[carlrodd]

i was just looking at the .38 vs. 9x18 makarov thread, and it got me thinking about round choice for .38. i searched around a bit on here, but it always seems like ballistics tests are done with longer barrels. for self defense i have a 125gr speer gold dot JHP in my .38. it was recommended by someone...i have no idea what the velocity and energy out of a 2 inch barrel are for this round. any info on that particular round? any better suggestions?

[Headless]

Check this site out. :) All tests were done from a 2" snub.
http://www.handgunsmag.com/ammunition/pocket_dynomite/index.html

[carlrodd]

great article. thanks.

[jibjab]

I use Federal +p 129 gr Hydro-shocks, and Speer Lawman +p 158 grn FMJ flat point. But the Speer +p 135 grn Gold dot ammo designed for a short barrel would be another contender.

[ChristopherG]

The two current, widely available loads that are recognized as best bets in a .38 snub are (in no particular order):

The classic FBI load, the 158 gr lead semi-wadcutter hollow-point, +P, as loaded by either Winchester or Remington (not Federal); or,

The 135 gr. Gold Dot Hollow Point +P by Speer.

If you search and read the maybe 2,000 threads on this subject, you'll see that these are recommended again and again with research and testing to back them up. Other loads come up with such helpful input as, "I carry x," but I assume you're looking for the actual best load, rather than a random poll--and these two are it.

[atlctyslkr]

I like the Federal 129gr JHP +p as well. My mom has an old Smith Airweight snub and we found that Magtech 158gr JHP (non +p) seems to work real well.

[Jkwas]

Magtech 158gr JHP (non +p) seems to work real well
My snub seems to like the 125gn JHP the best. It shoots most brands accurately with minimal recoil. I currently use the Gold dot or Starfire, but any good quality brand should do the job. Even the "non-premium loads" from the major manufacturers loaded to about 950fps will leave one heck of a mark on someone.

[tube_ee]

The two current, widely available loads that are recognized as best bets in a .38 snub are (in no particular order):

The classic FBI load, the 158 gr lead semi-wadcutter hollow-point, +P, as loaded by either Winchester or Remington (not Federal); or,

The 135 gr. Gold Dot Hollow Point +P by Speer.

Given that pretty much every fixed-sight .38 snubbie ever made is sighted for that FBI load, and that it's probably the most real-world-proven short-barrel handgun load ever created, what does the Speer offer to justify it's (assumed) higher price?

Why would you choose the 135 GDHP over the 158 LSWCHP, if you would?

--Shannon

[bpisler]

I use the Black hills 125gr +P's which is loaded
with the gold dot bullet in 38spl.ompared to
the 158gr LSWCHP +P it shoots to POA.It's
faster by 150fps from my 642-2 and it's a lot
easier to reload from speed strips/loaders.

[ChristopherG]

Why would you choose the 135 GDHP over the 158 LSWCHP, if you would?

I don't, myself; I make and carry a version of the LSWCHP +p. But I can think of a couple of reasons one might prefer the Gold Dot.

1) Better terminal performance after penetrating barriers. From tests I've read about, the soft nose of the LSWCHP can get deformed when banging through hard things, whereas the bonded/jacketed Gold Dot has a reputation specifically for performing well through barriers.

2) Bullet creep in a superlight gun. In a 12 oz Airlite, for instance, and in the hands of a particular shooter, the recoil of the FBI load might cause the bullets to jump crimp and grow in OAL to the point that they actualy tie up the gun. The higher friction of the Gold Dot in the case prevents this.
(I shoot an airlite and do not have this problem, but I make and crimp my own LSWCHP's and have tested them thoroughly)

3) Leading. Gold Dots don't lead, the FBI load (typically) does. I don't mind cleaning it up, but some may.

Agreed on the POA/POI issue, still. Most every .38 does shoot the 158's better, IME--but some folks just like lighter bullets, I guess.

ps--bpisler adds another potential reason--reloading speed. Hadn't thought of that one.

[Cosmoline]

Skip the 125 grain plinkers, they're a marketing scam. Go with the classic LSWCHP in 158 grains.

[StrikeEagle]

Given that pretty much every fixed-sight .38 snubbie ever made is sighted for that FBI load, and that it's probably the most real-world-proven short-barrel handgun load ever created, what does the Speer offer to justify it's (assumed) higher price?


This reflects my views as well. I use 158 +P SWCLHP in my 642. For 30+ years this round has been my choice in snubbies, and I used to favor the Winchester loading. But in the last year or so, I've noticed that the Remingtons have more downrange whammy, so I've switched to them.

I just TRUST this full-weight bullet, traveling at decent velocity. The soft lead WILL expand. Heck they deform if you drop them on the sidewalk or give them a really good poke with your thumbnail.

Nothing tricky here, just an older, well-proven design.

Highly recommended. :)

[jad0110]

Darned if they aren't hard to find though.

[MICHAEL T]

The FBI load Its proven time and time again . It works !!!

[Photoman]

Take into consideration which load shoots well in your gun. Any of the top line defense offerings will work well so long as the gun and shooter can shoot the load well.

[ChristopherG]

Any of the top line defense offerings will work well

No; that's the problem; they won't.

A snub .38 is a marginal gun, in terms of getting bullets to function (i.e., expand, which any 'top of the line' load is going to claim to do). Lots of testing and some anecdotal experience shows that, at the low velocities of a .38 snub, most jacketed hollow points do NOT reliably expand. (I would particularly single out the Federal load mentioned by a couple of people above. The whole Federal 'personal defense' line is gutless [i.e., underpowered] and rides on the coattails of an old and gimmicky bullet design. Here's a specific 'top of the line' load that is just flat out a bad choice, once one has all the data.)

Now you COULD say that if you put it in the right place, it will still do it's job, even though it does fail to expand; but in this case, you're admitting that a FMJ would do just as well. So what's the point of using a 'top of the line' load?

The point is that we want to maximize the potency of a tool, the .38 snub, which we acknowledge at the outset is not a powerhouse. The marginality of the tool, however, properly urges us to consider our ammo choices MORE carefully, and that's what carlrodd is trying to do. Handing him uninformed generalities and platitudes about marksmanship is a waste of bandwidth, and could only be considered 'high road' by dint of their regrettable frequency around here.

[jibjab]

good piont Photoman

[weregunner]

Clarify the post on Federal loads being garbage. I have seen no data on this. If there is valid and verifiable data lets see it. This doesn't mean info isn't out there,but I would like to know the source on this. Marksmanship is important with any firearm, so going back over that caveat for reinforcment is viable. Having kept track of real world use of combat loads through Sanow,Marshall,Ayoob,and Spaulding and other sources one can keep up to date on performance in actual use. Not gelatin. Gelatin works up to a point as is confirmed by the author of the mag article. Layers of denim are used for the heavy clothing testing in a lot of tests. People wear heavy clothing made of various other materials. Yes, I realize that JHPs can be plugged by fibers. This is a good start on testing.In depth firing into a medium similar to human flesh also works up only to a point.Recreating the organs and bone in humans has so far escaped cartridge testers abilities. This can skew data.So can the denim test.In several experiments many layers of denim have been used. As dense as denim is too many layers can also skew data. A wide number of rounds,say 20 or more would have to be fired to get a more balanced idea of performance. A few shots are interesting and somewhat enlightning,but no more than that. Someone with the right resources,time,money, and knowledge in ballistics would need to accomplish the project. Since approximation to humans and clothing is all one can get here saying one has solid scientific evidence is hard to back up.Science is built on exact standards. All the factors have to be constant and exact. Not similar. No substitutions or guesses. So actual use is what we have left. Never been attacked by a pan of jello. Have you? Since no one has the monopoly on what makes up the total criteria for the physical as well as mental personal makeup of the person who is shot we have to judge very carefully what works and what doesn't. Even patholigists and scientists can't agree totally on criterea for wounding and its total effects on the body. For instance,no one can completely explain why a martial arts blow will stun or stop someone completely,shutting the body down,for long periods of time.There are some ideas. And some of the factors are understood but not completely. Try to use science to explain what data you don't have or explain. I will stick with 125gr and 158gr JHPs in +P . The track record show these work.Anecdotal evidence won't cut it. I was in the service and know how reliable hearsay is. If someone has corroberated evidence different of something better,I'm open to it.The 158 gr LSWC lead JHP has been shown to work well out of even snubbies due to soft lead and no jacket for the lead to work against in expanding. Use what you like folks. Your life depends on it. Again, nothing is for sure.

[HiWayMan]

I personally carry a 152gr Hardcast full wadcutter. It is a handload, I'll take my chances in court thank you very much, with a BHN of 20 travelling at 920 fps from a 2" barrel. I'm not counting on expansion, only penatration and a .358" hole.

[Photoman]

ChristopherG:
"Handing him uninformed generalities and platitudes about marksmanship is a waste of bandwidth, and could only be considered 'high road' by dint of their regrettable frequency around here."

Sir, you most certainly have an abrasive presentation.

Regarding my reply, marksmanship and training will always be more important than the load selected. Too much time is spent wringing hands over this load or that instead of getting quality training and practice.

Select a quality expanding round and spend the rest of your resources on training and practice. Encouraging good marksmanship is most certainly NOT a waste of bandwidth.

[ChristopherG]

Photoman--Sorry for my harsh tone; it's generally a sign I've been spending too much time on the board.

I take it for granted that someone asking a question like this one already understands that quality hits count and misses don't. My abrasive response arises from the fact that any thread discussing ammunition choice (not an unreasonable kind of discussion to expect to have on a forum like this one) is apparently required to be peppered with reminders of the importance of accuracy that seem blindingly obvious to me.

Perhaps there are people out there who think missing with the right bullet will do something--but I haven't met them.

weregunner, you said about my claim that Fed loads are underpowered,

I would like to know the source on this.

Chronograph some.

[weregunner]

I have seen chronographed Federal at IDPA events and the users wanted to know if their carry loads velocity was as advertised. The Fed 158gr LSWC +P loads were low. However the 38 Specials were in the ballpark as the other brand of 38s were. So was the 9mm. ammo. Granted their were only 5 or 6 loads tested but did not see large deviation from other brands. I have no chronograph or ablity to borrow one. I do keep an eye out for when someone at an event or if a writer does it.Gun Tests, Combat Handguns,and Swat normally can't be accused of fudging numbers.

[Jkwas]

Something to take note of: Make sure you shoot whatever you settle on. I've shot about 15 different types of rounds thru my snub. Some didn't shoot to point of aim, some would be flyers and just disappear, some would tumble and hit the target sideways. All of these were name brands. If you can't hit what your aiming at, you could be shooting uranium tipped bullets, and it won't be any better than lead round nose. :eek:

[weregunner]

Jkwas has a good point. The 158gr. loads whether they were +P or standard pressure loads shoot to almost the same point on the target. There was a shift left or right, but nothing one couldn't compensate for. Remington 158gr SWC lead hollowpoints shoot to perfect center in my snub revolver. The others are just 1 inch or less left or right. The 125gr. +Ps are another story. Those hit several inches lower. So each load has to be range tested to see the impact point. The closer to point of aim,the better. I like the 125 grainers due to less recoil,but the 158gr.rounds are better for the job. Not having to compensate for drift is a big help.

[CornCod]

Being a warrior at heart, I carry full metal jacket in my stainless chief's because any miscreant that messes with me is going to need the protections of the Geneva Convention! :neener:

[sthomper]

http://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_power_chart.htm

the above link claims that a 158g rnl .38spl went through 28.8" of gel?? many more powerful hp bullets penetrated less...according to the chart?

is there such a round??

if so, would a similar .38spl fmj also be a better penetrator that the expanding .38spl hollow points??

ie....more likely to create -entry wound (blood loss) - internal organ damage (passing through organs...blood pressure loss and possible nervous system damage) - exit wound (additional skin wound creating additional blood loss) ??????

do the hp type bullets do something significantly better if they expand fully??

entry wound (blood loss...somwhat larger than a fmj entry wound) - internal organ damage (often displacing more fluid and nicking organs as well as smashing into them) - exit wound (less likely than an fmj) ?????

if they dont expand fully do they perform similar to fmj then??? or is there something in the construction of the hp type bullets that could tend to fragment them , loosing mass more readily...esp through barriers????

[ArchAngelCD]

I carry either the Speer 135gr +P short barrel ammo or more than not the Remington 158gr LSWC/HP +P ammo. (FBI Load) I find the FBI Load to be accurate and reliable even in a short barrel J frame.

[Dave T]

I'm probably going to catch a lot of flack for this but I learned it from some old pistol shooters when I was a young deputy sheriff and many years later saw the wisdom of it when I was teaching civilians handgun self defense as part of CCW certification.

I recommend target wad-cutters in the 2" 38 Specials. They are accurate, mild in recoil and muzzle blast and surprisingly effective at close range. They always cut a .358" size hole, they can be fired very quickly and with more control than any of the +P rounds already discussed. And they are cheep enough (hand loaded or purchased in bulk) that you can practice a lot and you will enjoy the experience. Being able to dump 5 rounds into a small group as fast as you can work the trigger will produce the desired result, much better than a hit and a miss from the hottest round you can stuff into your J-frame.

I had any number of students (older folks, young ladies and women un-familiar with firearms) become quite confident and competent shooting 148g WCs in their 2" five shot revolvers.

As always, YMMV!
Dave

[ATAShooter]

For my S&W 637, I load 158gr Hornady XTP to a velocity of 900 fps thru my chrony.

[Madcap_Magician]

Ayoob recommends the FBI load (158-gr. LSWCHP at +P velocities) by Winchester or Remington, or the NYPD load (Speer GDHP Short Barrel 135-gr. +P). Both have good service records, with the FBI load penetrating further (12-16") and expanding much less (.355-.50 cal.), and the Speer load penetrating less (11-13") but expanding more (.45-65 caliber).

I am also very interested in Winchester's new 130-gr. +P Ranger, which was clearly designed to compete with the Gold Dot load.

[Jonah71]

DaveT...I think I'll give the wad-cutters a try. The old Fed. HS HP's may be a bit much for my old '74 Chiefs Spec. (love that gun) Maybe the wad-cutters will improve my accuracy and not lighten my wallet so much as well. In fact, I think I'll do that now.

[03Shadowbob]

I like the Fiocchi 158gr jhp in my snubs.

[chanroc]

While I'm a huge fan of the FBI Load, I like the 129 gr Federal Nyclads HPs (non +P) out of my S&W 442 Airweight and my Colt Cobra. Sorry, I don't have a chronograph, so I can't give you snub ballistics. Here's the link though - http://www.federalpremium.com/products/details/handgun.aspx?id=828

[wrs840]

I don't have near the experience of most of these guys.

But... I settled on the classic FBI load, the Remington 158 gr lead semi-wadcutter hollow-point, +P based on: (1) Research here and other places. (2) Shooting it and a bunch of other stuff in my two J frame .38s. (3) I can shoot both my 442 1-7/8"bbl and my 637 2-1/2"bbl as well or better with it than anything else I've tried.

Since the OP seems to still be shopping for a gun, and not just a cartridge for it, I'll say I like the 637 2-1/2" better, because I can hit a target considerably better with it at 25 yds, and it still pocket-carries reasonably well.

Les

[ChristopherG]

The OP was searching for a new gun ... 4 years ago.

[wrs840]

Oops...

Good point. :o

Les

[weregunner]

There are those who raise the dead and it isn't Halloween! :what::)

[camsdaddy]

I think this thread is still relative. Also I think its a topic folks are interested in.

[Madcap_Magician]

A number of other rounds don't have the longevity or the benefit of police shooting statistics to back them up, but still seem to have a lot of promise.

Some of those are the 110-gr. +P Cor-Bon DPX, the Hornaday Critical Defense, the Winchester Ranger 130-gr. +P, and some others.

[krazykeny]

Speer Gold Dot.38 Special +P 135 Grain Hollow Point for Short Barrels.

[Chumango]

The Winchester 130 gr +P PDX1 does well in my testing

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=555992