DSA SA58 vs RRA LAR10 vs Armalite AR10


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epijunkie67
September 4, 2006, 05:11 AM
I've already got an M1A but thought about getting something in .308 with a pistol grip. I've got a CETME but want to move up to a higher quality weapon. I also don't like the charging handle on the CETME.

So here's my top three options to date.

DSA SA58 Carbine
http://www.dsarms.com/item-detail.cfm?ID=SA58C&storeid=1&image=sa58carbine.gif

RRA LAR10 Mid-length
http://www.rockriverarms.com/item-detail.cfm?ID=308A1295&storeid=1&image=r308mid.gif&CFID=22887807&CFTOKEN=52092311

Armalite AR10 Carbine
http://www.armalite.com/sales/catalog/rifles/ar10a4_cabine.htm

Thoughts on the strength/weakness of each of these choices?

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GTKrockeTT
September 4, 2006, 05:34 AM
get the FAL.

rangerruck
September 4, 2006, 05:46 AM
i must admit, the ar10 has a lot going for it, plus the fact it has a lot of interchangeable parts. that being said, if the dsa uses the piston stroke system, then hands down , that is the one I would go for.

wayne in boca
September 4, 2006, 08:06 AM
Get the FAL.Mags are damn near free,and you'll love it.My DSA STG 58 gives my M1As a run for their money.

jacketch
September 4, 2006, 08:31 AM
I didn't like the CETME style charging handle either so I went with the FAL. Haven't regretted it one ounce. Like the M1a, it's a classic .308 battle rifle.

bofe954
September 4, 2006, 11:56 AM
I'd be worried about the RRA just for the fact that it is new, untested and shares a design that Bushmaster had problems with.

The Armalites are cool but whenever I look at their catalog they really don't have a specific model that I like.

I'd do the DSA of the 3 you posted, what about the H+K copy, is it JLD?

js2013
September 4, 2006, 12:32 PM
Why not DPMS? They make a quality carbine 308 that's less expensive than those you have listed.

Coronach
September 4, 2006, 12:47 PM
RRA is new, but RRA makes good weapons.

Armalite is a quality maker, and the AR10 has been around for eons.

DPMS has had their .308 AR10 variant on the market for a year or so, and I've heard nothing but glowing reviews of it.

DSA is, of course, the premier maker of FALs on the market.

Playing Which One of These is Not Like the Other, I see 3 AR patterns and one FAL pattern. I'm guessing the big question is more "AR or FAL?" than it is "which maker?"

Mike

rbernie
September 4, 2006, 12:47 PM
For all of the FAL love you'll find here, the FALnatics never talk about the balance or ergonomics or general handiness of the thing. In my opinion, the FAL handles and feels about like a 2x4 made of iron. The FAL is, no doubt, a battle tested arm, but I vastly prefer the ergonomics and balance of the AR10 pattern. Neither are lightweight, but the AR10 simply is more user-friendly.

I have an Armalite and like it. I chose the Armalite AR10 over the other options because of the ready availability of magazines and its known track record. Having said that, I wouldn't hesitate to buy a DPMS if the price was right.

Coronach
September 4, 2006, 01:16 PM
The only problem that I have with the ergos of the FAL is that it is nose-heavy, at least in its full-size, bipod-wearing, STG-style goodness. Shortening the barrel and/or removing the bipod helps things a lot. The only other negative I can think of are the stock iron sights, which are easily replaceable with either optics or AR-style sights.

One way in which the FAL is ergonomically better that the AR, IMO, is the cocking handle. The ability to cycle the weapon without removing buttstock from shoulder or strong hand from the pistol grip is very nice. The AR charging system is not a deal breaker, but it is less than ideal.

So, I don't find the AR that much better in the ergos department. Just different.

Mike

Josh M.
September 4, 2006, 08:56 PM
If you are planning on punching paper at 200 yards, the AR-10 is the better longrange platform.

If you want to blow up milk jugs at 200 yards, the FAL is WAY mor fun.

Keep the change. - JM.

thexrayboy
September 5, 2006, 01:29 AM
Is the huge availability of mags for them. Spare parts are easy to come by usually and my two FALS are easy for me to work on.

newwheelg
September 6, 2006, 01:44 PM
Sometimes you just have to get one for the "cool factor"


http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f243/philly1010/Dsc00692.jpg

AndyC
September 6, 2006, 09:58 PM
Magazine - check

Concrete - close enough

(sorry - falfiles joke) :D

newwheelg
September 7, 2006, 02:15 PM
Hey AndyC. I got it. I was going to lay it on the driveway with no mag, but I didn't think too many here would catch the relevance.

+1 for FAL files!

Davo
September 7, 2006, 02:33 PM
you guys are driving me nuts...im in cali so im stuck choosing between a FAL with fixed 10rd mag, or an M1A with standard mags. Guess Ill have to go M1A.

AndyC
September 7, 2006, 09:20 PM
I got it. I was going to lay it on the driveway with no mag, but I didn't think too many here would catch the relevance.
Good man! :D :D :D

1911JMB
September 7, 2006, 11:38 PM
I love my Fal. Its one of David Salvagio's SA58 carbines, and I think it handles every bit as nicely as the AR10 I shot. Also, unlike the AR10, its never jammed on me.

No_Brakes23
November 15, 2006, 01:24 AM
I am shocked no one mentioned the adjustable gas system as a benefit of the FAL. That put together with the AR being direct-impingement puts the FAL at the top of the 7.62NATO pile for me. For 6.8SPC/.458/5.56 the AR makes sense, but for .308, get an M1A or, if you like a pistol grip, (Like me,) get an FAL.

MachIVshooter
November 15, 2006, 02:16 AM
My preferred platform for the 7.62 NATO is the AR-10. The only AR-10 is Armalite, IMO. Unless you can afford a Stoner (Which, AFAIK, are built with many Armalite parts). And Armalite is a great company to deal with.

I love my AR-10

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n117/Hunter2506/AR-10A2C.jpg

The Armalites are cool but whenever I look at their catalog they really don't have a specific model that I like.

Between 5 models, 3 calibers and two colors (not to mention mix'n'match) you couldn't find one you liked? (If it is a shorty handguard model you prefer, you're SOL on 7.62mm AR's)

epijunkie67
November 15, 2006, 02:25 AM
No_Brakes23 ...but for .308, get an M1A...

I've got one. It's a great rifle and scary accurate. I just wanted to get something with a pistol grip. I learned centerfire rifles in the Army on the M16 and I guess that configuration is just comfortable for me.

No_Brakes23
November 16, 2006, 03:18 AM
I learned centerfire rifles in the Army on the M16 and I guess that configuration is just comfortable for me.
I learned on the A2 in the Corps. I think the M1A/M14 is a wonderful rifle, but I just don't like firing it that much. I would love to see a Tanker or M59 version of an M1A. So far all the pistol grip M1As I have seen looked really cobbled.

wacki
November 16, 2006, 04:04 AM
if the dsa uses the piston stroke system, then hands down , that is the one I would go for.

Why?

I am shocked no one mentioned the adjustable gas system as a benefit of the FAL. That put together with the AR being direct-impingement puts the FAL at the top of the 7.62NATO pile for me

Again, can someone explain the difference? And advantage/disadvantage? Holy crap it's like every thread I've read today there's some term I don't know.

Rem700SD
November 16, 2006, 06:37 AM
Any AR rifle runs gas directly back into the tube to drive the bolt back. The downside of this is a dirty chamber in x number of rounds, causing the bolt to not close properly. X depends on the quality of powder you are using. Supressors increase the chamber pressures, and thereby the fouling.
Other semi's use an op-rod that carries the force, so the chamber stays cleaner, longer. HK recently made an op-rod upper for the AR-15, But I have yet to see such an animal for a .308 AR.
G3/HK clones use roller system which i'm not familiar with, but i believe it's a complicated delayed blowback system.

I too am shopping for an EBR in .308. I was swinging back to the AR-10 until I saw the glowing DSA endorsements....

db_tanker
November 16, 2006, 09:37 AM
don't have a DSA, but it is an imbel kit on imbel reciever.


I have shot an M1A, AR-15, M-16, AR-10...and I just think that, as far as the ease of use, ease of cleaning...you can't go wrong with an FAL.



Try to get a chance to shoot each...then make up your mind...everyone is diffrent and can only tell you what they prefer...in the end, they won't be shooting that firearm, YOU will.

D

Grayrider
November 16, 2006, 09:53 AM
I will of course endorse the FAL, but I work for DSA so can fairly be considered biased. However, it is my preferred .308 caliber rifle regardless of current employment. Posters above covered the reasons really well:

1. Reliability. The mechanism is AK simple. If you tear the rifle down into the parts that do the work, there is almost nothing to it. The fact that it is piston driven and has an adjustable gas system means that it will operate in the worst of conditions. Literally if the gun is fouled up you can simply adjust the gas to force the piston to drive the action. This cannot be done with an AR-based weapon.

2. Ergonomics. Despite the comments above, I find it a very comfortable rifle. It is slim, well balanced (in particular in 11-18" variants), and has the controls in logical places for a right handed shooter. I actually shoot left handed, but have had no trouble adapting. The one mod I suggest is using our SAW grip as it fits my hand better. You can play with various stock and selector options.

3. Versatility. Visit our site and look at your options. The SA58 can be had in just about any configuration you can imagine, from a small close in CQB weapon to a long range designated marksman rifle (the SPR is not on the site yet but I will be posting pics on FAL Files soon). Pick the gun you want and configure to your tastes.

4. Cost. I will spend money to get the right gun--my wife can tell you that. However, it is also nice to have a platform that works AND is affordable to support. While the SA58 is not a cheap rifle, magazines and other accessories are quite affordable. In fact as I have pointed out here before, you can buy a complete extra FAL kit and lay in spare parts for almost any need without much invested.

There are other advantages. FAL parts are everywhere, there is a huge amount of information on the guns available from decades of service, it is a proven .308 caliber rifle, the DSA SA58s hold their value well, and are supported by a great warranty. All worth considering. Of course the various ARs you mention have quality makers backing them as well. Time will tell how they hold up under serious use, but I see no reason not to expect good things given who makes them. I would worry that Rock River may not get the guns on the market in time if a new AWB is looming, but I sincerely hope they do. More choices are always a good thing!

John

Rem700SD
November 16, 2006, 01:35 PM
Grayrider,
What kind of accuracy can I expect from a model like the grey wolf(DSA, 21" bull bbl)? I spoke to reps from DSA, but couldn't pin down an estimate. I'm seriously considering a DSA Fal if I know it can hit soda cans at 250 yds.
Otherwise i'm going with an AR10T.


Dan

Grayrider
November 16, 2006, 01:54 PM
Dan,

It is hard to say given the variability in ammo, shooter, and the gun itself. With the bull barrel I would expect that (given good ammo, proper conditions, and skill) you could do that. As DSA is not a giant gun maker cranking out hundreds of identical guns on a tightly controlled assembly line, we just don't make the set-in-stone accuracy claims some companies will make about their mass produced target guns. We are also talking about a battle rifle and not a target gun. However, my personal opinion (for what it is worth) is that with the bull barrel model and good ammo you should be quite happy with the results.

I would suggest you consider adding the match trigger if you get the Gray Wolf. I am sure you know that FAL triggers are not great out of the box, but with the trigger work DSA offers can be excellent.

John

1911JMB
November 16, 2006, 02:16 PM
Grayrider,

I must say I was highly impressed with my SA58's stock trigger. Well, I think it's stock. I bought it used, but it hadn't been used much so I doubt the previous owner would have had much work done to it. Its not quite a competition trigger, but its way better than any milsurp gun I ever fired. Nice crisp and clean break.

Rem700SD
November 16, 2006, 02:28 PM
I concur on the improved trigger. I've been spoiled by the Jewell in my Remington. I've got bolt guns that are more acurrate than I am. I'm now in the market for an EBR in .308 that will do head shots at 2-300yds. I am especially needful of such an instrument after having seen Dawn of the Dead, and Land of the Dead...."Zombies, man, they creep me out.." So I need something robust, accurate, and evil looking before...(insert crisis here)

Grayrider
November 16, 2006, 03:49 PM
That might be a new marketting angle: "The SA58: Gauranteed to kill zombies the first time, or your money back!"

:D

I think you would be happy with the SA in any flavor really. Given the right shooter and ammo, all the SA58 series produce respectable groups--even the short guns. There was a review a while back in a magazine of our OSW and the shooter was doing around 1.5" at 100m if I remember with the 11" gun. I will have to see if I can find where that was. Regardless if you order one from DSA directly, please tell them I sent you.

John

Rem700SD
November 16, 2006, 04:31 PM
one last thing. Is there any accuracy difference, or other major difference between the std stocks, and the PARA lowers?

Grayrider
November 16, 2006, 06:00 PM
The stock/lower won't affect accuracy apart from shooter comfort. The para stock is not as comfortable in terms of cheak weld, however I don't consider it that bad. Certainly not like an AK folder. Note that some lowers have different rear sights, such as the Hampton's AR-15A2 style rear sight. I would assume you will use optics in any event, so pick a rear sight that you like for close in work. I like the hooded FAL sight or AR style ones personally due to their larger aperatures than the standard sight.

John

1911JMB
November 17, 2006, 01:42 AM
John,

I do believe you are referring to David Fortier's SOF article viewable here: http://www.dsarms.com/pdf/SOF1002.pdf

Grayrider
November 17, 2006, 11:56 AM
Well I feel dumb. Right on the darn web site. I actually have the magazine at home from DSA and did not notice the article was posted. That is the one, and I personally think if Mr. Fortier says something you can take it to the bank.

John

Grifter116
December 9, 2006, 10:59 PM
The DSA SA58 is NOT the rifle (L1A1) which served me for 12 years in the British Army. The fit, manufacture, quality and accuracy are miles ahead. My rifle has a custom 19" (Badger) medium contour fluted barrel, extreme duty scope mount, my own crisp but safely massaged 5lb trigger and will cloverleaf 168gr Fed. Match at 100 metres. 5 shot strings will group 3/4" with sufficient cooling time. No bollocks, just the facts. My L1A1 would barely do 2" at 100m, even with the good ammo. For those of you who generally get your rifle to group vertically - practice. This only happens with little experience. Buy yourself a full power magnum springer air-rifle and practice shooting 1/4" dots at 40 yards. I find the double-whammy recoil cycle of a break barrel springer is very similar to that of the FAL. Use good ammo, not the ****e surp. stuff you can get from cheaperthandirt (watch out for the effing awful Indian stuff - the wong's don't care, so long as it goes bang) stick to either the Brit or Aussie surp. if you're going to use it.

Father Knows Best
December 10, 2006, 01:11 AM
Get the SA58. You will not be disappointed. I own dozens of rifles, including a half dozen or so very cool "black rifles." My SA58 Para Congo is my favorite, hands down.

Grayrider
December 10, 2006, 11:44 AM
Welcome to the forum Grifter116!

:D

John

Grifter116
December 10, 2006, 08:06 PM
Cheers.

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