[emjimb]

Anyone have one -do i want one? -seems like it would be great range gun and articles I have read indicate that even the Secret Service is now using it as their duty weapon and a lot of off duty LEO's are buying them up -------Thanks in advance !!

[Reed1911]

It is a fun little gun. SS using it? Not according to my info, but you never know. I think that is more of a rumor than fact. No US LEO has added it to the "approved" list TMK either.
All that being said, it is little more than a CF .22 Mag. Sure it holds 20 rounds, and they are quite accurate, but I would not use it as a carry gun for S.D.. I think it is limited to paper and varmints and that is it. Yes, Yes I know it was meant to be a Mil side arm, but unless you load it up with higher quality bullets than are currentaly available as loaded ammo, it is a poor choice. Additionaly, its main purpose was to defeat body armor, not really to drop a human,

[Smurfslayer]

I have one. I suggest looking for a gun show bargain. It's a good gun overall, with good handling qualities. Some of the loads can legitimately push 2000 fps MV. Here's my take on it...

Ammo is EXPENSIVE. Not quite 500 S&W expensive, but expensive nonetheless. And, it goes MUCH faster than the 500 ammo :evil:

Most available have a magazine safety.

The gun is a hammer fired, concealed hammer semi-auto. Figure that one. Why is this significant? THink 'decocking'...

The safety is ambidextrous right where your trigger finger would index. This is different from any other s/a I am aware of. I'm not commenting that it is worse, or better, just different.

You can get the CMMG +10 magazine extension :what: for 30 shots + 1 in the tube. THAT'S tactical :neener: It only extends about 1.5 inches below the grip for this...

The gun is as accurate as you are, no doubt. The trigger is single action, has very little creep and a crisp let off. 5 pounds maybe?

I've had some reliability issues --ONLY with reloads-- all factory stuff has fed, fired and ejected perfectly ( and way far away to make it more difficult to reload, no doubt )...

I wouldn't pay full price for it again. Look for one at a gun show for sub 800. $700 is a good buy I think, but check gunbroker and the local shows...

HTH

[f3rr37]

I bought the IOM version (rounded trigger guard, no longer in production) back in May, I've put about 400 rounds through it without any problems or show of problems at all.

As for the ammo, yeah its a little spendy, but the prices are coming down. The round (SS190, not legal for civilian purchase) was designed to penetrate body armor, the standard round you find on the market for civilian purchase is the SS195 (hollow point) and the SS197 (Sporting round, plastic tip). The SS195 travels at about 2150+fps (from the handgun), while the SS197 is a tad slower due to the bullet's increased weight.

And yes, the SS does carry the round, though I've only seen pictures with them carrying the P90 and not the FiveseveN handgun.

More about the FiveseveN, the recoil is significantly lower than a 9mm, making follow up shots very fast and the sights come right back on target. The SS195 round is classified as a hollow point, but it generally doesn't expand like a normal hollow point, it tends to yaw when it hits the target, creating a large area to cause tissue damage. This also allows the projectile to NOT over penetrate. The round tends to stay inside the body expending all of its energy inside its target. I've recovered a few rounds that I've shot into a dirt pile, and they were facing the opposite direction.

Just my .02, great handgun, going to use it to CC when I get my permit.

[buzz_knox]

The Secret Service uses the P90 PDW on a limited basis, along with several other weapon systems. The primary sidearm remains the Sig P229 .357Sig. As for cops buying FN 5.7 pistols, some may, but it's a matter of people getting the new thing and/or buying into the hype.

As stated before, the 5.7 round was developed solely to provide support personnel with a weapon that had a longer range and greater penetration than a pistol, but was not as heavy as a rifle in the event that the lines were penetrated. It's anti-personnel capabilities have been highly overrated and nearly every LEO unit that has adopted and used it has had . . . less than joyous things to say about the round. The Secret Service hasn't said anything about why it has adopted (to some degree) the P90 but it also apparently hasn't used it in an actual firefight yet. We'll see what happens after it does.

[buzz_knox]

The SS195 round is classified as a hollow point, but it generally doesn't expand like a normal hollow point, it tends to yaw when it hits the target, creating a large area to cause tissue damage. This also allows the projectile to NOT over penetrate. The round tends to stay inside the body expending all of its energy inside its target. I've recovered a few rounds that I've shot into a dirt pile, and they were facing the opposite direction.


Most bullets do this. It's a natural consequence of a round entering soft targets and becoming unstable. When used on humans, the 5.7 has demonstrated less than admirable results.

[f3rr37]

It's anti-personnel capabilities have been highly overrated and nearly every LEO unit that has adopted and used it has had . . . less than joyous things to say about the round. The Secret Service hasn't said anything about why it has adopted (to some degree) the P90 but it also apparently hasn't used it in an actual firefight yet. We'll see what happens after it does.

I have yet to see where its capabilities have been highly overrated, each round SS190,SS192/SS195,SS196,SS197 all have their special uses, SS190 being the armor piercing round that gives the gun a bad name in politics, even though you can't go out and buy a box, only for Mil/LE purchase. I know a few officers that carry the 5.7 as a duty weapon and wouldn't give it up for anything else.

When used on humans, the 5.7 has demonstrated less than admirable results.

Can you show me a time that it was used on a human and had less than admirable results?

[f3rr37]

The FN FiveseveN Forum (www.fivesevenforum.com), has compiled a list of a few agencies using the 5.7x28 system:

P90

Anderson County, SC SD
Atlanta, GA PD
Austin, TX PD
Batesburg-Leesville, SC PD
Belleview, NE PD
Bentonville, AR PD
Benton County, AR SO
Birmingham, AL PD
Bolton, NC PD
Bryan, TX PD
Burbank, CA PD
Camden, SC PD
Charles County, MD SO
Charleston County, SC SO
Chula Vista, CA PD
Columbia, MO PD
Creve Coeur, MO PD
Daleville, AL PD
Defense Protective Service
Denton, TX UNT PD
Doraville, GA PD
Duluth, GA PD
Edina, MN PD
Edmund, OK PD
Federal Protective Service
Grand Forks, ND PD
Greenwood County, SC SD
Hallsville, MO PD
Houston, TX PD
Indianapolis, IN PD
Jacksonville, FL PD
Jefferson County, OH SO
Las Vegas, NV PD
Lawrenceville, GA PD
Lexington, SC PD
Little Rock, AR PD
Missouri State Highway Patrol
North Little Rock, AR PD
Olathe, KS PD
Palm Beach, FL PD
Palm Beach County, FL SO
Pasco County, FL SO
Ramsey County, MN SO
Richland County, SC SO
Salt Lake City, UT PD
San Francisco, CA PD
Sioux Falls, SD PD
Sparta, NJ PD
Tennessee State Police ERT
Washoe County, NV SO
West Columbia, SC PD
Zephyr Hills, FL PD



Five-seveN

Atlanta, GA PD
Belleview, NE PD
Benton County, AR SO
Bentonville, AR PD
Columbia, MO PD
Creve Coeur, MT PD
Davidson, NC PD
Davis County, UT SO
Duluth, GA PD
Greenwood County, SC SO
Jennings County, IN SD
Lawrenceville, GA PD
Lexington, SC PD
Oakdale, ME PD
Richland County, SC SO
Slidell, LA PD
Whiteoak Burrough, PA PD

[buzz_knox]

On fivesevenforum.com, there is a lot of hype about the 5.7, including the "fact" that in every shooting, it's been completely effective. FN's own sales literature concerning the 5.7 is to the same effect. Some of the individuals who were involved in said shootings have stated (on tacticalforums.com and lightfighter.net) that it was decidely ineffective. The results were . . . not spectacular. On at least a couple occasions, individuals took multiple hits (including hits to the chest) from a P90 and were in sufficiently good shape to ask the cops not to continue shooting them. The units that encountered these individuals have largely shelved the P90 and gone back to more effective weapons such as the MP5 and M4.

The ballistics tests done by various groups and subject matter experts (Doctors Roberts and Fackler, and the FBI as examples) bear these results out. The 5.7 is roughly equivalent to a .22 magnum (yes, the hottest loads run around 300 fps faster, but the weight as light so the energy difference is minimal and effectively irrelevant) so the results should be the same as shooting someone with a .22 magnum.

If you are comfortable carrying a .22 magnum, have at it.I've fired the 5.7 and enjoyed the experience. It's a fun piece of kit and if ammunition were more affordable, I'd get one as well as a PS90 (although the manual of arms for that system sucks). As it is, though, my Glock 19 is easier to use (no funky safety to finger down and a better grip) and feed, and fires a more effective caliber (especially when quality JHPs are used).

[buzz_knox]

The FN FiveseveN Forum (www.fivesevenforum.com), has compiled a list of a few agencies using the 5.7x28 system:


Officers from at least a few of those departments have stated the P90 was purchased, used for a very brief period, and shelved when its limitations became known. Jacksonville FL is one of the agencies listed as using the P90 but their officers have made it clear that it gets left behind. That forum doesn't mention that tidbit, does it? And if you look in the shooting results section, you won't see the aforementioned failures.

That forum is a 5.7 advocates forum. Take it for what it's worth. Personally, I spent a lot of time there and on other sites where the 5.7 was discussed, and doing my own research. Everywhere but on that forum, the 5.7 is viewed with quite a bit of sceptisim or outright derision. But everyone agrees that FN has done an admirable job of taking an M1 Carbine replacement (with a less effective round) and selling it as the next big thing. Personally, I blame Stargate SG-1. ;)

[f3rr37]

According to this article by a Houston,TX SWAT member who used the P90 in a confrontation the round performed exactly as it was designed.

Experiences with the FN P90


By Sandy Wall


The Houston, TX, Police Department was the first American law enforcement agency to deploy with the FN P90 submachine gun on its SWAT team. We received five P90s into our inventory in 1999 along with several thousand 5.7mm rounds of ammunition. After a short period of in-house testing and training, the P90s became operational within our entry team elements. The P90 has been utilized primarily at the point man positions where its CQB features are best utilized. The first time I saw a P90, I couldn’t help but notice how unique and interesting it looked. It was fun to shoot and no one could argue about the innovations the engineers at Fabrique National in Belgium had featured on this weapon. The fact remained, however, that the 5.7x28mm cartridge was unproven. We had all the energy data and gelatin shots, but had no documentation on what the round would do on a real human body. It may sound morbid, but in the tactical world the proof is in the real deal. That missing element was always in the back of our minds. Well, the jury is now in. Houston SWAT was involved with the first and only lethal engagement with the weapon to date.

I first wrote an article on the P90 for the Texas Tactical Police Officers Association (TTPOA) Command Magazine. Then, as well as now, I carried a P90 as my primary weapon. I have shot thousands of 5.7mm rounds in training and continue to deploy with the weapon on every SWAT situation and high-risk warrant I respond to. I concede that the P90 is not all things to all people. However, for what I do, as a SWAT officer in a major city, it’s a great weapon. Its CQB features are many, so I will just touch on the high points. The weapon system, including both the P90 submachine gun and the FiveseveN pistol, is built around the SS190 5.7x28mm cartridge. One of the unique features about this system is that the cartridge can be fired from an assault rifle or a handgun. The SS190 version of the 5.7mm cartridge uses a 31-grain, steel jacketed, steel tipped, aluminum core bullet. It is capable of 2350fps and it can defeat level IIIA body armor at 200 meters. The bullet contains no lead for environments that prohibit toxins. The round is not cheap but as the weapon becomes more popular here in the United States, the cost should come down. Winchester will soon assemble the 5.7mm round from imported FN components and also plans to make a hollowpoint round.

The 5.7mm round has 379 ft-lbs of energy, compared to 1300 ft-lbs for the 5.56mm NATO. The recoil from the 5.7mm round is much less than even the 9mm. The SS190 ball is not only flat shooting, but also capable of penetrating car doors and auto-glass with minimum ricochet potential. In contrast, the bullet is designed to stay intact and start a controlled tumble once it penetrates a soft medium, thus reducing any over-penetration worries. The SS190 ball penetrates between 11 and 13.5 inches of gelatin, compared to between 17 and 22 inches of penetration for the M855 dual-core 5.56mm NATO round. Upon impact with soft targets, the 5.7mm ball tumbles one time, base over point. This transfers energy and limits over-penetration. The 5.7mm ball produces a wound cavity about the size and shape of the best 9mm 115 grain JHP +P+, except the peak occurs at a deeper penetration. In the one shooting we had with the P90, the bullet performed well. In fact, the bullet performed exactly as it was designed. The autopsy provided detailed information about the wound cavity and travel of the bullets. None of the 5.7mm rounds fragmented and as far as we can tell, none exited either. The shooting itself was a violent confrontation with many rounds exchanged between the suspect and the react team. The suspect was hit multiple times with both 5.56mm and 5.7mm rounds. The P90 works from a simple blow-back bolt in a bullpup design. It is as easy to break down and clean as any gun you will ever shoot. I have been amazed at how little residue I find even after hundreds of rounds. I find less residue than in most weapons fired only 50 rounds. The simplicity of the action provides almost no chance of malfunctions. We literally tried to make one of ours malfunction by refusing to clean it. After several thousand rounds we couldn’t stand it anymore, broke down and cleaned it anyway. To this day, after thousands of rounds down range, I have yet to experience a malfunction with my P90. The ergonomic design provides comfort and speed on target but does not compromise accuracy. It can hold a respectable group at 100 yards and the recoil is about one third of an M4, and even less than a 9mm MP5. Recoil management and time back on target is easy. It has a two-stage trigger in full-auto mode that allows the shooter to fire single or full-auto fire with just trigger manipulation— no more accidentally going full-auto because you did not realize where your selector was positioned. With the P90 the shooter has to commit a conscious effort to pull through the semi-auto stage to the full auto mode.

Every feature of the weapon can be operated equally from the right or left hand position. Spent casings eject straight down, which makes my partners on the firing line happy. No more doing the hot-brass-down-my-shirt dance. FN even has a slick little pouch that neatly attaches to the eject port. It will catch about a hundred casings before you have to dump it. The 50 round magazine almost eliminates the need to carry extra ammo. The magazine is translucent, which allows the shooter to know how many rounds remain with just a glance, even while you operate the weapon because the magazine sits right on top of the weapon just below the shooter’s cheek well. The P90 comes with a two or three rail option for after market accessories and an optional built in laser. One of the drawbacks of the weapon is poor iron sights and I don’t really care for the optional factory optics. We popped them off and went with EOTech Holo sights. Normally, I’m not big on lasers, but in this case I use my built-in laser as a good back up to my holo sights should it malfunction.

When I talk to operators from other agencies about weapons, I now seldom have to explain what weapon I’m talking about when I mention the P90 as my primary. Obviously the folks at FN are getting the message out and the weapon is now familiar. If you operate in an environment like the one I operate in, you can’t go wrong with a P90 slung at the low-ready.

Sandy Wall is the past president of the TTPOA.

Well I'm glad to hear that you've had the chance to fire the 5.7 for your self and make your own conclusions, as a lot of opposition to the 5.7 are from those who haven't even fired the round. So I'll atleast give you that much :neener:

[buzz_knox]

You do know that Sandy Wall now works for FN, right, and apparently did so at the time the article in question was written?

More importantly, here is the relevant portion of the article:

The suspect was hit multiple times with both 5.56mm and 5.7mm rounds.

If the suspect was shot with both 5.56 and 5.7, it becomes effectively impossible to tell what the "winning" round was.

[f3rr37]

The part that is relevant part is:

The autopsy provided detailed information about the wound cavity and travel of the bullets. None of the 5.7mm rounds fragmented and as far as we can tell, none exited either.

[buzz_knox]

So, we've got a .224 round that is travelling at or around 2,350 (at the very best and only if fired from a P90) and which doesn't fragment.

That amptly describes a castrated 5.56, and a caliber which is likely to cause "icepick" injuries. Strangely enough, that's what the ballistic tests indicated the 5.7 would do. It's nice when predicitions and actual results mesh, isn't it? ;)

Once again, the 5.7 does nothing that a 9mm JHP will not do, and does not do what a 9mm JHP can do . . . except cost more.

[HorseSoldier]

Yeah, that article is a little vague on telling details.

As Buzz Knox noted, there's no mention of 5.7mm actually putting the guy down. All we know is that it took multiple rounds of that and 5.56mm to put him down. That's not necessarily a ding against the 5.7x28, as it happens somestimes regardless of caliber, but it's not a real feather in its cap, either.

Even more suspicious to me is how he waxes eloquent about how 5.7x28 is designed to tumble once on impact exactly like every other spitzer bullet out there.

The part that is relevant part is:


The autopsy provided detailed information about the wound cavity and travel of the bullets. None of the 5.7mm rounds fragmented and as far as we can tell, none exited either.


Okay. Let's say a police shooting somehow involves shooting someone with a bunch of 7.62x51mm rounds and some .22 Long Rifle rounds. I can say with absolute certainty that an autopsy would provide detailed information about the wound cavities and travel of the .22 caliber GSWs.

That doesn't mean the .22 LR bullet(s) had anything to do with dropping the bad guy. His statement is kind of like the spitzer bullet issue I noted above -- read it with a bit of skepticism and the basic response is simply "so what?" as he's just stating the obvious.

[BrokenArrow]

My two centavos...

No matter how you slice the 5.7, it is not as effective as the 5.56, and plenty are complaining about that. Again. Or still...

The 5.7 duty round is AP and will not "overpenetrate" like 9mm AP in other circumstances. Some will like that. A little hole beats no hole or a bullet looking for a lawyer?

The 5.7 commercial loads, especially from the pistol, have about as much energy (355 ft lbs or less), penetrate as much (9 inches or less), and do as much damage as a 38+P or std pressure 9mm, but is easier to hit with.

If it has a place, it will find it. It's only been looking for about 15 years now, give it time.

The Brits bought some of HKs even smaller 4.6mm weapons. Wonder how those will do?

[f3rr37]

I'm not saying the 5.7 is the one shot stop 'em all round, every round has its uses, whether it be target shooting, self defense, etc... The 5.7 was made to do something specific, and it fills that role very well. An AP capable platform for Mil/LE engagements that involve someone on the other end of the barrel with armor. Whether you would use it for self defense is totally up to you, same thing if someone wanted to use a Desert Eagle. I think we are all distracted with what the statistics show, but we need to focus more on, does it serve its purpose. Not one ammunition fills the hole for everything. And what we're forgetting most, will the projectile take down a target with percision shot placement (i.e. head shot).

[asknight]

I'm going to refrain from commenting too heavily on this topic. I only chimed in this time to say that I whole-heartedly agree with the fact that the 5x7x28 is ballistically similar to the .22 Magnum round. I've literally been torn apart and called many names in the past on this very board for alluding to such facts.

The 5.7 guys just don't like it when you start comparing ballistics, ammo prices, and the prices of firearms chambered in each of the calibers.

I'm sure the 5.7 has awesome capabilities with it's "as designed and intended" SS190 round, but it's restricted to .mil and LEO... so us regular folks can't easily acquire it. Instead, we're left with 40gr Hornady VMAX projectiles which are varmint bullets... I'm not going to pay the asking price of the PS90 or the FiveseveN, or the ammo to shoot a .224" 40gr VMAX bullet at .22 Magnum velocities. I'm curious about a comparison between the CCI .17HMR FMJ round and the SS196/7 ammo in the FiveseveN.

Here's the beginning of my petition to Browning to chamber the Buckmark in .17HMR so that I can have a "Working Man's FiveseveN."

[DmL5]

The Secret Service uses the P90 PDW on a limited basis, along with several other weapon systems.The Secret Service CAT uses the P90 as their primary weapon.


yes, the hottest loads run around 300 fps faster, but the weight as light so the energy difference is minimal and effectively irrelevantThe 5.7x28 SS195 out of a 16" bbl runs about 700 fps faster than .22 WMR out of a 24" bbl.


On at least a couple occasions, individuals took multiple hits (including hits to the chest) from a P90 and were in sufficiently good shape to ask the cops not to continue shooting them.Please post this info here and point out where there was mention of hits to the chests of these perps.


Officers from at least a few of those departments have stated the P90 was purchased, used for a very brief period, and shelved when its limitations became known.Please name these departments.


Jacksonville FL is one of the agencies listed as using the P90 but their officers have made it clear that it gets left behind.Please link us to a statement by a Jacksonville officer where it is made clear that their P90s now get left behind.


You do know that Sandy Wall now works for FN, right, and apparently did so at the time the article in question was written?Sandy Wall of HPD has never worked for FN.


Once again, the 5.7 does nothing that a 9mm JHP will not doIt is lighter with lower recoil, flatter trajectory, and offering penetration of SBA.


I've literally been torn apart and called many names in the past on this very board for alluding to such facts.Please point to a single instance in the past where you were called names here for your views on the 5.7x28.


Instead, we're left with 40gr Hornady VMAX projectiles which are varmint bullets...False. The SS195 JHP has been available for nearly a year now. Soft tissue performance/penetration in gelatin testing is identical (for good or bad) to the SS190 and velocity-wise it chronographs at just under 2100 fps.

[Obiwan]

Here are some comments from a full time SWAT guy

"The 5.7 pistol as a carry gun is a mistake for all the reasons Doc stated. There are far more effective weapons and ammunition combinations out there. The only factor that comes close to equalizing the P90 (not the 5.7 pistol) is it's full auto capability: 900 rpm of very controllable fire. Even this advantage is limited to close-in, CQB type engagements. I can put more rounds on target faster with the P90 than with my M4 in close contact engagements. Unfortunately you may HAVE to put more rounds in the threat due to the lack of damage the projectile causes. We have been using 30 P90's for five years now. There have been three BG's shot with them. We will not be buying more...Using SS190 and a suppressor will lead to cracks in the frame around the barrel support lock (takedown button). This is a result of the increase in back pressure....But then between me and the guy sitting next to me right now we have only been in a couple of gunfights with them so take what I say with a grain of salt...for those still interested in listening to real world experience with the P90 and SS190 ammo. The round is far less effective than 5.56 and many other widely used defensive loads. You want to wrap your life around the 5.7/P90 system knock yourself out. I am not trying to be a dick to you but my agency has more operation experience with the system then ANY and our verdict is it is far less effective than advertised. "

[Obiwan]

I think I can now put an end to all the hype and the arguing

I have it on good authority that SG1 has now switched to the HK MP&/PDW

So all you groupies can now start proclaiming the intrinsic superiority of the 4.6x30 round

Repeat after me...everything I know about ballistics I learned on StarGate :neener:

[buzz_knox]

I think I can now put an end to all the hype and the arguing

I have it on good authority that SG1 has now switched to the HK MP&/PDW

Nope. They did it for just one mission, when they needed to play the role of alien drug smugglers. Apparently, the galaxy knows that the P90 is the weapon of choice of the Tau'ri.

[DmL5]

There have been three BG's shot with them.I'm going to assume this is the agency you're referring to, buzz_knox. Where in the comment of Obiwan's is it said that the BGs 'asked them to stop shooting them' or that even one of these incidents included 'hits to the chest'?



I can put more rounds on target faster with the P90 than with my M4 in close contact engagements. Unfortunately you may HAVE to put more rounds in the threat due to the lack of damage the projectile causes.And since the weapon can put rounds on target faster than other guns, its theoretical need for more rounds on target has already been met.

[rection47]

Once again, the 5.7 does nothing that a 9mm JHP will not do, and does not do what a 9mm JHP can do . . . except cost more.

But this round has reasonably lower recoil from the p90 then a 9mm mp5 and better armor piercnig capability, and that IS the reason it was made, to have armor penetrating capabilities in a small package.

Ofcourse it isn't the best weapon, it isn't meant to be.

[loki.fish]

Whatever happened to shot placement is everything? I have the FiveseveN, considering it is summer it's not a concealable weapon. When winter hits I might consider carrying it. Seeing as how I have multiple pistols, I'm still searching for the comfortable CCW. Would I trust my life to the 5.7? That's a good question. Chances are I probably would. I shoot it better than any other gun I own, so I'd say I'd have a better chance at getting a pretty deadly COM shot with it. As somebody quoted from a full time "SWAT" guy, the P90 is great for CQC. Maybe that's it's niche?

[dragongoddess]

Why are police officers using armor piercing ammo on civilians.

[P99guy]

SS190 is service BALL ammunition, its a lightweight version of the 5.56mm SS109/M855 bullet(aluminum core instead of lead)...and those SS109's arent concidered AP by BATF definiton....there are real AP(by ATF definition) rounds
with tungston alloy cores made for 5.56 for example. SS190 5.7 fired from a PS90 is (legally )no different than SS109 shot through a AR15. The stink is that a 1911 size pistol also fires it...where 5.56 "pistols' are much bigger and tend to be chopped down AR15 variants. If there was no five seven pistol, only the PS90 carbine..SS190 would be no big deal/ off the gunshop shelf item....because nobody is surpised in the least that a rifle or carbine will punch a vest made to stop conventional pistols ONLY with ANY ammo availible for them. This has also stopped (so far) there being a "plinking" FMJ
for 5.7x28 though everything else in the world has one....It is simply speed and small diameter that allow 5.7 to punch kevlar, a .30 M1 carbine chambered Ruger Blackhawk revolver punch kevlar, and a 7.62x25 CZ52
punch kevlar etc. the military is stuck with FMJ style ammo, and despite what caliber it is they have to find ways to make it work better while staying withen the rules..in the last few decades that means making them penetrate
3" or so inches stabilized and point forward(at this point putting a neat hole in kevlar,ammo pouches, BDU's or what ever, then going unstable and yawing
to create a greater frontal area while passing through the target. The bullets
that have the most success in the designers eyes are those that can do this consistantly and at predictible depth (such as would be occupied by vital organs withen the body cavity) while not over penetrating..because of the obvious reasons, as well as if it has the power/ stability to penetrate 3 people standing in line in one shot...it is imparting very little of its energy on the original target before passing competely though and hitting the next person.

[M2 Carbine]

dragongoddess
Location: Way Way out in West Texas
Why are police officers using armor piercing ammo on civilians.


A little while back there was a courthouse shooting near the DFW area.
The BG was using a AK and had on a pretty good vest. It was stopping every pistol round that hit it.
I don't remember how many people he killed, including police and a civilian that got a couple shots into the BG's vest. At the time if a LEO or the civilian had been armed with the FN 5.7, the BG may have been stopped sooner.


That shooting convinced me to replace the M1 Carbine, I have in my truck, with a rifle I'm sure will go through a vest.

[Slvr Surfr]

That shooting occured in Tyler, Texas. The BG was put down by a policeman using a .223 AR-15.

[possum]

personally i think the five seven, and the p90 themselves are way, way to expensive, and the ammo is crazy high too. give me an ar-15 and plenty of ammo, because you know it can be found almost anywhere, unlike the 5.7. I try to go for avaliability, as well as price of ammo, and this just really dosen't fit my shooting, or needs. But I also don't have unlimited funds to buy guns and ammo.:banghead:

Why are police officers using armor piercing ammo on civilians.
There is a difference between a civilian and a criminal, especially one that is endangering yours as an leo or others lives.there duty is to protect, and if they can't take down a bg because he is wearing body armor, they need some different hardware. I would take every measure to stop the bg, if i had to use an at-4, well i hope my backblast area is clear!:)

[JShirley]

Why are police officers using armor piercing ammo on civilians

Police officers, unless employed by the military, are civilians.

John