[aerod1]

Do you carry in Church? If so what do you carry?
Depending on how I am dressed, I may be carrying a Taurus 357 revolver, a Kel-tec P-11, a Beretta Tomcat or something else. When looking in my closet trying to decide what to wear, I also look in my gunsafe to see what will go well with what I am wearing. What I mean is, I want to make sure the clothes and the gun are compatible so far as being comfortable and concealable. I now consider my carry weapon as part of my wardrobe.
BTW, I know for a fact I'm not the only person carrying at my Church. I know at least five of us who carry. This is legal in Texas.

Jim Hall

[Hkmp5sd]

My normal CCW gun, Glock 17.

[aikidoka-mks]

yes,

walther ppk/s in belly band, shirt tucked in.

Mark

[HIPOWER]

I'm a pastor, and I definitely always at least take my Glock 26 or Glock 36 to church. I either leave it locked in my office, or if I'm wearing a jacket I keep in an an IWB holster. I've actually preached a few sermons with my gun on my hip.
Most of the men in my church are hunters and several are avid shooters. On any given Sunday I would say that there are at least 10 guys in our small church who are armed, out of about 75 in attendence.

[Gerald McDonald]

In Texas I thought it was a no no to carry in church, at least it was at the time I got mine.

[Dobe]

I think a polished stainless would make a nice Sunday-go-to-meeting gun.

What-da-ya think?

Dobe

[CleverNickname]

In Texas I thought it was a no no to carry in church, at least it was at the time I got mine.

It was until the Wedgewood Baptist shooting in Dallas a few years ago. Then the Tex. Legislature decided that maybe carry in churches wasn't such a bad idea after all...

[.45Ruger]

I carry in church when I get to go. Mainly I carry an XD 40 but now I have the new XD 9 Subcompact so it will be my new carry gun.

[nemesis]

Yeah, I carry in Church; always. It's a Para C7.45 LDA, like an Officers Model. I carry it in a Galco Deep Cover tuckable IWB holster with my shirt tucked in and it sits behind my hip but just far enough forward that the butt doesn't strike the back of the pew.

God doesn't want the Forces of Evil doing their deeds in His house.

[Serpico]

You bet...some of the nuns I had in grade school are still there....

[Poohgyrr]

Yes.

Typically a Hi Power. :D

[Gordon]

When I had legal authorization (sworn) I'd carry a Colt Commander .45 in a Sparks IWB Summer special. I was skinny then and it hid OK under sport jacket. In the 80's I carried a Colt Agent in a Kramer pocket holster back pocket with a sweater or jacket. In the 90's I got fatter and less paronoid so I carried a model 950 Berratta .25 with and extra 9 round magazine. Now I am carrying a Keltec .32 and a 4 1/15" knife. In the 70's I did have to pull .45acp to arrest a very agressive drug addict/drunk with a knife who barged in and wouldn't quiet down after I tried the brotherly love routine.:evil:

[voilsb]

yup. my normal carry gun. currently a beretta 92fs, but hopefully I'll be able to afford a smaller gun (officer's model 1911) sometime soon.

I found out last month when I was working in the nursery that it's ... interesting ... trying to keep it concealed while carrying a baby who just doesn't want to be happy.

[WYO]

Carry all you want. Just don't drink the coffee. :)

[chaim]

Um, since I don't go to church I guess the answer is no.

However, when I move to a CCW state I have every intention to carry when I go to synagogue (if it is legal in the state I go to). First, anti-semetism is on the rise everywhere (including here in the US), and while it isn't widespread, anti-semetic violence is up as well (though nothing like what is being seen in Paris these days). Also, since Orthodox Jews go to synagogue to pray two, and when possible, three times a day, and often at other times for classes or individual religious study as well, it would simply be too much of a pain to take it off whenever entering the shul (another word for synagogue).

[Ala Dan]

cuz some thug may want to make off with the collection
plate!:uhoh: SIG-Sauer P220A in .45 ACP, as you
get more bang for the buck!:)

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

[Skunkabilly]

Sunday morning, folks, lock and load! :D

Tee hee!

[Sam]

When you live in a state that operates CCW on a "wink and a nod", life is difficult anyhow.
With the exception of picking up a prisoner from the lockup, I won't do business anyplace where I am not armed. My preacher has the same attitude I do. Who am I to question.

Sam

[Lone_Gunman]

It against the law in Georgia to carry a gun to church.

[rebbryan]

i'm pretty it's illegal here too in south carolina, and i only know of 2 police officers in my church and i'm only sure that 1 of them carries. it's a very large church too, sorta askin for trouble... :uhoh:

[cool45auto]

Lone: concealed is concealed.:D

l
l
l
v

[LiquidTension]

What is this "church" that you people speak of? I am unfamiliar with this word. Something is trying to push its way up from the depths of memory, but it is still fuzzy....

[Standing Wolf]

Being an atheist, I spend very little time in churches, but if I were a church-goer, I'd carry.

[Bainx]

However, when I move to a CCW state I have every intention to carry when I go to synagogue (if it is legal in the state I go to).
chaim, chaim, chaim....to heck with "the rules". You have a God given right to defend yourself!:)

[Flashpoint]

It was until the Wedgewood Baptist shooting in Dallas a few years ago. Then the Tex. Legislature decided that maybe carry in churches wasn't such a bad idea after all...

That's the exact reason that I carry to church. For some reason Ar. Leg. don't understand that CCWs that carry to church are there to counter the people that don't care that murder is against the law.

Lone: concealed is concealed.

:rolleyes: Yep, I agree. I carry to protect my family (blood and spiritual) from the ignorance of our political body. Does this make me as bad as the guy that comes in to reak havock, or just responsible?

Oh, Steyr M40 in a Highnoon tuckable.

[Catbird]

Yes, I "carry" in church.

This morning (Sunday), I had my Kel-Tec P32 in my right front pants pocket with a spare magazine in my left.

The pastor of my church loves guns; we've been shooting together for many years. Actually, I gave him my S&W model 28, Highway Patrolman .357 on his 16th birthday. I gave him my Glock 19 with 5 hicap magazines on his 21st birthday.

My pastor/my son.

[aerod1]

Gerald McDonald,

Look in the latest "Texas Concealed Handgun Laws" handbook, which is the 2001 - 2002 edition. Turn to page 33, section PC 46.04.(b).(6).
Then drop down closer to the bottom of the page to 46.04.(i).
This means if a Church doesn't want you to carry they must have the appropriate Section 30.06 sign posted. In this case, it is time to change Churches.

Jim Hall

[Majic]

Here in Virginia it is illegal to carry in church if religious services are being held.

[Rebeldon]

I have carried in Church. I understand that in Alabama, it was a constitutional requirement for men to carry a gun to church. It may or may not still in the state constitution. You know how those antiquated laws can still be on the books.

[Catbird]

Here in Virginia it is illegal to carry in church...
I suppose it depends upon what the meaning of "is" is.

[Majic]

Catbird,
You would have to have a valid reason to carry in church, which would be decided by a magistrate or court, or you will be guilty of a class 4 misdemeanor.

[Catbird]

You would have to have a valid reason to carry in church, which would be decided by a magistrate or court, or you will be guilty of a class 4 misdemeanor.
Could you please provide reference material(s) for this statement?

[Majic]

Here is the Va. State Police:

http://www.vsp.state.va.us/cjis_gunlaws.htm

[incursion]

Yup, P7M8 in a Milt Sparks VM2

[tech]

Flashpoint, I am right there with you. I was kinda figuring if it ever became a problem I could say I was pulling security(I am on the church board). I just try not to sit back to fast or my pistol clunks against the pew.

[10-Ring]

Nope, I guess those nuns trained me well in grade school. We weren't even allowed to talk in church much less bring guns!

[Skunkabilly]

Jeez 10-ring in the year or two I've known you that's the first time I ever heard you say you DON'T have a gun on you.... :scrutiny:

[GlocksRock]

Yep, G26 in a fobus paddle or a Beretta .22 in my pocket.

[tetchaje1]

Nope.

I don't feel the need. I know everybody that comes into the church and they are all upstanding folk. Besides, my church recently requested that members not carry there. No big deal.

Besides, here in Utah there are so many Mormon chapels that the odds of my chapel getting singled out by a thug would be 1,000,000,000 : 1. :p

[Skunkabilly]

Wait a sec...something that is not illegal in California involving guns is illegal in Southern states? What the heck? The irony!

Or am I missing something here :uhoh:

[tetchaje1]

At least we can get carry permits, Skunk... :D :neener:

(Just joshin' ya... ;) )

[Skunkabilly]

At least we can get carry permits, Skunk...

Who said we can't? ;)

[tetchaje1]

Oh yeah, I forgot that Tactibilly has an "in" with the local Sheriff's office...

...at least you don't live in Berkeley... :uhoh:

Oh yeah, how many rounds can I fit in my AR15?... :neener:

[pax]

Of course.

I carry everywhere.

pax

Gold is for the mistress, silver for the maid
Copper for the craftsman, cunning at his trade.
"Good", said the Baron, sitting in his hall,
"But Iron, Cold Iron, is the master of them all!"
-- Rudyard Kipling

[ShaiVong]

If I were to carry to church, and my wife were to find out, I would need it to defend myself from HER! :uhoh:

Pax, nice poem in the sig, its been so long sence i heard it, that i forgot i memorized it!!

[TheFrontRange]

If I'm wearing a sport coat or other covering garment, I carry my full-size 1911 in an OWB rig with two spare mags on the opposite hip.

Lately I've been carrying my SIG P239 in .40 in a Kramer Confidant holster shirt with one extra mag in the offside pouch just about everywhere, including church.

[Jesse H]

yes,

walther ppk/s in belly band, shirt tucked in.

Mark

EXACTLY what I carry to church. Gotta keep an eye out for the huggers though.

[M1911]

Gotta keep an eye out for the huggers though.That's why I go with pocket carry with a J-frame or MK9. But these days, I'm not in a church or temple very often (weddings and funerals, with more of the latter these days, sigh).

[Skunkabilly]

EXACTLY what I carry to church. Gotta keep an eye out for the huggers though.

Jesse, I am working on my tactical hug.

In general, hug FIRST and always put your arms below their arms. As high up against the armpits so their hands don't creep down to around your kidney-ish area.

For kids, kneel, don't bend over, so you don't print.

[Gerald McDonald]

Thanks Jim.
Gerald

[joell33]

I go to a church with a ccw instructor. I would estimate 30-40 members(men and women) carry every service. I carry either my mk9 or my wife's p32 if I have to wear a tucked in shirt!

[snubby]

S&W 340 PD in a front pocket Desantis Nemesis. Wife keeps her Charter Arms 38 Spl in her purse.

[Poohgyrr]

For those who can carry,

I haven't seen any postings about the terrorist thing. Those extremists are anti USA, anti Christian, and other anti-things. The USA is basically a Christian country, and fairly good authority has it that they will eventually do the same things here, in the USA, that they have already done elsewhere. Like attack our churches and schools. Probably not on a "large" scale, but it will happen somewhere. I probably can't do much about a bomb, but I can shoot back.

Hopefully I'll never have to.

Best wishes and good health.

[Seminole]

I usually carry my USPc .40 IWB with a Kel-Tec P32 in the pants pocket. When it gets so hot that wearing a coat for even just the few yards from my air-conditioned car to the air-conditioned building is insufferable, I'll be down to just the Kel-Tec. I have carried a Makarov in a pocket holster, but I have to have just the right pair of pants and, of course, it's pretty heavy.

[Kharn]

Ala Dan:
cuz some thug may want to make off with the collection
plate!

That actually happened at my current church about a year before I arrived. Some guy just walked up to the pulpit, picked up the collection basket and just walked right out while about 1/3 of the people were waiting to file out the doors. Being in Maryland, nobody tried to stop him. :banghead:
Current solution is two of the ushers take the basket and put it into a drop safe after Mass is concluded, but I know none of them are packing more than a pocket knife (my dad's one of the ushers).

Kharn

[sw442642]

It is unconstitutional to ban carry in churches on more than just 2nd Amend. grounds. Interferring with religions is forbidden by the Constitution unless the religion is doing something dangerous - like human sacrifice.

The rational for banning guns is that they are a danger. However if CCW exists then the danger of carrying is said by the state to be minimal. Bans exist in places of danger like courthouses and bars.

However, you cannot identify a specific danger due to the nature of a church. The ban is because the church is "holy". Well, since when does the state the metaphysical characteristics of a church and the conditions under which someone can worship - given it is not a danger.

Thus such bans are against the 1st Amend.

This argument is not original to me. I read it on GT.

[HadEmAll]

I usually carry one of my "little" guys, a Ruger SP101, a Kahr K40 or a S&W 457. At 1 o'clock in a Don Hume IWB. Catholic church, very relaxed dress code.

[dairycreek]

Of course! And everywhere else that is legal as well. Some years ago I had the responsibility of taking the money from the Sunday's collection to be depositied in the lock box safe at the bank. I was usually carrying several thousands of dollars to be deposited and the bank was in a bad part of town. Do you think I was carrying then? Bet your life! Good shooting

[TonyB]

I carry mostly because our ushers are CLUELESS...if someone did come in w/ evil intent,they wouldn't know it till it was too late.I carry my usual CCW.Sp101 w/ 38+p+jhp, and an extra speedloader.My Pastor knows I carry and his wife actually said she feels SAFER when I carry.People w/ brains..gotta love em.
A shooting buddy of mine is a pastor too....he and most of his ushers carry......makes for HUGE offerings!!:D

[mini14jac]

chaim said:
First, anti-semetism is on the rise everywhere (including here in the US), and while it isn't widespread, anti-semetic violence is up as well (though nothing like what is being seen in Paris these days).

I would agree with your statement, and expand on it.
Not only is anti-semitism on the rise, but so is anti-Christianity.
(Maybe because of our support of the State of Israel, or the exclusive nature of our message.)
As someone else mentioned, the Wedgewood Baptist shootings were an eye-opener to me.
I used to frequently leave my wife practicing with the choir, or leave my kids at some kind of youth event.
Not anymore. Now I hang around.

If I were a Muslim, with the current situation here in the U.S. I think I would carry to the Mosque.

I saw an article about the (lack of) media interest in the Wedgewood shootings.
They did a Nexis search on news articles about the shooting.
If I'm not mistaken, there were way less than 100 articles.
Though the gunman was heard by several witness to making anit-Christian remarks, it was not ruled a hate crime.
The author of the article had done a search on articles about one of the infamous murders of a homosexual. (Maybe the Matthew Sheppard case?)
Again, if memory serves, there were 10 times as many stories, and it was labeled a hate crime.

Carry in church?
P32 in Don Hume pocket holster, or PM9 in Uncle Mike's pocket holster.

[RustyHammer]

Praise G-d, Hallelujah, a man Sister .. .. ... PASS THE AMMO!

[benEzra]

Large churches are among the "softest" targets in the United States, and some churches have thousands of people attending.

Also bear in mind that in Pakistan, Al-Qaeda terrorists HAVE shot up Christian churches (typical MO was a rifle and grenade attack by several assailants, IIRC).

[Seminole]

Here is a related thread:

(TX) Burglar Shot in Church (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=23024)

[spacemanspiff]

i've carried my steyr m9, holstered in my coat pocket, until i got a tuckable, and now i carry my kimber tle ii with that.

[22luvr]

The places where guns are needed the most are the places where they're liable to be illegal!

That being said, I carry my NAA mini-revolver .22MAG every Sunday discreetely. Although I have not asked around, I'm sure there are a lot more like me toting, including the many LEO's that are part of our church family.

I'll willingly and gladly share my resources with those in need but........If someone tries to take something that's mine by force, they might catch a bullet instead. I have NOOOO problem spiritually justifying that statement and never have.

[sig970]

My Church gun is a Sig P239 in 9mm

[user4574]

p99 .40sw carried in a blk galco angle hip holster at the 6 oclock.

[possum]

i do, i carry my normal ccw, either my xd, or kahr. I know some of you are gonan say "that is illegal, and you are not alowed to carry at public gatherings." That is true but also Georgia has a law that states that people with certain jobs, Ie military, police, and many more actually are exempt from alot of the restricted areas of carry.

[TheGrimReaper]

I always take a gun to church. Alot of times it is a NAA mini revolver .22mag in my front pocket.

[Treo]

What caliber for zombie thread?

[PRM]

Only if it has pre-ban ivory grips. Looks better with my dark suits!!!

[ultradoc]

I haven't yet but think I will this Sunday.

[jjohnson]

Well, no, I never do, unless kind of by chance the CCW is one that's in my coat in a Nemesis holster and I simply didn't bother to leave it behind.

I know, s**t can hit the fan anywhere, anytime, and it usually does. Like many churchgoers, I feel a (perhaps false) sense of security at a church. One of my 2009 goals is to carry more often, entirely because you can't predict when and where you'd need it. I don't feel constrained by any moral or religious standard to NOT carry.

So... yeah, probably. You never know, CCW permits may soon be more difficult to get - may as well "do the getting while the getting is good."

[zammyman]

I carry a Kimber 45 IWB to church

[Quoheleth]

Jesse, I am working on my tactical hug.

In general, hug FIRST and always put your arms below their arms. As high up against the armpits so their hands don't creep down to around your kidney-ish area.

For kids, kneel, don't bend over, so you don't print.

Also, hug first to your weak side. I'm big enough (ahem...gotta work on that in 2009) that most people at church can hardly reach around me. Plus, as the pastor, I don't have a tendency to do to many "full body hugs." Don't want the misses to become jealous :p

Q

[razorback2003]

I carry a S&W hammerless airweight snub in a pocket holster everywhere i go, including church.

[1911 guy]

I've got a letter from the church board asking me me to be armed at any church function I attend. I carry my normal stuff, a 1911, two reloads, flashlight, 2 1/2" fixed blade and similar folder. Since I wear a suit to church it all disappears nicely and I've gotten good at the "tactical hug".

[Treo]

This thread is almost 5 & 1/2 years old :D

I carry in church also & I sit in the back up in the sound booth so I can see all three doors real well.

let me throw this out.

If your pastor came to you and said " Hey Chuck, I really feel that God has laid it on my heart to ask you not to carry in church" Would you accept his authority over you and disarm before going to church?

[stormspotter]

Yes, and my pastor approves it. He has just finished his 6 month residency requirement and will soon be able to apply for his CCW.

My sunday go to church CCW is a 2 1/2" Model 19 carried IWB. I always dress casual, with untucked shirt, so it is no problem.

If he disapproved, I would still have permission from one of our church elders and would continue to CCW.

[youngda9]

I would reply that God has told me no such thing. I wonder why God would go to you and tell you something he wanted me to do when he certainly knows where to find me.
:rolleyes:

I would question where his "message" was coming from.
:banghead:

[Treo]

I wonder why God would go to you and tell you something he wanted me to do when he certainly knows where to find me.

If that's the case why even go to church ? I mean yes God gave the Pastor a message to share but hey, if he really wants you to hear it.....

Biblically speaking the Pastor is placed in a position of authority over his congregation, I am one of the biggest advocates on this board of carrying every where I legally can and if I went to church Sunday and the pastor asked me not to carry unless I got a no doubt check in my spirit that this ain't right I'd disarm. If I wasn't sure, I'd disarm & I believe God would honor it. ( Now either you'll understand what I just said or you won't & if you don't me explaining it isn't going to help).

Sometimes when I'm not listening to God He WILL send other people to say it plain

[BernieD]

If I were a church goer I would carry. I always carry. Bad things can happen in church. The bad guys probably don't care about perceived sanctity of church. I think we need more people to carry to church. Religious buildings have been targeted many times for assault. That might change after a couple stories about 'The assailants entered the church intending a mass assault. They were stopped at the door by 15 people ranging in ages from young adult to geriatric, who opened fire.'

[youngda9]

If that's the case why even go to church ?"
To be with other Christians, to hear sermons and learn more about the lord and what he had to say, to have a moral support base and fellowship with other Christians etc. etc. etc. There are lots of reasons to go to church.


"I mean yes God gave the Pastor a message to share but hey, if he really wants you to hear it....."
I would question a pastor that told me that god was telling him things contradictory to the things Jesus is quoted as saying in the bible.
Jesus never told his followers to disarm...he didn't say throw away your weapons he said put away your swords when his disciples were being confronted by the angry mob. He said we should all arm ourselves.
I would feel strange if the pastor came to me and said that god was telling him that I shouldn't do this perfectly legal activity while at church....I would seriously question this. That is all I was saying.

"...But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a sack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one" (Luke 22:36).

Paul wrote in a letter to Timothy "But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever" (1 Tim. 5:8). This passage applies to our subject because it would be absurd to buy a house, furnish it with food and facilities for one's family, and then refuse to install locks and provide the means to protect the family and the property. Likewise it would be absurd not to take, if necessary, the life of a night-time thief to protect the members of the family (Exodus 22:2-3).

http://gunowners.org/sk0801.htm
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=25442

[Sato Ord]

As far as carrying in church, that goes along with any other place. I carry my weapon wherever it is legal to do so. If I attended church I would carry it there as well. When I enter a house of worship, any house of worship, for any reason, I carry my S&W. Do I expect trouble in these places, no, but, like anywhere else, I'd rather be safe than sorry. I may respect the scared places of others, but I'm not the guy with the gun we have to worry about.

[tblt]

Most always carry at church along with a few others.
I carry a LCP most of the time with a extra mag loaded w/ 102 gr golden sabers
38 sometimes w/5 extra rounds speer 135 gr short barrel
When I get my KAHR CW 9 I will probley carry it most the time w/a extra mag loaded with 147 gr.HST +p

[wyocarp]

Well, even though we have a lot of firearm freedoms here in Wyoming, in church is not one of them. I can walk into a bank loaded for bear, but I can't carry in church unless I have permission from the person or persons in charge of the church.

I guess we need someone to shoot up a church here in Wyoming before it will be allowed.

[green country shooter]

Legal here in Oklahoma. I usually carry a glock 26 in an ankle holster to get around the hug bunnies. We didn't hug until about 1990, I blame the Clintons.
Sometimes I carry and sometimes I don't. There are times I feel it will interfere with the experience.

[Blue Brick]

Never!!! I leave it in the truck.

[MostlyHarmless]

I do not believe there is anything magical about being in church that would protect me from evildoers. Church is a special place, yes, set aside and sanctified. But Christianity is not a mystical religion and though we may ask for God's blessing and protection there is no guarantee of safety anywhere in this fallen world.

Some churches I frequent are pacifist and have made it clear that they do not want firearms on the grounds. I respect their wishes even though they do not have the force of law. Other churches I frequent have taken no public position regarding the carrying of firearms.

It is not my preference to carry while participating in a worship service, however.

[Cuda]

Just ask the family in Colorado who lost 2 members in a church.

Carry always, always be prepared.


C

[logical]

In Michigan the law forbids it unless that pastor (or whoever is in charge) specifically approves it. I don't go often enough and am not enough of an "always carry" type to ask if he'd approve it. The place is so big it might even be prohibited under the "not in a stadium" clause for all I know.

[Kansan]

If you see me, I am carrying (where legal).... including church. S&W .38 Special - Ankle hoster. I read the news.

[withdrawn34]

I always keep this picture in mind (yes its a bit of a satire but the actual verse it comes from makes a very good point)

http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x95/paul344/2rw2pdw.jpg

[notorious]

You bet I carry in church, all my friends carry in church. When my friends got married, we all carried to the ceremony. I even had uniformed guys come by and hang out and of courses, they carried.

The pastor was a bit disturbed and said he prefer that we didn't in the house of God but I told him no disrespect, Padre, but we have reasons why we always carry. I don't think he realized we were all cops.

Once he realized it, he let it go. On second thought, I recall seeing many paintings and artwork depicting a knight with his weapons inside a church, so there's probably not a prohibition against weapons in a house of worship.

There was a shooting at a synagogue in LA not too long ago and the gunman was put down by an off-duty cop working security there. The local synagogues have been hiring off-duty cops for a long time to provide security and that time, it paid off. If the cop hadn't been there, it would have been a massacre.

[CDH]

An average Sunday at our church has about 450 people in attendance, and I'd guestimate that there are at least 10 to 20 who carry, the ushers making up likely half that number.

I carry my Rohrbaugh R9S Stealth in church, and while some believe that a place of worship is more immune to violence, recent news reports suggest otherwise.
All it would take for me to "upgrade" to my XD45 instead, is a couple more news reports of hate crime killings in churches as these trouble times become more troubling.

While the likelyhood of a violent incident during a church service is probably 1% of 1% of 1%, I'm pretty sure that we who carry 100% of the time do so in order to be prepared for that one (very unlikely) moment that could change our lives forever unless we are prepared.
Is that not why we carry?

[jon_in_wv]

I got involved in a similar thread a while ago. Many people feel the Church building is somehow a holy place and if you carry a weapon in church you are somehow sinning because you are showing a lack of faith in God. Some believe the pastor has some authority over you to tell you you can or can not carry. Some believe they feel secure and safe in church and have no need to carry there.
1. The church is merely a building. Christ's Church is the sum of all its members and you are in his Church always if you are a Christian. If it is wrong to carry in that building than you are wrong to carry any where you go as a Chirstian. Does your faith stop at the doorsteps? Will Christ not protect you wherever you are? God promised, "that whoever believes in him (Jesus) shall not perish but shall have eternal life". This refers to our eternal soul. Not our temporary behinds. My faith protects my soul and S&W protects my behind. Early Christians had such strong faith they were tortured and murdered to denounce Christ yet they did not. I doubt everyone's faith is that strong yet that faith did not stop them from being killed. But they did not perish as God saved their SOULS.
2. A pastor is a teacher. He is obligated to teach and guide you by the Bible. It doesn't give him authority or put him in a position of authority over you. In fact he is supposed to be a servant of the congregation. Many pastors, priests, and ministers have tried to use the Bible to assert power over people. This is contrary to the Bible not authorized by it.
3. I'm glad that you feel safe and secure in the presence of you congregation. I do too. But whether or not I am surrounded by my friends, there is still the same amount of evil in the world and there is no magic force field around our building protecting us. Since I can carry, I feel an obligation to do so to be a protector of our church and its inhabitants.

That about sums up my feelings on that subject.

[wyocarp]

Some believe the pastor has some authority over you to tell you you can or can not carry.

Well, in some states, the state actually give the pastor that authority so in short, like here in Wyoming, they do have that authority.

[notorious]

But that is secular authority the same as the law given tavern owners or night club owners the same right to prohibit arms on their premises.

Like I said earlier, teutonic knights and the Knights Templar never disarmed when going to church and I don't think the Bible has been amended to prevent firearms from going in to the House of God either.

[ultradoc]

Did it today. Also, over the weekend found another fellow who goes there and he carries. My pastor [who is planning to get his ccl] said it's a good thing to know who is out there.

[Big Bill]

I saw the Bishop out shopping for a concealable handgun the other day, and since the gays are giving us such a hard time after the election in California, I have decided to carry in church.

[notorious]

Good for the Bishop. Show those supposedly "tolerant" people that we are not easy prey for their intolerance.

The most violent and vehemently intolerant people here in the Prop. 8 protest were not the Anti-gay marriage side, btw. They were pretty well behaved while the Pro gay marriage crowd shouted all sorts of words unsuitable for a general audience and had to be held back because they were hurling rocks and threatening physical violence.

[jon_in_wv]

As far as the Pastor's authority I was speaking of his Biblical authority. It hadn't occurred to me he would have authority like a property owner as you say some states grant him. (I am a member of the Church of Christ and the minister is a employee of the church and its elders. So the only authority would be in the hands of the church elders.) In those cases I suppose your choices may be limited. Funny a secular law would delve into deciding who on religious property has the authority to make a decision like that.

[Big Bill]

Remember that the sheep are better off with sheepdogs!

[notorious]

As far as I know, there is no Biblical authority for a pastor to disarm me. As a matter of fact, the only one that can disarm someone has been God and Jesus who told his disciples to lay down their swords after one of them sliced off the ear of a Centurion who was intent on arresting Jesus.

Other than that, I recognize no authority to disarm me. If a property owner does not want me there with a gun, he loses a customer.

[Big Bill]

notorious - that particular scripture proves that Jesus allowed his disciples to be armed up until and even after HE was willing to lay down his life.

[notorious]

Exactly. I told my secretary the same thing when she was adhering to the turn the other cheek argument when I was arguing that Christianity has always allowed arms in the defense of the religion... and sometimes even in the offense of the religion such as the Crusades.

I told her Christ told people who did not have swords to sell their coats so they can buy swords and that the temple destroying episode showed that Jesus also had righteous anger and lashed out against those who sought to pervert our religion.

We are not to be a disarmed people under God, but a strong Christian people ready to defend the kingdom of God against those who seek to pervert it or destroy it.

[JImbothefiveth]

I view carrying at church as a good thing, especially with the recent church shootings.

If I was asked to disarm, I probably would, no need to cause a fuss over it.

[notorious]

When I am asked to disarm, I ask if they want it in my car where nobody can keep an eye on it or do they want me to check it with them and have them take responsibility for it... usually to thundering silence because those who have no idea how to take responsibility for their own safety can't possibly think outside of the box when it comes to real responsibility.

[James T Thomas]

"Meekness" as Moses had is defined as keeping self control. It gives me great satisfaction knowing that almost all of the armed citizens I know of possess that meekness.

Notorious. You state the obvious, but often, the unstated {Politically Uncorrect} knowledge that it is not the law abiding, Bible believing, gun grabbing, church attending sort that are: hateful...violent...provocative...malcontent...abusive...

Did I forget anything?

[CrankyOldGuy]

I carry in church.
I did ask our Bishop with the full expectation that he would say "no" and I would have to find another church.
He wrote a letter for me to allow it after I asked.

His comment? "The United States of America is the greatest defender of religious freedom on this earth. I know you fought to defend that freedom and I would never deny you the right to defend yourself or your wonderful family." he did add; "Please be discrete for those who would be alarmed by a gun's presence."

I guess I'm just one of those fanatics "clinging to God and guns".

[Treo]

I came up in a Pentacostal church and now attend a non demoninational full gospel church.

I don't have Bible handy or I'd quote Scripture on this one but instead this is what I believe

I believe that I am in the church that God wants me in. I wouldn't leave my church W/ out a direct release from God.

I believe that A. God has placed the Pastor of my church in a position of spiritual authority over that church. As such he is acountable to God for what he teaches us and what he tells us.

I believe that my Pastor hear from God and if he came to me and said " Tom I believe that God has directed me to ask that you not carry in church" I would accept it as God's will unless I had a direct leading otherwise that I felt was from God

As an article of Faith I would rather be unarmed in church & in the will of God than armed and out of the will of God. I would trust God even looking down the barrel of a gun

The above is based on my personal belief system I'm not asking any one else to follow it. I will try to edit in the refferences later

[CrankyOldGuy]

Having been a misguided Roman Cathothlic watching in disgust as that church defended it's raping of children I realized that although God is always right, mans' church can be very wrong. I changed churches due to my belief in "right" as I believe God defines it and am glad I did not have to do so again.

Treo, I have the deepest respect for your beliefs, and I have first hand experience with the evils of "church" vs the goodness of God. I hope you understand and do not take my earlier post as anti-church or anti-christian, it was not meant as such.

[notorious]

Treo, I respect that completely. Very intelligent post and even if people disagree, they have to respect it. Too bad that is a concept most today cannot comprehend, how to actually respect different positions without getting postal all over it.

[Treo]

Thanks guys

[sophijo]

Everyone here should realize that, afterall, Moses was the President of the NRA. :)

[m43ma1l]

As a pastor I don't have a problem with people CC in church. I would have a problem with open carry - not that I would personally have a problem with it but I thing it would be a distraction for others.
(But come to thing about it I have done a service at a Cowboy shoot - open carry would have gone unnoticed there)
If someone was carrying open in church and I asked them to put it in there pocket I would expect them to comply out of respect for others.

[notorious]

Moses may have been the President of the NRA but he couldn't part the sea of hypocrisy surrounding the gun banners.

[jon_in_wv]

Everyone here should realize that, afterall, Moses was the President of the NRA.

That one cracked me up. Good one.

[OleCodger]

I now have even more respect for Moses! Although it's illegel to "carry" in church in this state, this thread has certainly given me more faith in mankind. If it were left up to our pastor, I think his response would be "Sure, then there will be two of us"!

[jon_in_wv]

Once again that is a case of the State infringing on a religious organizations rights by saying you can or can not carry on their property. That still strikes me as very strange.

[withdrawn34]

Indeed; churches should be treated just like any other piece of private property, which is exactly what it is. Separation of church and state goes both ways.

[notorious]

Separation of church and state has nothing to do with how property is governed. After all, the church has to obey the tax code for 501(c)(3) purposes too, right?

Just remember, Congress shall make no law which establishes an official American church or make it so that 1 church is preferred over the other religions. That's all that the clause says.

[astocks2622]

absolutely, I've got a big pouc on the front of my Bible case that my Bersa 380 fits in nicely. and the pastor approves :D

[astocks2622]

and BTW, Treo, very well said

[OleCodger]

Treo, you make me mighty proud to be a member of this site! I couldn't agree more. To paraphrase...."If God be for us, who can be against us?".

I'm sure that when this site originated, it wasn't intended to bring in religious beliefs but this has sure been refreshing........

[22lr]

I take my S&W 5906 every time (remember that Colorado church).

Treo, im right there with you. Guns are important and all that but God takes the front seat.

[Robert]

I was asked to be a member of our security team here in Colorado Springs. After New Life, the church wanted to take no chances. I carry my 1911 under an my untucked shirt. Only members of the team know who is armed. We are all either present or former military and LEOs. The church sponsored a CCW class for anyone interested. From what I heard something like 10 or 15 people came. My decision to carry was a long one and included much thought and prayer as to how to best trust and obey God. But I feel that I was given permission to do so. Call me crazy but I know when God is speaking to me. If I can help defend the congregation from any evil I will do so willingly even to the point of giving my life.

[CoRoMo]

I make it a habit of carrying everyday/everywhere, and that includes church service every Sunday. I carry my daily piece, the P11.

I'm happy to know that our pastor is an extremely gun friendly old fellow. Our church is loosely tied to New Life Church in the Springs where the shooting occurred a year ago. I used to not carry in church, but the very next Sunday after the shooting, I began a habit that continues to this day. In this day and age, you can't deny that these things can and probably will happen again. For some reason my church doesn't staff any security like New Life does, but I know that several members like me are packing and trained.

[Mayo]

Ask this question again after today.:(

[Rockwell1]

Has something happened today that would make us ask this question again?

[geronimo509]

yeah a tragedy in IL.

[Poohgyrr]

Believe me, this happens more often then we hear about.

[Rockwell1]

I think I have to agree with Treo on this one. If I truly believe that God is Sovereign and I truly believe that all things work together for the good to those that love the Lord. Then I truly have to place my life unreservedly in His hands.

Now I do carry in church and I do believe that I am called by God to do so But I also believe that God placed me in my church and only God can tell me it's time to go. To take it a step further my Pastor does NOT know that I carry so if he came to me and asked me not to carry I'd take it as a direct word from God.

To quote Treo once more I'd much rather be unarmed and IN the will of God than armed to the teeth and OUT of the will of God

[CoRoMo]

I was anticipating another thread about the latest tragedy, but I'm glad to see this one brought back out. I will not, ever, make the mistake of not carrying in church. I care about those people too deeply not to offer my portion.

My church, oddly IMO, doesn't have any form of security detail. I'm part of the usher team, so I have reason to be standing, monitoring, moving through the crowd, directing people's movement, and I keep a conscious level of situational awareness. If I can keep an alert eye and spot something that is out of place or someone acting a bit too odd, that is the least I can offer.

[Rockwell1]

One Sunday in a church I used to go to we were told, in the usher's meeting before church that there was a rumor that someone may try to rob the offering during service.

So service starts all the ushers are a little keyed up, in the middle of the offering (this church always preached about why you should give before actually passing the baskets) we hear a BANG, the back door of the Sanctuary opens and two guys rush in firing pistols.

Long story short it was a skit about how not paying your tithe is robbing God. Thank GOD no one in that church had a gun

The DUMBEST thing I have ever seen in a church

[notorious]

:scrutiny:They are so lucky there were no cops or CCW holders in attendance. There would be 2 dead role players and a lot of explanations to the families of the aggrieved. The preface of rumors of robberies would clear the shooters since they were told of the threat!

[Rockwell1]

They are so lucky there were no cops or CCW holders in attendance.

Actually a city police officer and a sheriff's deputy were in attendance but I think they were in on the "joke" and this WAS prior to "New Life"

[mrghostwalker]

I always carry in church for the very reason that wackos like to stroll in the door and kill people.

[crashbuell]

I normally carry my Colt govt 380. It's little and goes right into an iwb holster that I position in the small of my back. But, I have also carried my High Standard Crusader Compact. It's big, but with the right shirt, I can pull it off.

[Poohgyrr]

Any "adult" who took part in that stunt is STUPID, period. Thank the Lord most adults are responsible enough, and wise enough, to know better.

I sincerely hope, and pray, those STUPID people cause no further harm to their families or other innocents.

That stunt was irresponsible and stupid, to say the least.

[20nickels]

Why would carrying in a church be different than carrying anywhere else???? Unless you stupid state excludes it.... Nebraska.

[Hungry Seagull]

Rockwell1......


That stunt will certainly have cost lives damn it :fire:

Churches need to STOP pulling these kinds of STUPID stunts.

That bang might be answered by return fire.

Ive already made a personal choice to carry in Church in the future... that is between me and God and Im at peace with it.

But these stunts MUST stop. It makes me angry to no end that these drama skits or whatever you call em must be run against a people unprepared or drilled to deal with something like this.

[Rockwell1]

Churches need to STOP pulling these kinds of STUPID stunts

While I agree with you, please note that I DID say this "stunt" occured pre New Life. I'm fairly certain no church would do anything like this today.

[Hungry Seagull]

Point taken, I absorb and process the mock stunt and the rest of the words blurred on me.

Apologies. :banghead:

[PedalBiker]

There was a recent shooting where a pastor was killed, he deflected the first bullet with his bible, the congregants thought it was a "stunt" at first, so he died with no assistance.

http://www.kansascity.com/news/breaking_news/story/1073983.html

(Kansas newspaper, but it happened in the gun hating state of Illinios)


Our church has a Kindergarden, and I was told in CCW class that in Colorado you can't carry on any school property. I haven't sought a legal opinion on the matter

[notorious]

What's NEW LIFE?

[Rockwell1]

What's NEW LIFE?

One of the largest churches in America ( located in Colorado Springs Colorado) the scene of a church shooting I THINK in Dec 2006 in which a man by the name of Mathew Murray opened fire in the church parking lot killing 3 people (including sisters Rachel & Stephanie Werks). Murray was shot inside the church by an armed private security guard named Jean Assam. Because Murray was wearing a ballistic vest and kevlar helmet Assam's shots didn't kill him, he killed himself when she approached him.

[notorious]

Jean Assam... was she the off-duty cop or armed guard they hired specifically because of threats or something?

[Hungry Seagull]

A Vested armored BG. Worst nightmare, however perfect for the Brennekes.

But I doubt that God will be so good as to allow me to bring Rem and company to his House.

Because of all this Ive started to think that perhaps it's time NOT to attend a unsecure Church and recieve his Word through prayer and worship from either the Internet or over the air on Satellite or Radio.

I dont know yet. But I feel that we are entering a future where Churches are going to be attractive to criminals.

[esquare]

Because of all this Ive started to think that perhaps it's time NOT to attend a unsecure Church and recieve his Word through prayer and worship from either the Internet or over the air on Satellite or Radio.

Go to church - everyone needs a church family ... but continue to press the issue, and get vocal about it in your church. There may be a few others that agree with you.

BTW, how does AR define a place of worship? It seems that, based on the definition, the pastor could designate a small chapel or room as the 'official place of worship' and everywhere else as something else. Has anyone sought a legal opinion on this? Just a wild idea.

[Hungry Seagull]

Well, I dont know about AR laws on worship. We had gone from a donated office space for the early services onto rented space inside a shopping mall and finally built the Church to design to fit the donated land with a bank financing.

Years ago I used to regularly go to what is called "Mobile Chapel" in various locations, usually Harrisburg at the 76 there long ago. Mobile Chapel were services held in a trailer converted to a small chapel open 24/7 for those who needed it.

I dont know if any still survive today, but would imagine so. It's the closest I see to smaller churches. Another small public worships were in Flying J's and they would call to worship on sundays in some places. It would be interesting because in one room there is a large screen playing a popular football game and in the other room worshipping and singing going on while in the third room a large group of travelers are eating and hydrating.

[SSN Vet]

an armed private security guard named Jean Assam

Jean Assam... was she the off-duty cop or armed guard they hired specifically because of threats or something?

Jean Assam had previously worked (several years before the CO incident) in Minnesota as a police officer. She was canned over statements made after removing a person from a bus as part of her duties.

She was a member of the New Life church and a VOLUNTEER on their "security team". She was a CO CCW permit holder and was carrying her personal firearm.

She was not a paid or licensed security gaurd. She had never been an LEO in CO.

Many churches can hardly muster the funds to pay their staff and carry out their ministries, let alone hire security guards. And even a large church such as New Life, would rather put that kind of money toward ministry. As is often the case, churches turn to their members to help get things done. I've happily volunteered to clean, paint, and hang vinyl siding at my church over the years, as well as teach Sunday school.

I carry Every Sunday. Even when acting as an usher and serving Communion.

My pastor knows I carry at church and does himself on occasion.

Without running airport style security, you'll never be able to prevent the taking of a life in church. But you can prevent a massacre.

[scottishclaymore]

Absolutely always. If the same whackjob had walked into our little congregation of 80 this last Sunday, things would have gone down a lot differently. In a small congregation in the middle of the DFW metroplex we have a handful of people armed, and we all know who we are and what we are doing.

[Clarence]

I pack in church every Sunday. Usually my 642.

[Rockwell1]

She was a member of the New Life church and a VOLUNTEER on their "security team". She was a CO CCW permit holder and was carrying her personal firearm.

In Colorado she was considered to be a private security guard, and had operated as the personal bodyguard to the senior pastor. What she was NOT was some random civilian parishoner who just happened to be in the right place at the right time.

She was not a paid or licensed security gaurd.

She IS a paid licensed Security guard, I've spoken to her directly at the Colorado Springs City Administration building while she was wearing a security uniform.

[searcher451]

Churches, like hospitals, can be dangerous places to be these days. If you aren't carrying in church, you are potentially leaving your fate in the hands of others ... and often these others do not have the best interests of you or your family in mind.

Legal issues aside, if the church folks tell you that packing is not allowed at any given congregation, my recommendation is to find another church and another congregation that does allow it.

[cougar1717]

I do not carry in church. Paul writes in Romans 13:1-7 that we are to obey the governing authorities over us. The Missouri CCW law states that it is illegal to carry in a place of worship. So I do not. If the punishment for your sins are paid by the blood of Christ, what is there to fear? If you don't think this makes sense, the "good person" test explains a lot more than I can write here.

[Rockwell1]

Good ol' Ray Comfort

[Poohgyrr]

"While I agree with you, please note that I DID say this "stunt" occured pre New Life. I'm fairly certain no church would do anything like this today."


Unfortunately, this was not the first time for this to have happened in the English speaking world.

Christian churches have been the victims of violence for hundreds of years. Same for other reigions.

With the development of radio, television, video recorders, and the internet, there really is no good reason for anyone in a developed country not to know that physical violence does happen inside and about churches.

Each person does however, choose how they plan ahead - to deal with this violence, should it ever happen to visit them.

Physical violence is nothing new. Some people choose to be sheep, some choose to be a sheepdog, and others choose to be the wolf.

[stormspotter]

I live in Missouri and my pastor wants me to be armed. He has gived his permission and has informed our church board that there are a couple of CCW holders in the congregation. There was no disapproval.

cougar1717, in Missouri you are allowed to carry in church with "the permission of the minister or person representing religious organization"

Here is a link to the Missouri CCW law and it's on page 4.
http://www.mshp.dps.mo.gov/MSHPWeb/Publications/Brochures/documents/SHP-863.pdf

BTW it's either a CZ P-01 or CZ 75BD.

[Rockwell1]

Some people choose to be sheep, some choose to be a sheepdog, and others choose to be the wolf.

And some choose to be none of the above.

[Intrepid Dad]

Rockwell1:

Quote:
She was not a paid or licensed security gaurd.

She IS a paid licensed Security guard, I've spoken to her directly at the Colorado Springs City Administration building while she was wearing a security uniform.
__________________

I can't say that you've never seen Jeanne Assam in a uniform, but I go to New Life and I have never seen her in a uniform. She wears plain clothes as do the other volunteer security guards. She works at a Christian ministry during the week and is not a professional security guard.

You are correct when you say she was not a random civilian who was in the right place at the right time. She was specifically stationed in center of the church as a result of the news of the shooting at the YWAM office in Denver.

[notorious]

So what do you consider yourself, Rockwell? The Goat or the Ewe?

As for church security, a few of us local LA cops were hired by a local Synagogue as plainclothes armed security because they were getting a lot of threats. Smart move.

The Rabbi and his church had no problems with having armed protection in the house of God against potential threats because they know the reality of the world.

[Rockwell1]

can't say that you've never seen Jeanne Assam in a uniform

When I saw her she was wearing a Securitas uniform

But I make no claim to know her personally

what do you consider yourself, Rockwell? The Goat or the Ewe?

I consider myself to be a citizen who chooses to carry a handgun for the protection of myself and my family. As another poster commented my CHP did not come with a bat cape & a utility belt.

[notorious]

So you are a sheepdog... who selectively guards a subset of sheep.

[Rockwell1]

So you are a sheepdog... who selectively guards a subset of sheep.

Read the article Sheep, Sheepdogs & Wolves the author makes it clear he's refering to military personel.

Falling into the "Sheepdog" mythology is (IMO) a mistake for anyone who holds a CHP

[Hungry Seagull]

Hm. I dont do sheep. I dont chase sheep. I dont eat sheep either. So.. sheep, no; sheepdog; nope. Wolf... maybe but no.

That makes me a Mountain Cat. I think. Whatever that adds up to LOL.

[JohnKSa]

Jean Assam... was she the off-duty cop or armed guard they hired specifically because of threats or something?NEITHER.

She was not an off-duty cop although she had previous law-enforcement experience. She was part of a volunteer (unpaid) group of church members who provided security for the church. Although they were alerted by the previous incident at another location belonging to the church, the group was already in place, it was not created specifically as a result of the prior shooting incident.She IS a paid licensed Security guard, I've spoken to her directly at the Colorado Springs City Administration building while she was wearing a security uniform.She may be a security guard now, but as I recall she was not employed in security or LE work at the time of the incident.You are correct when you say she was not a random civilian who was in the right place at the right time. She was specifically stationed in center of the church as a result of the news of the shooting at the YWAM office in Denver.While the volunteer security group was taking special precautions as a result of the prior shooting, they were not formed as a result of the shooting. The group was in place before the earlier shooting and was composed of volunteer church members. It was formed as a result of much earlier (unrelated) threats against the pastor of the church.

Assam was head of the team due to her previous LE experience.

On the one hand, it's accurate to say that she wasn't simply a church member with a gun & a carry permit since she had an official position as head of the church security team. On the other hand it's not accurate to imply that she was a professional security guard at the time. She was an unpaid volunteer, a member of the church just like the other volunteers on the team.

[notorious]

Read the article Sheep, Sheepdogs & Wolves the author makes it clear he's refering to military personel.

Falling into the "Sheepdog" mythology is (IMO) a mistake for anyone who holds a CHP

Got it. I don't adhere to the strict definitions of the book as we expanded it here to include cops and people who take care of themselves and family as sheepdog. The sheep are the ones who succumb to crime because they can't or won't fight or expect the government to take care of them, which is just nuts.

[Poohgyrr]

As I understand, the good Col. works primarily military and that is a primary audience for him. But that is not his only audience, and he has made this quite clear in his appearances and so on.

If you are willing to fight the goblin, then that makes you a sheepdog. The analogy is a simple one, because this is a simple situation. Either we fight, or we do not.

There are thugs who only respond to, and respect, physical force.

Some people choose to ignore this fact of life; they plan to be victims.

The Christian Bible, and other religious works, allow for the defense of life.

It really is a simple thing.

[notorious]

sheepdogs

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As I understand, the good Col. works primarily military and that is a primary audience for him. But that is not his only audience, and he has made this quite clear in his appearances and so on.

If you are willing to fight the goblin, than that makes you a sheepdog. The analogy is a simple one, because this is a simple situation. Either we fight, or we do not.

There are thugs who only respond to, and respect, physical force.

Some people choose to ignore this fact of life; they plan to be victims.

The Christian Bible, and other religious works, allow for the defense of life.

It really is a simple thing.

That is pretty much our understanding of it too.

SHEEP = victims/passive citizens

SHEEPDOG = self-reliant citizens who refuse to be victims

[OleCodger]

I think that the true test is......In your absence, your wife or child was being molested. What would you want a passerby to do? In my opinion, the answer is very clear. I'd pray that the world's best sheepdog that was part wolf would suddenly make his presence and take whatever action, possibly plus a little more than necessary, to subdue the attacker, hopefully with a .45 caliber hollowpoint extremely well placed. I would also pray that he would make it very clear to the attacker what was about to happen just prior to squeezing the trigger.

[notorious]

I would also pray that he would make it very clear to the attacker what was about to happen just prior to squeezing the trigger.

Say hi to the devil for me?

[Rockwell1]

you are willing to fight the goblin, then that makes you a sheepdog. The analogy is a simple one, because this is a simple situation. Either we fight, or we do not.

I see entirely too many people (mainly posting here) that take the sheep dog analogy too far. I'm talking about the types that buy "CCW Badges" or the little sheep dog pins that I've seen advertised here. The type that somehow think their CCW imputes JR. police authority to them. Therefore, I get neverous when I see the word used, as do the majority of posters here (feel free to search the term)

I think that the true test is......In your absence, your wife or child was being molested. What would you want a passerby to do

I would pray that they would duck and give my wife a clear field of fire because niether one of us is willing to trust our safety to the kindness of passersby.

[CoRoMo]

I honestly can't recall a 7+ page thread where not a single THR staff member stopped by to chime in with at least one little post.:confused:
This might be the only one.:scrutiny:

[brin747]

NH law does not prohibit me from carrying anywhere but a courthouse. I always have at least my 642 on me. I go to church every Sunday.

Do the math...

[OleCodger]

Yeah, Notorius, you gottit. Well, on second thought, I forgot....the attacker has rights also. Maybe we should just subdue him, take him to court, then on to rehabilitation, then through a half way house, then gradually mix him back into society with an ankle brace so we'd know where he is at all times (not know what he's doing though which would again be violating his rights). Then after his second offense, take him back through the same routine mentioned above but let him know that we're serious and that if it happens again, stronger measures will be taken. Then when he again breaks the law.................wait a minute, forget it.......I like my first scenerio best!!!!

Rockwell, I congratulate you on having a wife that is proactive. My wife isn't anti-gun and is very comfortable with me carrying, even encourages it. However she has no desire to go to the range and shoot.......much less carry so I drop it right there! But I do strongly agree with your alternative......

[Quoheleth]

Well, for the 2nd time in 2 weeks, our church property has been burglarized. Two weeks ago, our youth building was broken into. A 26" TV, DVD/VCR, and stereo were stolen - about $400 worth of electronics - and they did $700 worth of damage to the door & door frame (had to be completely replaced with new locks). Tonight, I returned to church for a 7pm meeting after leaving at 3:45. Between those times, someone broke into our tractor/utility shed and stole about $400 worth of lawn equipment.

Good news: no one was hurt. Only stuff.
Bad news: $5000 deductable, and this is two separate incidents - can't aggregate towards the deductable, anyway.
"good" news: Neither event was close to hitting the deductable.

I'm the pastor. Took the Texas CHL last month and am waiting for my plastic. As soon as it comes, I'll have my SP101 with me.

Q

[Hungry Seagull]

You think a security system will cover that for less than 5K....

So sorry to hear about the losses.

[notorious]

I hear ya... I laugh at the CCW badges and never seen a sheepdog pin. I am not advocating any CHL holder to act like the police but I also don't want them to be passive in the face of evil.

I guess I see sheepdog as anyone who will not lie down and be a victim while waiting for the government to save them.

[OleCodger]

Sorry to hear about your losses but so proud that you obviously feel the way you do about self defense. I would like to have been present when Christ kicked out the money changers while showing some temper!!

[Quoheleth]

We have a security system in our main building. For some reason, when the security system was installed 8 years ago, they didn't want to drop the coin on securing the youth building. Our shed isn't secure enough, that when the wind blows the doors rattle - we would have too many false alarms.

[sigh] Saved a few nickles, lost $1000 worth of goods.

FWIW, I know carrying won't stop theft. But it may save my life, someday, as I'm up there by myself lots of times and we're in a secluded place.

Q

edit: Christ kicking the $$-changers out of the temple is this Sunday's Gospel lesson; John 2.

[OleCodger]

It's sure good to know that others feel exactly the way that I do!!!! I certainly don't want the job of a policeman but at the same time, I don't want to have to wait for him to arrive either (usually to fill out the report of what happened). I certainly don't go patrolling to fight crime but if I happen to be present when some one's life is in danger from a thug, I won't stand by wringing my hands in horror at what I see happening. I'll let the ACLU and others in that category handle the hand wringing!

[notorious]

Ole Codger, I felt that way since I was a kid... that we should never have to back down from evil because the only appropriate response to force used against you is overwhelming force in return to ensure victory. There's no 2nd place when evil comes looking for you.

Of course, I am a cop now so I am a different position than what the other guy was talking about with CCW badge wearers.

[Poohgyrr]

I believe God charges us with certain duties or responsibilites, among which is included the defense of innocent life.

And I find it amazing, that regular decent people generally continue living their chosen lifestyle (paying bills, working, raising families, recreation that does not get them booked into jail, etc...), whether or not they choose to CCW. These folks demonstrate this in the way they live their lives everyday.

Of course the thugs also generally demonstrate their chosen lifestyle (robbery, theft, murder, etc...) as well. They let their actions speak for themselves, as the saying goes...

A person who insists on disarming regular decent people, and accusing us of acting like thugs, is not a friend; and generally is either brainwashed, or has another motive in mind and is not to be trusted.

Our Mothers should not be mandated to stand toe to toe and punch it out with strong tough street thugs.....

This is pretty simple.....

[Rockwell1]

This is pretty simple.....

I'm sorry but I'm not sure at all what you were trying to say. Could you clarify please ?

[Poohgyrr]

This is pretty simple.....
I'm sorry but I'm not sure at all what you were trying to say. Could you clarify please ?


I'm afraid it's my turn now. I don't know what you need clarified.

[Rockwell1]

I'm afraid it's my turn now. I don't know what you need clarified.

With all due respect, your entire post as it relates to the discussion at hand .

[Poohgyrr]

The pastor was a bit disturbed and said he prefer that we didn't in the house of God but I told him no disrespect, Padre, but we have reasons why we always carry. I don't think he realized we were all cops.

Once he realized it, he let it go. On second thought, I recall seeing many paintings and artwork depicting a knight with his weapons inside a church, so there's probably not a prohibition against weapons in a house of worship.


For what it's worth, we have a couple local Pastors who, during memorial services for fallen Officers, have told us we are God's soldiers and meant to take the fight to the bad guys.

My opinion, responsible CCW doesn't mean you are hunting thugs or being Dirty Harry like some people say, but being ready to responsibly defend your family is part of being a good Christian, regardless of denomination.

Like it has been mentioned or suggested throughout this thread, not every Pastor, or other people, welcomes responsible concealed carry inside Church. While I strongly disagree, I do respect their right to have an opinion, and generally do not attend their services.

[notorious]

For what it's worth, we have a couple local Pastors who, during memorial services for fallen Officers, have told us we are God's soldiers and meant to take the fight to the bad guys.

My opinion, responsible CCW doesn't mean you are hunting thugs or being Dirty Harry like some people say, but being ready to responsibly defend your family is part of being a good Christian, regardless of denomination.

Like it has been mentioned or suggested throughout this thread, not every Pastor, or other people, welcomes responsible concealed carry inside Church. While I strongly disagree, I do respect their right to have an opinion, and generally do not attend their services.

I agree with the Pastor's right to not want people to carry inside his church building but I do not believe it is God's policy to disarm his flock at the door to his house. I strongly think the individual Pastor's opinion is just that, his/her opinion on how to run his/her particular congregation.

I have never heard of anyone being disarmed in history while going inside a Judeo-Christian church building as a rule, and the times I have, it was only by particular bishops or regimes as a power play, which indicates to me that there is no fixed rule by God but rather by man and his whims.

As a matter of fact, to take it further, God said our body is the temple so are we not to have weapons on our bodies too?