why i prefer steel

[gremlin_bros]

and this is why i prefer steel to plastic i know you may call it composit or somthing else but lets face it steel dosent do this. just my openion you may think i am wrong and thats your right but facts dont lie this gun blew apart probably in sombodys hand thats not going to happen to me if i can help it.

[psychophipps]

Wow. I fail to see how reasonable use could have created the aforementioned picture as there is a documented case of a Glock 21 being kicked out of a perfectly stable aircraft at 500 ft. to be retrieved with minimal damage and no loss of function. Other torture tests conducted on Glocks are six months immersion in the ocean, buried in baby powder, etc. Functioned fine after each of the above tests.
There are people here with a lot more experience than myself in such matters so I'll ask a question of them to clarify things a bit...

What are some of the (probably stupid) things that could make a Glock do that when it's being fired?

Mark(psycho)Phipps( HAHAHA! )

[Black Majik]

Steel guns can blow up just as easily with improper loads. :rolleyes:

[Geronimo45]

I recall a 1911 (SA, I believe) somewhere that, when it fired, shot the magazine out of the gun and blew a hole through the grip. Apparently, gun didn't go into battery.
Any gun can blow up, steel or not. That 1911 blew up at the weakest link - right on the grip. There can be improper metallurgy, or impurities in the steel, or somebody handloading way past specs.

[jlh26oo]

Doesn;t someone shoot at the range that has a split ruger SRH hanging on the wall?

Steel is no substitute for safe handling and common sense. I'm glad you found what you like though, whatever the reasoning.

[ccw9mm]

What are we supposed to make of an unattributed picture? Who says it blew up in someone's hand, was crushed under an earth mover, or whatever? Where did this pic come from?

[Blue .45]

Here are some explinations as to why guns blow up.

http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/glock-kb-faq.html#cause

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/taylor/blowups.htm

[gremlin_bros]

thanks for the link tech i do find it verry interesting to note that the use of reloads VOIDS the glock warenty another reason i guess to stick with steel at least there is mass there and that will help to retard an explosive force albeit a small amount but still when your talking that kind of force every little bit helps

[griz]

That doesn't look like a KB to me. The barrel and slide are intact and even still together. Unless you can explain what happened, I'll assume that the plastic part was subjected to some serious abuse. I suspect that if you ran over a 1911 with a tank it would break, and like this picture, it has nothing to do with the reliability of 1911's.

[MCgunner]

Just a Glock flamer. Now, I don't own Glocks, don't particularly like "safe action" triggers, prefer a true DA for actual carry, but I ain't gonna sit here and tell people they're junk. :rolleyes: They are very strong, very accurate, very reliable pistols. I've seen too many of 'em to think otherwise. Every cop in the country seems to carry them, they're popular in IDPA, great guns actually. I still don't want one, but I ain't gonna call 'em junk just because I don't want one for carry.

You can blow up any gun if you're an idiot. Apparently, some idiot had that Glock. :rolleyes: A barrel obstruction is enough to do that to a steel gun.

[Bullet Bob]

Periods are our friends.

[cmidkiff]

I've seen that pic somewhere before... can't remember where. If I recall correctly, it was supposed to be from a case head seperation.

I wouldn't want to be holding it when it KB'ed... but what are the odds, really? How many billions of rounds do you figure have been fired through Glock pistols since they were invented? The percentage of KB's, even if this is a real instance of one, has to be microscopic.

Guns are mechanical devices... they'll all fail at some point.

Oh, did I mention... I dislike Glocks. Don't (and won't) own one. Grip doesn't fit my hand, grip angle is wrong for me, and I think they're ugly. All the same, there's tons of people who I trust that swear by them. Good gun, just doesn't fit me.

It'd sure be a boring world if we all like the same stuff, huh?

[Lucky Derby]

I've only ever seen one gun blow up. It was a steel .357 Magnum Taurus. The cause was a double charge of powder in the reload. I believe that using reloads void most warrantys, not just Glocks. BTW I do not own a Glock. I do own guns with steel frames, polymer frames, and alloy frames.

[aspen1964]

I prefer steel..steel looks better, feels better, & is more durable..I will tolerate plastic grips on some of my vintage guns but thats it...plastic is fine for toy guns but not fine for fine guns...I really don't like alloy frames either...

[SeanMTX]

that will help to retard an explosive force albeit a small amount

Interesting choice of words Gremlin.

[das028]

"I prefer steel..steel looks better, feels better, & is more durable..I will tolerate plastic grips on some of my vintage guns but thats it...plastic is fine for toy guns but not fine for fine guns...I really don't like alloy frames either..."


Ok is one thing to have a opinion. But for you to say that steel is more durable, well, I disagree with that!

[Soybomb]

I hate to be the one to tell you, but steel guns can KB too. I think the neatest looking KB's are from revolvers actually.

[torpid]

Steel isn't strong.
Flesh is stronger.

What is steel compared to the hand that wields it?

Contemplate this on the Tree of Woe.

[foghornl]

Hiding somewhere here on "THR" is a pic/thread about a Ruger Convertible "with the top down". IIRC, that thread was started by THR member Guy Sajer.

(Search forums for "Ruger convertible with top down")

So yes, even super-strong revolvers like Rugers can come apart unexpectedly.

[LkWinnipesaukee]

The Glock Torture Test (http://www.theprepared.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=90&Item)

[Harley Quinn]

The Glock barrel is a different design and not good for lead bullets. Simple they are saying you have been shooting lead in guns for 400 years we offer you, new hi tech. We want higer tech stuff shot out of it. Pretty plain and simple if you ask me.

If you want to sniff and handle lead (which by the way is not good for you) Go for it. Don't buy the Glock in the original configuration. If you want to shoot lead buy a new lead shooting barrel to go with your Glock (after market stuff).

At one time original ment the higher quality and better product, now it means any gunsmith who wants to replicate something at home or in a plant is a better unit. :uhoh:

Glocks are the best hand gun on the market, simple. Price and performance proves it. You don't like it, buy another and quite picking on the one that sets the standard.

My thoughts anyway.

Yesterday 7 yds, 30 rounds slow fire, shoot three, reload, with my model 22 Glock 40, not one out of the 10 ring 2" jagged hole. No X ring to observe. I'll continue to shoot that gun thanks.

HQ:)

[Dravur]

Yep, the Glocks blow up each and every time thery are shot. They are made from Gelignite and painted black. The only reason that of the millions of rounds they have fired, that they have not all blown up is that Gaston Glock only wants them to fail all on the same day, so they all have little timers in them. If I listen really close to my Glocks, I can hear the ticking.

Sarcasm off

If I look at that photo, it certainly looks horrific. Although, I have no idea what was done to get the gun to do that. Was it a case head failure? Was the person firing it in a bowl of jello? Was he shooting handloads made from nitro-glycerin?

I have seen 2 guns blow up, both from squib loads, and both were steel framed revolvers, and oddly enough, both at SASS events. Now, unless Glock is making plastic single action pistols, I fail to see how the failure of one gun can delude one into thinking plastic frames are evil and only Steel is the holy grail of gun making.

So, thank you for the informative peice that a single gun had a single, unexplained failure, but next time, lets not make a sweeping statement that plastic = bad, Steel = good when it is just an opinion.

[Just_a_dude_with_a_gun]

this is why I'll never use a levergun.... Or a brand-new Schofeld.... or an AR15

Point is, If the cartridge is going to play practical jokes, I'd kinda prefer to have the frame absorb and come apart dues to the shrapnel, rathern than become more shrapnel.

http://img33.photobucket.com/albums/v99/smallestminority/kaboom2.jpg

http://www.jrwhipple.com/wow/images/burney_07_13_02_scofield1kaboom.jpg

http://www.ammo-oracle.com/images/Kaboom.jpg

[10-Ring]

I've seen poly-runs, alloy guns and steel guns kb! like Glocks. I've even had one kb! in my hands :what: (not fun!)
Bottom line, w/ the wrong ammo, anything & everything will blow up!

[Chipperman]

Wow Just_a_dude,
Maybe you should stop reloading for your guns. :what:




:neener:

[the pistolero]

I think this might have been posted here before, but does anyone remember the guy from the NY Institute of Technology who put a double-charged round through a Colt Anaconda?
http://iris.nyit.edu/~bithead/anaconda/

I am not a fan of Glocks -- more of a 1911 man myself -- but if it came down to the choice of a Glock or a sharp, heavy stick, I would gladly take the Combat Tupperware. :D

[Harley Quinn]

Boy that is one torture test. I am really impressed.

I feel you ought to be commended for your post, thanks
Do you figure Glock is chuckling, LOL. Probably got a new gun for that little caper.

Now I need to go and read all the fine print.

HQ:)

[Seancass]

Here are some explinations as to why guns blow up.

http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/glock-kb-faq.html#cause

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/taylor/blowups.htm

reading that scared me out of reloading and buying a gun over .22 caliber. i am clearly not responsible enough yet to be messing with that stuff(reloading). really interesting reads none the less.

actually i'll still buy a gun bigger than .22 caliber, but dang, that stuff makes you think. (blah blah, yes a .22 can hurt you, blah blah, i know)

[Wes Janson]

Forgive me, but I'd like to know what the Glock that fell from 500 feet fell onto. Maybe my wild guesses are off the mark, but I'm willing to bet that *ANY* firearm dropped 500 feet onto a hard surface, such as pavement or concrete, is going to be completely and totally trashed.

[Seancass]

it was dropped on a down(harvested) corn feild. it left a pretty big hole, i think it was about a foot into the ground. a rippon tied to the gun helped them find it.

[MCgunner]

reading that scared me out of reloading and buying a gun over .22 caliber. i am clearly not responsible enough yet to be messing with that stuff(reloading). really interesting reads none the less.

I've been reloading for over 40 years of my life. Picked it up from my grandpa and uncle. I ain't blown a gun up yet, knock on wood. There are ways to greatly reduce possible errors. You need a good routine. You can use a less dense powder for the caliber that is impossible to double charge cause it'll overflow the case. But, the main thing is, you have to pay attention to what you're doing. Reloading should not be attempted if you suffer from attention deficit disorder.

I rarely buy factory ammo for anything, but 9mm and I buy 9mm only because it's so cheap. I don't know if I could afford to shoot what I have without reloading. .45 colt is pretty expensive. Heck, I'll cap off 100 rounds of .357 and .38 every couple of weeks. That would get expensive with factory ammo and that's not really a lot of shooting. Dedicated match shooters can REALLY go through a lot of ammo. Reloading on a progressive is the only way to keep up with such a shooting schedule.

I can handload .45 Colt or .45ACP or about any expensive round for between two and three dollars a box. I cast my own bullets of range scrap. The .45ACPs I pick up enough brass at the range to keep me in brass. All I'm paying for is a little powder and a primer. I have to buy .45 colt, .357 brass. I pick up an occasional mess of .38 at the range. Oh, if I were into .40, I'd have brass comin' out my ears. LOL I'm going to start pickin' it up, cleanin' it, and ebayin' it, I think. The PD shoots .40 here and it's even more popular than .45ACP apparently.

[Geronimo45]

Your ears are the best way to make sure your gun is working right. You should be able to tell a good round from a bad by the sound. Be especially careful with handloads and el cheapo ammunition. Anytime it doesn't sound right, drop the mag, rake the slide and lock it back. Look down the barrel and check for obstructions.

[High_Cap]

+1 on the common sense.

I have seen a Sig 220, 226 blow up both on factory loads one due to a double charge other a full working squib. Slide racked, gun cycled just a very poorly made round.

Steel blows up just as easy as plastic the only reason we see Glock Kb's is there is so many out there of the gun. It is a statisics 1 glock in every xxxxxxx's will fail. So if you have 5 million Glocks a few are going to fail. Plus most of those failures are to people not thinking or pushing the limits of what a gun can do.

Also watched a guy shoot a 41 magnum handload the brass seperated each shot. He was grains way beyond MAX.

Max pressures are max for a reason.

[HSMITH]

Just_a_dude_with_a_gun, BRAVO man BRAVO!!!!!!!!!!!!

That just HAS to be the single best response to a GlockisaPOS thread I have ever seen!!!!!!! Well done!!!!!!

[Harley Quinn]

Now is the time for all person's who debate the plastic vs the steel, to understand about Glocks and steel and Colts and steel and Kimbers and steel. Geez.

Guys the steel is the barrel and the slide, I have a slide that I just took off of my Glock, Guess what! It is steel. HMMM

The chamber and barrel are very good steel, the barrels are forged, as in "Hammered", around a mandrel that gives it the lands and groves. This is one of the problems.

Glock; barrel is .001 smaller than the other barrel's. They don't relieve the barrels to make the groves, they beat them in and create a very tough barrel. The barrels of other gun makers can be .002-3 over the size of a called for barrel.

Start with a barrel for a 9mm. It is .355, the glock is .354 and the others are close to .356/7 when finished with the boring process.

When you want a barrel (after market purchase) to shoot lead you are getting one that will be bigger.

The chambers are usually the same but not that barrel. Some say the chambers are not totally supported in the Glock's.
I just read where the amount of Glocks that are currently being used by the various Police Departments is around 2.5 million. That is a lot of hand guns to be shot for qualification and for fun.

I figure that is some kind of record:confused: Not...considering that most departments carried the S&W Revolver or the Colt Revolver for over a century. I remember many times seeing the last revolver plastered on the board, at the range that blew up. LOL

No lead Pleeaaassse, is all they ask. They have actually made some different barrels for department's that demanded it. :what: Rumor???

HQ:)

[James T Thomas]

I've owned one high quality; expensive polymer pistol, but ended up trading it off. Never had strength problems, but I would like to digress to another problem that has not been stated.

Now, up in the attic of my home are boxes and boxes of polymer items.
Toys from my kids. Oh yea! Some of them are with the original packaging and printed on those are the assurances that they were indestructable, kid tested, lifetime warranted, etc.

And they are all junk! Cracked, broken.

Polymer is an organic material and is subject to chemical deterioration through time. They imbed graphite fibers in that stuff for a good reason.
You may not be able to detect hairline and micro cracks in the stuff with your unaided eye, but they will develop.

All the torture tests are short term propositions. Long term; I like my guns to last my lifetime and then some. I'm a suspicious sort, but after having lived through many "well made" automobiles, appliances, and all that stuff, in my life, I've become aware of planned obsolescence by those greedy for my money.

I know that's cynical, but do you really think all those european manufacturers, and even the good old USA -foreign owned companies will make something for you that is truly lasting? I mean, from my older age perspective, people do forget quite readily, and life goes on. All of us who drive Mitsubishi, Honda, etc., -remember Pearl Harbour?

When those who are young age shooters now reach middle age, the new generation will not even consider that your "old" plastic guns are falling apart.
And besides, those companies are out of business, been bought out by another firm; that kind of thing, so there will be no responsiblility or reputation issues.

Why, the new and improved stuff is so much technologically improved that that there is no comparison with that outdated stuff.

Make mine steel. Forged. Heat treated. Perhaps my grandchildren will marvel at grandad's great guns.

[ugaarguy]

Now, up in the attic of my home are boxes and boxes of polymer items.
Toys from my kids. Oh yea! Some of them are with the original packaging and printed on those are the assurances that they were indestructable, kid tested, lifetime warranted, etc.

And they are all junk! Cracked, broken.

Polymer is an organic material and is subject to chemical deterioration through time. They imbed graphite fibers in that stuff for a good reason.
You may not be able to detect hairline and micro cracks in the stuff with your unaided eye, but they will develop.

So it's the material that has caused the problem, not the neglect? If you were to leave a forged steel pistol in the attic for a decade or two it would be rusted beyond use. A toy made of lower quality metal would be worthless. Metals are also subject to chemical deterioration by oxidation. A gun frame made of high quality polymer will likewise outlast toys made of cheap polymer. You don't build toys to the same quality as firearms, regardless of material. Anything that's neglected will deteriorate, again regardless of material.

[James T Thomas]

You may be correct, ugaarguy; that there is cheaper polymer in some toys than in guns. On the other hand, it may be the same polymer, with only the addition of the binding graphite fibers.

Some of my kids toys were athletic stuff, "super sturdy" and yet...

Now, most oxidation occurs on the surface while the chemical change I am referring to occurs within the entire interior.

I can apply a good coat of oil or wax to hold off rust.
What can be done in the way of preventative maint. for plastics?

Sorry if I've "stepped on your Glock," but my intention was not criticism, but to offer something for consideration to the younger and enthusiastic shooters.

As stated, it is why I like steel guns.

[ugaarguy]

On the other hand, it may be the same polymer, with only the addition of the binding graphite fibers.
I can apply a good coat of oil or wax to hold off rust.
What can be done in the way of preventative maint. for plastics?
I wish I had a concrete answer. I can't find anything specifically recommended for maintaining polymer gun frames. I'd also like to know how much the addition of the graphite fibers will increase the durability. I've read that Glock armorers use Breakfree CLP, so I would think that would be a good way to maintain both the metal and plastic. The military also uses CLP for both the metal and plastic parts of the M-16, further indicating that it's a good product for maintaining plastic/polymer gun parts. Maybe a chemist here on THR could give us better info.

Sorry if I've "stepped on your Glock," but my intention was not criticism, but to offer something for consideration to the younger and enthusiastic shooters.
You didn't. My Glock went away, not because it was polymer, but because I like other guns better. I understand where you're coming from I was just pointing out that anything that's neglected will have a greatly reduced life span. Now will well maintained metal outlast equally well maintained plastic? Probably, but again, hopefully someone can get us more concrete info. I think we're more or less on the same page. By the way, I like my old metal pinned barrel S&W revolveres quite a bit. :D

[Borachon]

Steel isn't strong.
Flesh is stronger.

What is steel compared to the hand that wields it?

Contemplate this on the Tree of Woe.


"What is best in Life?"

"Crush all Glocks!
See them melted before you!
Hear the lamentations of the owners!"

[jlh26oo]

And besides, those companies are out of business, been bought out by another firm; that kind of thing, so there will be no responsiblility or reputation issues.


True dat. You don't see steel-strong S&W changing hands, or having any kind of reputation issues.

Meanwhile, I can barely keep up with all the political stank stirring and corporate buyouts Glock has been through the past 20 years; moreso if we go back to the 60's.

[JohnKSa]

Polymer is an organic material and is subject to chemical deterioration through time. They imbed graphite fibers in that stuff for a good reason.
You may not be able to detect hairline and micro cracks in the stuff with your unaided eye, but they will develop.All polymers are not the same--just as all metals aren't the same.

In other words, there are lots of different kinds of plastics with a huge range of aging and wear characteristics just as there are many different kinds of metals with widely varying properties.

Your experience with cheap plastic toys told you as much about the characteristics of the polymer gun frames as you would learn about metal receivers by observing that your kids' metal toy cars made of zinc alloy break easily.

[boomstik45]

Well, in a polymer framed gun, the polymer is more likely to give, depending on the nature of the explosion. In a steel framed gun, like a Beretta, you have a worse potential for injury in many cases (not all cases). For instance, Berettas in such a situation like to sling the slide back at you....not good. Ask the military. Same thing with Smith and Wesson or various 1911s. It often has more to do with the gun design as to what breaks under pressure. I'd rather have burns and what not on my hands, along with maybe a few minor cuts from an exploded polymer gun than a steel slide imbeded in my forehead. :uhoh: . But to each his own. :neener:

[JohnKSa]

The vast majority of Beretta autopistols are aluminum or polymer framed. I don't believe they currently catalog any steel-framed autopistols.

There were something like 10 incidents of slide separations in the EARLY phase of military service of the Beretta M9 (which is an aluminum framed pistol). Most of those occurred during testing. Beretta immediately made a mod to the gun which prevents the slide from coming off the back of the frame in the very unlikely event of a separation.

That said, your main point is well taken. There is an argument to be made that a polymer frame is an advantage in a catastrophic incident in that it will tend to absorb energy rather than transfer it to the shooter and will not turn to shrapnel as readily.

[torpid]

"What is best in Life?"

"Crush all Glocks!
See them melted before you!
Hear the lamentations of the owners!"


:D

[Harley Quinn]

I think the Glocks look like they really flew apart, when in fact they did.
But if you look at other picture's of steel, they are pretty wicked also.
I think I will pass on that experience, thanks.

I probably will not be able to shoot again, due to worry. :neener: NOT:rolleyes:

HQ:D

[carterbeauford]

That must've been one of them ceramic Glocks :neener:

[boomstik45]

John, I did know that some berettas are polymer framed. But I didn't know about the aluminum part. I was really thinking about the slide, and since all slides are steel (or am I wrong there too), I guess the frame part doesn't matter when you're talking a slide separation. I just know that beretta did have that problem at one time. I didn't know it was only 10 incidents, I thought it was more than that. Fact is, all arguments aside, any gun can blow and is therefore a catastrophic and potentially tragic event. I don't want ANY gun to blow up, but I do think that any pictures or footage of a destroyed particular type of framed gun is a poor argument for a preference in the greater scheme of things. I like steel, alloys, aluminum, and polymer. And most people don't know that polymer is a space-aged plastic known as Nylon 6. Couldn't prove it, but I doubt anybody's old toys is made out of it. And like you said, weapons aren't made of the same things: if steel, then the finest steel. If "plastic" then the finest "plastic." Well, okay, not every manufacturer... but these are weapons, and while they may or may not last a so-called lifetime, they can be fixed or replaced if they fail during a lifetime. They are NOT, however designed for failure I would have to say. At least not the better ones. But again, to each his own. If everyone loved all the same stuff, supply and demand would be crazy.

[boomstik45]

Crush all Glocks? What are you a specialized gun grabber? :neener: And just how do you presume to obtain all of them? :p Don't bother...the answer is likely to get you shot at in some places.:neener: ;)

[Tactical Ninja]

Some of my kids toys were athletic stuff, "super sturdy" and yet...

And yet, technology surely could not have advanced in the, what, 20, 30, 40 years since you last played with that stuff? JohnKSA made a good point when he said...

Your experience with cheap plastic toys told you as much about the characteristics of the polymer gun frames as you would learn about metal receivers by observing that your kids' metal toy cars made of zinc alloy break easily.

Things wear out, things degrade, and things break due to misuse or neglect. I have no doubt that any well-made gun, be it a Colt or a Glock, will outlast its owner if used and cared for properly - but neither will last forever. :)

[huntsman]

and this is why i prefer steel to plastic i know you may call it composit or somthing else but lets face it steel dosent do this. just my openion you may think i am wrong and thats your right but facts dont lie this gun blew apart probably in sombodys hand thats not going to happen to me if i can help it.

If god wanted handguns made of plastic; S Colt and J Browning would have been injection molders ;)

[Harley Quinn]

Was it the same god or a different one?

HQ:uhoh:

[MCgunner]

Was it the same god or a different one?

HQ

I'm not sure, I haven't read the "other book".

[chongfa]

Well I am an organic chemist, who is currently working in the field of polymer research at Texas A&M University To answer the question from ugaarguy, there is nothing that you really need to do in order to keep the polymer frame last longer. Polymer is much much much harder to oxidize than steel. Overtime the oxygen in the air could potentially oxidize the polymer over time, but it is not in the time frame that will matter to normal human being down to 3rd or even 4th generation. So unless you purposely pour a concentrate solution of peroxide or chromic acid onto the pistol, there shouldn't be a problem.


Now an answer to Mr. James T Thomas, metal is much much easier to oxidize over plastic. An experiment to prove this theory is to pour a solution of vinegar (weak acetic acid) on to a piece of steel or iron and regular old plastic toy and wait for about 3-4 hours, there will be rust form on the surface on that piece of iron because you have turned your iron to iron oxide because you have oxidized the metal. Evem stainless steel will rust over time.

The truth is that I don't know what kind of polymer Glock is made out of. It is probably a trade secret. I can only assumed that it is a crosslinking polymer of some sort, which made it almost impervious to most type of organic solvents and very inert to most chemical reactions. I know that glock polymer frame will stand up to acetone, but I refuse to subject my G19 to any more polar solvents.

To say polymers are weaker than steel is a subjective thing. Chemists can design polymer to have many desired properties, to be weak, strong, high tensile strength, impact resistant, water resistant, or water soluble. Yes, Mr. Thomas said that plastic toys are easily broken over time. It might be the fact that they are made out of PET, which is prone to hydrolyzed with water over time and cause it to become weaker or even cheaper plastic like polypropylene.

I suspected that glock polymer is made out of crosslinking polymer of some sort with trade secret additives to give its strong properties. However everything will break, if you abuse it enough. You can't assume that all polymers are the same. Even one of the famous strong polymer such as Kevlar, which is made out of aromatic polyamide will become weaker overtime when it is exposed to moisture because water will break amide bonds.

Not all plastics are the same, they are designed to do their job and reduce costs. Because polymers are cheaper than steel, cheaper to process, and easier to modified chemically. Look at bullet proof glass, they are made of polycarbonate. It will stop bullets, not because it is stronger than steel, but it is because of its inherent property to flex and absorb the blow. I am not going to convince any steel gun lovers here to change their mind. However I would like to spread the scientific knowledges on this topic and at least to convince you that plastic in a glock is not the same as plastics in toys. They are very decent substitutes for steel in certain part of a handgun.

[James T Thomas]

Dear Chongfa:

There is confusion here somewhere. I had never questioned whether polymer would oxidize more rapidly than steel. I don't think I did.

Being an organic chemist as you are, you are aware that plastics, particularly uncured ones, undergo continued chemical reaction; transformation with time, exposure to sunlight, and many other factors. The insulation on electric cables is a good example. Now, I do not know the specific process of deterioration that may occur with polymer, perhaps you do. However, I am aware that plastics, in general, are more inert, in general than steel -as you stated.

I suppose I had not been explicit enough, but plastics, unless "cured" by irradiation at the factory, or other methods, often either soften through time, or harden to embrittlement of some degree.

You know from dealing with them that organics often undergo their chemical reactions over long periods of time, say, compared to inorganic reactions, and so some lump of plastic may just sit on the shelf and is undergoing internal changes in composition. It's their nature. We cannot observe it from day to day, but return in months or years and it becomes evident.
I once had plastic binder covers become sticky and smear all over my books that they were in contact with.

What would be a typical I.U.P.A.C. nomenclature for the pistol polymers we are discussing?

Fiberglass is imbeded in polypropylene so that Corvettes do not crumble going down the highway, and graphite fibers reinforce that polymer in pistols so that the micro cracks do not propagate and a "failure" insues.

I prefer the homogenous metal materials to composite substrate technology.

[boomstik45]

Very interesting Chongfa. Makes some sense to me, but then someone will only say that I'm hearing what I want to hear. Whatever. I just know that there's no way that something like this rises to the forefront and becomes useful to all or most of the top firearm manufacturers. How do you explain the use of polymer by HK, Walther, Springfield, Sig, Glock, Smith and Wesson, Ruger, and so many more? And remember, companies like Ruger and Smith and Wesson have been KNOWN for their steel guns. They are still probably the top or among the top revolver makers. 'Nuff said. You don't have to like something, but it is narrow-minded and silly to not respect it if it works.

[James T Thomas]

Dear Boomstick45:

As to why so many manufacturers are current using polymer; the last paragraph from chongfa answers your question. -That and I suspect that today's "disposeable" consumerism society may also be a reason.

Take a review here on THR at the thriving interest in the "old" reliable, last a lifetime firearms. Somebody knows something.

I don't have grandkids yet, but from an older perspective, I would be cautious with all the latest and newest things out there. When they started to make the stuff in colors to match my wife's lipstick, and it sold, I began to look twice at what was really going on.

[chongfa]

Dear Mr. Thomas:

I know that you didn't say that plastic oxidize faster than iron, but you mention oxidation, so I just want to be clear about that topic. I also want to answer question from ugaarguy about treating the polymer to prevent oxidation.

I am on the research side of using and designing polymers, I am not familiar with the curing process with radiation. A lot of these curing processes are trade secret and not widely scholarly published or shared. Often they are empirical methods by trial and error and nobody really know how they really work. However I am pretty positive that not all plastic must be cured by radiation. However certain type of curing process probably help the polymer molecules to align and stack better (this is my speculation). Keep in mind, even steel need to be heat treated in order to be strong, in my opinion, it is not that much different from a polymer curing process.

Not all polymer will be deterioration by light, only the polymer with highly conjugated double bonds will absorb light and become weaker overtime. However chemists usually designed them specifically to do that, so they will degrade over time, so it will not effect the environment.

Even the cheap polyethylene(PE), polyvinylchoride(PVC), polystyrene, and polypropylene can stay expose out in the open in the element and it will not be degraded for 500-1000 years. They are so hard to degrade, it becomes a big waste problem. If they are degraded that easily by light, then we won't have this big waste problems. They can only be degrade by radical depolymerization (which is a long process by using just sunlight) by the light or slowly oxidized by oxygen. That can be said to most stainless steel or steel. If you leave a piece of steel expose to the elements for that long, they will rust. If you don't trust me, please leave your plastic bottle of water outside in the sun for a year and see what happen. I can guaranteed that it won't disappear or visibly degraded on you and your water bottle is made out of PET (it is probably one of the most susceptable to light and water degradation).

As for Glock polymer, something tell me that it is probably a trade secret. So if it is a trade secret, you probably don't really know what the structure of it is, therefore IUPAC name of it will not be known.

Your plastic binder smearing all over your book phenomenon appears probably due to the glass transition temperature of the polymer is reached and it simply melted. It didn't degrade, just simply melt. You can't compare that to glock polymer, which is probably a crosslinking polymer of some sort and they will burn before they melt. So you can't really compare your binder to glock. Because it is like comparing a piece of coal to diamond. Coal and diamond are both made out of pure carbons, but they are different in chemical structures, therefore, diamond is much tougher and prettier than a lump of coal.

Yes, using polymer is way cheaper than using steel. Manufacturer cut costs tremendously by using polymer. It is much easier to cast a polymer than casting or machining a piece of steel. However the cost saving is passed on to us consumer. I can't say that glock polymer is tougher than steel because I don't really know what it is. But I can say that it is a viable alternative.

I really enjoy this discussion tremendously. I don't mean to pick your argument apart and critisize them. I just want to answer each of your questions in the most clear and concise manners. I just wanna answer questions about polymers as much as a polymer chemist can.

[JohnKSa]

http://www.glockfaq.com/generalinfo.htm

"One source says "more highly guarded than the Coke formula". From 3 human and 5 technical sources, Glock uses an out-sourced proprietary hybrid polymer mix with a base of Nylon 6. The frames are cast and offer high strength, wear resistance, abrasion resistance, and good resiliency, good ductility and toughness. Fracture mechanics are excellent with defect ratios below 1. Do not compare to extruded Nylons because it is different. Casting prices range from $3-$50/pound depending on process and intricacy. The Glock is considered highly-intricate due to imbedded metallic components. Offers long term performance at elevated and depressed temperatures. Chemically stable in a majority of environments, attacked directly by strong acids and bases (better than steel actually). UV exposure results in degradation over an extended period of time. 2-3% carbon black virtually eliminates UV degradation and Carbon-Black does not become readily absorbed in Nylons offering higly increased useful life spans. Loss of mechanical properties with 2% Carbon-Black is less than 0.05% on an elevated UV exposure test equivalent to approximately 100 years. Hyrdolytically attacked by water in excess of 120 degrees."

They actually test this stuff. ;)

http://www.remtek.com/arms/glock/model/9/17/index.htm

" In addition, the plastic frame's elastic qualities absorb a significant portion of the counter recoiling forces during firing. The Glock frame is also more durable under the distortion of hard shock and dropping than steel or aluminum, having successfully passed a two-meter drop test from all angles of contact."

[carpettbaggerr]

"What is best in Life?"

"Crush all Glocks!
See them melted before you!
Hear the lamentations of the owners!"

No one in this world can you trust. Not men, not women, not beasts. [Points to Glock.] But this... this you can trust. :D

[huntsman]

Was it the same god or a different one?

There's only 1 true GOD, The great "Iam" the god of Abraham, Isaac & Jacob the Alpha & Omega. The one who created man but cornel Colt made equal.

[Harley Quinn]

There were many guns out there before colt arrived on the scene. The
cartridge is the thing that did the deed.

John Brown and John Browning were big names is terms of guns and gun making, one built them, the other used them. Both zealots in their own right.

Funny how the god of Abraham plays such a large part from both side's of the problem we are having now. Brother against brother, things sure are screwed up big time in the land of Ur.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ur

Just as long as we have man on the face of this earth we will have a reason to fight. Sad, but true.

Gary:confused:

[Borachon]

No one in this world can you trust. Not men, not women, not beasts. [Points to Glock.] But this... this you can trust.

Black Lotus Pistol Dealer:
The only Glocks I know of are those from Georgia and their cursed plastic. Their evil has spread to every city. Two or three years ago it was just another pistol cult, now... they're everywhere. :D

[the pistolero]

The only Glocks I know of are those from Georgia and their cursed plastic. Their evil has spread to every city. Two or three years ago it was just another pistol cult, now... they're everywhere.
Kinda like the kudzu, eh, Borachon? :D

[boomstik45]

John T. James. It was a rhetorical question, mostly. For one thing, I never said I didn't like steel. I said that polymer is working. Can you prove it isn't? If you prefer steel and steel alone, then stick with it...and hope that somebody doesn't mix it with some other metal and give you an impure weapon. I know why so many companies are using polymer in their weapons: popularity (sales), less cost, and oh yeah......it works. It's not exactly what I'd call new either, unless of course something has to be 50yrs old or older to not be called new...yeesh. As far as today's disposable consumerism society, yeah, that pretty much applies to everything, does it not? And we made it that way, ALL of us. In the meantime, I guess we better keep a watch out for all the polymer framed weapons 'cause they could just crumble any minute now. At least RUST won't be as big an issue.