[Zen21Tao]

About a year ago I bought a Glock 29 10mm and started to reload 10mm for it. I have since become a big fan of 10mm. With that said, a couple days ago I was socializing at my favorite local gunshop when I came across this baby that I just had to add to my collection, a Kimber Stainless Target II 10mm:

http://img224.imageshack.us/img224/6838/kimber10mmgn7.jpg

[ugaarguy]

Very nice Zen! Is that an internal or external extractor model? Let us know how it shoots when you get it to the range.

[Lone_Gunman]

I got one of those when they first came out, and it was a jam-0-matic. I hope you didn't buy my old one.

[MachIVshooter]

Congrats on your new toy. I bought one about a month after thaey hit dealer shelves and I love it.

Is that an internal or external extractor model?

The Kimber 10mm's all have ramped, fully supported barrels and internal extractors.

[10-Ring]

I've been a fan of the 10mm but I just can't deal w/ finding or affording ammo :)

[paddling_man]

New 10mm owner here as well. Not as nice (or pricey) as that Kimber, but I picked up a Tanfoglio 10mm Witness. I've enjoyed the first range visit and am ready for more to come!

I've actually been able to find some affordable ammo at a couple of shops in town and a few steals at the gun show tonight. Not .22 or 9mm prices, but certainly comparable to .45.

Good luck!

Comparable pic... not mine.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v481/paddling_man/guns/Tanfoglio_Witness.jpg

[Snowdog]

Man, do I ever hate feeling envious.

I've been wanting a 10mm 1911 for ages, but never seem to get around to buying one. I've been mulling around the idea of converting a 1911 to .460 Rowland instead, but there's just something about the 10mm that I find attractive (that I can't for the life of me put my finger on).

AMT made a longslide 1911 10mm (dubbed the "Javelin", IIRC) that I had my heart set on. I developed cold feet when I read some accounts of spotty QC in some of the gunrags of the day. Too bad, they stopped making them shortly after.

[pinotguy]

Nice looking pistol Zen. Congrats. Like you, I am a recent 10mm owner - Dan Wesson RZ-10. I love the caliber in the 1911 format - powerful, flat-shooting, with a lot of zip. What ammo have you tried so far?

[TexasRifleman]

I've been a fan of the 10mm but I just can't deal w/ finding or affording ammo

Dude, even Blazer makes a 10mm load. It's really not hard to find at all, and not expensive particularly if you shop around the mail order houses.

I regularly spend a LOT more on ammo for .44 Special and.45 Colt than I do on 10mm.

And to the OP, congrats on your new 10mm. I'm a long time fan myself, here are my Delta and RZ-10.

http://homepage.mac.com/jayc67/1911.jpg

[MCgunner]

I've been a fan of the 10mm but I just can't deal w/ finding or affording ammo

See what you're missin' by not reloading?:D

I'd like a 10, but I see it more as an outdoor round. The platforms available for it are quite heavy (I don't care for Glocks) and the cartridge is of a power level more suited as an outdoor gun, but I prefer revolvers for outdoor guns. I'll always prefer the versatility of the .357 magnum, myself, from rabbits for camp meat to bear defense to deer hunting, just change the load, mild to wild, and it'll "feed" 'em all.

If there's a 10 out there that weighs closer to 30 ounces than 40 and is DA, I'd consider one. But, for carry, frankly, I'm happy with my 9mm and .45ACP.

[Big Gay Al]

Comparable pic... not mine.
Drat, and I was gonna ask where you got those grip panels from.

I've one in .45ACP, but I'm hoping to buy a 10mm conversion kit soon.

This one IS mine.
http://www.albertlowe.com/images/mywitness.jpg

[the pistolero]

a couple days ago I was socializing at my favorite local gunshop when I came across this baby that I just had to add to my collection, a Kimber Stainless Target II 10mm

Very nice gun, Zen. I have one just like it on the way, should be here this week...and I am chompin' at the bit for it to get here, too. :D At the shop I ordered mine from, I saw 180-gr. Remington FMJ at $20 for a box of 50. I don't know of any other local place that stocks it, but then, I haven't looked. I need to start looking for a decent reloading setup as well, but that's another thread...

[paddling_man]

BGA - Mine looks exactly like yours but with the wood grips. I've also got a set of the rubber. EAA still has the wood grips for sale as an accessory item. I think they are around $50.

[RooK]

Add me to the list of Witness owners as well. Here's mine:

http://www.mkiii.org/images/tanfogliobt.jpg

Got a set of Hogues I modified for it. Shooting full-power loads, it's a wonderful jack-of-all trades gun. I've been working up some loads myself, and 200gr XTPs over 800x is fabulous.

I'd love a Dan Wesson or Kimber, but I don't have the budget.

[Lennyjoe]

I'm envious. I would like to have a 10MM 1911 variant some day. Until then, I'll abuse the heck out of my G20-:D

[Zen21Tao]

I've been a fan of the 10mm but I just can't deal w/ finding or affording ammo

How to afford 10mm:

http://img482.imageshack.us/img482/5747/affordable10mmammo2cv6.jpg


A 10mm for a daily concealed carry weapon:

http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/511/10mmconcealedcarrysd6.jpg

And finally, the twin tens:
http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/9607/twintenscl3.jpg

[mljdeckard]

Since we're here,

I understand that most ammo available in 10mm is not the original 'full house' load, but rather the 'lite' load, which is in effect a .40. (I'm too lazy to look up the loading specs.)

DO they sell 10mm full-house, and are most guns set up for it?

[RooK]

Set up for it? Depends on what you mean. Pressure wise? They'd better be, since SAAMI spec is what determines what can be fired in the gun, lite loads or not. For the Glock and Witness, you'll need a 22lb~ recoil spring, and I opted for 10%+ magazine springs as well. The Kimber and Dan Wesson? No idea.

[spartacus2002]

Most factory 10mm is loaded lite, to .40SW performance. The real deal is sold by a few, including these folks http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/index.php

[TexasRifleman]

The Kimber and Dan Wesson? No idea.

My Dan Wesson Razorback pictured above has been on a steady diet of Double Tap 10mm as well as my handloads which are about the same. These are pretty close to the original Norma specs for the load which were :

200gr bullet @ 1200fps
170gr bullet @ 1400fps

The SAAMI spec calls for a max of 53,000 cup, which is way up there.

For comparison sake:

9mm 35,700cup
45ACP 22,000cup
357Mag 46,000cup
44Mag 43,700cup

Double Taps 200gr HP round claims 1250fps, so it's clearly full strength :evil:

[Big Gay Al]

For the Glock and Witness, you'll need a 22lb~ recoil spring, and I opted for 10%+ magazine springs as well. Really? I read somewhere (maybe 10mmtalk.com?) that you would need anything from 18 to 22 lb recoil springs, depending on what you're shooting. In any event, I already bought the recoil springs, now I'm just saving up for the conversion kit.

The way things are going financially though, may not see that until income tax refund time!

[critrxdoc]

Mcgunner: look at the ballistics. Everyone thinks the 10mm overpenetrates for CCW. It is essentially a very hot .357mag. Buffalo Bore makes a .357 load that is essentially equal to Doubletap 10mm rounds. The FBI round was 175gr. They now make 135, 155, 165, etc, etc. The old misconceptions and propaganda need to stop! Yes, at 200-220gr the 10mm is an outdoor weapon. But at <165gr, it makes an awesome self defense weapon. Take a look at the ballistics! It is a .357mag in an semiauto platform. The glock being one of the most versatile at 15+1.:cool: :D :eek:

[Big Gay Al]

I wouldn't call the Glock 10mm the most versatile. The EAA Witness in 10mm also has a capacity of 15+1, for those states that allow that capacity.

I'd call the Witness more versatile. After all, you can buy conversion kits to turn a 10mm Witness into a .45, .40S&W, 9mm or .38Super.

Although, I've heard you can do similar things with a Glock. I just prefer steel to plastic. ;)


But that's just me. :D

[RooK]

Really? I read somewhere (maybe 10mmtalk.com?) that you would need anything from 18 to 22 lb recoil springs, depending on what you're shooting. In any event, I already bought the recoil springs, now I'm just saving up for the conversion kit.

The way things are going financially though, may not see that until income tax refund time!

That's why I put the tilde afterwards to indicate similar weights. Let me say, with full power loads, a 22lb recoil spring, and a cut down ejector, I'm still geting brass flung close to 15 feet. The slide velocity on the Witness is amazing. Plus it likes to unlock early, something a square-back firing pin stop and heavier mainspring would help prevent. Unfortunately the former (and easiest to install without affecting other parts of the gun) isn't available. Anyone out there listening? EGW?

[Big Gay Al]

Rook, how does your Witness seem to be holding up though? Does it show any wear from the heavy 10mm loads? If you're still seeing brass flung 15 feet or so with 22 lb springs, do you think a heavier spring might help? Does anyone make a heavier spring?

[RooK]

It's holding up fine, but I haven't shot that many loads through it yet. Mainly just some workup loads, close to 50 rounds, but not quite. Just for comparison, factory ammo with the stock springs has brass going a further distance and I typically didn't recover much of it.

22lb from Wolff is the max that is offered. They do offer heavier mainsprings though. I'm considering that route in the near future.

[MachIVshooter]

The SAAMI spec calls for a max of 53,000 cup, which is way up there.

For comparison sake:

9mm 35,700cup
45ACP 22,000cup
357Mag 46,000cup
44Mag 43,700cup

These are spec's for the gun's chamber, not the max pressure of the ammo.

SAAMI max for 10mm was 44,000 PSI, modern load data is 37,500. You will not find factory ammo or loading data that exceed this.

That said, the 10mm is the second-highest pressure handgun round commercially loaded. The .454 Casull is first, at 65,000 PSI.

[RooK]

From what I understood, no cup specification exists for the 10mm. Also, very little of the loading data from published sources will even go near 37,500psi. Most stay around 34,000psi and reduce it to 50-100fps over the .40 S&W.

[boomstik45]

Actually, I see the Glock 20 as being close to the versatility ofthe Witness. Both are good guns, although the glock is lighter and also has the smaller concealable version known as the glock 29. And they can share mags (G29 will take G20 mags, not the other way around). Meanwhile, the G20 can be converted by simple drop in barrels to .357 sig and .40 caliber. So, yes the Witness offers more diversity in caliber via conversion kits. Glock offers versatility in other ways. Of course, this does you no good if you insist on steel framed weapons. I've never been a huge fan of conversion kits. Not that they are bad, they just take away an excuse to buy another gun:D .
Between the Witness and Glock however, I think you have two of the best platforms from which to fire the awesome 10mm round. Nothing really against 1911s, but I prefer that in the original cartridge it was designed for: .45acp. As far as what most loadings offered in 10mm amount to, almost all but the Federal Hydrashok are a good bit above the usual .40 ammo. Hornady's 155gr is cruising along at 1265 fps and delivery 550lbs. of energy. Their 180 gr load is about the same energy level at 1180, and the 200 gr is still over 1000 fps fpsWinchester's silvertip is 1290 fps I think. Corbon's stuff is just as hot. The hydrashok is the only pissy loading I've seen. And of course, DoubleTap sells some of the best there is. No, there's nothing mundane about this round and it is undoubtedly above both .40 and .45 ballistically as far as potential. Punches like crazy.

[Hazzard]

Not trying to threadjack, but how is the accuracy of the 10mm witness? I thought about picking one up, but read that the accuaracy wasn't there.

[critrxdoc]

Don't forget in addition to the .40, 357sig, .22, and 9mm conversions, but also the 9X25 dillon. You can also get a 29 round mag. I don't believe you can do that for the Witness. Nothing against steel, but the G-20 rocks. And I did say ONE of the most versatile, but that obviously was not read.:neener:

[nitesite]

I'm a G29 owner and it is my only Glock. Still, for field use I still carry a 4" Model 686 or 4" Model 28 .357 Magnum with heavy boolits. But for concealed carry nothing beats the G29 in my opinion.

(I still keep a 442 that I can just drop in a front pocket - its a compromise in power and firepower, but you can't do that with a G29/20 or a Witness!)

I switched from Silvertips to McNett's Double-Tap 165-gr Gold Dot 10mm load and I am astonished at how mild the recoil is from this compact pistol. Practice load is Georgia Arms 180-gr Gold Dots for now, but reloading is commencing and we'll see where things go from there!

[RooK]

I'll let you know about the Witness' accuracy when I get around to testing for groups. During some informal shooting while working up loads, I did have 3 bullets land within a 2" diameter, shooting offhand @ 15 yards. It has potential, but each gun is different.

boomstick, if I'm not mistaken, the Witness Compacts are made in 10mm, as well as a Compact Polymer. Those magazines should swap with the full size ones just like a Glock. Barrels are also available for cartridge swaps, not just uppers. The main advantage of a Glock is weight and aftermarket, quality barrels in just about any config you want. You can even get your hands on oddball chamberings.

[Big Gay Al]

Don't forget in addition to the .40, 357sig, .22, and 9mm conversions, but also the 9X25 dillon. You can also get a 29 round mag. I don't believe you can do that for the Witness. Nothing against steel, but the G-20 rocks. And I did say ONE of the most versatile, but that obviously was not read.
Actually, you can do quite a bit with the Witness, but you should start with either the .45 or 10mm version, then go from there.

Ok, so I missed a word or two, my bad. :neener:

[MachIVshooter]

Witness more versatile...not a chance
Don't forget in addition to the .40, 357sig, .22, and 9mm conversions, but also the 9X25 dillon. You can also get a 29 round mag. I don't believe you can do that for the Witness

The Witness 10mm can be converted to fire .22 LR, 9x19, 9x21, .38 Super, .40 S&W and .45 ACP with factory conversions. Aftermarket barrels make it possible to use .357 Sig and 9x25 as well. You can also get threaded barrels and 6 inch match barrels, compensators, etc. The Witness is a very flexible gun.

[MCgunner]

Mcgunner: look at the ballistics. Everyone thinks the 10mm overpenetrates for CCW. It is essentially a very hot .357mag. Buffalo Bore makes a .357 load that is essentially equal to Doubletap 10mm rounds. The FBI round was 175gr. They now make 135, 155, 165, etc, etc. The old misconceptions and propaganda need to stop! Yes, at 200-220gr the 10mm is an outdoor weapon. But at <165gr, it makes an awesome self defense weapon. Take a look at the ballistics! It is a .357mag in an semiauto platform. The glock being one of the most versatile at 15+1.

I consider it an outdoor round for two reasons. One, it is capable of doing anything the .357 can do and, two, the guns are so big and heavy, I ain't gonna put one in MY pocket. :rolleyes: I don't even want one in my waist band IWB. It's hot down here in Texas and most of the year I pocket carry. My Ruger P90 ain't small, but it's smaller and lighter (33 ounces) than most 10s. I don't consider the Glock, won't carry a Glock, don't like "safe action", ain't for me. I want a DA or DAO in a carry gun for more than just safety reasons. I want a trigger that approximates my revolvers on the first shot at least. Keeps things simple. Same reason I don't carry SAs, though I do consider SAs condition one a much safer gun to carry than a Glock and have carried one in the past.

The 10 is a very capable round and it's a shame that it's sorta been forgotten. It has more punch for self defense than anything short of the .357 and certainly more than anything in an auto pistol. I suppose, though, an autoloading frame has to be built rather rugged to withstand the pounding of the round, thus the big, heavy handguns in the caliber. It's said by some that the P90 Ruger was originally intended for the round. I guess, with the fall of the 10 in popularity, Ruger converted plans and went with the milder .45. It's a great gun, but it sure would be a cool gun in 10mm. :D I mean, 33 ounces is carryable even if it's a bit of a brick.

[RooK]

I consider it an outdoor round for two reasons. One, it is capable of doing anything the .357 can do and, two, the guns are so big and heavy, I ain't gonna put one in MY pocket. I don't even want one in my waist band IWB. It's hot down here in Texas and most of the year I pocket carry. My Ruger P90 ain't small, but it's smaller and lighter (33 ounces) than most 10s. I don't consider the Glock, won't carry a Glock, don't like "safe action", ain't for me. I want a DA or DAO in a carry gun for more than just safety reasons. I want a trigger that approximates my revolvers on the first shot at least. Keeps things simple. Same reason I don't carry SAs, though I do consider SAs condition one a much safer gun to carry than a Glock and have carried one in the past.

It's capable of doing anything the .357 can, but with more shots on hand and a shorter barrel. The guns are the exact same size as .45s. From 1911s to Glocks, and no one seems to consider most .45s bulky or heavy. It just depends on the gun you choose. Your P90 might be 33 ounces, but my 15 shot Witness is 33 ounces as well, and all steel. Your Ruger is single stack and has an alloy frame, but they're overbuilt for the task at hand. The only thing it might be is thinner. Your other arguments are preference, I carry my Witness cocked and locked.:D

[boomstik45]

Rook,

I didn't know that about the Witness compacts. I'm glad you told me, 'cause I was kinda looking at Witness and then stopped for a while. I know plenty about the glocks, just about all of them, but not as much about the EAA Witness. I know they are solid guns, much like the CZ series of weapons, but I didn't follow up on them enough because shops around here (and lots of places) don't carry them much. Usually, if you see one, it's used and abused. And you know how it goes: if the gun rags aren't touting them as the next best thing or "gun of the year" (which means what? Not much) then the gun places don't keep them around as much. Not to mention they aren't talked about much in the Law Enforcement community (which is what I am) Marketing and sales is what really matters to most of them, as is plain to see in a lot of places: you want a bunch of Sigs, HKs, Glocks, revolvers, and 1911s in the pistol category. Thankyou for giving me fresh insight, I gotta check these out. I still love my certain glocks of course, along with Sigs and Rugers amongst others :D.

[boomstik45]

Most of what MCgunner said IS preference, which is important when choosing a firearm for oneself. Nobody should buy a weapon and carry it because someone else says it's better or has this or that. It's merely something you consider while looking at your options. On the other hand, the most limiting factor just so happens to be preference. If you prefer only a select amount of things, you are limited to a certain amount of options, so a person largely has only him/herself to blame if they aren't satisfied.

I have never considered a Ruger P90 a pocket gun, but if that works for you, then so be it. I prefer IWB to pocket carry for most guns except the smallest I'll carry. It's hot here in south Ga, too. This is one reason I like glocks. Ruger's a great, tough gun, but the trigger pull is less than desireable to me and it's bigger and clunkier than most guns I'd conceal. I'd prefer a Sig 239 if going with a single stack. A 1911 would be good too, or even a Sig 220. But that's just me, I'm a fairly sizable fella and have been known to carry and conceal weapons such as the full size HK USP .45 and the Glock 35 .40 cal. The HK wasn't a whole lot of fun, but I was able to conceal it anyway. The glock 35 is lengthy, but pretty slim comparatively. Draw time wasn't too awful, but not as quick as a glock 30, 29, 19, 23, sig 239, 229, etc. Or CZ P01, now that's a nifty 9mm.

As for the 10mm being an outdoor round, the .357 magnum was being carried by law enforcement for a fairly long time. And that meant in or out of patrol cars and buildings. It doesn't bother me at all. But I do think it's not the smartest thing to carry the ball, wadcutter, or hard-cast cartridges available for either round. Those are mostly meant for hunting, so the "outdoor round" argument certainly has some merit (not that I can judge for anyone but myself). I think it's a matter of what kind of bullet you use. But this is certainly not the gospel...

[Big Gay Al]

For ANYONE interested in the EAA Witness, of any size, I'd recommend you check out Reeds Ammunition & Research (http://www.reedsammo.com/). He carries the Steel frame Witness in both full size and compact, blue and "Wonder" finish. So far as I know, the cost listed for guns on his site, include shipping & handling. Assuming you don't live down the street from him, you'd have make arrangements with a local FFL.

Naturally, I only make this recommendation, if you don't have a dealer that carries the EAA Witness line.

Oh, and I don't get any money for this either. ;)

[Big Gay Al]

I carry my Witness cocked and locked.
Interesting, that's how I carry my Witness also. Then again, I also carry my Taurus PT92 and PT911, cocked and locked. ;)

Let me tell you, I got some funny looks from some of the guys I worked with down in NOLA. Then again, most of them carried Glocks and other plastic wonders.

[jeepmor]

I bought my FS Witness in Wonder Finish from Reeds, good price, good pistol. And his ammo is all fullpower stuff. He sells fullpower reloaded plinking rounds for 13.50 for a box of 50. Latest order was reloaded plinking rounds wrapped Winchester brass.

New rounds are Starline. I had some of the Starline split on second loading below full power spec with Blue Dot. I did not find anything wrong with my loading process to cause it, but I recycled those just for safety even though it was only 4 of roughly 100 rounds. Bad batch of Starline or Reeds fullpower stuff is so stout you only get one firing. Worked flawlessly on the first firing in Reeds defense. Those 1400fps silvertips were a hoot to shoot, big craters in the backstop compared to a .45 or 9mm.

jeepmor

[RooK]

Condition 1 in a Witness is mainly an ergonomic consideration for me, although I prefer a SA trigger anyway and I'm a 1911 fan. My hands are of medium size and DA is a bit of a stretch, but managable. SA is right on. Fit is even better after I ditched the factory grips for the Hogues. If you do shoot DA, polishing the trigger bar lift plunger does wonders. It still stacks awful bad at the end, but other than that it is so smooth and silky now. No grit or anything.

boomstik45, I like oddball guns anyway. My local shop has had to order the past two items I bought, yet they stock several dozen handgun models and even more rifles. I got the Witness last year for $350 NIB, ordered of course.

[boomstik45]

Wow, that's not a bad price at all. Gonna check Reed's out soon.

[boomstik45]

Thanks Al, for the info on Reed's. Forgot to mention that earlier. Perhaps I'll see ya on the other forum...:D

[Big Gay Al]

Perhaps I'll see ya on the other forum.
I'm afraid that's starting to look less and less likely. :(

[RooK]

Al, if a 10mm is out of your price range, why not shoot some .45 Super ammo? You just need to beef it up with the springs like us 10mm guys do. Siesmicsam of the Cz forum has even shot some loads that were hotter than .45 Super specs through his Witness.

I've got an RIA that I'm doing some work on right now (beavertail, etc.) and I'm hoping to get it set up for some Super loads.

[Big Gay Al]

The 10mm conversion is only temporarily out of my price range. Soon as I get another job, it should be no problem at all. ;)

[boomstik45]

Why is that, Al? The other forum going away, or are you dissatisfied with it? You can't let Rockman bother you, you know...LOL.:D :D

[Big Gay Al]

For the most part, that forum is pretty good. But there are some (small minded) people who don't like the avatar that I've used on 4 other forums, with no complaint.

http://www.albertlowe.com/images/95a.gif
They think it's "derogatory." Basically it's a BS reason to "put me in my place."

[Al Robbins]

Looks like you have a real beauty there. That was a great find.
I had just purchased my first 10mm, a Colt Delta ELite and was getting comfortable with it when I stumbled upon a Delta Gold Cup Stainless in 10mm. It was, and has been Love At First Site. Both shoot nice groups, are very reliable and lots of fun to shoot. I reload for them. I am in the process of adding Crimson trace Lasergrips to the Delta Gold - to make it my primary bedside gun.
BTW - I have a Ceiner .22 conversion I use on the Delta Elite and it is 100% reliable and a real tack driver. Great to practice with the cheap .22 ammo in the big gun.
I am sure you will come to love your 10mm. I cannot figure why it never became more popular but now it seems to have a cult following. Count me as a big fan.

[Zen21Tao]

BTW - I have a Ceiner .22 conversion I use on the Delta Elite and it is 100% reliable and a real tack driver. Great to practice with the cheap .22 ammo in the big gun.

I have a .22 Kimber Rimfire Target that has been a great little plinker. In fact, that was a big plus in my decision to buy this Kimber 10mm. They both look almost exactly alike, are the same size, have the same dimensions (through the .22 weighs less) and use the same sights. They really do compliment each other well.

Pic of both (10mm on top / .22lr on bottom):

http://img129.imageshack.us/img129/4313/twinkimbersou7.jpg