Followup on 4 cops v 1 felon in San Antonio


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Blackhawk
January 4, 2003, 07:56 PM
http://www.mysanantonio.com/expressnews/story.cfm?xla=saen&xlb=180&xlc=911632

4 officers recovering after shooting spree

By Karisa King, Elaine Aradillas and Jesse Bogan
Express-News Staff Writers

Web Posted : 01/04/2003 12:00 AM

In one of the most vicious attacks on police in recent years, a burly ex-convict turned a romantic dispute at a North Side diner into a shooting rampage that left four officers wounded with their own guns.

The gunman, Jamie Lichtenwalter, a 26-year-old parolee who had become jealous after seeing his girlfriend with another man, was killed outside the Denny's restaurant on Northeast Loop 410 by a rookie officer who had been shot four times.

"He ambushed all the officers, who weren't quite prepared for somebody quite that violent," Police Chief Albert Ortiz said at a morning news conference. "You never know when an explosion is going to occur. It changes not just from call to call, but from second to second."

The four policemen wounded by Lichtenwalter — Officers David Evans, Michael Muñiz and Nathan Murray and Detective John Bocko — are recovering at two area hospitals.

The shootings faintly reawakened some of the same questions about police safety and training surrounding the slayings of two officers two years ago.

"We will review again to see if anything needs to change in terms of tactics and strategies," Ortiz said.

Evans and Bocko arrived separately at the restaurant about 3:30 a.m. after Lichtenwalter's girlfriend told a manager to call police.

Evans, a 51-year-old patrolman with 25 years of experience, and Bocko, an evidence detective who happened to be nearby when the call came, believed they had quickly defused the argument. Lichtenwalter had voluntarily handed over his girlfriend's car keys.

But as the officers allowed him to leave the restaurant, his girlfriend whispered to one of the officers that Lichtenwalter, a former bouncer at several area strip clubs, might have a gun, police said.

At that point and without warning, Lichtenwalter whirled and punched Bocko in the jaw, breaking it in several places.

Witnesses told police Bocko fell to the floor "like a sack of potatoes," Ortiz said at the news conference.

Lichtenwalter, described by police as having arms as thick as tree trunks, then turned on Evans, knocked him to the ground and wrested the veteran officer's .40-caliber Glock. As Evans lay on the ground without his bullet-proof vest, Lichtenwalter stood and shot him three times — in the chest, stomach and arm, police spokesman Gabriel Trevino said.

The dozen or so diners in the restaurant ducked underneath tables. As several called 911, the police switchboard flashed with green and red lights.

By that time, Bocko was back on his feet, but he was dazed and stumbled through the restaurant. The gunman then started firing at him, and he was grazed by a bullet across his back.

"Wherever Bocko was bleeding, you could see the trail of gunfire following him," Ortiz said.

When Lichtenwalter ran out of bullets, he kicked and pistol-whipped Bocko with the empty Glock, Ortiz said.

Meanwhile, Evans staggered out of the restaurant. But Lichtenwalter was close behind — and now armed with Bocko's gun.

A desk clerk at the adjacent Econo Lodge said he was in the hotel lobby when Evans began banging on the front glass window.

"I could hear him pounding, just 'Bam, bam, bam,'" said Eric Detloff, the clerk.

Trevino said they were unsure when Lichtenwalter grabbed Bocko's gun.

"We feel he had already unloaded Evans' gun by the time he got to Bocko's gun," Trevino said.

Muñiz, 22 and fresh out of the training academy five months ago, and Murray, a North Side patrolman with eight years on the force, were next to arrive.

They spotted Evans in the parking lot and began helping him when Lichtenwalter opened fire.

A bullet pierced Murray's cheek. Muñiz was shot in the neck and three times in the leg. He managed to exchange gunfire with Lichtenwalter at close range. Lichtenwalter, who was shot at least six times, collapsed on top of Muñiz and died, authorities said.

When a group of backup officers arrived, Muñiz , too weakened to move, was still lying underneath the gunman.

"It would have been understandable if (Muñiz ) had backed up and hesitated, but he didn't," Ortiz said. "I certainly have to admire that individual."

From start to finish, the shootout lasted about five minutes, with Lichtenwalter firing more than two dozen rounds.

It was not his first brush with violence.

In March 1993, Lichtenwalter, then 16, fired a semiautomatic pistol at a group of youths milling around an E-Z Food Mart in Universal City. Edward Lee Escobedo, 18, was left paralyzed from his neck down and died several years later.

Universal City police Lt. Charles Dewey called that act a "cold-blooded random act of violence" and said Lichtenwalter did not know any of the victims.

Prosecuted as an adult, Lichtenwalter pleaded no contest to attempted murder and received a 12-year prison term. He was paroled in July 2001 after serving seven years.

"He showed no remorse whatsoever," Dewey recalled.

He lashed out at the decision to parole him.

"It's shocking they would let someone like that out of prison," Dewey said.

Since his release from prison, Lichtenwalter had been meeting regularly with his parole officer and abiding by the terms of his parole, said Bryan Collier, director of the Texas Board of Criminal Justice parole division.

Police said Lichtenwalter met his girlfriend, a 20-year-old stripper police did not name, while he worked as a bouncer at a local club. The two started dating in March. Though trouble soon surfaced in the relationship and Lichtenwalter erupted with periodic bouts of jealousy, his girlfriend told police he had never been violent with her.

About an hour before the shootout, Lichtenwalter spotted his girlfriend leaving the Far West Rodeo dance club with a female friend and another man. He followed the three for a short time, but lost them and returned to his North Side home on Foster Road, where he lived with his parents.

Under the pretense of needing a house key, Lichtenwalter called his girlfriend on her cell phone and lured her to his home, where he confronted her with a shotgun.

He forced her at gunpoint to return to the Denny's restaurant, where he began arguing with the man.

At an afternoon news conference, police officials seemed to anticipate the scrutiny and second-guessing that might come.

Police trainers will scrutinize the video captured by a surveillance camera at Denny's, Ortiz said at the news conference.

"They did the best they could with what was presented to them, and we just thank God that they're alive," Sgt. Andy Hernandez added.

At the San Antonio Police Academy, cadets practice protecting their holstered firearm in training exercises.

"It's a pretty grueling course they put them through," said retired police union president Jerry Clancy. "They put another man on you, and you have to keep your gun on you for two minutes."

He described the drill as a drag-out fight.

Trevino said weapon retention is taught throughout the 27-week training course for cadets. Periodically, the topic is taught in annual refresher courses for all officers.

After the night shift roll call around 3 p.m. at the North Side substation, 20-year police veteran Frank San Miguel said there was a somber mood among the ranks. He said supervisors urged the officers to wear their bullet resistant vests and to stay alert.

"A lot of the officers do get complacent, but this brings them back to reality," he said. The incident, he said, will make him tell himself at routine calls, "Hey, this is not just another call."

The 2001 killings of SWAT Officer John "Rocky" Riojas and Police Officer Hector Garza, who were alone when they were shot, prompted union officials to claim that a staffing shortage was endangering officers. Friday's shootout returned police administrators and union leaders to the issue.

"Anybody who says backup assures the safety of the officer doesn't know street police work at all," Ortiz said.

But police union President Rene Rodriguez repeated the argument.

"I think you can always claim that there's going to be certain isolated incidents where it doesn't really matter how many individuals you have, bad things are going to happen," Rodriguez said. "I think as a general rule, there is safety in numbers."

Cynthia Murray, the wife of Nathan Murray, said officers drove her to University Hospital, where her husband was being treated for his injuries. She talked to reporters outside the hospital, wearing her husband's wedding ring and a miniature badge with his number, 1290, on a chain around her neck.

As of late Friday afternoon, Nathan Murray was not speaking, but he acknowledged the presence of his family by wiggling his feet and hands. At one point, Cynthia Murray said, Jo Ann Murray, the officer's mother, told her son she loved him. In response, he held up his fingers in the American Sign Language sign for "I love you."

To donate to a benefit fund for the four officers, send donations to City Employees Federal Credit Union, Account #751800-S1.

kking@express-news.net

Staff Writers Elaine Aradillas, John Tedesco, Jesse Bogan, Lisa Sandberg and Rebeca Rodriguez contributed to this report.



01/04/2003

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WonderNine
January 4, 2003, 08:05 PM
What in the hell was this guy doing out of prison in the first place?????? :confused:

Blackhawk
January 4, 2003, 08:07 PM
This is going to require some careful reading.

It appears that the perp went into the restaurant unarmed, and ended up taking guns away from 2 LEOs in succession.

Where did he get "arms as thick as tree trunks" other than lifting weights provided by taxpayers in a prison gym? If being confined without the ability to do strength building workouts is cruel punishment, so what? Let them do pushups or run in place to work off the stress. NO GYM EQUIPMENT FOR PRISONERS, especially not with tax money!

How on earth would ANY condition-other-than-white person allow this guy to get within striking distance of them?

What does 36 rounds of .40 S&W fired tell us about the round? I'm not liking what I'm thinking....

I hope the obvious "lessons learned" from this tragic incident are not going to be covered up and ignored.

Finally, if you were a CCW holder in the restaurant, would you have intervened?

Blackhawk
January 4, 2003, 08:11 PM
WonderNine,

He was a model prisoner and parolee, but the crime for which he was convicted was callous and heinous. Some blissninnies believe in prison rehabilitation. Unfortunately, some of them are on parole boards.... :fire: :banghead:

WonderNine
January 4, 2003, 08:11 PM
I wish the taxpayers would buy me some gym equip.

:mad:

WonderNine
January 4, 2003, 08:13 PM
My dislike for .40 (Short&Weak) is bolstered once again.

I wonder what the officer that shot and killed him was using.

Probably the same round though....

Seems like most agencies use .40 nowadays.

Redlg155
January 4, 2003, 08:20 PM
Sounds like a lot of questions will be answered in the ongoing investigations.

I'm peeved about the perp only serving a fraction of his sentence. That clearly is a problem with our Judicial system.

I'm also wondering about what level retention holsters the officers had. With a correct holster you can literally drag an Officer around and the weapon will stay in the holster.

I understand the initial Officers being caught up in the confrontation. What I don't understand is why the responding Officers failed to secure the scene first before attempting to render medical aid. Situational Awareness clearly went out the window. Shotguns should have come out instead of handguns.

Oh well...Hopefully all Officers involved will come out of this ok. As for the BG...one less puke on this earth.

Finally, if you were a CCW holder in the restaurant, would you have intervened?

Yes, but only AFTER the Officers were down. If you intervene prior to that the Officers have no idea who is a "freindly". For all he knows the BG now has a buddy who decided to join in.

Good SHooting
RED

Blackhawk
January 4, 2003, 08:30 PM
Wondernine,

Muñiz had an issue Glock 22, .40 S&W, and shot the perp 6 times, close range, and NONE of his shots were instant stoppers as evidenced by the perp collapsing on top of Muñiz.

Another of my questions is what ammo SAPD uses. I don't think very many agencies use FMJs, but I don't know.

ahenry
January 4, 2003, 09:08 PM
Additionally info sure seems to back up your initial assessment...

:(

dinosaur
January 4, 2003, 09:10 PM
Usually plain clothes officers don`t have holsters that are as strong as the uniformed division since they`re usually concealed. That is unless he was a "Walker" type. Not a joke. How he got the uniformed officer`s gun is harder to explain but then again, nothing is impossible.

When P.O. Phil Cardillo was murdered in the Harlem Mosque in the early `70s, Louis "17X" Dupree grabbed Cardillo`s gun and ripped the holster down the seam. A huge man, Dupree lifted Cardillo off the ground by the gun butt before it ripped.

WonderNine
January 4, 2003, 09:20 PM
What I was getting at is the fact that he killed somebody and shot several others. From what it sounds like he got an 8 year sentence. There's no way any parole board can justify that no matter how much of a model prisoner he was.

St. Gunner
January 4, 2003, 10:35 PM
Redlg155,

I don't think they have shotguns, got a buddy in SAPD and I could swear he told me they are not allowed to have em in the car. The qualify with em but I don't think they carry em.

Why has everyone started to neglect the .45 acp in Law Enforcement? It seems like almost every shooting I have read of in the last few years it has taken numerous rounds to stop the culprit and it is 9mm and .40sw. I'm not sure what I think about the DPS and their .357 Sig with Gold dots, I like the gold dot round, but it sure seems to be the cookies in a .45 caliber round.

My question is how did the guy manage to KO one guy and the other guy not manage to get out of reach and bring his gun into play. If the guy was as big as the news is saying, you don't wrestle with him in place he can break you over a table. Not after you just heard the other guys jaw break when he landed a punch, and you can hear em let go from a ways off.

I can't believe that numerous people didn't get hit.

The parole system is a joke, had a guy come to me looking for a job a few years ago, fresh off serving 3yrs of a 6yr for armed robbery of a Burger King. He was no more re-habilitated from crime than I am from shooting after attending a anti-liberty college for 10yrs. He made it a week doing honest work, then reverted back totally. The money is to good, the work to easy, and if you get caught the accomadations to comfortable. :fire:

Maybe one day i'll get elected judge in my little County of Texas and we can start hanging folks in the town square.

4v50 Gary
January 4, 2003, 10:42 PM
Rehabilitation - doesn't. Now, rehabilitation through reincarnation does.

Blackhawk
January 4, 2003, 10:45 PM
St. Gunner,

Can you find out from your buddy what .40 S&W round the SAPD issues? I'd sure appreciate it! :D

Blackhawk
January 4, 2003, 10:49 PM
Yes, but only AFTER the Officers were down. If you intervene prior to that the Officers have no idea who is a "freindly". For all he knows the BG now has a buddy who decided to join in.That's the vexing part. I don't know if I COULD wait while the perp polished off the LEOs, and while the perp was busy with them would seem to be the ideal time to take him out....

TallPine
January 4, 2003, 11:04 PM
Finally, if you were a CCW holder in the restaurant, would you have intervened?

Make it even more interesting .......

Let's say someone is carrying concealed without a permit, and saves a cop's life ... suppose they would prosecute?

Blackhawk
January 4, 2003, 11:15 PM
Probably.... :(

Redlg155
January 4, 2003, 11:17 PM
Let's say someone is carrying concealed without a permit, and saves a cop's life ... suppose they would prosecute?

Yes. They would release a statement to say that although your actions were honorable, we cannot condone the carrying of weapons illegaly. Then you would be charged for either a felony or misdemeanor in your state with a reduced sentence or probation as "punishment".

Now, rehabilitation through reincarnation does.

Yes, but it also increases the mosquito population.

Good Shooting
RED

St. Gunner
January 5, 2003, 11:39 AM
Blackhawk,

Will do, i'll try to stop in and talk to him on Monday or Tuesday, he works till about midnight but normally runs into 2 or 3am depending on what happens and who he has to book. So he sleeps a good part of the day. He's off Monday and Tuesday, so i'll try to find him and ask.

Blackhawk
January 5, 2003, 12:24 PM
Thanks, Steve. That's an important piece of one facet of this puzzle. I'll greatly appreciate it! :)

Shawn Dodson
January 5, 2003, 01:27 PM
Muñiz had an issue Glock 22, .40 S&W, and shot the perp 6 times, close range, and NONE of his shots were instant stoppers as evidenced by the perp collapsing on top of Muñiz. An instant stop is going to occur only if a bullet directly contacts and damages CNS structures or the bad guy experiences a psychological reaction to being shot.

Lichtenwalter initiated an ambush-type attack on the first two officers and was successful. He was also determined. These two factors usually mean a bad guy is not going to experience a psychological reaction. [The specific load used is...] an important piece of one facet of this puzzle. More imporant is what structures the bullets damaged and how badly they damaged these structures, because this will determine, physiologically, why Lichtenwalter was able to react as he did to being shot.

Blackhawk
January 5, 2003, 01:51 PM
Exactly right, Shawn.

I've got running battles going on (figuratively speaking) with the experts (including you, I believe) about where to place SD shots.

Just because I have to assume that anybody attacking in an SD situation would be like this perp (strong, aggressive, pumped, and determined), COM shots are not going to be instant stoppers. In this case, Muñiz and the perp were apparently slugging it out like a couple of WWII battleships while the perp was charging Muñiz.

If a perp can absorb 6 rounds of .40 S&W and end up bleeding out on top of you, you've shot him in the wrong place.

I'm still contending that the head is Target One in closing, charging attacks.

El Rojo
January 5, 2003, 02:06 PM
All situations are different, but for me as soon as that guy got a hold of the officers gun, I would have started shooting. If the cops are in the restaruant and I am sitting there eating with my Glock 27 in my wasteband, I am going to naturally be paying attention to what they are up too. Then as I saw the guy punch the one officer, then grab the other officers pistol, I would have drawn and fired at that point. Those cops would have easily figured out who was who when the bad guy got hit and not them.

In federal prison (at least in mine) the inmates do not get weights anymore. They have to settle for non-weight work outs. Of course that doesn't stop them from using anything that weighs over 50 to 100 pounds to do curls.

Triad
January 5, 2003, 02:12 PM
"It's a pretty grueling course they put them through," said retired police union president Jerry Clancy. "They put another man on you, and you have to keep your gun on you for two minutes."
So what happens after two minutes? IIRC, one of the smart gun articles was saying 12% of the LEOs killed each year are shot with their own weapons. Seems to me that more and better training is needed.
What I was getting at is the fact that he killed somebody and shot several others. From what it sounds like he got an 8 year sentence.
Edward Lee Escobedo, 18, was left paralyzed from his neck down and died several years later.
The victim didn't die until after the BG was in prison. Still no reason to let him out tho.

Blackhawk
January 5, 2003, 02:59 PM
I believe the perp got a 15 year sentence and was paroled after 7.The victim didn't die until after the BG was in prison. Still no reason to let him out tho. It's highly likely that the victim died as an indirect result of his injuries. A person paralyzed "from the earlobes down" isn't likely to live very long in any event.

The perp needed years tacked on to his sentence instead of getting parole.

Triad
January 5, 2003, 03:15 PM
The article says he was given a twelve year sentence, and paroled after serving seven. Can they add years to his sentence? The article doesn't say whether or not he died as a result of the shooting. It could have been due to medical malpractice, or he may have just given up on life and died. If it was due to the shooting,(which it almost certainly was) could they add to his sentence, or would they have to try him again?

Blackhawk
January 5, 2003, 03:30 PM
Maybe it was 12, but I thought an earlier article said 15, but it doesn't matter since he was paroled early.

I don't think he could be tried again for the same crime. Double jeopardy, you know. The prosecution gets one bite at the apple but the defense can chew away constantly.

Quadriplegics have a constant battle with infections, circulation problems, blood clots, bed sores, and you name it. None of the physiological problems come close to describing the torture it must be for an active brain confined without any ability to connect with the environment on its own must be. Who would WANT to live under those circumstances? :(

This guy probably couldn't eat, chew, talk, etc., either, so his injury was almost certainly why he died.

444
January 5, 2003, 03:30 PM
"As Evans lay on the ground without his bullet-proof vest, Lichtenwalter stood and shot him three times — in the chest, stomach and arm," "Evans staggered out of the restaurant." "Evans began banging on the front glass window"

And he lived and is recovering in the hospital.

"Bocko was back on his feet, but he was dazed and stumbled through the restaurant. The gunman then started firing at him, and he was grazed by a bullet across his back." " When Lichtenwalter ran out of bullets, he kicked and pistol-whipped Bocko with the empty Glock, Ortiz said. "

Why didn't this guy fire his own weapon. I realize that he was seriously dazed but................

"The dozen or so diners in the restaurant ducked underneath tables. "

This is a real shame.

"When a group of backup officers arrived, Muñiz , too weakened to move, was still lying underneath the gunman. "

This guy Muniz is a man's man. I am proud of him as a man, and a law enforcement officer, and as an American.

I hope some people remember this article the next time they feel the urge to start yet another thread on one shot stops, handgun effectiveness etc.

Triad
January 5, 2003, 03:40 PM
None of the physiological problems come close to describing the torture it must be for an active brain confined without any ability to connect with the environment on its own must be. Who would WANT to live under those circumstances?
There's a Metallica song that made me think about that, and how bad it would have to be.Click here for lyrics. (http://www.themetsource.com/lyrics/justice/one.htm)

denfoote
January 5, 2003, 03:53 PM
What does 36 rounds of .40 S&W fired tell us about the round? I'm not liking what I'm thinking....

I'm reevaluating my adherence to the 9mm and .40 S&W as a defensive cartridge!! I think it's back to .45ACP or 10mm for me!!! :what:

Matthew Courtney
January 5, 2003, 04:53 PM
A few months ago, a man who was convicted of a double homicide committed in Lake Charles during the course of a home invasion was sentenced to time served by the "honorable" Judge Wilford Carter and released. He had been in jail for about 4 1/2 years awaiting trial.

Blackhawk
January 5, 2003, 05:04 PM
I'm reevaluating my adherence to the 9mm and .40 S&W as a defensive cartridge!! I think it's back to .45ACP or 10mm for me!!! Unless and until we can get C4 packed and fuzed modified hollow points, I'm going to be even more obsessed with practicing head shots....

Blackhawk
January 5, 2003, 05:08 PM
A few months ago, a man who was convicted of a double homicide committed in Lake Charles during the course of a home invasion was sentenced to time served by the "honorable" Judge Wilford Carter and released. He had been in jail for about 4 1/2 years awaiting trial. :cuss:

Surely there's more to the story! Any more details...?

:cuss:

444
January 6, 2003, 01:03 AM
"Unless and until we can get C4 packed and fuzed modified hollow points, I'm going to be even more obsessed with practicing head shots...."

Blackhawk, you get it. It doesn't matter near as much what handgun you are shooting, they are marginal. Placement is all that matters.

MuzzleBlast
January 6, 2003, 09:47 AM
Where did he get "arms as thick as tree trunks" other than lifting weights provided by taxpayers in a prison gym? I like Dennis Miller's take on that: "You want a weight room? You already have one. It's called your cell. NOW GET IN THERE AND WAIT!"

El Rojo
January 6, 2003, 11:19 AM
I carry a sawed off M1 Garand in my jacket as I know that anything less than a full sized .30-06 round or a .45 ACP won't stop bad guys in 1 shot or less. Plus you can shoot them in the finger and they won't want to get up. :banghead: It is shot placement and all about shot placement. If the body doesn't work, use his head. :rolleyes:

Mike Irwin
January 6, 2003, 01:11 PM
"Muñiz had an issue Glock 22, .40 S&W, and shot the perp 6 times, close range, and NONE of his shots were instant stoppers."

And that's an indictment of the round how? Does it say where the guy was struck? Arms, legs, lower torso? Areas where a 1-shot stop wouldn't necessarily be assured even with a shotgun or heavy rifle?

Or are we just ASSUMING that this officer delivered 6 picture perfect heart shots in .00000000000000000000025 seconds?

The only "instant" stopper you get with any handgun round is a shot to the spine or head, and a head shot isn't 100% certain.

Stomach and arm hits with ANY handgun round is likely not to stop someone. A "chest hit" can include anything from a shot to the heart to a grazing shot along the ribs to a bullet through the pectoral muscles.

I guess all of this is proof, though, that a single .45 fired anywhere in the general direction of any of these individuals would have immediately broken ever bone in their bodies, boiled their blood, and pulpled every vital organ, resulting in a "1 shot hypersplatterization" with massive infrastructure damage over a 4-square-block area...

Come on, guys. Stop trying to read so damned much into a NEWSPAPER article! Aren't some of you the same people who wouldn't believe a newspaper article if it told you you were on fire, and now you're depending on it to set your criteria for a carry round? :scrutiny:

Anyone else see what's wrong with this picture?

I mean Jesus, from the same newspaper article I guess we can also conclude that the polymer-frame, metal slide Glock makes a LOUSY handgun for pistol whipping someone?

ahenry
January 6, 2003, 01:25 PM
"hypersplatterization" :D

from the same newspaper article I guess we can also conclude that the polymer-frame, metal slide Glock makes a LOUSY handgun for pistol whipping someone? Absolutely. You mean you didn't think that was the "between the lines" point of the article? Myself, I thought the point of the whole thing was to say that 40 S&W is 40 Short & Weak, and Glocks are crappy mankillers. They shoulda hada 1911. :neener:

Mike Irwin
January 6, 2003, 01:42 PM
Obviously you've missed your "reading between the lines 101" classes, Ahenry.

The hidden story here is that the 4 wounded officers violated this man's civil rights by interfering with his target practice.

tyme
January 6, 2003, 01:43 PM
I'm waiting for the lawsuit... "The glock failed to stop the attacker in an appropriate timeframe."

Why blame training? This way the police could make some money out of it!

Mike, I think you meant they were interfering with the Glock's target practice. :uhoh:

ahenry
January 6, 2003, 02:00 PM
Obviously you've missed your "reading between the lines 101" classes, Ahenry.

The hidden story here is that the 4 wounded officers violated this man's civil rights by interfering with his target practice.

You're right. I'm so ashamed. :o

foghornl
January 6, 2003, 02:21 PM
I seem to vaguely recall in one of the gun-rags about 30-35 years back that the San Antonio PD had switched from 38Spl/357Mag class of revolver up to the 41Mag, with much greater success in ending gun battles quickly. Maybe should re-visit that issue.

dave
January 6, 2003, 03:25 PM
The whole story saddens me.

There are several points that make me upset. Why was the guy out of prison to begin with? Why weren't the officers more alert? Why, after shooting someone several times and him not going down, didn't the officer's use shotguns or better shot placement? Why weren't the plain clothes officers wearing a vest?

I know, the story answers most of those questions. I just don't like the answers. Being an officer myself, I try not to "second guess" something that happens when I wasn't there. But, dog gone it, there seem to have been so many mistakes here.

I tend to place the errors right back in the lap of the public, and administration. When I say "the public" I don't mean everyone. I'm talking about those who have their heads stuffed in the TV Guide, whatching soaps and Walker all day. They won't let officers do the job the way it needs to be done (this doesn't include officers who feel it's ok to run roughshod over everyone, just because they wear a badge). Today, we are taught that to treat anyone as a threat (standing away from them, giving firm commands, taking charge of the scene, ect.) is a violation of their "rights". Admin is worried more about being taken to court than the well being of it's officers.

What we see in police work today is the result of many years of "social change". We see it here, on this board, from time to time. Have an officer stop someone who is a CCW'er, and an all around good guy, and if the officer does the things listed above rather than pat the guy on the shoulder and talk guns with him, then the officer is a jerk. Everyone speaks of the need for officers to be more "aware", yet when they try to be, they are taken to task for not being able to read the suspects mind. We don't know who may be the one to kill us. We just don't know. So, if we try to treat everyone as a possible threat, we're lambasted as "badge heavy" or "on a power trip".

Again, I'm not talking about those officers who DO INDEED act this way. They're out there. We know it and you know it. But, rather than try to get rid of these officers, something the public has taught the Depts that they will catch hell for (via Unions, the NAACP, Laywers, and the Feds), they are allowed to remain. Their answer, give every officer more "sensitivity training". This teaches officers to be more "user friendly", we can't keep our distance, we can't be firm with oyr directions, we can't "harm" antone when we have to fight them, we can't, IN ANY WAY, treat them as if they are a threat, and, God forbid, we can't use our gun for anything.

We all know who is to blame for most of these rules. Yet we don't want to them applied to us either. We don't want an officer to be firm and busniess like with us. We want him, how I don't know, to understand when he has contact with us that we are the good guys and that he can be at ease with us. And it simply can't work that way, an officer has to be allow to treat everyone as a possible threat. Simply because everyone is.

As long as officers come frome society in general, we will get bad seeds. That's because there are bad seeds in society in general. We all know that. Then why on earth is it so hard for Depts to get rid of them? Because they are more concerned with how the dept "looks" than with why type job it does. Ask any officer, we want the bad cops gone, we don't care about race or gender. If a cop can do the job, great. If he/she can't, then get rid of them. Stop asking us to risk our lives, and YOURS, by keeping bad officers.

None of this should be taken to mean the officers involved in this event were bad, is doesn't. I've just tried to explain how some officers can be lulled into "condition white". We all share the blame. Until we are determined to get rid of bad officers and until we are commited to letting them do the job the way they must, things like this will continue to happen.

The public gets the type of police they demand. In the past few decades the public has demanded more "touchy feely" police. And they have demanded that we keep "bad" officers, whether they be white, black, male or female. It has demanded we promote officers based on how they look rather than how they act or how much they know. It has demanded that officers react to them as dinner guests rather than possible threats. It expects officers to be able to read their minds, to know if they are a threat or not.

How we want/expect officers to act has a direct bearing on whether they live or die. If you want an officer to treat you diffrent, just because you are a "good guy", it will, most likely get him killed somewhere down the road. If you don't want us to be able to get rid if the bad officers, most likely "someone" will die at sometime.

What do we want?

DerRottweiler
January 6, 2003, 07:30 PM
I wish those Officers a speedy and complete recovery!

Island Beretta
January 6, 2003, 08:13 PM
:cuss: :cuss: :banghead: :fire: These cops were too complacent!! They should have gone to condition RED right away!!

Hope they recover!! Good thing it was only a .40 S&W and not the famous killer 9mm rounds..

And for police admins please more training for our officers!!!

waterdog
January 6, 2003, 08:46 PM
This kind of stuff is going to happen regardless of the training, weapons or ammo.

I read a story about a dude who took 32 9mm Silvertips, before he ceased being a threat.
And another who was hit with several rounds of 00 Buck at less than 15 yards, and continued to fight for several minutes before bleeding out.

waterdog

Monte Harrison
January 7, 2003, 11:17 AM
I wish those Officers a speedy and complete recovery!Roger that! Also, I hope they and their department LEARN from this.

TheeBadOne
January 7, 2003, 11:28 AM
I hope that some people, after reading this story, realize why so many officers seem so "harsh" during a contact. They are just being careful and trying to make it home at the end of their shift. They never know who they are dealing with and what they might do without a seconds notice. In this call the badguy spoke nicely with the officers, was calm, and the problem was resolved and all parties were through and on their way out. That changed in a heartbeat. Next time you get pulled over for 10 over don't be so mad at the cop for being careful with you, the unknown factor. If these cops had treated this call like a high risk stop they'd probably all be still alive, but all curshed for being jack booted nazi's. It's a fine line out there.

Blackhawk
January 7, 2003, 01:02 PM
Fortunately, all the cops ARE still alive, wounded, but alive. :)

sm
January 7, 2003, 01:09 PM
Amazing, hope all continue to recover--no surprises down the road.

St. Gunner
January 7, 2003, 01:39 PM
Blackhawk,

I haven't caught him at the house yet, been by a few times yesterday and today. If I can't run him down i'm heading to town to a local gunshop that normally has a few SAPD guys hanging out in it and i'll ask them.

Where are you located at? We'll have to get all the guys from this part of Texas out one day and shoot here at the house, i've got 300yds of range we can use.

St. Gunner
January 7, 2003, 03:48 PM
Blackhawk,

Speer Golddots 180gr version from what I have been able to gather from a couple different folks today, two said 180 and one said 155gr. I thought I had read when the Glock was adopted it was going to be a 155gr loading. But I don't think it really matters all that much...

Got more info on the placement also, five superficial wounds to begin with that had no real affect and number six was to the head which dropped him right now.

It brings up an interesting question though about placement and such, I was taught and have been told two to the center mass and if the threat is still there, one to the head. That this is the most legally defendable combination to use. I know I carry a little .22 at times when I can't find a good way to conceal my other carry piece and my thought has always been, straight to the head with the rat shooter. With about anything else i'll stick with two to the body,one to the head(the lawyer insists it is a good idea).

Blackhawk
January 7, 2003, 04:02 PM
Thanks, Steve!

That's two great pieces of information about this vexing incident.

"Superficial" normally means that a wound wouldn't even do muscle damage as in like being grazed. I wonder if the wounds weren't to vital areas instead? It's really hard to just nick somebody.

BTW, last time I was in Devine was in 1970. Flew in to sell an airplane. Seemed like a great little town! Thanks for the offer, and "if ever" I'll give you a warning! :D

Matthew Courtney
January 7, 2003, 04:25 PM
I think it prudent to point out that the vital organs on a 275 pound man tend to be the same size as the vitals of a 150 pound man. That means that there is a lot more area where you can hit the torso and miss all the vital organs. It seems from the various descriptions that this dude was quite large. Shot placement is everything.

ahenry
January 7, 2003, 04:40 PM
That would also tend to support Blackhawk's position.

Mike Irwin
January 7, 2003, 04:42 PM
Bingo.

Now we know that the .40 caliber wasn't at fault. Five superficial wounds with a .45 and one to the head likely would have given the EXACT SAME result.

ahenry
January 7, 2003, 04:44 PM
Mike, You can seriously mean that can you?! :what: Have you forgotten “hypersplatterization”?

Blackhawk
January 7, 2003, 05:28 PM
Now we know that the .40 caliber wasn't at fault. Five superficial wounds with a .45 and one to the head likely would have given the EXACT SAME result. 5 superficial woulds with a .50 BMG and a .32 ACP to the nose would too!

Placement! It's ALWAYS placement! And the crucial place to shoot AT is something you need to know beforehand.

I was watching a DVD last night and noticed that a small old guy's head was the same size as HIS COM. Wouldn't be the same ratio for the perp in this case, but as Matthew pointed out, the vitals probably are.

Mike Irwin
January 7, 2003, 05:39 PM
"5 superficial woulds with a .50 BMG and a .32 ACP to the nose would too!"

My point entirely.

Previous posters were immediately calling the .40 into question and fault, ASSUMING that it was a bullet/round failure, without having much in the way of information on where the shots that hit were placed.

That's just a teeny tiny bit premature, if you ask me.

The only shot placement information in the posted story was sketchy, at best.

Still, given the fact that the officer who delivered the fatal wound had been shot in the neck, I'm still pretty impressed.

Mike Irwin
January 7, 2003, 05:40 PM
Henry,

The latest research is that hypersplatterization only comes into play when shooting drugged Alpine Mountain Goats...

Expect LOTS of magazine articles on this subject over the next few months...

ahenry
January 7, 2003, 05:47 PM
Oh you done it now! You done drug Strasbourg into the mess. Expect to reap the whirlwind.
:uhoh:

Blackhawk
January 7, 2003, 05:52 PM
Previous posters were immediately calling the .40 into question and fault, ASSUMING that it was a bullet/round failure, without having much in the way of information on where the shots that hit were placed.

That's just a teeny tiny bit premature, if you ask me.

The only shot placement information in the posted story was sketchy, at best. Yes, yes, and yes.

Steve came up with some bonus information about the ineffective 5 hits, but I do think that there's a tendency among those who think .50 DEs and .44 Mags with their 1k+ FPE to believe (hope, actually) that if they score any kind of a hit, a BG is going to vaporize. Except when you're dealing with HE warheads that will blow a wing off by just hitting a navigation night, things just don't work that way.

A well placed .22 trumps a nick with a biggun.

TheeBadOne
January 7, 2003, 05:58 PM
I remember one fella telling how superior the .45 ACP is because unlike other rounds when it hits it often hits so hard it spins the body around, breaking bones. Now a really like the .45, but it was hard not to laugh in this fella's face. Not knowing much about guns I had my work cut out for me while I explained the physics required to do what he claimed. :banghead:

bogie
January 7, 2003, 06:08 PM
Maintain meow situational awareness. Because not all the bad guys actually appear to be bad guys...

St. Gunner
January 7, 2003, 09:28 PM
Placement on anything is the name of the game. I shoot alot of wild hogs down this way, bought a .45/70, stoked up some 300gr XTP's to 2400fps and they generated 59lbs of recoil on my end. I took this super monster to the woods, drew down on an 80lb pig and let fly. I took out one shoulder, passed through the ribs on the offside and the critter ran off about 75yds. I've done the same with my .280, .308, and .270 many times and never had to deal with 59lbs of recoil. :D

You reach a point where to much power doesn't do much good on thin skinned critter four legged and two. Punch a hole with a 300gr .44 mag and a 230gr .45acp in someones lungs without tearing up any major central nervous system parts and do you think the bleed out rate would be any different?

I know a couple guys went and bought .338 win mags to hog hunt with, said you had to have the extra whump and range. But when the range gets out there, or the hogs are running, i'm rolling hogs with 150gr corelokts out of a .280 and they are trying to prep for the recoil.

I carry a .357 mag most of the time now, might go to a 9mm, found a p95 for $225 this week and snatched it up at a pawn shop. I carry a .22 from time to time, and have been known to have a Bianchi IWB stuffed with a Springfield 1911 from time to time. But the one thing is that whatever I am packing, I am shooting as much as I can afford or have time for. I'm really impressed with the Ruger right now, it's light and the dang thing shoots like a house afire. Was ringing 8"x8" plates at 50yds with Speer Lawman ammo the other day.

But confidence has to play a part in what we choose to use, I don't hunt hogs with a .22lr because I know that outside a few yards it is incapable of doing the job. I think some handgun calibers are marginal, truth be told all of them are, isn't a handgun made to get to the rifle? But we have to choose something, and if you can afford to shoot 5 boxes of 9mm ammo a week, instead of 2 boxes of .45acp, then i'd opt to the 9mm, because you will be proficient with it.

I really questioned the ability of some of the people I took the CHL class with, when they shot scores around the 170-180 mark out of 250, when I was shooting 248-250. What happens when you intro real stress to those folks? They needed to be out there with a gun they could afford to shoot, alot. I aint no pistolero but I do practice as much as I can and it shows, if I take a month or more off from it, I can see the results right on the paper.

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