behind the bar, trying to open the register. Then, Hal (McKinney) pulls his gun and shoots.''

Emmons and his roommate held the wounded man on the floor of the bar until police arrived minutes later. Police found the $16 one of the robbers had taken off the bar.

Emmons said he knew McKinney was a member of the neighborhood's citizen patrol. "He's always been a real good member of the community,'' he said.

He has mixed feeling about what transpired at Junker's.

If the armed robbers hadn't been stopped, Emmons said, "a lot of innocent people might have been hurt. It could have been a whole lot worse than it was.

"I can't condone what (McKinney) did,'' he said, "but I can't condemn it either.''

Baba Louie
May 12, 2003, 02:24 PM
Interesting,

Same thing happened here in LV a while back, except it was an off-duty officer (w/ BUG) who shot it out with the bad guy (officer got hit several times w/ a .40 S&W during the melee)...

Perp down and out.

Hero comes out of hospital OK. Grateful city and Bar patrons.
The band playing at the bar that night happened to be a couple of other cops who had several of their buddies in the crowd. Wrong night to rob THAT bar.

Officer said he wasn't gonna do anything but be a witness until the bad guy decided to get serious.

Hero here, Locked up there.

While it might be interesting to speculate about the bar shooting described above by a non-LEO, why bother? Shouldn't have a gun anywhere booze can mix into your blood, I've been told and I believe.

Adios

MJRW
May 12, 2003, 02:40 PM
Its a good thing that law preventing handguns from being in bars is there. Otherwise those two robbers would have been armed....

TarpleyG
May 12, 2003, 02:42 PM
The SWAT team was called in to flush out the second robber, who hid in a heat shaft.
Is SWAT needed for everything nowadays or what?

GT

Don Gwinn
May 12, 2003, 03:51 PM
Probably not, but if you have a SWAT team, and you have a desperate armed suspect hiding out in a building that has to be cleared, the tumblers probably fall into place pretty easily. Better SWAT than the patrol cops. They clear buildings for a living, right?

I found it interesting that there's a reference to the COP group to which the shooter belongs at the end of the story, but before it was introduced. A simple mistake, but it might mean serious editing was done at the last minute.
Or not, of course.

cordex
May 12, 2003, 03:57 PM
Is SWAT needed for everything nowadays or what?
*shrug*
If you're a regular-Joe beat cop who maybe forgot to put on his Kevlar that morning, and you arrive at the scene of an armed robbery with one suspect shot and still fighting and the other holed up somewhere, are you going to shrug and risk your rear-end trying to pull an armed attacker from his hideyhole, or are you going to call dispatch and ask them to pretty, pretty please send the big black van loaded with men who get paid to play with people who want to shoot back.

If you've got 'em and there's a situation that can wait for them to get together and they're better equipped to handle whatever is going on, I say use 'em.

I know, sometimes it seems like a doctor doing a nurse's duty, but if the doctor is available, why shouldn't he pull a splinter?

Ed Brunner
May 12, 2003, 05:06 PM
WOW!

Erik
May 12, 2003, 05:14 PM
Carrying without a permit, if that is the case, I can see.

Felonious assault? Nope.

Well, maybe if we're talking a suburb of Cincinatti, England. ;)

And who cares if he's in the neighborhood watch or not? Like that makes a difference one way or another.

Erik
May 12, 2003, 05:32 PM
"Is SWAT needed for everything nowadays or what?"

If not for responding to a high-risk, armed and dangerous, just commited an agravated felony, and is likely feeling pretty desperate guy holed-up subsequent to a shooting then for what?

answerguy
May 12, 2003, 05:39 PM
shot the nearest robber in the head.

and

He said he and a friend helped restrain the wounded gunman

They had to restrain the bad guy who had a bullet in his head?

faustulus
May 12, 2003, 05:52 PM
"I can't condone what (McKinney) did,'' he said, "but I can't condemn it either.''

And that is why we will lose.

Standing Wolf
May 12, 2003, 06:32 PM
"I can't condone what (McKinney) did,'' he said, "but I can't condemn it either.''

I not only condone what he did, I condemn anyone who'd even consider arresting and prosecuting him.

tyme
May 12, 2003, 06:38 PM
3 threads merged

Ebbtide
May 12, 2003, 07:03 PM
Can you see what we (Ohioians) are trying to change!!!

An off duty cop did the same thing in Cleveland a few years ago. As I recall he got some paid administrative leave until an old law about cops not being able to carry off-duty could be changed.

And now considering the backlash we will have from the CWRU "hostage situation" we had on Friday (http://www.stamfordadvocate.com/news/nationworld/ats-ap_top13may10,0,3128726.story?coll=sns-newsnation-headlines) we are going to need help to get the current legislation to pass, not to mention the pending Ohio Supreme Court due this Fall.

:banghead: :cuss: :cuss:

Hal
May 12, 2003, 07:22 PM
If the armed robbers hadn't been stopped, Emmons said, "a lot of innocent people might have been hurt. It could have been a whole lot worse than it was.

"I can't condone what (McKinney) did,'' he said, "but I can't condemn it either.''

***!?!

It sounds like McKinney saved this guy's life,,,,and he can't condone it?

That creep Emmons is a real piece of work.

I don't know how anyone else feels, but he's worse than the 2 robbers in my book. I expect bad guys to be bad guys. You'd think Emmons would have the class, or be a tiny bit grateful,, to,, at the very least keep his trap shut.

jerk!!


Anyhow,,,
Wonder how much more there is to this story. Here's another link about McKinney
http://216.239.39.104/search?q=cache:ZeXzsDPTHe8C:enquirer.com/editions/2003/01/19/loc_bronson19.html+crime+map+Walnut+Hills+ohio&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

"Hal McKinney of Northside said property values are sinking like homeowners' hopes. One house dropped from $90,000 to $43,000. Another fell from $80,000 to $30,000. "Crack rats" have shot at him and threatened to torch his home. "Two years ago, I was one of those people who didn't care," he says. "I had no concept."
sounds like the same guy.

pytron
May 12, 2003, 07:35 PM
Is there anything we can do in this case? Deluge the district attorney to have them drop the case? I know there are a lot of THRers who would be more than happy to make a phone call, send a letter, or send an e-mail expressing their disgust.

Please let us know.
-Pytron

Coronach
May 13, 2003, 01:28 AM
Well, I know zilch about Hamilton County, but it sounds to me like this is whats going on (assuming its all on the up and up, and I've seen nothing to the contrary):

1. The Good Guy is gonna eat two charges, one for carrying in a bar and the other for CCW. The law is pretty plain (and stupid) about those. This is why there are bills going through the Legislature right now, and a case before the OSC. :fire:

2. Since this is a shooting, and there are at least two sustainable charges on the Good Guy, its going to go to the grand jury, where it will probably true bill on the CCW and Liquor Establishment charges, and no bill on the assault charge(s). Thats a guess. Actual lawyers would, of course, know more. Before anyone gets all hot and bothered about the assault charges, it is fairly routine for police-involved shootings to be handled the same way. Goose, Gander.

I hope he gets through this OK. It sounds like he did good, and that the cops are treating him as best they can. It would be nice if the prosecutor were to not press the issue on the CCW and the Liquor Establishment bits, but...well, he's an elected official. Blame him. I do.

Ehenz:
An off duty cop did the same thing in Cleveland a few years ago. As I recall he got some paid administrative leave until an old law about cops not being able to carry off-duty could be changed.Uhm...uh...what? I'll call BS on this, since the Ohio Code and the Ohio Revised Code both allow off-duty officers to carry. So, unless "a few years ago" was the 1800s, I think thats incorrect. Besides, putting someone on paid admin leave isn't going to make a CCW felony charge go away.

Now, as to SWAT:

You have an armed robber, in an enclosed building. You have all of the patrons outside, so there is no danger of a hostage situation. Do you:

1. Burst in like Elliot Ness with a group of whichever patrol officers showed up on scene, not trained as a unit or heavily versed in large-group teamwork in building clearance, and armed with only handguns and possibly a pump shotty or two, with no floorplan for the building and no idea where he may be beyond 'inside', so that you're essentially just bumbling around in the dark until you find him and probably end up shooting him

or

2. Hold the scene until the trained ninjas- the guys who do this every day, the guys who are geared up for the task- show up, complete with negotiators? So that way everything sloooooows waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay doooooooooooooooooooooooooown and everyone has a chance to calm down, think clearly, start to communicate, get a floorplan for the building, and (if negotiation fails) you actually have a real, honest to God plan for taking this guy alive?

I mean...this is the board that is generally against door kicking and general gestapo tactics. Truly, damned if you do, damned if you don't. :rolleyes:

Mike

El Tejon
May 13, 2003, 07:53 AM
Cor, but don't the police exist to protect us helpless gunowners?

You act as if the purpose of the police is to investigate crime and then report to the prosecutor. That's not what we learned on teevee.:uhoh:

mini14jac
May 13, 2003, 08:29 AM
ElTejon wrote:
It is widely believe among the gun culture, even here on THR, that if you use your deadly weapon against a fellow human being that you will be treated as a hero. As you can see, that is not always the case.

I don't think I agree with that statement.
It has been widely discussed here before, that if you use your CCW, and you are lucky enough to not be charged with a crime, you'll will probably still be the object of a civil suit.
When I went through my CCW class, the officer teaching it put it this way:
"If you use your weapon, you will be sued."

Ebbtide
May 13, 2003, 10:02 AM
Uhm...uh...what? I'll call BS on this, since the Ohio Code and the Ohio Revised Code both allow off-duty officers to carry. So, unless "a few years ago" was the 1800s, I think thats incorrect. Besides, putting someone on paid admin leave isn't going to make a CCW felony charge go away.

If I did not know you better I would say you are taking a "tone" with me. :D

http://www.sunnews.com/news/1999/1104/wtreemont.htm

My bad, I should have been more clear. The subsequent ruling was that it is okay that police officers carry off-duty, while drinking in a bar. Even if you accidentally shoot a "civilian" in the process of defending the bar, which they did.

I can't find a more inclusive story so you will have to read between the lines in the above story.

Sorry I ruffled your feathers, but I think you get the picture about the "fairness" of the charges.

Regards,

ehenz

Double Naught Spy
May 13, 2003, 10:40 AM
So sure enough, the guy foils a robbery and gets busted himself. That is a risk you run when you carry illegally. This sort of thing has been an ongoing problem in NY where people with unregistered guns foil home invasions, sometimes killing the invaders, and then get charged for the non-registered contraband gun.

What folks often fail to understand is that the heroes in these stories were lawbreakers themselves and managed to call attention to their firearms transgressions when they used their weapons. As with the OH bar hero, he was breaking the law before the robbery started.

What I don't understand is why the hero would be charged with assault, if indeed he ever was. The incident seems to clearly be self defense. The weapons charges seem valid, but the assault definitely does not.

pytron
May 13, 2003, 11:12 AM
I think the reason for the outrage here is that it was (as far as I can tell) a clearly justified case of self-defense. I don't think anyone is arguing that.

It just seems wrong that in a case of self-defense, the victim is charged with a crime. Clearly he was breaking the (unconstitutional) law. Hypothetical situation:

You are piloting your boat on the local lake. A police boat near you catches fire. You rescue the police officers. When you return to shore, you are ticketed for not having enough life jackets for all aboard.

<sarcasm>But, they are just doing their job!</sarcasm>

-Pytron

Coronach
May 13, 2003, 11:59 AM
Ehenz-

I think there is still some confusion, probably on both of our parts. What it sounds like they're discussing is the issue of Special Duty officers for that given area.

Special Duty officers are officers that are off duty with their respective departments and are employed by various establishments for security. Now, department rules will vary as to whether or not they are allowed to work in Liquor Establishments, and whether or not they must be in the uniform of the day. It sounds like the legal question may have been the department's internal policy re: liquor establishments, and not an actual legal issue.

Make sense to you? This is a guess, but it makes sense to me.

Mike

Ebbtide
May 13, 2003, 12:46 PM
Coronach,

Councilman Joe Cimperman said he is working to set up an off-duty police patrol in the Tremont neighborhood in the wake of the attempted robbery and shooting at the Tree House bar.

Beck told residents he was proud of the officers. And he said the incident showed that efforts to ban off-duty officers from carrying a gun in a bar are not a good idea.

Yes, the article reads that way as this was after the fact. It really only touches on the off-duty shooting which was only parenthetical to the story as the officers were not there in a capacity as cops, just drinkers having a good time.

But, it is the only story I could find find touches on the hub-bub about the police carrying in bars while off duty on personal business (drinking). I even search TFL because I know we discussed this back then, but no joy.

Don't get me wrong, I think our cops should be allowed to carry regardless if I can, or can't. I just don't like how nearly identical shootings can take place and the "civilian" gets put thru the ringer, and the cop gets an easy off.

Guns and alcohol don't mix, except in a few cases I guess :rolleyes:

Take care,
ehenz

Henry Bowman
May 13, 2003, 01:12 PM
Last I heard, the Good Guy is not being charged with CCW. He is being charged with aggravated assault and possessing a firearm in a liquor establishment. Ohio's anti-CCW law has been declared unconstitutional in Hamilton County. The injunction prohibiting the police from enforcing it has been stayed (meaning that they are not prohibited from enforcing it). That does not mean that they have to or that the prosecutor wants to get into that right now. The assault charge is subjective. The other one is objective, slam dunk, and there are no defenses (affirmative or otherwise). :(

The cops/prosecutor probably think that this guy is a hotshot, "above the law" type and they want to sent a message that ______. Well, you know what message they think they are sending and what is actually being understood.

El Tejon
May 13, 2003, 01:58 PM
mini, not so, I have been told several times on THR and in person that good guys do not get criminally prosecuted for defending themselves or others. Even challenging me to find just one case. However, it is by people who do not work inside the criminal justice system or are new to firearms.

I analogize it to people who have not had or do not know of anyone suffering from a particular disease and thus believe that the disease does not exist or that they are immune. It happens, it depends, just further evidence.

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