[Correia]

This thread is in response to some discussion here: www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=21681

Now this is what I do in 3 gun competition. Your milage may vary.

One of the keys to doing really well with in the shotgun stages is keeping the gun loaded. Many 3 gun SG stages run 12, 16, or 20 rounds. As this is on the clock, keeping that SG topped off is a real key to success.

Originally I loaded one shell at a time, holding the gun with my right hand by the stock, and using my left (support) hand to reach down and grab single shells off my belt or side saddle and stuff them in the loading port.

Other competitors would use their right hand to reach down and grab shells, but that seemed more dangerous to me as you would have to regrasp your SG near the trigger under time, as well as in a "serious" sense it takes your hand away from the trigger should you need to crank off a fast unexpected shot.

At last years WC3gun match I watched the guys from team SVI run a couple of shotgun stages. They were amazing. They loaded 4 shells at a time! It looked like a magic trick, I'm guessing they were doing it in around a second. I talked to them afterwards and they were kind enough to demonstrate the technique for me.

First carry your shells so that you can grab the number that you want easily with out banging into other shells. These guys were using the little plastic belt caddies that hold the shells horizontal. Reach down with your left hand, grab the shells so that they are all parallel in your palm, cup them as you bring them up to the loading port. Now use your thumb to rapid fire push them into the tube.

It is harder to explain than it is to do.

I'm not nearly as good as it yet as those pros, but I've been practicing to the point that I can load 4 in under 2 seconds. I've done it in 1.5 in a match. It can be done about as fast a pistol reload. I use a 15 round bandolier that hooks to my belt (that way the shells are in the same place every time, regular bandoliers can shift). I load 4, leave a space, load 4, leave a space, and load 4.

Practice by getting a ton of dummy shells, remove the cap and the mag spring, and then go to work. The dummy shells will just slide down the tube and fall out, to be reloaded into your bandolier or caddy. Once you get the hang of it, put the spring back in because it is a little more difficult with the added spring tension. Start with 2, then 3, eventually you can do 4. I can't do 5 as my hands aren't big enough. By the time your thumbs are bleeding you should have mastered it! :D

[Bruce626]

Thank you for that explanation.

As one of the "klutz" posters on that other thread, I think I get the drift... except for the initial grab of the shells and the thumb/finger movement to separate one and flip it around and load it. I do want to learn this. Is there any chance that you or some friend could do a series of photos and post them here?

Maybe I'm just too much of a "visual" learner, but I'd sure appreciate anything you could post.

Thanks.

[Erick Gelhaus]

Correia-

How secure is your grip / how much control do you have on these shells as your loading? Specifically, the ones that aren't going into the tube?

Any thoughts on the fumble factor?

Not a flame, just curious.

Erick

[Kimber Kid]

3 gun competition? A race? How about extended mags? Autos rule? I must be missing something. I, like the old bull will walk down and "visit all the heifers". There are many ways to make SC more challenging but loading speed doesn't reflect any real field sport. But that's just me.

KK

[Dave McCracken]

Larry, I'm impressed. I need a new bandolier.

[riverdog]

Many 3 gun SG stages run 12, 16, or 20 rounds. There are many ways to make SC more challenging but loading speed doesn't reflect any real field sport. There are more shotgun sports than can be found on the typical Clay fields.

The club I shoot with has a typical Trap, Skeet and 5-Stand (SC) field set-up. There isn't any option for shooting Practical shotgun competition let alone 3 Gun. Due to geography we're strictly limited to 7.5-9 shot. Don't even think about setting up a shotgun combat course; no buck or slugs will ever be allowed.

[Correia]

Erick, like I said, your milage may vary. If you have somebody who is very good with their fingers then it isn't that hard. But it is far more fumble prone than loading single shells.

For example, I've shot a couple of matches this year that were below freezing temps. I had some fumble problems on those, just because my thumb was too cold to feel the shells enter the mag.

However I think that even if you fumble and drop a shell you are still faster than loading singly.

For serious use (not a game) maybe loading 2 at a time instead of 4. 2 seems almost fumble proof to me. If I'm shooting a stage that doesn't require it, I will load 3 or 2 at a time as it is less fumble prone.

KK, I don't understand what you are getting at? I can't ever see needing this for dove hunting or sporting clays either. :D Doesn't mean that 3 gun isn't super fun, and one of the fastest growing shooting sports around. As for extended tubes, I haven't seen to many 16 shot tubes.

Autos rule? Sure, but some of us like our pumps. I don't get it? :confused:

Bruce, I don't have a digital camera. But I'll see what I can do. I'm a poor person to watch do this, I wish I would have gotten some video of the real pros shooting. It was amazing.

I'll try explaining the actual feeding again. You don't rotate the shells, you grab them pointing the direction you want them to go. On my bandolier, the primers are pointing towards my left side. My left hand grabs all of the shells between thumb and forefinger, as the hand comes up it is rotated, palm up under the loading port, now the shells are cupped. The shell closest to the thumb is shoved in first, then the next closest and so on.

[sm]

Yes pics, sketches would help.

I think If I understand your are feeding like one does when he 'feeds' marbles to get ready to 'shoot' a marble...oh heck..." scooching them from thumb /index position sliding off palm passing over inside of 1st joint of index and second finger pushed into (loading)by thumb real fast...right?

I've used the belt carriers for slugs, and bandoliers for shot loads.

For me, I have more control by using my weak hand to hold shotgun where receiver just meets bbl, I use my strong hand (right) to feed...I have rotated to facilitate loaded ( curled the base of receiver). I started this habit with a SX1 and the bolt release was easy to depress after dropping a fresh shell into breech, depress, shuck the remaining shells, and go. Habit stayed with hand position using 870 and a BPS set up for games.

Doesn't mean I can't learn a better way though...thanks

[TechBrute]

Any thoughts on the fumble factor? My thoughts are that the fumble factor doesn't matter in competition. If you fumble, you lose, go home, and have a beer. In a situation, I doubt anyone would advocate reloading like that since the fumble factor could kill you. Again, a game is a game.

[Soap]

Thanks Correia! I've been trying it with my Benelli but I'm just not sure if I'm doing it right...practice makes perfect I suppose!

[Duke of Lawnchair]

Correia, thanks for the information!

[SDC]

I'd like to try this, but I'm still not sure I've got the right picture in my mind; would it be possible for you to post some pictures, or maybe even a small MPEG of how this is done?

[akanotken]

advocating a hydralic MEC or something :)

At my next match, all reloads are to be done with the gun on the shoulder (more tactically correct?). You don't mention where the gun is located. Do you flip yours over?

Is this a widespread requirement? First I've seen of it, but I'm pretty new to the 3 gun world.

[Correia]

I don't flip mine over at all, but some very fast people do. I've never heard the reload from the shoulder rule before. That seems kind of silly as I've seen some shooters who that would be physically impossible for. I reload from the shoulder, but there are some people who lack the upper body strength to hold the gun in that manner for any real amount of time.

Plus if you are reloading on the move or from behind cover (as you should if at all possible), then there is no way that the shotgun is on your shoulder.

[sanchezero]

there are some people who lack the upper body strength to hold the gun in that manner for any real amount of time.

When reloading from the shoulder, just lean forward and let the muzzle drop...

:D

[blades67]

I'm going to try that tonight. Very cool!

[PvtPyle]

This is what I do:

http://pvtpyle.com/Weapon%20pics/LEO%20Saiga%201.JPG

Reload 8 at a time. Once you practice with it, it is pretty quick and easy.

[Andrew Wyatt]

try doing that without magazines, though.

[PvtPyle]

Why would I do it without a magazine? While this would be a great gun for situations other than gaming, THATS why I got it, for gaming (plus it looks evil :evil: ). I also have a remington 1100 (which also holds 8 rds) that I finally got running right, but reloads with this are quick and easy. And they make 5rd mags for it as well for those other applications. But this is a combat shotgun, and it will work just fine for combat games.

[Andrew Wyatt]

*shrug* when i shoot in 3 gun, i shoot my HD shotgun. when i shoot skeet, i shoot my HD shotgun, when i hunt birds, i shoot my HD shotgun, and i have trouble understanding the use of competition as anything but as a way of showing you what skills you need to work on to be a better shooter in a lifesaving situation.

as for the no magazine comment, on the slug stages at the swat match, they only allow you to station loaded rounds at the shoot area where you have to do select slug, not a loaded magazine.

[Skunkabilly]

It's hard for me to load from the shoulder with my weak hand. The pistol grip helps a little though.

I don't have much upper body strength. Gotta eat more.

[Correia]

PvtPyle, I am insanely jealous of your Saiga.

When we going shooting? :D

[PvtPyle]

Well, I just "aquired" 250 rounds of slugs and 500 rounds of #4 buck. What time do you get off tomorrow?

[akanotken]

Tell me more about your 8 round mags. I have friends that have unfilled orders for a long time. I've got a 20 ga and I'd love to get some 8 rnders for it. I'm hoping it's not a LEO thing? I'm hearing they are available in Russia, legal in the US and almost impossible to get imported?

TIA

[PvtPyle]

While there has yet to be a hard fast ruling from ATF on this (since it does not have a lot of evil features in the stock civilian configuration), most dealers will only sell the 8rd mags to LEO's and other dealers. Only one of mine is stamped (and in ink at that) but they would not sell it to me without an agreement letter for restricted sales and a copy of my FFL.

Maybe in a year or so that will change.

[Battler]

I saw someone who welded 2 mags together to make a (10?) on the 20ga Saiga.

Not sure if it's legal or not - vague area of the law.

What's the cyclic like on the AK shotgun?

What has led competitive shooters towards the tube-fed instead of mag-fed? Which is "Better"? Has the tube-fed just gotten popularity because of a good range of sporting actions?

[Andrew Wyatt]

tube fed is simpler, and you can shoot one , load one.

you also don't have to worry about keeping all of your ammuniton in magazines.

[PvtPyle]

Tube feed is a tried and proven method and system. It works and works %99.999 of the time.

But with the bolt hold open on this gun (and no magazine induced bolt hold open) you can do the same thing. Both take lots of practice to get good with.

And for storing ammo in the magazines, it isn't much different than keeping them in belt keepers, or a pouch. You still have to get them from somewhere. Now I dont have to fumble with loading them one at a time and dropping them due to my poor dexterity. With a side saddle for keeping slucgs readily accessable, I think I can make it work.

It is a relatively new system and new to the 3 gun scene. Time will tell how well it works out. I dont get paid to do this so it really doesn't cost me any income to do this (meaning if I dont win I am not out anything other than my time and game related fees), but it is fun for me now that I have gotten into the gamer mindset and just go to play and see what areas I need to work on. I would have bought this gun even if I wasn't playing these kinds of games. Just cause it looks SO EVIL!:evil:

[akanotken]

I bought one as it was very affordable, and the idea of an instantaneous 5 shell load made me weak in the knees.

I have noticed that local competitions seem to set up "Saiga unfriendly" courses, so we must have their attention and have'em worried. Things like requiring mid string shell changes (one match required loading 2 shells at a time, shoot 2, load 2 shoot 2, etc). I can't understand the mentallity, I consider the Saiga a viable choice for tac use. Not quite the same as the speed loaders other "gamers" use.

There is a natural handicap. Starting capacity. any stage of 7-10 targets can be shot without a change of any kind for tube fed shotguns.

I don't think the law is unclear at all. As I read it, the only evil feature it has is a detachable mag. No pistol grip (ewww, that makes it very dangerous), no fixed mag capacity of any amount(mag isn't fixed, its detachable), no folding stock . But that's just me. I wish others saw it that way.

It's a fun gun. While we are on the topic, could someone remind me of the settings for the gas adjustment at the front of the gun? One position is normal, one is stout but I can never remember which is which.

[Andrew Wyatt]

if someone made an AK/saiga matched set that had a decent safety, and good sights and i didn't live in a socialist hellhole, i'd be all over it.

the saigas need extra stuff besides the gun and ammo to work. that's a bit of a problem for me, given the role shotguns perform.

[PvtPyle]

Well Andy, thats some of the things we are working on....:D

How about this:

1) Ambi-safety (you loose this if you keep the side rail mount, but we'll cover that in a minute)

2) AR style flip app peep sight on the back of the receiver cover, not unlike the one Krebs is making for the AK.

3) Replacing the rear sight with a 2" rail for your aimpoint.

4) Smoothing out the trigger, and lightening it to about 4.5lbs.

5) Adding a bolt hold open that works off the mags, like the SVD has, or the commercial Saiga shotguns have on the new models. I would prefer tapping the receiver and installing the SVD style BHOD. You just bump the charging handle to the rear and it releases sending the bolt home on a live round.

We shall see how it progresses.